Nareed
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August 3rd, 2010 at 11:06:49 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Plus the old problem of proving a negative.



Yes, so why does it require faith not to believe in things for which there is no evidence?
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DJTeddyBear
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August 3rd, 2010 at 11:17:27 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Plus the old problem of proving a negative. We can assume Hitler, Elvis, and others were actually dead all along since another body has not showed up, but while the claims were hot that they were still alive it was hard to prove they were not.

Anthony Curtis had a recent piece about Howard Hughes. The claim is he faked his own death and has died relatively recently. (Just a couple years ago?)
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Mosca
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August 3rd, 2010 at 12:44:45 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

You don't believe in Dice Gods?



LOL, you mean, "LUCK"? (hehe)

I agree that superstitions are a cultural touchstone. I don't believe IN them, but I believe they are useful for sorting and categorizing experiences, for keeping connections with others' experiences. Me and the Mrs always make a big deal about saying "god bless you", not due to any belief or disbelief (she is EXTREMELY pious, goes to church several times a week), but because it's fun. She'll say, "God bless you, lord knows you need it." I'll say, "God has already blessed me with you." And she rolls her eyes.
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Toes14
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August 3rd, 2010 at 10:12:38 PM permalink
The guy you're thinking of is Jeff Meldrum, Professor of Anthropology at Idaho State University.

I'll risk taking a hit to my credibility here by saying that I believe it's likely Bigfoot does exist. My reasons for this are fairly simple. I've seen dozens of film clips of reported sightings, and 98% are pretty obviously hoaxes or fakes. But some of the other 2% show very different movement that doesn't appear to be a guy in a suit. I've also read thousands of reports from across North America, some on the same day at locations hundreds of miles apart. Many of these show similar tendencies in habitat and behavior, but not all come across exactly the same. There is enough variation in them to represent a normal distribution in my opinion.

Lastly, it's a big world out there, and there are still a lot of areas where people don't normally go to. Most people do their camping in established parks, on the weekends, and are asleep by midnight. Even hunters usually go to the same areas they are familiar with. I guess that's enough for me to believe in the possibility that they do exist.

If you want to look into it, I recommend www.bfro.net.

PS - sorry for getting the thread side-tracked.
"Bite my Glorious Golden Ass!" - Bender Bending Rodriguez
odiousgambit
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August 4th, 2010 at 4:18:15 AM permalink
Quote: Toes14

The guy you're thinking of is Jeff Meldrum, Professor of Anthropology at Idaho State University.



Thanks. Apparently he is paying the price:

http://cbs5.com/watercooler/water.cooler.Jeffrey.2.274282.html
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
FleaStiff
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August 4th, 2010 at 4:28:37 AM permalink
Why can't he study crop circles or The Cardiff Giant instead?

Someone gets a bit tipsy in a bar and goes out in the fields with his mate and tramps down crop circles... and a new cult is born!

Plant a few footprints in mud ... wait for a tourist to go running to the nearest Ranger ... anthropologists come running.

Look at that cult that wanted everyone sick on election day so cult members would win: all those public health scientists never once thought of deliberate contamination despite the local headlines and bitter feelings. Those experts knew they were right!
Toes14
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August 4th, 2010 at 8:01:52 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Thanks. Apparently he is paying the price:

http://cbs5.com/watercooler/water.cooler.Jeffrey.2.274282.html



Wow, I hadn't heard about that development. Thanks for the update. I wonder how much of that is motivated by 'office politics'? For what it's worth, in all of the TV shows I've seen him in, he doesn't come across like a crazy guy. It sounds like he truly wants to apply real scientific methods of analysis in his research.
"Bite my Glorious Golden Ass!" - Bender Bending Rodriguez
Nareed
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August 5th, 2010 at 7:35:36 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Someone gets a bit tipsy in a bar and goes out in the fields with his mate and tramps down crop circles... and a new cult is born!



It's an old cult, really. The cult of ignorance. It can be summed up in one sentence: I don't immediately understand this, therefore it is supernatural.

Same thing with bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and other mythical beasts.

Consider, if there are populations of big apes in the forests of the Pacific northwest, some positive traces, at least, of their prescence would have been found by now. Droppings if nothing else. But also other things. Anthropoids are a well-known, well-understood kind of animal. We know they're social and greagrious, they tend to spread to hunt and forage over large areas, they employ extensive vocalization in a loud manner.

It would take any half-assed, amateurish expedition a few days at most to find such a group of animals given a "credible" sighting. They're not looking for small birds, cave-dwelling nocturnal rodents, or small bugs that crawl under rocks 99% of their time.

If such animals existed not only would they have been found and studied by now, but every zoo in the world would have a bigfoot exhibit.
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Wizard
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August 5th, 2010 at 10:38:20 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

It's an old cult, really. The cult of ignorance. It can be summed up in one sentence: I don't immediately understand this, therefore it is supernatural....



Very well put. I agree 100%.

About such things as Bigfoot and aliens, funny how the sightings are always by simpletons who were out in sticks specifically looking for them. You never near about intelligent skeptics witnessing such things accidentally.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
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August 5th, 2010 at 10:55:23 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

You never hear about intelligent skeptics witnessing such things accidentally.

Sometimes you do.

There are cases of commercial and Air Force pilots spotting UFOs...
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Nareed
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August 5th, 2010 at 11:00:28 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Sometimes you do.

There are cases of commercial and Air Force pilots spotting UFOs...



Yes, but in most such cases the term UFO is taken literally, not as shorthand for "We're being visited by self-aware, technologically advanced aliens from another planet."

A well-known case of a UFO report is John Glenn's description of bright, shining objects orbiting the Earth very near his capsule, and keeping up with him. Later the objects were identified. Astronauts ahve seen them innumerable times since then. A very fitting name for such objects is "The constellation Urion." :)
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odiousgambit
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August 5th, 2010 at 11:15:38 AM permalink
Now, in the matter of UFOs, certainly you can say *most* intelligent people would put odds in favor of their being life on other planets, intelligent life likely too. Now whether there is evidence we have been visited, I'll let someone else be the advocate for that [g].

As for myself, seems plausible, evidence is dissatisfying.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Nareed
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August 5th, 2010 at 11:33:37 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Now, in the matter of UFOs, certainly you can say *most* intelligent people would put odds in favor of their being life on other planets, intelligent life likely too.



I'd say it's very likely indeed, but I'm not sure I'd put money on the question. Predicting when evidence of such life will be found is impossible. Even the Drake equation requires arbitrary assumptions.

Even so, I do run SETI@home. Hope springs eternal.

Oh, I also believe eventually people will learn how to build a viable fussion reactor, but I woulnd't bet on it happening in my lifetime.

Quote:

Now whether there is evidence we have been visited, I'll let someone else be the advocate for that [g].



There isn't any, not even any that remotely points towards the possibility.
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Wizard
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August 5th, 2010 at 11:36:55 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Sometimes you do.

There are cases of commercial and Air Force pilots spotting UFOs...



Note that I said "aliens" not "UFOs." There is a big difference. A UFO is anything unidentified, thus the U. Even Dennis Kucinich has seen a UFO.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Nareed
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August 5th, 2010 at 11:57:40 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Note that I said "aliens" not "UFOs." There is a big difference. A UFO is anything unidentified, thus the U. Even Dennis Kucinich has seen a UFO.



Everyone has seen UFOs, I'm sure. There are lots of things visible, from time to time, in the sky. many are rare and thus unfamiliar to the vast majority of people. I've seen plenty (but then I'm in the habit of looking up at aircraft, so I spend more time than usual watching the sky).

The trouble is the cult of ignorance.

Years ago I read a few books on UFOs by a Spanish journalist named J. J. Benitez. They were very entertaining, but the man's methods were all wrong. His big flaw was that he believed any sighting of a UFO was both legitimate and an alien spaceship. He never questioned what else any kind of sighting could be (to be sure some of his most outrageous "investigations" make fairly passable SF stories).

He also blamed the usual suspects for "supressing" more information about alien visitors. in particular he liked to blame Carl Sagan, which struck me as really, really odd.

For the record I also have read some of Velikovsky's books. They're very funny. Also good examples of how science doesn't work.
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