mkl654321
mkl654321
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November 23rd, 2010 at 11:41:18 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No - it's very clear!

If gambling is so truly miserable for some people that they have to go onto a gaming industry or gambling board -

- just to rag on the casinos and its industry workers while addicted ("hooked") on one-armed bandits,

- then they would be better off addressing the issues that are making them (and everyone else!) miserable.

I am serious, such people would find great help and a happier new life there at G.A....



The problem is deeper that that. Jerry needs to go to "People Anonymous" or some such organization for bitter misanthropes. Oh wait--the meetings of that organization would probably be run by people...and there would be other people attending the meeting, all of whom hate people...hmmm...no solution may be possible.

I certainly hope that if ever there opens a completely automated casino on an abandoned military base or deserted island, that Jerry is made aware of such an establishment's existence. Of course, internet casinos offer a similarly misanthropic experience, but maybe Jerry's a law-abiding sort.

I also feel for Jerry, that while ensconced in his fortified basement, screaming at truckers over the radio, he may still encounter some other human beings: an unlucky UPS driver, perhaps, or a Jehovah's Witness (Halloween must have been particularly trying for him; he had to use up his entire stock of gas grenades). Fortunately, there is a solution: decommissioned missile silos. The reinforced concrete and steel trapdoors can ensure that one's contacts with one's fellow humans are as limited, or as nonexistent, as one wants them to be. Especially all them lowlifes.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Paigowdan
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November 23rd, 2010 at 11:47:15 AM permalink
MKL, funny...righteous!

Let him rant at the machines in a silo!

Can be a Sci-Fi flick: "Logan's Run 2: the Silent Rant."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
boymimbo
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November 24th, 2010 at 10:11:58 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Bob,
These are the facts:
a) Some win
b) some break even and have a good time; and
c) some are such sore freakin' losers that they refuse to believe that anyone can have a winning streak, - no less have a good time at a casino, because they're so chagrined at being losers that they cannot stand for anyone else to either win, or have a good time, - so refuse to believe it possible, simply as a weak defense mechanism - as a response to their own losing plight.
These are the facts. Sad but true for some.

Edit: Actually, I AM quite serious about this:
Gambling IS supposed to be a fun, enjoyable pasttime or recreation where gambling is fun and gaming workers are NOT some sort of nefarious enemy or bloodsuckers, but service providers for your fun or rewarding pasttime.
Really now, if you:
a) have had really troublesome gambling loses that
b) have made you really down or miserable or paranoid or suspicious about gaming
c) where you still insist to be involved with it (playing, forums, etc), and
d) gambling is just not working out, and you hate it and its providers,
then yes, have coffee with someone from G.A.

I will say this, and it is indeed appropriate to say it in such circumstances.



What you are missing is that:
- most people lose
- very few break even
- many win.

The gambling "addict" or "problem" gambler is a serious issue. Studies show that 20 to 50 percent of gambling revenue comes from problem gamblers (which account for 1 - 2 percent of the population) -- those who are gambling not for entertainment, but for other reasons.

I think the essence of both Jerry and Bob's comments are true. Casino executives are out to get every last dime out of you AND hope you come back and bring your friends with you. The casino dealer on the other hand who earn their money off tips want you to win so that they get a tip.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
mkl654321
mkl654321
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November 24th, 2010 at 11:10:33 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

What you are missing is that:
- most people lose
- very few break even
- many win.

The gambling "addict" or "problem" gambler is a serious issue. Studies show that 20 to 50 percent of gambling revenue comes from problem gamblers (which account for 1 - 2 percent of the population) -- those who are gambling not for entertainment, but for other reasons.

I think the essence of both Jerry and Bob's comments are true. Casino executives are out to get every last dime out of you AND hope you come back and bring your friends with you. The casino dealer on the other hand who earn their money off tips want you to win so that they get a tip.



How was he "missing" anything? Bob's contention is that nobody ever wins, and nobody is ever ahead. Absurd on the face of it. Your rearranging the respective quantities of winners and losers doesn't obviate paigowdan's point.

Likewise, there may be problem gamblers out there, but so what? There are chronically obese overeaters out there--does that mean that everyone who works at Burger King is evil? Remember, the thread was about whether casino employees are malevolent bastards who want to see you lose. Casino executives might have different motivations than dealers, but you are wrong in any case about what they want to see happen. They want to see you lose a PORTION of your money, and have fun doing it. That's the business model that works best--if they stomp you into the ground, you probably won't come back.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
MathExtremist
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November 24th, 2010 at 11:21:48 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Casino executives might have different motivations than dealers, but you are wrong in any case about what they want to see happen. They want to see you lose a PORTION of your money, and have fun doing it. That's the business model that works best--if they stomp you into the ground, you probably won't come back.



In fact, the most prevalent design goal for slot manufacturers over the past several years has been increased time-on-device. In most cases, the slot floor is nowhere near 100% utilized (that is, all seats full, all players playing max coin as fast as they can.) Given that, it's better to give the players that are there more entertainment value for their dollar. So you'll see things like free spins or long, complicated 2nd-screen bonus rounds (neither of which generate handle) acting as eye-candy to keep players in the seats longer even if they're not betting. With the advent of improved media production, there are now many slot games which play fully-produced video clips between game events. The American Idol game by IGT at the recent G2E is a perfect example - a giant monitor shows a clip of a past-season contestant singing and then being criticized by the judges. The slot players are basically watching TV during that time, not gambling.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paigowdan
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November 24th, 2010 at 2:46:42 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

What you are missing is that:
- most people lose
- very few break even
- many win.

The gambling "addict" or "problem" gambler is a serious issue. Studies show that 20 to 50 percent of gambling revenue comes from problem gamblers (which account for 1 - 2 percent of the population) -- those who are gambling not for entertainment, but for other reasons.

I think the essence of both Jerry and Bob's comments are true. Casino executives are out to get every last dime out of you AND hope you come back and bring your friends with you. The casino dealer on the other hand who earn their money off tips want you to win so that they get a tip.



No, boym, I'm not missing anything.
Casinos provide valid entertainment for the masses, and a small minority are problem gamblers (you say 1-2%) - whose disease is actually their own responsibility to address, (much like a diabetic refusing to take his insulin. All that entails for a problem gambler is going to GA meetings instead of the Lucky Casino and working their program, probably to include staying away from gambling forums such as this site - hint!)

The essence of both Jerry and Bob's comments are patently false, and are clearly based on ignorance of how the gaming industry really works. Gaming industry people who abound at this site have repeatedly stated that your "Blood-sucking hell-on-earth dens of inequity" depictions are really not quite the case.

Casino executives seek to run business operations that has balance and fairness for the customers, obeys our very strict and protective gaming laws, offers a good value, in order to be good corporate neighbors, citizens, and employers - and so provide that good kind of entertainment value that allows people to recognize this value, and attend casino play. If the industry was anything near what you claim, simple market forces would have killed it off ages ago.

This fair business-oriented approach keeps casinos running successfully as entertainment service providers, and as good memebers of the Las Vegas community (Boyd Gaming, Stations, Harrahs, MGM-Mirage, etc.) Haven't seen any mob busts there recently - have you now? Or any "fixed-game" scandals, underage gambling or drinking scaldals, or anything like that there recently, ---Have you??!!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
boymimbo
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November 24th, 2010 at 3:40:33 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No, boym, I'm not missing anything.
Casinos provide valid entertainment for the masses, and a small minority are problem gamblers (you say 1-2%) - whose disease is actually their own responsibility to address, (much like a diabetic refusing to take his insulin. All that entails for a problem gambler is going to GA meetings instead of the Lucky Casino and working their program, probably to include staying away from gambling forums such as this site - hint!)

The essence of both Jerry and Bob's comments are patently false, and are clearly based on ignorance of how the gaming industry really works. Gaming industry people who abound at this site have repeatedly stated that your "Blood-sucking hell-on-earth dens of inequity" depictions are really not quite the case.

Casino executives seek to run business operations that has balance and fairness for the customers, obeys our very strict and protective gaming laws, offers a good value, in order to be good corporate neighbors, citizens, and employers - and so provide that good kind of entertainment value that allows people to recognize this value, and attend casino play. If the industry was anything near what you claim, simple market forces would have killed it off ages ago.

This fair business-oriented approach keeps casinos running successfully as entertainment service providers, and as good memebers of the Las Vegas community (Boyd Gaming, Stations, Harrahs, MGM-Mirage, etc.) Haven't seen any mob busts there recently - have you now? Or any "fixed-game" scandals, underage gambling or drinking scaldals, or anything like that there recently, ---Have you??!!



Let's see: Terry Watanabe. The casino got him so drunk that he parted with close to $200 million. I'm not denying the fact that the casinos are "good members of the community". But let's say for a second that the gene that creates gambling addictions was alterable... suddenly, there were no more gambling addicts. Where would EZ Pai Gow be without the 25 - 50 percent of revenue that wasn't being received because there were no problem gamblers? What would Harrah's look like without Watanabe's 200 million? What would Las Vegas look like without problem gamblers? Chances are that the "problem gamblers" are the people who come to the casino or the slot machine, night after night after night, hoping to hit a streak. They fill a seat (maybe even your seat); they're the definition of "repeat customer", exactly what the casino executive wants. Fair game, absolutely. The government, who receives quite a bit of tax revenue from this problem gambler, turns a blind eye (mostly) to the issue. Problem gamblers, just like alcoholics and drug addicts, destroy lives, businesses, and families, yet creates wealth for the casino and tax revenue for the government. It might be 1-2 percent that are giving casinos up to 1/2 of its revenue, and I may not be a problem gambler, but when I walk into a casino, I recognize that a good percentage of what I am looking at is due to the addict. I'm entertained. I don't really care whether I win or lose, but I recognize the same faces at my local casino that are there all of the time.

I'm not saying that the casino should be responsible for its problem gamblers, or take responsibility for the addiction, but the casino should recognize that alot of their money comes from this segment through providing such an entertaining, fair experience.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Paigowdan
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November 24th, 2010 at 4:24:41 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo


Let's see: Terry Watanabe. The casino got him so drunk that he parted with close to $200 million. I'm not denying the fact that the casinos are "good members of the community". But let's say for a second that the gene that creates gambling addictions was alterable... suddenly, there were no more gambling addicts.


Let's see...Terry Watanabe the millionaire walks into a casino, and proceeds to get shit-faced drunk while taking drugs, losing his ass. [As some reports indicate]. If he had stuck an ignition key into a car in that condition and killed a dozen school kids, would you call him "the victim?" People are responsible for the actions of their own hand, and the excuse of, "Excuse me, officer - I've been drinking..." doesn't cut it. As a dealer, I am sometimes tempted to say, "Why do you keep coming back FOR MORE?!" - but rarely needed. And where I work - AS PER POLICY AT A GAZILLION CASINOS - IF YOU'VE HAD ENOUGH JUICE - YOU'RE DONE FOR THE NIGHT WITH BOOZE. If Harrah's didn't faithfully follow that, then yes, perhaps Mr. Wantanabe is due something of a refund, and I will say that.

Quote: boymimbo

Where would EZ Pai Gow be without the 25 - 50 percent of revenue that wasn't being received because there were no problem gamblers?


EZpg - or any other table game - ain't receiving 50% of its income from problem gamblers. If every problem gambler was in GA, casinos would be doing fine. It receives some, sure, but on its typical $100 buy-in, people leave with $77, on average, for the table's average 23% hold. $23 bucks wound't buy dinner and a movie for two in this day and age, and if they had fun playing it, more power to them. Believe me, I lose not a moment's sleep. For that matter, if I designed a car, and someone drove a model of it drunk, the issue would resolve on the actions of the driver or player. (If I mis-designed a table game as to give it a complulsive crack-cocaine like compulsion to playing it, I would be doing an immoral thing of sorts, but BOY, would my phone be ringing - true.)

Quote: boymimbo

What would Harrah's look like without Watanabe's 200 million?


A lot poorer - and cleaner, more respectable. The question also arises: "How would Mr. Wantanabe act if he acted more soberly during that incident?" A lot more wisely and frugally for his own benefit. They BOTH came off horribly.
Quote: boymimbo

What would Las Vegas look like without problem gamblers?


About the same; the silent lives of the unknown problem gamblers are - both sadly and importantly - things each and every gambler needs to come to terms with, and their contributions to the bottom line are smaller than we think. Now booze and narcotics - something like 90% of that money comes from problem drinkers and addicts. Middle-class healthy people don't sit around bored, and say, "Ya know, honey, instead of dinner and a movie - let's go score some smack or Meth or something!" - but the addicts do indeed - as their main mission in life.

Quote: boymimbo

Chances are that the "problem gamblers" are the people who come to the casino or the slot machine, night after night after night, hoping to hit a streak. They fill a seat (maybe even your seat); they're the definition of "repeat customer", exactly what the casino executive wants. Fair game, absolutely. The government, who receives quite a bit of tax revenue from this problem gambler, turns a blind eye (mostly) to the issue. Problem gamblers, just like alcoholics and drug addicts, destroy lives, businesses, and families, yet creates wealth for the casino and tax revenue for the government.


Yes, they do. However, the vast majority of repeat customers are just regular folk spending a few hours at a casino, sometimes winning, too.

Quote: boymimbo

It might be 1-2 percent that are giving casinos up to 1/2 of its revenue

, No, it isn't
Quote: boymimbo

and I may not be a problem gambler, but when I walk into a casino, I recognize that a good percentage of what I am looking at is due to the addict. I'm entertained. I don't really care whether I win or lose, but I recognize the same faces at my local casino that are there all of the time.


I hope you are not an addictive gambler, truly, as I mean that, as I wish that on no one, and am saddened it is part and parcel of the industry, like liquor having its problem users, etc. When I look at players, I see most just having fun, and I also see the problem addictive players. If you see or "resonate" addiction type feelings from ALL you see playing, do ponder it.

Quote: boymimbo

I'm not saying that the casino should be responsible for its problem gamblers, or take responsibility for the addiction, but the casino should recognize that alot of their money comes from this segment through providing such an entertaining, fair experience.


Some casinos could do a better job on that, very true. Should be as clean as possible 100% of the time.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
rxwine
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November 24th, 2010 at 5:03:43 PM permalink
I thought of this thread when I saw for the umpteenth time a casino employee playing a slot in his off time. (he wants himself to lose I guess).

I don't know that I ever noticed one playing any of the tables at the casinos they work at, but they certainly do play slots and VP at some of them.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Paigowdan
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November 24th, 2010 at 5:12:29 PM permalink
Yes, indeed.
Some casino employees "work for free" - they get off work, and play their paychecks. Not many, but as far as I am concerned - too many.
Dealers cannot play table games at the same property, but they can play slots, poker room poker, and keno.
In the Five years I've worked as a dealer, I've played slots there twice.

However, I used to consistently go to a sister-property to throw some dice or play some Pai Gow for a little while.
Before I was married.
Now I go home and watch HBO or TruTV.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
benbakdoff
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November 25th, 2010 at 4:39:57 AM permalink
Policies vary. At Mohegan Sun and I believe Foxwoods as well, employees can not make any wager. If an employee wants to come on to the property on their own time, they are required to notify the casino of their intent before doing so.
FleaStiff
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November 25th, 2010 at 6:04:01 AM permalink
That is an unusually strict policy. I guess the casino just feels that dealers are prime collusion partners.
Some dealers deal craps for a living and lose their money at a nearby casino's craps tables. Some dealers play poker during off hours.
Some dealers leave the gambling behind entirely.

Some dealers have goals, ambitions, outside interests ... and some dealers are as bad as the fleas of which they constantly complain.
AZDuffman
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November 25th, 2010 at 6:29:37 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

That is an unusually strict policy. I guess the casino just feels that dealers are prime collusion partners.
Some dealers deal craps for a living and lose their money at a nearby casino's craps tables. Some dealers play poker during off hours.
Some dealers leave the gambling behind entirely.

Some dealers have goals, ambitions, outside interests ... and some dealers are as bad as the fleas of which they constantly complain.



I think it is fairly common. In PA dealers must leave the state to play. The thing is this-banning dealers from table games is just good business. It is not that they will collude but the appearance that they could is there. Think of if you have a small business that closes every night and a manager leaves. It is good practice to change the locks no matter how much you trust the person since if something does then go missing the person can be ruled out as a suspect, preserving their reputation.

I have sat in poker games with dealers from a nearby house playing on their day off. I don't see it as a bad thing but rather a person has a job in an atmosphere they enjoy. But if I sit withj a poker dealer at their own house lets say I will consider playing elsewhere next time.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
SanchoPanza
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November 25th, 2010 at 8:02:22 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

On its typical $100 buy-in, people leave with $77, on average, for the table's average 23% hold.


There are not too many of those "typical" $100 buy-ins at $10 minimum tables. Wouldn't last long.
Paigowdan
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November 25th, 2010 at 8:53:09 AM permalink
Yes there are. There are a lot of them, and they've been around for years. Most locals PGP tables (Henderson & non-strip LV) are even $5.
At the Fiesta Henderson, the archtypical Pai Gow buy-in (easily 90% of the time) is "change $100!" Same thing Sunset station, Sam's Town, Arizona Charlies, etc.

Pai Gow poker is considered a "drinking" game because of the frequent pushing.
But that's not the point. Buy in for $10,000, leave with $7,700 for the same 23% hold if you don't want to view it in terms of a $100 buy-in.
The table hold is 23%, not 100%: people typically leave with $77 per $100 and a good time, not with a foreclosed house.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
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November 25th, 2010 at 9:07:14 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff


Some dealers have goals, ambitions, outside interests ... and some dealers are as bad as the fleas of which they constantly complain.


YES, F.S.! So true!
There are dealers who have lives, achieve in life, do good works, paint art, write screenplays, develop new games, etc.

And there are dealers who lose their load on slots, go home, and do nothing by pass out drunk with booze and Oxycontin in front of a flickering television set, then get up just to repeat the process.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
teddys
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November 25th, 2010 at 9:21:52 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

And there are dealers who lose their load on slots, go home, and do nothing by pass out drunk with booze and Oxycontin in front of a flickering television set, then get up just to repeat the process.

Dang, that sounds like the life!
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Paigowdan
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November 25th, 2010 at 9:35:51 AM permalink
Oh, God, it's so sad.
There aren't many, but there are certainly some, and every dealer knows exactly what (whom?) I'm talking about.
These guys go through a process of decline: they look shabby, are a bit foggy, and get noticed and watched by floor supervision, to either shape up or ship out.

With all the gambling under our noses, dealing to and seeing some big winners, the drinks escorted around by some hot cocktail waitresses, the paycheck in hand...."That's gonna be ME at Green Valley/Excalibur/Sam's Town/Arizona Charlies/South Point after work TONIGHT!" Right.....

Go home broke, drink and pass out with the TV and lights on wearing full clothes, - I've woken up some co-workers when they didn't answer their phone: [KNOCK KNOCK] "You okay, buddy?" -"Huh?.....what TIME is it......?"

All single guys - because the wife would have put an END to that shit. Doesn't last long, the Shift manager always knows.....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FleaStiff
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November 25th, 2010 at 10:20:10 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Doesn't last long, the Shift manager always knows.....

I've heard that back in the good old days it was fairly common. One guy got fired one day, hired across the street the next...went back to where he used to work to have a drink ... and tried to tap in on someone despite being in the wrong casino.

When someone dropped a bindle of cocaine on a craps table Benny Binion was only half joking when he said "Book it, at this time of the night every one of my dealers can cover that bet!".

One man woke up, glanced at the clock and seeing he would be late for work phoned in to tell them he was on his way... they simply replied, take your time... and when he arrived, they told him Its okay,,, you are not late, you are eleven and a half hours early.
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