MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
November 13th, 2018 at 4:24:31 PM permalink
The death toll from the recent California wildfires led me to wonder whether there might be a fairly easy way to avoid being burned to death if you are in your dwelling when a wildfire hits.

It occurred to me that a small, pre-built structure, perhaps analogous to a tornado shelter, could be constructed (if deemed effective) and used by those in wildfire country.

Are there fire shelters / fire cellars now in common use, similar to tornado shelters?

If not, why not?
"What, me worry?"
Face
Administrator
Face
  • Threads: 49
  • Posts: 4448
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
November 13th, 2018 at 4:37:18 PM permalink
A hobbit hole would keep you physically safe, but how to breathe? I imagine such a filtration system to turn fire into fresh air is probably cost prohibitive.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
gordonm888
Administrator
gordonm888
  • Threads: 60
  • Posts: 5005
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
November 13th, 2018 at 4:51:48 PM permalink
Quote: Face

A hobbit hole would keep you physically safe, but how to breathe? I imagine such a filtration system to turn fire into fresh air is probably cost prohibitive.



I agree. Actually, you would need a cooling system to cool the air and you would want to filter out the combustion products.
That would take electric power, so you would need a generator located in a place that wouldn't burn or be overheated by the fire -maybe down in the ground with you. But generators turn out waste heat! I think there are a lot of practical problems.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
November 13th, 2018 at 4:59:08 PM permalink
The smoke jumpers carry special reflective small tents/large sleeping bags with them. I know there are some who have used them and survived. But there was also that group who got trapped in Oregon, a unit from Arizona I think, and all 22 burned alive despite using their bags. So maybe the bags are not a great solution.

It does seem like there should be a way. I guess the biggest thing is oxygen is flammable/explosive, so how do you protect your supply with the extreme heat? How do you vent or scrub your CO2? it would have to resemble a space capsule, but buried well underground.

Edit: I remembered the facts wrong, or I think I confused it with another large firefighter loss about 20 years ago.

Yarnell Hill fire 2013, in Arizona, 19 Prescott City firefighters killed. RIP and sorry.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarnell_Hill_Fire

And this is the Oregon tragedy from 1994:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.oregonlive.com/wildfires/index.ssf/2014/07/prineville_hotshots_revisiting.amp
Last edited by: beachbumbabs on Nov 13, 2018
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 3540
Joined: Dec 28, 2014
November 13th, 2018 at 5:47:00 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

The smoke jumpers carry special reflective small tents/large sleeping bags with them. I know there are some who have used them and survived. But there was also that group who got trapped in Oregon, a unit from Arizona I think, and all 22 burned alive despite using their bags. So maybe the bags are not a great solution.

It does seem like there should be a way. I guess the biggest thing is oxygen is flammable/explosive, so how do you protect your supply with the extreme heat? How do you vent or scrub your CO2? it would have to resemble a space capsule, but buried well underground.


They are a complete last ditch effort to survive.



What a terrible way to die.

There’s a reason Wildland firefighters make well into the 6-figures for a few months work.
RogerKint
RogerKint
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 1916
Joined: Dec 5, 2011
November 13th, 2018 at 6:08:34 PM permalink
Having had to evacuate due to a wildfire I can say it's a feeling of anger and frustration along with the fear. You have all this money taken from you and told that you'll be protected except you're not and you won't be. We can ride dune buggies on the moon (LOL) but can't put out a damn fire.

100% risk of ruin
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
November 13th, 2018 at 6:42:09 PM permalink
I hadn't considered the oxygen issue; I wonder how long an area stays "really hot" when hit by a wildfire?

Obviously the amount of time will vary, but it seems to me that fire hits, burns and moves on, and when it's moved on the temp should go way down.

So if there is usually a five to ten minute period of dangerous oxygen that's one thing, but a half hour to a couple hours would be another thing entirely.

I contemplated a hole in the ground, a fireproof cover / door, and a decent respirator.
"What, me worry?"
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 13th, 2018 at 7:23:30 PM permalink
I've wondered about this too. What about jumping into a swimming pool with a good quality dust mask?

However, what if you're in a car and there is no swimming pool around and the road is blocked? That, I just don't know. Sometimes when I'm surfing around I catch a show about what to do in certain emergencies and natural disasters, but I haven't seen one addressed about fire yet.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 13th, 2018 at 10:33:56 PM permalink
You can buy a safe that will withstand hours in a fire. I don't see why a fireproof vault isn't possible.
I believe a scuba equipped person in a cement pool would survive, although I have no idea how hot the water might get.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
November 13th, 2018 at 11:33:10 PM permalink
My thought was to have the earth itself serve to insulate and to protect the home owner: make it a hole in the ground, sort of like a small tornado storm cellar.

Fire won't burn the ground, and a proper, reflective fireproof entry door probably could be developed such that most heat is kept out.

It could be a great way for an inventive fellow to get rich, designing, patenting, manufacturing and selling these to Californians and others out west who live in areas prone to wildfire.

Probably a scuba-type breathing arrangement could be implemented, if shown to be necessary.
"What, me worry?"
gordonm888
Administrator
gordonm888
  • Threads: 60
  • Posts: 5005
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
November 13th, 2018 at 11:40:58 PM permalink
Yeah, the main issue is heat. "Fireproof Vault" doesn't mean that the things inside won't get hot over time, just that the vault will not melt or burn.

The way to defeat heat from a fire is by using something that has a lot of thermal inertia. Swimming pools will be good for a while, but they will heat up gradually (and gradually evaporate). That would be a painful way to die.

The ground would be best but the cave/hole/bunker would need to be deep if the fire persisted for 1/2 day or longer. One of the earliest forms of ovens, before metal, was to bury your food and then build a fire on top of it. That was sufficient to cook meat. You would obviously want to dig deeper, I would want a depth of 10 feet or more.

And of course, suffocation is an issue both when you are buried and when you are surrounded by fire. Oxygen tanks would be okay as long as the tank is kept cool. In fact, as the ground heated up you would probably die at lower temperatures than would be required for an oxygen tank to overpressurize and explode.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
MaxPen
MaxPen
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 3634
Joined: Feb 4, 2015
November 13th, 2018 at 11:44:00 PM permalink
There's a company that sells bunkers marketed for that purpose. Think it's BushBunker or something like that. concrete bunkers would make adequate shelters to survive a wildfire provided it is in the earth. You would have to cutoff outside air during the inferno so you need a way to tell when it has passed.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22272
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
gordonm888
November 14th, 2018 at 12:32:49 AM permalink
What about a vehicle that could withstand the heat and supply enough oxygen long enough to assure you can get to safety?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
RS
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 8626
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
November 14th, 2018 at 1:23:23 AM permalink
Oxygen/CO2 shouldn't be a problem in an airtight bunker, unless it's like the size of a coffin or the fire is going to be burning above you for a long ass time.


What about a storm/sewer drain? Or whatever those things are in the center of the road you see sometimes or near the sidewalk where all the running water drops into? Roads don't burn and should be far enough away so that smoke isn't an issue. Idk what it's like down there and if it's all nasty and stuff, but it doesn't seem like the water drainage areas would be nasty, idk I've never been in one.
GWAE
GWAE
  • Threads: 93
  • Posts: 9854
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
November 14th, 2018 at 2:16:39 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Oxygen/CO2 shouldn't be a problem in an airtight bunker, unless it's like the size of a coffin or the fire is going to be burning above you for a long ass time.


What about a storm/sewer drain? Or whatever those things are in the center of the road you see sometimes or near the sidewalk where all the running water drops into? Roads don't burn and should be far enough away so that smoke isn't an issue. Idk what it's like down there and if it's all nasty and stuff, but it doesn't seem like the water drainage areas would be nasty, idk I've never been in one.



Lmao, you need to get out of vegas for a bit. See some trees, some snow, maybe some of them fancy storm sewers.

Storm sewers are not what you envision from teenage mutant ninja turtles. The pipes are usually about 3 to 4 feet round and no lights. Probably even smaller where these fires are since rain does not happen often.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
RS
RS
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 8626
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
November 14th, 2018 at 2:25:03 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Lmao, you need to get out of vegas for a bit. See some trees, some snow, maybe some of them fancy storm sewers.

Storm sewers are not what you envision from teenage mutant ninja turtles. The pipes are usually about 3 to 4 feet round and no lights. Probably even smaller where these fires are since rain does not happen often.


I think I'd rather take my chances in a 3-4 food wide storm sewer than trying to scuba dive in my pool or trying to build some contraption where I'd end up dying of smoke inhalation. Regardless, I'm pretty sure the drainage areas off of a sidewalk are larger than that and can fit at least a few people in there. I'm talking about something like this:

billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 14th, 2018 at 2:43:55 AM permalink
If you have a finished basement and an attached garage, you have a great start. Knock down a section of the wall closest to the garage. You can excavate under the garage so you have a cement roof, and earthen walls. Now all you need is a fireproof vault door and an air filtration system. If you have millions to buy a house, it's something you can afford.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
redlion84
redlion84
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 14, 2018
November 14th, 2018 at 4:58:30 AM permalink
Praying for those affected by the fire.
Face
Administrator
Face
  • Threads: 49
  • Posts: 4448
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
Thanked by
beachbumbabs
November 14th, 2018 at 6:21:30 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888


The ground would be best but the cave/hole/bunker would need to be deep if the fire persisted for 1/2 day or longer. One of the earliest forms of ovens, before metal, was to bury your food and then build a fire on top of it. That was sufficient to cook meat. You would obviously want to dig deeper, I would want a depth of 10 feet or more.



Old world earth ovens have the most minimal of material between the heat and the meat, traditionally but a layer of green veg. They work so well because the ground is such a good insulator; you can cook a whole pig with just a few pounds of coals. Next time you have a fire, clear the ash and turn the soil. 2" down ain't nothing but warm mud, easily handled. Just look at fire jumper's emergency pits, t'ain't nothing but a foil tarp over a roadside ditch.


You can get a short bus for like $1,500. Buy one, dig a hole, drive in, fill the hole. Take about 40hrs for one man with a shovel. Mg is like $2.50 a lb, or you can just salvage from engine parts and sports car wheels. Toss a couple chunks into a tub of H2O2 (~$0.35 p/gal) and it'll bubble out some pure O2. 3M respirator runs about $30 with filters for any particulate breach....other than the bus the biggest cost will be jerky, which is like $6 a lb or some ridiculous mess. Fire survival in one week for under $2k.

The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11596
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
November 14th, 2018 at 7:00:55 AM permalink
Quote: Face

..other than the bus the biggest cost will be jerky, which is like $6 a lb or some ridiculous mess.



Where do you get jerky for $6 a pound? I will buy lots of it.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Face
Administrator
Face
  • Threads: 49
  • Posts: 4448
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
November 14th, 2018 at 7:08:27 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Where do you get jerky for $6 a pound? I will buy lots of it.




Holy s@#$…. what happened to jerky? Trump tariffs? I guess what I thought was a pound was really 4oz.

Thanks, Obama.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
November 14th, 2018 at 8:00:18 AM permalink
The real problem is we try to 'freeze' nature, so forests do not transition but are kept as profitable for timber companies, recreation, etc. We put out fires that would thin the underbrush.

Australia has so mismanaged its environment it has devastating fire seasons with winds and flames so hot gas tanks and tires explode and 'safety rooms' in rural taverns can become mass graves with warm beer.
Look at Greece and New Zealand where fires have burned right to the edge of a river/ake/sea and have incinerated hundreds who thought they would be safe in rivers, pools, lakes.

Look at saf3ty shelter for rural fire in Australia where the fire takes theoxygen right out bomb shelters as it wouldin a tornado.
gordonm888
Administrator
gordonm888
  • Threads: 60
  • Posts: 5005
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
November 14th, 2018 at 9:20:13 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

What about a vehicle that could withstand the heat and supply enough oxygen long enough to assure you can get to safety?



Bingo.

"Sheltering in place" is a good strategy for managing some situations (especially if you are in bed with Megan Fox) but with a fire, I'd rather get in an SUV and drive like hell.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 14th, 2018 at 9:32:04 AM permalink
If you can be sure of getting away, but how can you be sure of road conditions in a firestorm?
The obvious answer, to me, is not to live where fire is an imminent danger.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
November 14th, 2018 at 9:51:40 AM permalink
Of course, but if you choose to live in a fire-prone area, it would make sense to try to be prepared for "the worst."
"What, me worry?"
billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 14th, 2018 at 11:08:43 AM permalink
I have a friend whose family owns a house on Dune Road in The Hamptons. His granddad built it in the late 1950s and it has been completely destroyed several times and damaged countless other times. Every few years, a storm wipes out Dune Rd and the Federal Government spends a fortune rebuilding it, dredging sand for the beach and subsidizing the home rebuilding thru Federal Flood Insurance. Hundreds of millions of dollars wasted to protect a couple hundred multi- millionaires.

If it were a slum that was wiped out, the government wouldn't rebuild it , but rich folks rightfully love their oceans. While I support peoples rights to live where they want, I don't think the public should pick up the tab for rebuilding these homes.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
  • Threads: 56
  • Posts: 1443
Joined: May 3, 2016
November 14th, 2018 at 11:09:39 AM permalink
The bigger question is why isnt every single house in a wildfire zone or even a hurricane or tornado zone not completely built out of concrete as well as having a basement? It should be state mandated. No need for windows either. Concrete roof, concrete doors, concrete everything. There you go. Just saved everyone as well as their belongings. If a wildire breaks out just run into your basement in your fireproof concrete house.

Thank me later.

P.S. dont forget to turn on your concrete sprinklers before you go in.
Last edited by: ZenKinG on Nov 14, 2018
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
  • Threads: 30
  • Posts: 2549
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
November 14th, 2018 at 11:29:39 AM permalink
Quote: Face


You can get a short bus for like $1,500.



Safety from a fire and a nostalgic trip to childhood all in one!
GWAE
GWAE
  • Threads: 93
  • Posts: 9854
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
Thanked by
RogerKint
November 14th, 2018 at 12:57:37 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

I have a friend whose family owns a house on Dune Road in The Hamptons. His granddad built it in the late 1950s and it has been completely destroyed several times and damaged countless other times. Every few years, a storm wipes out Dune Rd and the Federal Government spends a fortune rebuilding it, dredging sand for the beach and subsidizing the home rebuilding thru Federal Flood Insurance. Hundreds of millions of dollars wasted to protect a couple hundred multi- millionaires.

If it were a slum that was wiped out, the government wouldn't rebuild it , but rich folks rightfully love their oceans. While I support peoples rights to live where they want, I don't think the public should pick up the tab for rebuilding these homes.



Billy you must have lived an interesting life. You have a relative or friend that lives in every scenario possible.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
GWAE
GWAE
  • Threads: 93
  • Posts: 9854
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
November 14th, 2018 at 1:00:55 PM permalink
Funny that you all mention going into a pool. On the news today they were standing around an inground pool fishing something out. I kinda presume it was a body. The pool water looked like mud. I wonder how hot it was in there with all the ash that was in it
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 14th, 2018 at 1:05:36 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Billy you must have lived an interesting life. You have a relative or friend that lives in every scenario possible.



Here is a short article on Dune Road. It's among the most expensive real estate in the country.
www.27east.com/news/article.cfm/Hampton-Bays/75563/
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
MaxPen
MaxPen
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 3634
Joined: Feb 4, 2015
Thanked by
RogerKintFleaStiff
November 14th, 2018 at 1:37:51 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Billy you must have lived an interesting life. You have a relative or friend that lives in every scenario possible.



Probably due to owning every type of business known to mankind. ;-)
I've been told you meet a lot of people in business.
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 3577
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
Thanked by
Johnzimbo
November 14th, 2018 at 1:55:03 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Billy you must have lived an interesting life. You have a relative or friend that lives in every scenario possible.



Billy is evenbob now?
  • Jump to: