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bobbartop
bobbartop
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November 28th, 2016 at 7:59:01 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Well, Bob, if posting on this board is a bad thing, then why are you posting?

*Logic burn" Bob goes down in flames.




Imagine if you had not spent all that time in solitary.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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November 28th, 2016 at 8:01:16 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Good in theory. Bad in practice. So we catch a rapist. Convict him. Then deport him back to Mexico. So how do we stop him from getting over the border the second time? We failed the first time obviously.



First, you hand them over to the Mexican authorities who should be keeping them in jail. Second, we will not stop 100% of them from returning but we will stop some fraction of them. That's better than paying $40,000-$70,000/yr per prisoner to keep these felons in our state and federal prisons.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
bobbartop
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November 28th, 2016 at 8:18:02 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

First, you hand them over to the Mexican authorities who should be keeping them in jail. Second, we will not stop 100% of them from returning but we will stop some fraction of them. That's better than paying $40,000-$70,000/yr per prisoner to keep these felons in our state and federal prisons.




The Mexican authorities are not going to keep them in jail. The Mexican authorities are just as bad as the guys you're handing over to them. A well-connected gang member is just going to bribe his way out. They couldn't even keep the top guy in jail there, why are they going to keep anyone in jail? Send them back and it's back to business as usual. The authorities there make money off the traffic too. Don't kid yourself.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
RS
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November 28th, 2016 at 9:49:10 PM permalink
Put the illegal immigrants (or only illegal immigrant criminals) in prison in the US.

They are charged rent, food, and anything else they want (ie: outdoor time).

Businesses hire prisoners for their labor. The prisoners are indirectly paid by the businesses, so the prisoners can pay their rent/food/etc.

It sure beats the alternative (slavery for life), although that could be an option for those unwilling to work.


Granted, it ain't a perfect system and I'm sure it'd have problems with it and better ways to go about it. But sending them back to Mexico or wherever they're from isn't gonna work....they'll just come back. Putting them in prison and taking out taxpayer money isn't good either. Solution: Put them in prison and make them work.



RE: Death penalty -- I'm against it. For one, I'd hate for an innocent person to be put to death. And if a person is guilty, he should have to suffer the rest of his life. But I don't think killing someone because they killed someone else is the right way to do it (although I certainly see why people support the death penalty). I think Guantanamo Bay is a better place than the electric chair, for those supposedly deserving the death penalty. But no system is perfect.
bobbartop
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November 28th, 2016 at 10:06:45 PM permalink
Quote: RS


RE: Death penalty -- I'm against it. For one, I'd hate for an innocent person to be put to death. And if a person is guilty, he should have to suffer the rest of his life. But I don't think killing someone because they killed someone else is the right way to do it (although I certainly see why people support the death penalty). I think Guantanamo Bay is a better place than the electric chair, for those supposedly deserving the death penalty. But no system is perfect.



As much as I favor the death penalty, (unless, of course, it was ME about to be fried), I too have considered the dilemma of the rare innocent person getting put down. What if we were to change the standard of proof? In other words, as it stands now, you can get death if you are found guilty beyond a REASONABLE doubt. What if we were to raise that standard to beyond a SHADOW of a doubt? Anything else, you get life with or without the possibility of parole. It's difficult for me to imagine a qualifier, but if a whole bunch of witnesses see the culprit do the murder and there is no time he is out of sight between the crime and being taken into custody, and if he confesses, then he gets death. Otherwise, he gets life. Would that work?

I also don't agree with the argument that getting a life sentence will make them suffer more. Because if you were to offer the average death row inmate a choice, he would opt for life in a New York second. For most of them, death is the worst option.

Here's another interesting twist. In California it takes so long to kill them that some of them would rather be on death row than in general population. That's because there's three parts to death row, and one of them is pretty decent if you don't cause trouble. So you can have 20 years of appeals in the good section of death row and it's better than being with the gladiators on the main line.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
billryan
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November 29th, 2016 at 12:41:31 AM permalink
Quote: CasinoKiller

What type of idiotic generalization is this??? Deleted.



I'm guessing you don't follow current events, as the quote isn't mine. They are those of Jeff Sessions, the man trump has proposed to be our next Attorney General.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
CasinoKiller
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November 29th, 2016 at 12:58:38 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

You don't even know how many dudes walk away from the release center. They just did a nickel, get released to pre-release, with like 60 days to go, and they JUMP. They can't help themselves. They can't wait to light up. You don't know wtf you're talking about.

And look who's talking. You say I don't cite my sources, while you apparently are just spouting off from your own mouth. Cite YOUR sources. Try "Prop 47" and "3-judge court overcrowding".




"They can't help themselves. They can't wait to light up. You don't know wtf you're talking about." WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN???

How many people have you known that were released on OR that told you how they couldn't wait to go commit more crimes? How does your brain convince you that this is a legitimate thing you are saying and that you don't sound like a crazy person? How can you say "they" like you know all of the tens of thousands of inmates in California. I live here also, and used to study Political Science at one of the best universities in the country here...but what do I know. I know all about Prop 47 and couldn't wait to vote Yes. Do you know how many non-violent offenders we have in prison? Do you know how much it costs to incarcerate someone vs. how much it costs to educate them at a CSU?? Maybe you should look that up, cause YOU and I as taxpayers are footing that bill.
What goes around always comes back around
bobbartop
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November 29th, 2016 at 1:54:42 AM permalink
Quote: CasinoKiller

"They can't help themselves. They can't wait to light up. You don't know wtf you're talking about." WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN???

How many people have you known that were released on OR that told you how they couldn't wait to go commit more crimes? How does your brain convince you that this is a legitimate thing you are saying and that you don't sound like a crazy person? How can you say "they" like you know all of the tens of thousands of inmates in California. I live here also, and used to study Political Science at one of the best universities in the country here...but what do I know. I know all about Prop 47 and couldn't wait to vote Yes. Do you know how many non-violent offenders we have in prison? Do you know how much it costs to incarcerate someone vs. how much it costs to educate them at a CSU?? Maybe you should look that up, cause YOU and I as taxpayers are footing that bill.




I can see this is futile, I see all the warning signs, I will never get anywhere in this conversation with you. Studied political science? One of the best universities in the country? lol GTFO Let me guess, you're 24 years old and just graduated.

Since you voted for Prop 47, let me know how that works out. Let me know how it works out when you come home in the middle of the day and some "non-violent" burglar is cleaning out your pad and you surprise him. Maybe he'll offer you a bouquet of flowers. Smoke a joint together, break out some songs from the 60s, I think it's so groovy now that people are finally gettin together.

I'm a little confused, you mentioned the cost of incarceration compared to "educating them at a CSU". Are you supposing that education is the key? Do you think the only thing keeping them from a life of crime is a formal education and a diploma? Because if that is what you think, I'd demand a refund on your tuition if I were you. Here's the reality. Some people are just no damn good and would rather steal and rob than be given free money. And most of them will hurt you, hurt you bad, if you try to interrupt their deeds for the day.

You blew it. Prop 47 was for suckers.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
CasinoKiller
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November 29th, 2016 at 2:30:17 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

I can see this is futile, I see all the warning signs, I will never get anywhere in this conversation with you. Studied political science? One of the best universities in the country? lol GTFO Let me guess, you're 24 years old and just graduated.

Since you voted for Prop 47, let me know how that works out. Let me know how it works out when you come home in the middle of the day and some "non-violent" burglar is cleaning out your pad and you surprise him. Maybe he'll offer you a bouquet of flowers. Smoke a joint together, break out some songs from the 60s, I think it's so groovy now that people are finally gettin together.

I'm a little confused, you mentioned the cost of incarceration compared to "educating them at a CSU". Are you supposing that education is the key? Do you think the only thing keeping them from a life of crime is a formal education and a diploma? Because if that is what you think, I'd demand a refund on your tuition if I were you. Here's the reality. Some people are just no damn good and would rather steal and rob than be given free money. And most of them will hurt you, hurt you bad, if you try to interrupt their deeds for the day.

You blew it. Prop 47 was for suckers.




Can you answer my questions though? Has anything remotely like what you described actually happened to you?
What goes around always comes back around
RS
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November 29th, 2016 at 2:42:19 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

As much as I favor the death penalty, (unless, of course, it was ME about to be fried), I too have considered the dilemma of the rare innocent person getting put down. What if we were to change the standard of proof? In other words, as it stands now, you can get death if you are found guilty beyond a REASONABLE doubt. What if we were to raise that standard to beyond a SHADOW of a doubt? Anything else, you get life with or without the possibility of parole. It's difficult for me to imagine a qualifier, but if a whole bunch of witnesses see the culprit do the murder and there is no time he is out of sight between the crime and being taken into custody, and if he confesses, then he gets death. Otherwise, he gets life. Would that work?

I also don't agree with the argument that getting a life sentence will make them suffer more. Because if you were to offer the average death row inmate a choice, he would opt for life in a New York second. For most of them, death is the worst option.

Here's another interesting twist. In California it takes so long to kill them that some of them would rather be on death row than in general population. That's because there's three parts to death row, and one of them is pretty decent if you don't cause trouble. So you can have 20 years of appeals in the good section of death row and it's better than being with the gladiators on the main line.



Beyond a reasonable doubt or shadow of a doubt....it's really all the same thing (IMO). I've never served on a jury, but I'd think more likely than not the person on a jury is going to 'vote' whichever way they feel is more likely....not "beyond a reasonable doubt".

It doesn't really matter, anyway. You can add on a bunch of qualifiers or whatever else. There will (unfortunately) always be errors. How many times have you (generic) been absolutely 1000% sure of something, just to figure out you are completely and utterly wrong? Being "sure" that something happened doesn't mean it actually happened.

And even if they actually did do it, I still don't like the idea of capital punishment. Then again, I've never been in that type of situation where someone I know was murdered.....perhaps then I'd feel different, I'm not sure. I just know I don't want to be in that situation.
RS
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November 29th, 2016 at 2:45:18 AM permalink
Quote: CasinoKiller

Can you answer my questions though? Has anything remotely like what you described actually happened to you?



I'm not sure what you're insinuating. In either case, can you cite your sources? ;)
bobbartop
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November 29th, 2016 at 3:44:14 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Beyond a reasonable doubt or shadow of a doubt....it's really all the same thing (IMO). I've never served on a jury, but I'd think more likely than not the person on a jury is going to 'vote' whichever way they feel is more likely....not "beyond a reasonable doubt".




That's not how it works, RS. There is a big difference between reasonable doubt and shadow of a doubt. In your statement you actually added, I think, a third standard, preponderance of evidence, which is more likely than not. I'm sure you just ruined a whole semester of Evidence in two sentences. :-)

The rest of what you wrote, you just don't feel right about capital punishment. I respect that. Like I said, it's an awful deed. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Perhaps you would feel different if it was personal. It's a difficult topic. But to be clear, television and movies are just that, real life killers are not make-believe.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
SOOPOO
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November 29th, 2016 at 5:11:24 AM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Ah, so murder is wrong unless bobbartop approves of it. Thanks for clarifying what we already suspected--the bizarre calibration of your moral compass.



Seriously..... You just get back from a suspension for personal insults.... And you post this? Please explain how this is not a personal insult aimed at bobbartop?
RS
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November 29th, 2016 at 5:46:29 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

That's not how it works, RS. There is a big difference between reasonable doubt and shadow of a doubt. In your statement you actually added, I think, a third standard, preponderance of evidence, which is more likely than not. I'm sure you just ruined a whole semester of Evidence in two sentences. :-)



In theory, I agree. In practice, I don't think so.

I think if you ask people if they're 99% sure about something or 99.999% sure about it or 98% sure.......many would answer the same way for 98, 99, and 99.999. Point being, to most people, it's all the same thing. They understand there is a difference, but don't understand what the difference is or how big of a difference it really is. Plus, it's highly subjective. For one "beyond a shadow of a doubt" is going to be damn near certainty, and for another it's a 9/10 shot at being correct. (Not that anyone can really "calculate" the odds they're correct or something like that.)

Quote: bobbartop

The rest of what you wrote, you just don't feel right about capital punishment. I respect that. Like I said, it's an awful deed. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Perhaps you would feel different if it was personal. It's a difficult topic. But to be clear, television and movies are just that, real life killers are not make-believe.


Indeed.
billryan
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November 29th, 2016 at 8:12:42 AM permalink
I've served on one jury. Was the foreman,in fact although that's not relevant to this. It was a simple case- did a man violate an order of protection against his ex wife. There were six of us on the jury. First vote was 4-2 guilty. We then started discussions and the two against said that while they thought the guy did it, the county hadnt proven the case. Suddenly it was 3-3. There was disagreement over what the responding officer said. We went back to court and had them read the testimony. Now it was 4-2 Not guilty.
We all agreed that he probably did it and was a real scumbag but in the end we let him go. I hope that's how most juries work. Put aside our personal feelings and give the defendant the benefit of the doubt.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
bobbartop
bobbartop
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November 29th, 2016 at 10:43:53 AM permalink
Quote: RS

In theory, I agree. In practice, I don't think so.

I think if you ask people if they're 99% sure about something or 99.999% sure about it or 98% sure.......many would answer the same way for 98, 99, and 99.999. Point being, to most people, it's all the same thing. They understand there is a difference, but don't understand what the difference is or how big of a difference it really is. Plus, it's highly subjective. For one "beyond a shadow of a doubt" is going to be damn near certainty, and for another it's a 9/10 shot at being correct. (Not that anyone can really "calculate" the odds they're correct or something like that.)




What you say may be true to a lot of lay people, but when the time comes for jury instructions, each side and the judge are going to give them a lecture about evidence and different burdens and standards of proof. It's imperative.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
Joeshlabotnik
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November 29th, 2016 at 11:11:34 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Seriously..... You just get back from a suspension for personal insults.... And you post this? Please explain how this is not a personal insult aimed at bobbartop?



Repeating what he said is not an insult. He advocated the murder of gang members (by other gang members). Therefore, he's not opposed to the murder of certain people, which certainly Trumps his supposed outrage at criminality in general.
RonC
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November 29th, 2016 at 12:51:33 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Repeating what he said is not an insult. He advocated the murder of gang members (by other gang members). Therefore, he's not opposed to the murder of certain people, which certainly Trumps his supposed outrage at criminality in general.



Joe, I know you like to see things done right. Trump need not be capitalized in this instance.
Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
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November 29th, 2016 at 2:04:40 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

Joe, I know you like to see things done right. Trump need not be capitalized in this instance.



True, but I chose to. Trump is a hypocrite about crime, as he decries the supposed depredations of Mexicans, Muslims, etc. while being a criminal fraud, a liar, and perhaps a rapist. So what bob said about himself seemed very Trumpish, thus my choice of the capitalized word.

I'm actually in favor of bringing "trump" into the language with new meanings. "Trump"--any disgusting substance, act, saying, etc. Synonymous with "excrement." To "trump" somebody. To cheat them or to sexually assault them. And so on.
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