Poll

8 votes (28.57%)
14 votes (50%)
1 vote (3.57%)
1 vote (3.57%)
12 votes (42.85%)

28 members have voted

pacomartin
pacomartin
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October 21st, 2010 at 11:34:13 AM permalink
You can vote for more than one choice, they are not mutually exclusive.

Juan Williams is a noted black author (born in Panama: hence the first name) and a contractor to NPR who made the following comment on Fox News Bill O'Reilly show. Somewhat ironically, he is often invited to Bill O'Reilly's show to represent the liberal point of view in contrast to Bill's conservative viewpoint.

Political correctness can lead to some kind of paralysis where you don't address reality. I mean, look Bill [O'Reilly], I'm not a bigot, you know the kind of books I've written on the civil rights movement in this country, but when I get on a plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous.

According to NPR, the remarks were "inconsistent with our editorial standards and practices, and undermined his credibility as a news analyst with NPR." They responded with an immediate firing.

CAIR: Council on American-Islamic Relations wrote a letter to NPR protesting Juan Williams comments and some people are criticising their call for punishment.

Juan is a frequent writer about issues affecting black America.
Williams, Juan (1988). Eyes on the Prize: America's Civil Rights Years, 1954-1965. Penguin (Non-Classics). ISBN 0140096531.
Williams, Juan (2000). Thurgood Marshall: American Revolutionary. Three Rivers Press. ISBN 0812932994.
Williams, Juan (2003). This Far by Faith: Stories from the African American Religious Experience. Harper Paperbacks. ISBN 0060934247.
Williams, Juan (2004). I'll Find a Way or Make One : A Tribute to Historically Black Colleges and Universities. HarperCollins. ISBN 0060094532.
Williams, Juan (2005). My Soul Looks Back in Wonder: Voices of the Civil Rights Experience. Sterling. ISBN 1402722338.
Williams, Juan (2006). Black Farmers in America. The University Press of Kentucky. ISBN 0813123992.
Williams, Juan (2007). The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America--and What We Can Do About It. Three Rivers Press. ISBN 030733824X.
mkl654321
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October 21st, 2010 at 11:47:08 AM permalink
NPR's reaction is asinine for a number of reasons. Political correctness has mutated to the point where it stifles freedom of speech. If Muslims make Williams nervous, he has the right to say that. For what it's worth, I think if any one of a majority of Americans boarded a transcontinental flight and saw thirty passengers wearing dishdashas, he just might get an "emergency call" on his cell phone and dash back out the gate. Maybe it's "racial profiling" (actually, "cultural profiling") to react that way. So bloody what? We are all entitled to form our own "threat matrix", and it's not against the law (yet) for that matrix to not be 100% rational or justified.

Here's my Bill of Rights re articulating my views on any group/class/bunch/nation/ethnicity/profession/color/flavor/species/tribe/band/etc.:

I have the right to like or dislike anyone I want.
I have the right to articulate the reason for that like or dislike, or just the simple fact of that like or dislike, as long as what I say does not incite anger at (or dislike of) that person or group.
I do not have to justify my likes or dislikes (of anything or anybody) to anyone, or prove them on "rational" grounds.
You have the same rights as I do.
A person should not be deprived of his job or livelihood simply because he articulates opinions that others may find distasteful.

By the way, I LOATHE left-handed albino dentists.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
pacomartin
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October 21st, 2010 at 12:08:45 PM permalink
NPR is defending their decision to fire Juan by saying that it is against policy to express personal opinions on the talk shows since it undermines their credibility as a journalist.

The counter argument is a TV clip of NPR’s Nina Totenberg telling the host of PBS’s Inside Washington that if there was “retributive justice” in the world Jesse Helms would “get AIDS from a transfusion, or one of his grandchildren will get it.”

Totenberg is still NPR’s legal affairs correspondent despite her voicing what has to be called a personal opinion.

The Fox news channel is finding themselves vociferously defending a very liberal man. I thought that one reporter was going to wrestle the spokesman from CAIR to the ground during her interview.

It should be noted that Juan Williams previously got in trouble for the following statement made about the first lady.

Michelle Obama, you know, she's got this Stokely Carmichael in a designer dress thing going. If she starts talking, as Mary Katharine is suggesting, her instinct is to start with this blame America, you know, I'm the victim. If that stuff starts coming out, people will go bananas and she'll go from being the new Jackie O to being something of an albatross.

By any objective measures Juan Williams is not a bigot, but he is given to colorful speech.

Mary Katehrine Ham appears regularly on Bill O'Reilly's Fox News program, The O'Reilly Factor, usually with Juan Williams. She describes her political leaning as "primarily fiscal- and security-conscious conservative". Mary is a 30 year old white woman.
JerryLogan
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October 21st, 2010 at 12:46:27 PM permalink
What a bunch of BS for firing the guy. Anybody knows that if you're on a flight and on comes a few Osama look-alikes, you're gonna be nervous and staring just like the rest of the passengers. NO MATTER WHO OR WHAT YOU ARE! I'd just as soon they have their own Muslim-Allah airline to fly on. So the guy said what he and many others, especially liberals, feel. Big deal. Now Fox will hire him and he'll be seen and heard even more, and he'll make a lot more money. And NPR didn't can Williams for political correctness. They're afraid one of the millions of nutjob Muslims is going to attack them.
Keyser
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October 21st, 2010 at 12:55:18 PM permalink
We are losing our free speech. The liberals have got to go.
pacomartin
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October 21st, 2010 at 1:08:25 PM permalink
Nina Totenberg AIDS comment really undercuts the NPR argument that giving personal opinions is a firable offense. Now they have to prove that their policy changed in the last 15 years.

Part of the problem with this particular quote is that sometimes people have feelings that they know in their head are not totally justifiable. I doubt that Juan Williams intellectually believes that a woman in a head scarf will blow up a plane, but he said that his instinct is to feel nervous nonetheless.

I am not homophobic, but I have to admit that being in a room with two guys kissing is uncomfortable. I mean, for the first half of my life, homosexuality was considered a disease by psychiatrists. I did not grow up thinking that it was acceptable. As a middle aged man, I have learned enough not to villify people, but I can't completely erase my subconscious.

The way he said the comment, Juan implied that he wished he didn't feel that way, but he has to question where the loyalties lie.

Quote: Keyser

We are losing our free speech. The liberals have got to go.



Juan Williams is normally considered liberal.
benbakdoff
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October 21st, 2010 at 1:14:02 PM permalink
Shortly after 9-11 I was on a flight that happened to have a college football team on board. There were also three men who fit the preconceived description of terrorists right down to the head gear. The crew not so discreetly rearranged seating so that these men were surrounded by burly football players. There wasn't a peep out of anyone.

Did the crew over react?
EvenBob
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October 21st, 2010 at 2:24:40 PM permalink
Williams is the token Black Lib on Fox and he plays the role perfectly. Personally, he puts me to sleep.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AZDuffman
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October 21st, 2010 at 3:46:26 PM permalink
Juan made a valid point but is a liberal caught in the same craziness liberals always put conservatives in. All of this is nonsense but somebody must tell me why we are espically so afraid of doing anything that offends muslims. Too much of the country is afraid of offending them or else just wants to "be liked" so bad that a person can be fired for making a valid comment.

How valid was the comment? In WWII would you be nervous if you worked at the docks and heard a bunch of workers that looked out of place and speaking german?
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EvenBob
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October 21st, 2010 at 3:51:41 PM permalink
I remember Williams first years on NPR. He has mellowed drastically since those days, he's much more middle of the road now.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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October 21st, 2010 at 3:54:06 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

We are losing our free speech. The liberals have got to go.



We Must Submit to Sharia Law and Islamification, - or rightfully DIE as the worthless infidels that we are!

Hey, it's coming. Europe was the Canary in the Coal mine. RIP.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
JerryLogan
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October 21st, 2010 at 4:00:25 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Juan made a valid point but is a liberal caught in the same craziness liberals always put conservatives in. All of this is nonsense but somebody must tell me why we are espically so afraid of doing anything that offends muslims. Too much of the country is afraid of offending them or else just wants to "be liked" so bad that a person can be fired for making a valid comment.



I'll repeat what O'Reilly said on the View: Muslims attacked us on 9-11. I also know the Koran is a hypocritical, violent writing that should be eliminated from civilization. Those morons are involved in almost every violent conflict on the face of the earth. I don't care if Joy Behar whines like a stuck pig over any of it. I don't care if they like it or not. I don't care if they threaten me or not. They want a piece of me then give it their best shot. We've got free speech in this country, and free speech it is.
AZDuffman
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October 21st, 2010 at 4:18:51 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

I'll repeat what O'Reilly said on the View: Muslims attacked us on 9-11. I also know the Koran is a hypocritical, violent writing that should be eliminated from civilization. Those morons are involved in almost every violent conflict on the face of the earth. I don't care if Joy Behar whines like a stuck pig over any of it. I don't care if they like it or not. I don't care if they threaten me or not. They want a piece of me then give it their best shot. We've got free speech in this country, and free speech it is.



A friend asked me if "I have read the Koran" when I told him islam is a violent, intolerant religion. I then told him how muslims battle with every religion that borders them (Jew, Christian, Hindu) and of the kids I met who were peacefully in church in Africa when muslims stormed in and killed the Catholic Priest because he would not convert on the spot then had to walk across a desert to safety. I can go on and on about how dangerous it is.

Bill O is right in that so much of this nation is so immature to demand you say "not all muslims" when you mention something they did. Funny the left does not treat the Tea Party with the same respect.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
thecesspit
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October 21st, 2010 at 4:24:06 PM permalink
The easy answer would be to get rid of all religions... they all espouse intolerance and cause conflict on one way or another...

By easy I mean "actually not at all possible".
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
SanchoPanza
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October 21st, 2010 at 4:31:32 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Williams is the token Black Lib on Fox and he plays the role perfectly. Personally, he puts me to sleep.


He is less of a token than any person of color at, say, MSNBC. Here is just a starting list of your "tokens" at Fox News Channel:

Julian Phillips
Wendell Goler
James Brown
Kelly Wright
Harris Faulkner
Malini Bawa
Uma Pemmaraju
Shushannah Walshe
Lauren Green
Tiki Barber
EvenBob
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October 21st, 2010 at 4:32:27 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

The easy answer would be to get rid of all religions... they all espouse intolerance and cause conflict on one way or another...



No they don't. For instance, Hindu's, Jew's and Buddhists could care less if you want to join their religions. In fact, they wish you wouldn't. The religions that cause conflicts are the ones that want you to join them, like Christians and Muslims. Or Scientologists and Mormons.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AZDuffman
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October 21st, 2010 at 5:06:51 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

The easy answer would be to get rid of all religions... they all espouse intolerance and cause conflict on one way or another...



Not really. Other than Muslims most religions get along with each other for the most part. Muslims are the only religion where they kill you if you do not agree with them. If you consider "envrionmentalism" and athiesm forms of religion they are also intolerant as well.

Most religions are content not to bother you if you do not bother them.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
EvenBob
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October 21st, 2010 at 5:15:51 PM permalink
Just saw Juan on O'Reilly and you can tell his feelings are really hurt by being fired. Being fired is very stressful, its right up there with losing a parent or loved one on the stress meter.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Wavy70
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October 21st, 2010 at 6:23:33 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Not really. Other than Muslims most religions get along with each other for the most part. Muslims are the only religion where they kill you if you do not agree with them. If you consider "envrionmentalism" and athiesm forms of religion they are also intolerant as well.

Most religions are content not to bother you if you do not bother them.



Geez Duff have you ever read a history book? Not sure if you heard of a group called the Jews they have had a few issues over the last few millennium. Not sure if you heard about the Bosnian massacre that was inflicted by the Christian majority on the Muslim minority. Sri Lanka's Hindus and Buddhists have been killing each other for years. Not to mention the vast sects of Christianity which have been killing each other for years. The Spanish monks who had the convert or die attitude. Up to less than a hundred years ago Native American children being taken from their home and put in Christian schools. To think most religions get along aside from Islam is a bit of convenient memory.
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.
mkl654321
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October 21st, 2010 at 6:38:50 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Williams is the token Black Lib on Fox and he plays the role perfectly. Personally, he puts me to sleep.



You know, it's language like that that has caused the right's overreactions in the first place.

It's about thirty years past the time when a black person would have plausibly been placed in a professional position because of "tokenism". Those who say things like that perhaps don't realize that one out of every eight persons in the US is African-American. So any organization of any size is going to have a number of African-Americans in various positions. And the next right-wing-loony argument would be that "blacks aren't educated, so if one of them becomes a (whatever), it's because of affirmative action or tokenism, not because he's worth anything". But, news flash, Glenn Beckites--African-Americans have been going to college for quite some time now. Those who are in professional positions have EARNED those positions.

About 150 years ago, most people truly thought that blacks were genetically inferior. Some people STILL think that. It's too bad that the right's vehement rhetorical response to that outmoded thinking has spilled over into it being de facto illegal to criticize ANYONE if they're not white.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
AZDuffman
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October 21st, 2010 at 6:39:33 PM permalink
Quote: Wavy70

Geez Duff have you ever read a history book? Not sure if you heard of a group called the Jews they have had a few issues over the last few millennium. Not sure if you heard about the Bosnian massacre that was inflicted by the Christian majority on the Muslim minority. Sri Lanka's Hindus and Buddhists have been killing each other for years. Not to mention the vast sects of Christianity which have been killing each other for years. The Spanish monks who had the convert or die attitude. Up to less than a hundred years ago Native American children being taken from their home and put in Christian schools. To think most religions get along aside from Islam is a bit of convenient memory.



Read plenty of them. Most times the Jews had problems because they were attacked. Bosnia was about ethnicity more than religion. Remember how Yugoslavia was kept together by a leader half and half so both sides put up with him for years? Christians killing each other is more politics (eg: N Ireland under Brit Oppression) than religion. And those Spanish Monks were fighting invading muslims (the moops, for those of you in Rio Linda.) I would feel far safer as an outsider in a Christian (though I am); Jewish, or Hindu place. I would not feel safe as an outsider in a muslim society.

What I do not understand is all the defense of muslims from the left. They stone women for the crime of BEING raped. I don't see christians doing that.
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EvenBob
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October 21st, 2010 at 7:03:02 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

You know, it's language like that that has caused the right's overreactions in the first place.

It's about thirty years past the time when a black person would have plausibly been placed in a professional position because of "tokenism".



Really? Just last year the NAACP raised a huge stink with NPR and claimed that as the only Black male commentator on NPR, Williams was the 'token' Black. So they were wrong too? Frankly, I don't care for Williams because he has one 'tone' on NPR and another on FOX. I couldn't stand him when he was on Crossfire. He plays both ends against the middle and adapts his views to whatever venue he's in. I don't know what his real views are, but I suspect they are far more Liberal than he lets on. He likes to walk the fence so he can work as many places as he can.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
pacomartin
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October 21st, 2010 at 7:36:59 PM permalink
Fox is letting him host Bill O'Reilly's show tomorrow, and they are strongly recommending that he sue NPR. They are determined to start a movement to stop any tax dollars

NPR is doing a straightforward coverage of the story.
mkl654321
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October 21st, 2010 at 8:00:44 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Really? Just last year the NAACP raised a huge stink with NPR and claimed that as the only Black male commentator on NPR, Williams was the 'token' Black. So they were wrong too? Frankly, I don't care for Williams because he has one 'tone' on NPR and another on FOX. I couldn't stand him when he was on Crossfire. He plays both ends against the middle and adapts his views to whatever venue he's in. I don't know what his real views are, but I suspect they are far more Liberal than he lets on. He likes to walk the fence so he can work as many places as he can.



That's the point. Blacks claim he's a "token", and so do liberals. That's outmoded thinking. Can't anyone conceive of the fact that if there are, say, somewhere between six and a dozen anchors, that ONE black anchor is the most likely number, even if they were completely randomly selected from the entire population?

It may have been that NPR simply selected the best people for the job, regardless of skin color. Gasp!
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
RonC
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October 21st, 2010 at 8:09:24 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Fox is letting him host Bill O'Reilly's show tomorrow, and they are strongly recommending that he sue NPR. They are determined to start a movement to stop any tax dollars

NPR is doing a straightforward coverage of the story.



I have not seen NPR's "straightforward coverage"--are they mentioning the boss stating that Juan's personal feelings should be between him and his psychiatrist? She should be fired for insinuating that he needs a psychiatrist--and Juan should also sue her.

He'll make more money now...big Fox contract!!
pacomartin
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October 21st, 2010 at 8:22:20 PM permalink
Quote: RonC


I have not seen NPR's "straightforward coverage"--are they mentioning the boss stating that Juan's personal feelings should be between him and his psychiatrist? She should be fired for insinuating that he needs a psychiatrist--and Juan should also sue her.

He'll make more money now...big Fox contract!!



Here is the comment. It seems pretty straightforward.

Quote: Blog on NPR site


NPR CEO Apologizes For 'Psychiatrist' Remark
02:08 pm October 21, 2010 by Mark Memmott

NPR CEO Vivian Schiller just released this statement:
"I spoke hastily and I apologize to Juan and others for my thoughtless remark."

That follows her comment earlier today that now-former NPR news analyst Juan Williams should have kept his feelings about Muslims between himself and "his psychiatrist or his publicist."



Yes, I think that this will improve his financial net worth. Hardly anyone is villifying him. Even CAIR admits that he is not a bigot, and they refuse to say that they are happy that he was fired. CAIR's public position is that it was a decision by NPR to fire Juan Williams, and they were just complaining about the remark because it seemed to say that say that it is acceptable to be afraid of air passengers in Moslem garb.
JerryLogan
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October 21st, 2010 at 8:42:50 PM permalink
Quote: Wavy70

Geez Duff have you ever read a history book? Not sure if you heard of a group called the Jews they have had a few issues over the last few millennium. Not sure if you heard about the Bosnian massacre that was inflicted by the Christian majority on the Muslim minority. Sri Lanka's Hindus and Buddhists have been killing each other for years. Not to mention the vast sects of Christianity which have been killing each other for years. The Spanish monks who had the convert or die attitude. Up to less than a hundred years ago Native American children being taken from their home and put in Christian schools. To think most religions get along aside from Islam is a bit of convenient memory.



As you conveniently and selectively leave out the fact that there are currently 24 deadly conflicts going on in this world, and the wonderful Muslim religion is involved in all but one of them.

Religion of peace? Destroy 'em and we have a shot at world peace.
pacomartin
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October 21st, 2010 at 8:46:27 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

As you conveniently and selectively leave out the fact that there are currently 24 deadly conflicts going on in this world, and the wonderful Muslim religion is involved in all but one of them.



Interesting comment. What are these conflicts?
mkl654321
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October 21st, 2010 at 10:10:16 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Interesting comment. What are these conflicts?



He doesn't have any idea what he's talking about. What's a "deadly conflict", in any case? A declared war between nations? An insurgency within a nation? A rebellion? An undeclared war? A drug cartel battle? Two spouses in a trailer park fighting it out with kitchen utensils?

I'm sure he'll try to come up with some kooky justification for that "24" number (as in: some things are "deadly conflicts" and some aren't), but the assertion that "the Muslim religion" is involved in all but one of them is...well...it's JerryLogan.

Obviously, if there are two combatants, and one or the other of them has a Muslim population, that doesn't mean that Islam is the cause of the conflict. I could name half a dozen ongoing major conflicts right off the top of my head that don't have a religious basis. I suppose YoYo would say that if there is a single person in either country who is Muslim, then (logically!!!!!) it's a "Muslim conflict".

I suppose if we declared war on Canada, that would be a "Muslim conflict", because both countries have Muslim populations.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Kelmo
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October 21st, 2010 at 10:33:36 PM permalink
Throughout history, governments have been using religion and fear to control the people. I agree with thecesspit, get rid of all religion, like John Lennon said. People, you have a much greater chance of being in a plane crash than getting highjacked by islamic extremist. Like the puritins of old, who used to burn midwifes at the stake, there are people out there that spew a lot of BS to these uneducated third world counties. The real problem is not the Koran, which was written many moons before anyone ever thought of the new world, let alone the US, the problem is a lack of education and fundamental resources to expose the myths about American intentions. Sadly, the same kind of hatred is taking hold in the US (a backlash if you will). This is what got the guy fired, but the irony is that he was reacting like an alarmist and made his own bed.
When people look back at these conflicts historically, they will be looking at how the media and government of the US cultivated a sense of fear in their population in order to justify and gain public support for regime change is two strategically located middle east countries. The US will never win the war on terror, because it is not a war by definition. How do you fight ignorance? With a gun or by using your intelect?
RonC
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October 21st, 2010 at 11:07:14 PM permalink
Thanks, Pacomartin, for posting her apology.

Juan said something that many, if not most, people feel when they encounter a group of Muslims at an airport. Haven't we all felt the initial twing of fear when something makes us uncomfortable? I can think of many little situations that make our internal alarms put us on alert. Juan did not say to hate a Muslim or to do something to them, or that they don't have a right to fly...he just said that it alarmed him a bit. NPR fired a man for being honest while keeping others that have said much, much worse...
pacomartin
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October 21st, 2010 at 11:13:11 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I suppose if we declared war on Canada, that would be a "Muslim conflict", because both countries have Muslim populations.



I suppose that you would have to decide if minority populations consititute a Muslim conflict.
France seems to be the leader for Western Europe. Suriname seems to be the highest percentage for the Western hemisphere.

United States 0.8%
Norway 1.0%
Spain 1.0%
China 1.6%
Australia 1.7%
Canada 2.0%
Denmark 2.0%
Sweden 2.0%
United Kingdom 2.7%
Belgium 3.0%
Greece 3.0%
Germany 4.0%
Netherlands 5.7%
France 6.0%
Russia 11.7%
India 13.4%
Suriname 15.9%
World Total 22.9%
Macedonia 33.0%
Albania 79.9%
EvenBob
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October 21st, 2010 at 11:20:43 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

He doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.



Here's a list of current world conflicts. See any Muslims?

Afghanistan : Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. They were protected by, and integrated with, the Taliban dictatorship in the country. The Northern Alliance of rebel Afghans, Britain and the U.S. attacked the Taliban and Al Quada, establishing a new regime in part of the country. The fighting continues.

Bosnia: Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims Fragile peace is holding, due to the presence of peacekeepers. 2
Côte d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christian Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..." 5 A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.

Cyprus : Christians & Muslims The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.

East Timor : Christians & Muslims A Roman Catholic country. About 30% of the population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. The situation is now stable.

India : Animists, Christians, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs Various conflicts that heat up periodically producing loss of life. Christians are regularly attacked in Orissa province by militant Hindu extremists.

Indonesia, province of Ambon : Christians & Muslims After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation now appears to be stable.

Indonesia, province of Halmahera : Christians & Muslims 30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed.

Iraq : Kurds, Shiite Muslims, Sunni Muslims, western armed forces By mid-2006, a small scale civil war, primarily between Shiite and Sunni Muslims started. The situation appears to be steadily improving since the coalition forces have withdrawn from the cities.

Kashmir : Hindus & Muslims A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. The availability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them are destabilizing the region further. More details Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989.

Kosovo : Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story

Kurdistan : Christians, Muslims Periodic assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, & Assyrian Orthodox).
Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians) engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who are primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians during the 1990s. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.

Middle East : Jews, Muslims, & Christians The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew who died. Major strife broke out in 2000-SEP. Flareups repeat. No resolution appears possible.

Nigeria : Christians, Animists, & Muslims Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships. More details
Northern Ireland Protestants, Catholics After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years. A ceasefire is holding.

Pakistan : Suni & Shi'ite Muslims Low level mutual attacks, overshadowed by Taliban insurrectionists.

Philippines: Christians & Muslims A low level conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries. More details

Russia,
Chechnya : Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Many atrocities have been alleged on both sides. According to the Voice of the Martyrs: "In January 2002 Chechen rebels included all Christians on their list of official enemies, vowing to 'blow up every church and mission-related facility in Russia'." 7

Somalia : Wahhabi and Sufi Muslims Sufi Muslims -- a tolerant moderate tradition of Islam are fighting the Shabab who follow the Wahhabi tradition of Islam in a continuing conflict.

South Africa : Animists & "Witches" Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practicing black magic, are murdered each year.

Sri Lanka : Buddhists & Hindus Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in a war for independence since 1983 with the rest of the country (70% Sinhalese Buddhist). Hundreds of thousands have been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in 2002-SEP, when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence. The South Asian Tsunami in 2004-DEC induced some cooperation. By 2009 the Tamil uprising was crushed..

Sudan : Animists, Christians & Muslims Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict in which the Muslim regime committed genocide against both Animists and Christians in the south of the country. Slavery and near slavery were practiced. A ceasefire was signed in 2006-MAY between some of the combatants. 3 Warfare continues in the Darfur region, primarily between a Muslim militia and Muslim inhabitants.

Thailand : Buddhists & Muslims Muslim rebels have been involved in a bloody insurgency in southern Thailand -- a country that is 95% Buddhist.

Tibet : Buddhists & Communists Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's. Brutal suppression of Buddhism continues.
*
Uganda : Animists, Christians, & Muslims Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,
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JerryLogan
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October 22nd, 2010 at 3:49:01 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Interesting comment. What are these conflicts?



The Sudan, Indonesia, Phillippines, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel/Palestine, Russia/Chechnya, etc. I'm not looking them all up for that idiot mkl. Shepherd Smith made the comment last week. Muslims are the only religion who hate, kill, and do not accept other religions living in harmony with theirs. Their "holy book" is the only writing that preaches death to those of other religions, and it is the only writing that allows for the mistreatment of women. It is as sick and hypocritical religion as there has ever been, and the only reason so many young Muslims accept the Koran's radical interpretations is because they live in squalor with no way out other than fighting, hate and death.
SanchoPanza
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October 22nd, 2010 at 6:48:53 AM permalink
Quote: Wavy70

Geez Duff have you ever read a history book? Not sure if you heard of a group called the Jews they have had a few issues over the last few millennium.


Care to count the number of instances in which that group as been attacked vs. the other way around?
thecesspit
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October 22nd, 2010 at 11:46:26 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

As you conveniently and selectively leave out the fact that there are currently 24 deadly conflicts going on in this world, and the wonderful Muslim religion is involved in all but one of them.

Religion of peace? Destroy 'em and we have a shot at world peace.



JL : Are you a Christian?
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
thecesspit
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October 22nd, 2010 at 11:51:25 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Christians killing each other is more politics (eg: N Ireland under Brit Oppression).



Erm.... Northern Ireland is/was a mess, but I think terming it due to British Oppression misses a WHOLE lot of detail... the troubles are highly sectarian and religiously based. If the nine counties had be part of the republic from the start there would have been the same problems in reverse.

Please don't characterize the fact the UK was attacked by terrorists on multiple occasions, maiming and killing citizens and soldiers die to some sort of political oppression by the British. Also the Loyalist Terror groups were also a bunch of murderous arseholes as much as the Republicans, in case anyone thinks I'm sort sort of Orange order freeman.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
EvenBob
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October 22nd, 2010 at 2:24:25 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

The Sudan, Indonesia, Phillippines, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel/Palestine, Russia/Chechnya, etc. I'm not looking them all up for that idiot mkl. Shepherd Smith made the comment last week. Muslims are the only religion who hate, kill, and do not accept other religions living in harmony with theirs. Their "holy book" is the only writing that preaches death to those of other religions, and it is the only writing that allows for the mistreatment of women. It is as sick and hypocritical religion as there has ever been, and the only reason so many young Muslims accept the Koran's radical interpretations is because they live in squalor with no way out other than fighting, hate and death.



I listed the conflicts in a post before yours, 99% of them involve Muslims. Its a religion that appeals to the uneducated, thats why its so popular in American prisons. It tells you what to do when you're too stupid to figure out anything on your own.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
thecesspit
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October 22nd, 2010 at 3:18:23 PM permalink
I counted 20 from 23, which is 87%. Whats 12% between friends.

I found your list here :: http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm The subtitle is the conflicts "with some degree of religious intolerance". So it is not all conflicts, some of the ones listed are pretty dormant as well. I'd also argue that the three Indonesian conflicts, the three former-Yugoslavian conflicts and the India/Kashmir/Pakistan conflicts are more or less one and the same root cause (modern day colonialism, ethnic and ethno-religious in that order). But whatever. I'd pretty much agree that there is a lot of conflict which involves extreme, hardcore religious views and that Islam has more than most.

Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka and Tibet are the three that don't have any Islamic players. Uganda's Lord's Resistance Army is possibly of note in that it is theocratic, extremist Christians trying to enforce their religious views on others by murder and warfare.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Nareed
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October 22nd, 2010 at 4:33:10 PM permalink
Christianity has been pretty bad over the centuries. No doubt even a half-educated person can come up with a long laundry list of Christian atrocities, including the Crusades and the Inquisition. But such things are highly irrelevant in today's world.

Christianity does not do such things anymore. No country is ruled by a Christian church (except the Vatican, if you want to call a Roman neighborhood a country), and no country really runs under Christian principles (although to be sured many ruling principles in the West are rooted or inspired by Christianity). Overall the Christian beast has been well and truly tamed by civilization. It's a sideshow. Far and wide in the West, and in most Christian countries and communities, religion is viewed as a private matter, and other people's religions don't usually matter.

Of course since its inception Christianity had two things going for it: 1) It recognized and accepted a difference between God and Earthly powers (to render unto Caesar and all that), and 2) It made no set rules on how to deal with people of another religion. While the latter made persecution in the scale of the Inquisition possible, it also makes peaceful co-existence possible.
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mkl654321
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October 22nd, 2010 at 5:31:30 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Of course since its inception Christianity had two things going for it: 1) It recognized and accepted a difference between God and Earthly powers (to render unto Caesar and all that), and 2) It made no set rules on how to deal with people of another religion. While the latter made persecution in the scale of the Inquisition possible, it also makes peaceful co-existence possible.



Actually, Christianity has only very recently released its stranglehold on the everyday lives of the people. As recently as two hundred years ago, in fact, well into the nineteenth century in some places IN THE U.S., not going to church on Sunday could get you thrown in jail. In England, it was the mid-nineteenth century before the Church relinquished its secular power. In Russia, that didn't happen until the Bolshevik Revolution. So it may have RECOGNIZED the divide between the secular and the religious sphere, but it didn't have any compunction against crossing that divide.

I have observed that there actually was a fairly well-defined rubric for dealing with other faiths--kill them or convert them. The periods during which Catholic countries actually tolerated the existence of minority religions were both rare and brief--pogroms, massacres, persecutions, and prolonged conflicts like the Thirty Years' War were the rule rather than the exception.

Peaceful coexistence, where it exists, has come about as an effect of the overall secularization of society, not because Catholicism has mellowed out. It's just that the priest-class has realized that belching fire and brimstone can be counterproductive; the secular rulers might consider the resultant upheavals to cancel out the pacifying and numbing effects of religion, and consequently haul the priests off to prison.

In any case, anyone saying that fanaticism and the willingness to shed blood in defense of "The Faith" is confined to Islam needs to read a good history book. If Western society was as fragmented, primitive, misogynistic, and corrupt as Middle Eastern societies are today, then we, too, would be screaming "God is Great!" and blowing up things.
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EvenBob
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October 22nd, 2010 at 5:57:09 PM permalink
Juan Williams hosted O'Reilly tonight and I lasted 20min. I just can't take a lot of Juan, his voice gets very irratating and I have to turn it off. He just isn't all that professional.
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Doc
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October 22nd, 2010 at 5:58:41 PM permalink
I am not offering my own opinion on these matters. But I just stumbled across a news item that I thought might interest folks who are involved in discussion of religious conflicts.

Link.
mkl654321
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October 22nd, 2010 at 8:25:25 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

I am not offering my own opinion on these matters. But I just stumbled across a news item that I thought might interest folks who are involved in discussion of religious conflicts.



Albania is almost unique in European nations dominated by the Axis in WWII, in that it was first conquered by Mussolini, then taken over by the Nazis, but recognized by them as a neutral country, and recaptured by partisans after a little more than a year. Thus, it was never subjected to the mass deportations of Jews that swept through other Eastern European/Balkan nations under Axis rule; the Italians never cooperated with the Nazis in rounding up Jews in lands they controlled, and Hitler, his armies stretched to the limit by mid-1943, didn't want to spare the troops to garrison the place after Italy's surrender. Thus Albania became a refuge, as well as a transshipment point for Jews looking to escape Europe and emigrate to Palestine.

It seems to me that in history overall, Muslims and Jews have generally gotten along. Medieval Jewish traders were allowed to enter Muslim domains, when Christians were not. The Muslims viewed the Jews as "People of the Book" and treated them honorably. The recent Palestinian-Israeli conflicts aren't really Muslim vs. Jew; they're more like "My land. No, mine."
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
pacomartin
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October 22nd, 2010 at 8:35:44 PM permalink
This article has been circulating a lot on the internet over the last four years. In some sense it has little to do with Islam, per se, but the observation that while the majority of people in the world are basically decent people, world history (and wars) are not drive by the passive majority, but by the extreme minority.

In the song, "Russians" by Sting, from his debut solo album, The Dream of the Blue Turtles (1985) there is the famous line "Russians love their children too", implying that because Russians are normal human beings they couldn't start a nuclear war.

Quote: Paul E. Marek: Why the Peaceful Majority is Irrelevant (20 February 2006)


I used to know a man whose family were German aristocracy prior to World War Two. They owned a number of large industries and estates. I asked him how many German people were true Nazis, and the answer he gave has stuck with me and guided my attitude toward fanaticism ever since.

“Very few people were true Nazis” he said, “but, many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.”

We are told again and again by “experts” and “talking heads” that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unquantified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is, that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars world wide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is, that the “peaceful majority” is the “silent majority” and it is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people. The Average Japanese individual prior to World War 2 was not a war mongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of Killing that included the systematic killing of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were “peace loving”.

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by the fanatics. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awake one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun. Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Bosnians, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others, have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

mkl654321
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October 22nd, 2010 at 10:37:37 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

This article has been circulating a lot on the internet over the last four years. In some sense it has little to do with Islam, per se, but the observation that while the majority of people in the world are basically decent people, world history (and wars) are not drive by the passive majority, but by the extreme minority.

In the song, "Russians" by Sting, from his debut solo album, The Dream of the Blue Turtles (1985) there is the famous line "Russians love their children too", implying that because Russians are normal human beings they couldn't start a nuclear war.



It's an interesting article, but its implied premise is deeply flawed. The peaceful majority is no longer "silent". Particularly in Western Europe and the United States, peace movements have been vocal and influential; Germany in particular has become pacifist, repudiating its past. In totalitarian regimes such as Myanmar, monks march in protest; women's groups are becoming more and more influential in Saudi Arabia; and even in Iran, as we saw last year, the "silent majority" is becoming less and less silent. I don't think there's enough misplaced nationalism left in the world for people to blindly follow some raving lunatic over a cliff any more.

I also think that the greater the communication between the world's peoples, the less power that extreme minority will have. "Where goods cross borders, armies will not." The most basic good is information, delivered these days by the ubiquitous internet. Wars are started when a group identifies itself as an ingroup and "the enemy" as an outgroup. It's much more difficult to demonize and objectify that enemy when you are forced to acknowledge that they are human beings, with hopes and fears and dreams, fathers and mothers and children.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
SanchoPanza
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October 23rd, 2010 at 7:46:41 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

It seems to me that in history overall, Muslims and Jews have generally gotten along. Medieval Jewish traders were allowed to enter Muslim domains, when Christians were not. The Muslims viewed the Jews as "People of the Book" and treated them honorably. The recent Palestinian-Israeli conflicts aren't really Muslim vs. Jew; they're more like "My land. No, mine."


The Jews and Arabs are probably more similar in many ways than dissimilar. Take food, clothing, religious observace, sex, place of women, etc. etc.
pacomartin
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October 23rd, 2010 at 11:45:58 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321


It seems to me that in history overall, Muslims and Jews have generally gotten along. Medieval Jewish traders were allowed to enter Muslim domains, when Christians were not. The Muslims viewed the Jews as "People of the Book" and treated them honorably. The recent Palestinian-Israeli conflicts aren't really Muslim vs. Jew; they're more like "My land. No, mine."



I agree with this statement. Most of the millenia and half prior to WWII had Jews and Muslims living together peacefully (if not in theological agreement). Jews do not accept any non-Jews as a prophet (especially Mohammed).But Jews rarely faced martyrdom or exile, or forced compulsion to change their religion, and they were mostly free in their choice of residence and profession.

SOME EXCEPTIONS
(1) The notable examples of massacre of Jews include the killing or forcible conversion of them by the rulers of thAlmohad dynasty in Al-Andalus in the 12th century.
(2) Jews were confined to walled quarters (mellahs) in Morocco beginning from the 15th century and especially since the early 19th century.
(3) Most conversions were voluntary and happened for various reasons. However, there were some forced conversions in the 12th century under the Almohad dynasty of North Africa and al-Andalus as well as in Persia.

This rather short list pales in comparison with the conflicts between Christians and Jews, or between Christians and Muslims.
SanchoPanza
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October 25th, 2010 at 5:01:16 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Williams is the token Black Lib on Fox and he plays the role perfectly. Personally, he puts me to sleep.


Williams's being so ignominiously fired leaves NPR without even a single "token." And Vivian Schiller has so far taken no public steps to find another "token," belying her assertion that Juan Williams was a long festering problem for NPR.
JerryLogan
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October 25th, 2010 at 6:31:41 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Williams's being so ignominiously fired leaves NPR without even a single "token." And Vivian Schiller has so far taken no public steps to find another "token," belying her assertion that Juan Williams was a long festering problem for NPR.



What I'm wondering about is where is that big mouth racist Al Sharpton this time? He wastes no time jumping out of the gate with his biggoted protests whenever a black is in any way demeaned on purpose or by accident, yet now it seems his hands are tied just as much as his tongue. I mean, since so many blackies adopt those stupid Muslim names "in the name of Allah", if he speaks out on the firing then either those people will come gunning for him or the other ones will criticize him. Good to see he's in such a spot.
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