MrV
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October 10th, 2017 at 7:01:29 PM permalink
In the midst of an email to me about getting together to work on his Benz this weekend, a Vietnam vet / lawyer buddy of mine sent me a classic email, excerpted below.

" I have to stand in non-take-a-knee protest on Sunday or during any other NFL political forum, oh I mean a conference game. Of course, not to disrespect the players' right to make millions of dollars for what has become more entertainment than sport; to perform no meaningful contribution or solution to the problem they perceive and protest; to disparage the country's flag and the thousands of law enforcement offices; and their refusal to exercise their other constitutional right to surrender their passports and select some other county to live in."

Indeed.
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Mission146
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October 10th, 2017 at 7:22:10 PM permalink
I think it's kind of important to note that SOME (not all) of the law enforcement officers' treatment of SOME (not all) people is the very thing that the very first such protester (CKaep) was protesting.

Furthermore, the E-Mail assumes that these players are unanimously not doing anything off of the field to effectuate change, so I'm glad that guy has met each individual player to actually protest to know that for sure.

I mean, if people want to discuss whether or not that means of protest, in and of itself, or whether it is being conducted in the proper forum is appropriate, then that's obviously a fine discussion. When we get into questioning individual motives of people to whom we have never individually spoken, or making assumptions about what said individuals do off of the field and out of the context of the game, then we are definitely on shaky ground.

Is it appropriate not to stand for the anthem? My answer is it depends on the employer since the person either standing or kneeling is acting as an employee in his/her place of employment. If the employer says it's fine, then it's fine. If the employer says that is not acceptable on company time, then it is not acceptable. I believe that once the employer of the individual has spoken as to the matter, then we are in no position to judge the person if he/she has been given permission.
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terapined
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October 10th, 2017 at 7:47:37 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

; to perform no meaningful contribution or solution to the problem they perceive and protest; .


Actually these athletes do a lot to help the communities they grew up in

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/04/20/colin-kaepernick-donations/100699392/

The organizations receiving donations in March included:
Life After Hate, Inc. Their stated goal is working with people to leave a "life of hate" and to work with organizations who are dealing with racism and intolerance.
Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle, located in Baltimore. The group works to improve the living conditions of African-Americans in the region.
Silence is Violence, based in New Orleans. Its goal is creating a "safe and equitable New Orleans."
gamerfreak
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October 10th, 2017 at 7:54:41 PM permalink
So those who don’t pledge their allegiance to a symbol should forfeit their citizenship? That doesn’t sound like America to me. Not an America that I’d want to live in.
MrV
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October 10th, 2017 at 8:27:52 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Not an America that I’d want to live in.



So get out.

I'll kick in ten bucks for your air fare.

America: love it or leave it.

Still holds true, at least to me and my disabled Vietnam vet buddy.

Standing for the anthem
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gamerfreak
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October 10th, 2017 at 8:29:45 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

America: love it or leave it.


That’s not how this freedom thing works.
rxwine
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October 10th, 2017 at 8:48:03 PM permalink
It's a peaceful protest in a free country.

Thought that's what they were fighting for.

Didn't think they were fighting to make sure people stand during the anthem.

Of course, fascist actually do care more about maintaining forced symbolism and punishing those who veer from it.
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MrV
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October 10th, 2017 at 10:16:18 PM permalink
Some things in life are fundamental.

One of them is loyalty to one's country of origin.

That is what standing for the anthem and saluting the flag stands for: a promise to be loyal to one's country.

To be willing to die for it, and to respect and pay homage to those who have given their lives for the cause.

The pampered little attention whores who refuse to stand for the anthem are only on the playing field for one purpose: our entertainment.

If I wanted to see a bunch of goons play at politics and political change I'd go watch an antifa demonstration down town: same nonsense.

I'd consign those who refuse to stand for the anthem to the same dung heap I once cast Vietnam draft dodgers.
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Doc
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October 10th, 2017 at 10:48:25 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Is it appropriate not to stand for the anthem?


I am reminded of an opportunity I had while I was in Cyprus back in 1982. I attended a gymnastics exhibition performed by members of the Cypriot national team and the Russian national team that was visiting. The national anthems of both countries were played, and I stood for both, to show respect for both the athletes and their respective countries. It doesn't have to be my own country for me to show respect and courtesy.

And yes, I stand (and salute) when the our national anthem is played at sporting events that I attend. (Out of respect, I don't sing along; with my voice, that could be offensive.)
Paradigm
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October 10th, 2017 at 10:52:10 PM permalink
I always follow the money when it comes to commitment...you can tell a lot about a man/woman by looking at his/her checkbook register!

So CKaep gets a passing grade in my book...I may not like the way he protests, but at least he is putting his $$ where his mouth is and that says alot about his convictions.

The problem is, he is the exception! If these NFL'ers, white or black, really gave a $h!t about the cause and problems faced by poor and oppressed communities of color, wouldn't you think that instead locking arms, those NFL players could take up a 5% collection of salaries from their "unified" locker rooms and really effect change? Almost every NFL Team has over $150M in salary spread around that room this year, let me do some math here:

5% of $150M times 32 Teams...hmmm, looks like $240M that could really affect some change in neighborhoods in their towns!

But the real fact of the matter is that it is a lot easier to "take a knee" or lock arms around a "cause" than actually care enough to give 5% of your annual salary to help fix it.

Wonder what would happen if they took the $7.5M per team raised and committed that money to fund two or three inner city youth centers where kids could have a safe and secure place to get help with school, learn skills and maybe get themselves and their families out of the hell hole that is downtown Chicago, Detroit, or (insert low income inner city where black on black crime is through the roof here).

These are the same places where no one wants to admit that being a police officer of any color is one hell of a hard job. Mistakes are made and over zealous power hungry cops can be the result of the day to day existence of trying to keep the peace in a neighborhood where there are some really bad people, mixed in with the good, honest hard working poor people and it gets really hard to tell which is which. Of course you never hear about the vast majority of cops that are professional and do their jobs the best they can...and it is one hell of a career challenge they took on when they signed up for the academy.

So I am waiting for it NFL Players....quit taking knees, holding hands and locking arms and start cutting some big checks...until I see that, I consider you all a bunch of posers that don't really give damn! And I really haven't watched much NFL Football this year, only one Seahawks game during the first 4 weeks...cause I got better things to do than watch a bunch of spoiled athletes make a political statement instead of quietly flexing their economic muscle to actually do something. What a joke!!
rxwine
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October 10th, 2017 at 11:21:20 PM permalink
Agree with this guy.

Leonard Rusher, a retired Lt. Col. in the Army, (black man, btw)

Quote:

The Lions honored Rusher on Sunday in the second half of their game against the Atlanta Falcons.

Rusher was born and raised in Detroit. He spent 33 years in the Army and is now retired and lives in Lansing.

He got on the bus and I followed him.

“What are you going to do today?” I asked, sitting next to him.

“I’m going to salute the flag,” Rusher said.

It was about an hour before kickoff.   “If the players kneel down, how will that make you feel?” I asked.

“If they kneel, I’m going to salute, I’m going to salute with pride,” he said. “I understand why they are kneeling. That’s what I fought for. For them to have the right. Personally,  I don’t like it. But I appreciate that what they are doing is a non-violent protest. No people are hurt. No equipment is lost. Black Lives do matter.”



http://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnists/jeff-seidel/2017/09/24/detroit-lions-black-army-veteran-salutes-national-anthem-collides-race-nfl-politics-and-hometown-her/698103001/
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billryan
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October 10th, 2017 at 11:39:25 PM permalink
One of my best friends is a money guy for about two dozen current or former NFL players. He played for Hofstra with Wayne Chebret and has a Masters in Finance. Just about every one of his clients has a foundation and donates time and money to it. I've sat at tables they buy for Boomer Easions annual event at the Waldorf that raises millions each year.
Anyone who says NFL players and their clubs don't contribute to charities is speaking out of ignorance.
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rainman
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October 10th, 2017 at 11:58:23 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Some things in life are fundamental.

One of them is loyalty to one's country of origin.

That is what standing for the anthem and saluting the flag stands for: a promise to be loyal to one's country.

To be willing to die for it, and to respect and pay homage to those who have given their lives for the cause.

The pampered little attention whores who refuse to stand for the anthem are only on the playing field for one purpose: our entertainment.

If I wanted to see a bunch of goons play at politics and political change I'd go watch an antifa demonstration down town: same nonsense.

I'd consign those who refuse to stand for the anthem to the same dung heap I once cast Vietnam draft dodgers.



Even if that country has a corrupt Government & judicial system?

I thought standing and saluting from the time we are children is about brainwashing and indoctrination so when
the time comes to send your ass to die so the senders themselves don't have too you will feel all patriotic
and shit and won't question it.

I thought being able to protest by not standing is what freedom is all about, I also think if someone forces you
by violence or threat of loosing your job then the flag and all it stands for is bullshit.

When I want to watch goons play at politics I watch our government and their hired armies CIA, FBI. Local police etc...

I don't stand for the anthem, when you personally want to consign me to the dung heap let me know.
MrV
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October 11th, 2017 at 12:27:38 AM permalink
You thought wrong.

Consider yourself consigned.

Apt.
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rainman
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October 11th, 2017 at 12:34:54 AM permalink
lol, only on the internet can a senior be a badass.
MrV
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October 11th, 2017 at 12:37:03 AM permalink
I'm not a senior, bub, and I'm not a "badass."

Try another angle for your infantile ad hominem response to my argument.
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rainman
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October 11th, 2017 at 1:09:51 AM permalink
I have seen a picture of you if your not your close, looked like your in good shape.
your the one attacking people not positions you were throwing people on the dung
heap weren't you?
Rigondeaux
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October 11th, 2017 at 1:41:44 AM permalink
I don't care all that much. Kap is said to have consulted with a Navy Seal on how to protest respectfully, but his pig socks didn't help.

More generally, I don't know if this form of protest really wins many over to their POV, so it might not be well advised, in which case people who don't think there's a problem with police (or whatever) should be happy.

I don't think it's intended as a rejection of the whole country, but enough people read it that way. Some of them would never be sympathetic, but others might be more receptive to another type of protest. Though, if the protest didn't get a lot of attention, it would be a mute point.

I wonder what would happen if this was a pro-life protest.



Quote: gamerfreak
Not an America that I’d want to live in.


Quote: MrV

So get out.

I'll kick in ten bucks for your air fare.

America: love it or leave it.

Still holds true, at least to me and my disabled Vietnam vet buddy.

Standing for the anthem



The America that exists, and has more or less always existed, in which peaceful protest is allowed, bothers you, but not him. In other words, you're the one who doesn't like it. Therefore he should be the one to leave? Makes sense. Would be simpler for you to move to a country where protest is not allowed and patriotic displays are mandatory.


Quote: billryan

One of my best friends is a money guy for about two dozen current or former NFL players. He played for Hofstra with Wayne Chebret and has a Masters in Finance. Just about every one of his clients has a foundation and donates time and money to it. I've sat at tables they buy for Boomer Easions annual event at the Waldorf that raises millions each year.
Anyone who says NFL players and their clubs don't contribute to charities is speaking out of ignorance.



Watson, the Houston QB was a recent example. Gave his first game check to the cafeteria crew which was very generous since, as a rookie, there's no guarantee he will wind up earning that big of a fortune.

Similarly, the kicker for the Lions just bought a bunch of dog food for hurricane dogs or something like that. Kind of weird, but a nice thing to do.

I don't know about the teams/NFL itself. I think they probably take more than they give. If the Raiders give $1 Billion + to the city of Vegas I'll be pretty surprised. And some of that goes to player salaries. But overall, a lot of players do awesome stuff and I'm sure some owners do as well.
terapined
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October 11th, 2017 at 4:44:43 AM permalink
Bottom line
People offended by the kneeling are offended because its done by people that are Black
I mean if these people were really offended, why not go after the millions that don't stand and happen to be white

8 million Jehova witnesses out there
They do not salute or stand for ANY flag
terapined
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October 11th, 2017 at 4:52:21 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

So get out.

I'll kick in ten bucks for your air fare.

America: love it or leave it.

Still holds true, at least to me and my disabled Vietnam vet buddy.

Standing for the anthem



Protestors in the 60's and 70's against the Viet Nam war are the true patriots
They saved lives
Over 50k American soldiers died in Viet Nam for absolutely nothing
Without all the protesting
It could of easily been over 100k American kids killed over nothing
Without all the protesting, we might still be over there dying for nothing.
Keeneone
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October 11th, 2017 at 5:13:37 AM permalink
I have never really understood why Americans tell other Americans to leave America if they do not like/love something about America.

But for those who like saying it...
Mission146
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October 11th, 2017 at 5:25:33 AM permalink
Quote: Doc



And yes, I stand (and salute) when the our national anthem is played at sporting events that I attend. (Out of respect, I don't sing along; with my voice, that could be offensive.)



You're fine, offensive is when a featured singer screws up the lyrics!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
gordonm888
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October 11th, 2017 at 7:45:47 AM permalink
I have no problem with an off-duty private citizen, dressed in their own clothes, kneeling for the anthem as a peaceful protest.

But NFL football players are not dressed in their own clothes. They wear the uniform of a private corporation (Their NFL club) with the name of the corporation prominently displayed on their uniform. The private corporation itself claims to represent a city or region, each of which is filled with many people with diverse views.

The NFL player is "on duty." He is being paid to provide entertainment by a private corporation and that is the only reason he is on TV.

Let me ask a question: Why does the NFL display the American flag and ask people to sing the Star Spangled Banner? No law or governmental agency requires that they do that. Answer. They display the flag in order to honor it. That is their intention, isn't it? So why should they allow their own salaried employees to disrupt the ceremony and send an opposite message.? This makes no sense.
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MrV
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October 11th, 2017 at 7:54:47 AM permalink
Quote: rainman

I have seen a picture of you if your not your close, looked like your in good shape.
your the one attacking people not positions you were throwing people on the dung
heap weren't you?



Close, yes; not "there" yet, not medicare eligible.

Still working, working out, very active and healthy with my wits about me (I think).

I agree the players have the constitutional right to protest in a civil fashion; but I don't have to like it, nor must I respect them for it.

No, it's not a racial thing, as I also condemn the mostly caucasian antifa numbnuts who occasionally prance through Portland starting fires, breaking shop windows and committing mayhem.

And no, I am definitely NOT a Trump fan, nor am I a republican (I always vote Libertarian).

I just dislike open displays of what seems to me to be a lack of patriotism and lack of respect for our established institutions such as law enforcement.

My preference would be for people to respect the result of a democratic election; if they dislike the way things are, elect representatives who espouse their beliefs, and if their guy loses they should accept the result and try harder next time.

That is the democratic process.

As for the NFL / anthem issue, I understand the team owners are soon meeting and will take this matter up at that time: should be "interesting," as in that old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times."
"What, me worry?"
Mission146
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October 11th, 2017 at 8:45:29 AM permalink
GordonM888,

I understand and appreciate your point, but even though we seem to disagree on the fundamental outcome of our point, we are making the same point! My point is that, if the employer does not order the player to stand, then the player has the right to do whatever the player wants to do.

Granted, you can refrain from consuming the product if you really want to. However, if the players are allowed to do that, "At work," then who are we to say they shouldn't?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Paradigm
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October 11th, 2017 at 9:05:55 AM permalink
Since I brought up NFL Player charitable giving, I believe BR just called me ignorant.

Boomer & Wayne...Wow, you are really in the know, very impressive...funny thing is I didn't see either of them of the field on Sunday kneeling or locking arms...but with your connections and knowledge I am sure that video link is coming. Just curious, does your friend say Boomer and Wayne are big contributors to the NAACP?

Only a simpleton would think that I called out NFL Players for being non-charitable...what I said was I am waiting to see more NFL Player Money going directly to this significant cause. CKaep is the only one with credibility on this issue at the moment, he doesn't even have a job but is living up to his $1M commitment...where is the rest of these deeply committed NFL'ers money? I am sure the "more enlightened" have that list of significant NFL Player donations to fight racism handy. BR can you get that list from your friend and share that with the Forum?

This isn't about Foundations raising money from donors at Annual Events, only an ignoramus would equate raising charitable money through a Private Foundation and personal giving to this specific cause.

NFL Players "giving time"...only a moron would think giving time is a sacrifice for someone that reports to work from mid July through January.

Stop making excuses for the NFL Players...they either cut big checks right now and truly support the cause or they don't really care and this is just a political stunt (e.g. Pence at the Indianapolis game). End of story.

And comparing the commitment a Jehovah's Witness has to their faith and the NFL Players commitment to this issue...talk about the definition of ignorant.
gordonm888
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October 11th, 2017 at 9:39:01 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

GordonM888,

I understand and appreciate your point, but even though we seem to disagree on the fundamental outcome of our point, we are making the same point! My point is that, if the employer does not order the player to stand, then the player has the right to do whatever the player wants to do.

Granted, you can refrain from consuming the product if you really want to. However, if the players are allowed to do that, "At work," then who are we to say they shouldn't?



"if the employer does not order the player to stand, then the player has the right to do whatever the player wants to do."

Mission, I agree with you on this. I certainly agree that there is a problem with the way that blacks are sometimes treated by the police and I can understand why any American, and especially African Americans, might want to protest that. It is the NFL and their clubs that are trying to have it both ways - they want the good-will and financial patronage of all Americans but they also allow their salaried employees to make political gestures during the flag ceremony that are divisive and are offensive to some part of their fan base.

To be fair, the clubs do have an announcement that is something like "Please rise for the national anthem" but that is not an order and the clubs clearly are not requiring their players to remain standing.

Should the policemen at the games who provide security be allowed to make a politically-motivated gesture towards the NFL players who are kneeling? The policemen are also on-duty and wearing the uniform of their employer. Should they be allowed to turn their backs on the NFL players as a counter-protest? To give the finger to the players? To draw their clubs and brandish them?

I have led a business unit of a private entity with 730 employees that did business (R&D) with the federal government. We had zero restrictions on what employees did and said on their own time (as long as it was legal) but if an on-duty employee made some kind of public statement on a political/religious issue (unrelated to job content) that might be offensive to someone then I would have intervened. I recognized that we were not in the business of offending our customers or the general public, and that any on-duty employee was a representative of our business.

The NFL would be wise to get out of the business of offending a segment of their fan base on issues that are unrelated to football. Or simply accept the reality that fans will vote their pocketbooks.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Romes
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October 11th, 2017 at 9:49:04 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

...Let me ask a question: Why does the NFL display the American flag and ask people to sing the Star Spangled Banner? No law or governmental agency requires that they do that. Answer. They display the flag in order to honor it. That is their intention, isn't it?...

Actually, they never used to televise the flag, but the government paid them to do that as part of a recruitment thing, according to other posters on these forums (other thread).

They're also dishonoring the flag by putting it horizontal, on the ground. #FlagCode
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Mission146
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October 11th, 2017 at 10:01:01 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888


Mission, I agree with you on this. I certainly agree that there is a problem with the way that blacks are sometimes treated by the police and I can understand why any American, and especially African Americans, might want to protest that. It is the NFL and their clubs that are trying to have it both ways - they want the good-will and financial patronage of all Americans but they also allow their salaried employees to make political gestures during the flag ceremony that are divisive and are offensive to some part of their fan base.



I agree with everything above.

Quote:

To be fair, the clubs do have an announcement that is something like "Please rise for the national anthem" but that is not an order and the clubs clearly are not requiring their players to remain standing.



Technically, they could be viewed as requesting everyone, players included, to do it.

The owners are between a rock, a hard place, the wall of a cave and a sheet of triple reinforced titanium alloy. Any action will offend a subset of the population, inaction will offend a subset of the population, we are such divided.

This must be what America being made great looks like.

The only winning being done is on the field, unless you're the Browns, of course.

Quote:

Should the policemen at the games who provide security be allowed to make a politically-motivated gesture towards the NFL players who are kneeling? The policemen are also on-duty and wearing the uniform of their employer. Should they be allowed to turn their backs on the NFL players as a counter-protest? To give the finger to the players? To draw their clubs and brandish them?



I suppose it would technically depend on the directives (or lack thereof) of the PD. Although, it does warrant mentioning that the PD is a civil service function, so there are sensible and objective reasons why one should present oneself as politically neutral when being paid by the tax dollar. In their private lives, sure, whatever they want. However, the tax dollar comes from most everyone and different people have different opinions, so we don't want to marry political grandstands with civil service.

I think, in a manner of speaking, that is part of the problem in the first place.

Thus, in my opinion and with all due respect, your paragraph above is a false equivocation.

Quote:

I have led a business unit of a private entity with 730 employees that did business (R&D) with the federal government. We had zero restrictions on what employees did and said on their own time (as long as it was legal) but if an on-duty employee made some kind of public statement on a political/religious issue (unrelated to job content) that might be offensive to someone then I would have intervened. I recognized that we were not in the business of offending our customers or the general public, and that any on-duty employee was a representative of our business.



Well, that's fine. I suppose my opinion depends on your specific definition of, "Intervene," which also probably depends on the specific context of the action...so we're kind of speaking in generalities when only specifics would apply on that one if we continue.

Quote:

The NFL would be wise to get out of the business of offending a segment of their fan base on issues that are unrelated to football. Or simply accept the reality that fans will vote their pocketbooks.



They'll do that anyway, and inaction will offend just as many as action...potentially. I'd be having my Marketing guys working on a statistical analysis of the best course of action right now. If not individual teams, I imagine the NFL might already be doing that or have hired such an agency to do so.

Sometimes the best you can do is offend the least number of people, especially in this climate.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
billryan
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October 11th, 2017 at 10:22:06 AM permalink
What's next? NFL players only work one hour a week?
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Mission146
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October 11th, 2017 at 10:28:31 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

What's next? NFL players only work one hour a week?



I just got signed to the Raiders, so now I....

...will finish this post next week.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
billryan
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Mission146
October 11th, 2017 at 12:02:19 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I just got signed to the Raiders, so now I....

...will finish this post next week.




Be sure to check in here and find out how you should be spending your time and money.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
billryan
billryan
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October 11th, 2017 at 1:27:29 PM permalink
Just go back to the way it was before 2009, when teams ran onto the field after the National Anthem.

By the way, anyone who feels Americans shouldn't peacefully protest is living in the wrong country. Plenty of countries that you would fit in just fine. Perhaps not as many as there once were, thanks to our military, but still too many.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
boymimbo
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beachbumbabs
October 11th, 2017 at 8:40:29 PM permalink
All of this is blown out of proportion. We might as well talk about Survivor, or the Kardashians, or the political views of each New York Yankee. Who cares?!!!

Americans have their first Amendment rights for free speech -- it is not against any law for a civilian to not stand for the National Anthem -- therefore one can do whatever you want when you hear the National Anthem, include kneel in peaceful protest, sing in tune for support, salute soldiers, or stand there with your cap on and your arms folded.

You have the right to be offended. I get offended every day by what people do and say, on TV, on this forum, on the internet. But I support the right for you to say it, as long as any fact you present is actually correct. You do not have the right to stop the players from not standing. The only thing that the NFL or its team can do is put it in their code that they must stand and create rules and fines if they do not. You have the right to boycott the NFL, to booh when they kneel, or do whatever you want short of hate speech.

Let's recall that this controversy didn't take off until el Presidentus ignoramus twittered his crap. The National Anthem didn't get aired and players didn't come out until the military started paying the NFL for sponsoring acts of patriotism. In short, the national anthem was politicized by the military, the NFL took the money and players started appearing on the field for the anthem, less than 9 years ago.

Just don't play the anthem at the beginning of games and take the politics out of football (and other national sports) -- problem solved. As people stated, the players are paid to entertain. Why is a national anthem part of the entertainment? Why is patriotism tied to a game? Why don't we play the national anthem at the beginning of each work day? Why isn't it played at 8am on every TV and radio station in the country? Why don't we have pictures of our current president hanging from the top of each of our rooms, staring down on us?

It's because you are "free". We don't have to do anything when we hear the anthem, and that includes NFL players.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
rxwine
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October 11th, 2017 at 9:20:37 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Why don't we have pictures of our current president hanging from the top of each of our rooms, staring down on us?



How 'bout I just put the clown from "IT". I won't be able to sleep otherwise.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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October 12th, 2017 at 4:46:31 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

How 'bout I just put the clown from "IT". I won't be able to sleep otherwise.

Speaking of clowns, the first episode of American Horror Stories this season (it's a good series) is called election night. They kind of recreate the election as people watched it. It's always funny to see a bunch of people acting like clowns and having meltdowns over Trump winning. On top of the people acting like clowns, they deal with scary frown clowns too.




♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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October 12th, 2017 at 7:25:59 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo


It's because you are "free". We don't have to do anything when we hear the anthem, and that includes NFL players.



And we don't have to watch the NFL games or spend our money on NFL merchandise. Because we are free. We can vote our pocketbooks.

This argument is not about what people "have to do" or "don't have to do", and people trivialize the discussion by framing it in terms of rights and phrases such as "have to do." I think it is more about living with the consequences of what you choose to do.

Do the NFL employees who handle the US flag during the pre-game ceremony have a right to spit on the flag as they handle it? Yes, they have the right to do that. I agree that they don't "have to" avoid spitting on the flag. But if they choose to do that then I am going to find some other way to spend the hours of my life other than watching the NFL on television.

Does a white NFL player have the right to make a white nationalist gesture during the national anthem? Yes, he has freedom of thought and freedom of expression, the ACLU and Supreme Court have agreed on that many times. But I will choose to not watch the event and will tune out the NFL if they do that.

Do 'performance artists' have the right to stage a performance in a theater where one artist dresses up like Jesus Christ (or Muhammed) and lies down on the ground while a 2nd artist defecates into the mouth of "Jesus?" (or "Muhammed?") Yes, they have the right to do that, but excuse me if I don't buy tickets or tee-shirts. I would tend to boycott any future performance at that theater or any future event that those actors participated in. I will vote my pocketbook - not at the suggestion of the Narcissist-In-Chief - but because that has always been my policy and it just makes sense.

Ultimately, it takes courage to take a political stand that will upset some people -because you will lose the good-will of the people you upset and that ultimately diminishes, or at least alters, your prospects for future success in some endeavors. It happened to Curt Flood, and apparently has happened to Colin Kaepernick and is now happening, at least temporarily in a small way, to the NFL. But, I don't think it is particularly courageous to whine about it.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
RS
RS
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Rigondeaux
October 12th, 2017 at 2:50:42 PM permalink
It's simple -- they have the right to kneel during the anthem if they want to and we have the right to bitch about it if we want to.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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October 12th, 2017 at 3:10:25 PM permalink
I hope that the entire Dallas Cowboys team kneels!!
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
gamerfreak
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October 12th, 2017 at 5:13:26 PM permalink
Quote: RS

It's simple -- they have the right to kneel during the anthem if they want to and we have the right to bitch about it if we want to.


This sums up my opinion on this.

However where I take issue is when the government tries to impose those beliefs on it’s citizens. Trump counts as government, and suggesting a boycott on a private business because he disagrees with them on a political issue is an egregiously bad use of the bully pulpit.

OP suggesting that citizens who don’t follow the beliefs of the government should have their citizenship revoked is textbook fascism.
billryan
billryan
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October 12th, 2017 at 8:49:28 PM permalink
Quote: RS

It's simple -- they have the right to kneel during the anthem if they want to and we have the right to bitch about it if we want to.



Agree completely, but your bitching might seem more sincere if you actually boycotted the product, instead of betting on it.
Talk is cheap.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
RS
RS
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October 12th, 2017 at 10:53:17 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Agree completely, but your bitching might seem more sincere if you actually boycotted the product, instead of betting on it.
Talk is cheap.


This actually makes me laugh.

Betting on the NFL supports them, now? Get real.
terapined
terapined
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October 13th, 2017 at 5:40:47 AM permalink
Quote: RS



Betting on the NFL supports them, now? Get real.

absolutely. Its eyes on the tv to see if you win
The big money the NFL earns depends on TV. The more eyeballs on the game, the more networks pay to broadcast.
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