It occurred to me that a small, pre-built structure, perhaps analogous to a tornado shelter, could be constructed (if deemed effective) and used by those in wildfire country.
Are there fire shelters / fire cellars now in common use, similar to tornado shelters?
If not, why not?
Quote: FaceA hobbit hole would keep you physically safe, but how to breathe? I imagine such a filtration system to turn fire into fresh air is probably cost prohibitive.
I agree. Actually, you would need a cooling system to cool the air and you would want to filter out the combustion products.
That would take electric power, so you would need a generator located in a place that wouldn't burn or be overheated by the fire -maybe down in the ground with you. But generators turn out waste heat! I think there are a lot of practical problems.
It does seem like there should be a way. I guess the biggest thing is oxygen is flammable/explosive, so how do you protect your supply with the extreme heat? How do you vent or scrub your CO2? it would have to resemble a space capsule, but buried well underground.
Edit: I remembered the facts wrong, or I think I confused it with another large firefighter loss about 20 years ago.
Yarnell Hill fire 2013, in Arizona, 19 Prescott City firefighters killed. RIP and sorry.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarnell_Hill_Fire
And this is the Oregon tragedy from 1994:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.oregonlive.com/wildfires/index.ssf/2014/07/prineville_hotshots_revisiting.amp
Quote: beachbumbabsThe smoke jumpers carry special reflective small tents/large sleeping bags with them. I know there are some who have used them and survived. But there was also that group who got trapped in Oregon, a unit from Arizona I think, and all 22 burned alive despite using their bags. So maybe the bags are not a great solution.
It does seem like there should be a way. I guess the biggest thing is oxygen is flammable/explosive, so how do you protect your supply with the extreme heat? How do you vent or scrub your CO2? it would have to resemble a space capsule, but buried well underground.
They are a complete last ditch effort to survive.
What a terrible way to die.
There’s a reason Wildland firefighters make well into the 6-figures for a few months work.
Obviously the amount of time will vary, but it seems to me that fire hits, burns and moves on, and when it's moved on the temp should go way down.
So if there is usually a five to ten minute period of dangerous oxygen that's one thing, but a half hour to a couple hours would be another thing entirely.
I contemplated a hole in the ground, a fireproof cover / door, and a decent respirator.
However, what if you're in a car and there is no swimming pool around and the road is blocked? That, I just don't know. Sometimes when I'm surfing around I catch a show about what to do in certain emergencies and natural disasters, but I haven't seen one addressed about fire yet.
I believe a scuba equipped person in a cement pool would survive, although I have no idea how hot the water might get.
Fire won't burn the ground, and a proper, reflective fireproof entry door probably could be developed such that most heat is kept out.
It could be a great way for an inventive fellow to get rich, designing, patenting, manufacturing and selling these to Californians and others out west who live in areas prone to wildfire.
Probably a scuba-type breathing arrangement could be implemented, if shown to be necessary.
The way to defeat heat from a fire is by using something that has a lot of thermal inertia. Swimming pools will be good for a while, but they will heat up gradually (and gradually evaporate). That would be a painful way to die.
The ground would be best but the cave/hole/bunker would need to be deep if the fire persisted for 1/2 day or longer. One of the earliest forms of ovens, before metal, was to bury your food and then build a fire on top of it. That was sufficient to cook meat. You would obviously want to dig deeper, I would want a depth of 10 feet or more.
And of course, suffocation is an issue both when you are buried and when you are surrounded by fire. Oxygen tanks would be okay as long as the tank is kept cool. In fact, as the ground heated up you would probably die at lower temperatures than would be required for an oxygen tank to overpressurize and explode.
What about a storm/sewer drain? Or whatever those things are in the center of the road you see sometimes or near the sidewalk where all the running water drops into? Roads don't burn and should be far enough away so that smoke isn't an issue. Idk what it's like down there and if it's all nasty and stuff, but it doesn't seem like the water drainage areas would be nasty, idk I've never been in one.
Quote: RSOxygen/CO2 shouldn't be a problem in an airtight bunker, unless it's like the size of a coffin or the fire is going to be burning above you for a long ass time.
What about a storm/sewer drain? Or whatever those things are in the center of the road you see sometimes or near the sidewalk where all the running water drops into? Roads don't burn and should be far enough away so that smoke isn't an issue. Idk what it's like down there and if it's all nasty and stuff, but it doesn't seem like the water drainage areas would be nasty, idk I've never been in one.
Lmao, you need to get out of vegas for a bit. See some trees, some snow, maybe some of them fancy storm sewers.
Storm sewers are not what you envision from teenage mutant ninja turtles. The pipes are usually about 3 to 4 feet round and no lights. Probably even smaller where these fires are since rain does not happen often.
Quote: GWAELmao, you need to get out of vegas for a bit. See some trees, some snow, maybe some of them fancy storm sewers.
Storm sewers are not what you envision from teenage mutant ninja turtles. The pipes are usually about 3 to 4 feet round and no lights. Probably even smaller where these fires are since rain does not happen often.
I think I'd rather take my chances in a 3-4 food wide storm sewer than trying to scuba dive in my pool or trying to build some contraption where I'd end up dying of smoke inhalation. Regardless, I'm pretty sure the drainage areas off of a sidewalk are larger than that and can fit at least a few people in there. I'm talking about something like this:
Quote: gordonm888
The ground would be best but the cave/hole/bunker would need to be deep if the fire persisted for 1/2 day or longer. One of the earliest forms of ovens, before metal, was to bury your food and then build a fire on top of it. That was sufficient to cook meat. You would obviously want to dig deeper, I would want a depth of 10 feet or more.
Old world earth ovens have the most minimal of material between the heat and the meat, traditionally but a layer of green veg. They work so well because the ground is such a good insulator; you can cook a whole pig with just a few pounds of coals. Next time you have a fire, clear the ash and turn the soil. 2" down ain't nothing but warm mud, easily handled. Just look at fire jumper's emergency pits, t'ain't nothing but a foil tarp over a roadside ditch.
You can get a short bus for like $1,500. Buy one, dig a hole, drive in, fill the hole. Take about 40hrs for one man with a shovel. Mg is like $2.50 a lb, or you can just salvage from engine parts and sports car wheels. Toss a couple chunks into a tub of H2O2 (~$0.35 p/gal) and it'll bubble out some pure O2. 3M respirator runs about $30 with filters for any particulate breach....other than the bus the biggest cost will be jerky, which is like $6 a lb or some ridiculous mess. Fire survival in one week for under $2k.
Quote: Face..other than the bus the biggest cost will be jerky, which is like $6 a lb or some ridiculous mess.
Where do you get jerky for $6 a pound? I will buy lots of it.
Quote: DRichWhere do you get jerky for $6 a pound? I will buy lots of it.
Holy s@#$…. what happened to jerky? Trump tariffs? I guess what I thought was a pound was really 4oz.
Thanks, Obama.
Australia has so mismanaged its environment it has devastating fire seasons with winds and flames so hot gas tanks and tires explode and 'safety rooms' in rural taverns can become mass graves with warm beer.
Look at Greece and New Zealand where fires have burned right to the edge of a river/ake/sea and have incinerated hundreds who thought they would be safe in rivers, pools, lakes.
Look at saf3ty shelter for rural fire in Australia where the fire takes theoxygen right out bomb shelters as it wouldin a tornado.
Quote: AxelWolfWhat about a vehicle that could withstand the heat and supply enough oxygen long enough to assure you can get to safety?
Bingo.
"Sheltering in place" is a good strategy for managing some situations (especially if you are in bed with Megan Fox) but with a fire, I'd rather get in an SUV and drive like hell.
The obvious answer, to me, is not to live where fire is an imminent danger.
If it were a slum that was wiped out, the government wouldn't rebuild it , but rich folks rightfully love their oceans. While I support peoples rights to live where they want, I don't think the public should pick up the tab for rebuilding these homes.
Thank me later.
P.S. dont forget to turn on your concrete sprinklers before you go in.
Quote: Face
You can get a short bus for like $1,500.
Safety from a fire and a nostalgic trip to childhood all in one!
Quote: billryanI have a friend whose family owns a house on Dune Road in The Hamptons. His granddad built it in the late 1950s and it has been completely destroyed several times and damaged countless other times. Every few years, a storm wipes out Dune Rd and the Federal Government spends a fortune rebuilding it, dredging sand for the beach and subsidizing the home rebuilding thru Federal Flood Insurance. Hundreds of millions of dollars wasted to protect a couple hundred multi- millionaires.
If it were a slum that was wiped out, the government wouldn't rebuild it , but rich folks rightfully love their oceans. While I support peoples rights to live where they want, I don't think the public should pick up the tab for rebuilding these homes.
Billy you must have lived an interesting life. You have a relative or friend that lives in every scenario possible.
Quote: GWAEBilly you must have lived an interesting life. You have a relative or friend that lives in every scenario possible.
Here is a short article on Dune Road. It's among the most expensive real estate in the country.
www.27east.com/news/article.cfm/Hampton-Bays/75563/
Quote: GWAEBilly you must have lived an interesting life. You have a relative or friend that lives in every scenario possible.
Probably due to owning every type of business known to mankind. ;-)
I've been told you meet a lot of people in business.
Quote: GWAEBilly you must have lived an interesting life. You have a relative or friend that lives in every scenario possible.
Billy is evenbob now?