reno
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April 28th, 2015 at 1:42:35 PM permalink
Due to the Freddie Gray protests in Baltimore, tomorrow's Orioles game will be closed to the public. That's right, two teams playing ball in an empty stadium. Surreal and strange indeed.

Is this an unprecedented event for any MLB, NFL, NBA, or NHL game? Is it necessary? Would it make more sense just to cancel the game entirely?


***


Gabes22
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April 28th, 2015 at 1:51:02 PM permalink
What would make more sense IMO, is to just reverse the locations of the games this early in the season. Later in the season the Orioles are coming to Chicago for a 3 game set, after a cursory check of my calendar, it is July 3-5. They should have played these 3 in Chicago, and the 3 on the July 4th weekend in Baltimore. Keep in mind as well, I don't know what issues the Orioles have had with rain outs, but the Whites Sox have one from Saturday they need to make up with KC already. I was just at the game Sunday, where they finished a game that was suspended due to rain Friday Night. The ramifications of this decision can truly play into the integrity of the MLB season. While the game tomorrow will not have fans in the seats, they still will require Baltimore Police personnel to provide security for the players getting to and from the stadium and at this point in time is a waste of resources for the BCPD.
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RonC
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April 28th, 2015 at 2:16:01 PM permalink
They could do better, but it is an all-around bad situation.

I would not play ANY games in Baltimore until the situation is under control.

Baltimore loses--the money spent on the games moved to Tampa will not help the local economy and there will be no money spent on the game played at home; it will help no one economically. The state will also lose income taxes on game checks from both teams for the games that were moved.

Losers causing more losses. The issue leading to the protests needs to be handled, but what the hell does looting the CVS have to do with it?
Gabes22
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April 28th, 2015 at 2:28:23 PM permalink
Quote: RonC



Losers causing more losses. The issue leading to the protests needs to be handled, but what the hell does looting the CVS have to do with it?



It discourages reputable businesses from opening up in these neighborhoods
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beachbumbabs
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April 28th, 2015 at 3:02:41 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

They could do better, but it is an all-around bad situation.

I would not play ANY games in Baltimore until the situation is under control.

Baltimore loses--the money spent on the games moved to Tampa will not help the local economy and there will be no money spent on the game played at home; it will help no one economically. The state will also lose income taxes on game checks from both teams for the games that were moved.

Losers causing more losses. The issue leading to the protests needs to be handled, but what the hell does looting the CVS have to do with it?



Totally agree. No large gatherings until further notice.

HUGE difference between "protests" and "riots" (agree with what you said about those terms). Until the RIOTS stop, all public gathering permits, scheduled or impromptu, have to be suspended. Close the churches, bars, playgrounds, etc. for the week. If it gets any worse, shut down EVERY cell tower in the area for 48 hours on the public frequencies (police/fire/etc. use different frequencies - at least have them available and can issue radios), and block the IP's of cable devices in the area. Road block major intersections in the most violent area. Stop metro/rail/bus service from 6pm to 6am. And stop reporting it; archive the footage if you have to, but a media blackout would frustrate and discourage people prone to join in. If they can't get there to mob up, and can't coordinate their activities, the trouble will dissipate. It would be the equivalent of a hurricane aftermath.
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GWAE
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April 28th, 2015 at 3:06:26 PM permalink
Bbb I would love to see that happen. I am so sick of seeing these riots. How does being violent because you are mad about violence solve anything. I feel sick to my stomach to see these small business owners lives destroyed.
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GWAE
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April 28th, 2015 at 3:08:17 PM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

What would make more sense IMO, is to just reverse the locations of the games this early in the season. Later in the season the Orioles are coming to Chicago for a 3 game set, after a cursory check of my calendar, it is July 3-5. They should have played these 3 in Chicago, and the 3 on the July 4th weekend in Baltimore. Keep in mind as well, I don't know what issues the Orioles have had with rain outs, but the Whites Sox have one from Saturday they need to make up with KC already. I was just at the game Sunday, where they finished a game that was suspended due to rain Friday Night. The ramifications of this decision can truly play into the integrity of the MLB season. While the game tomorrow will not have fans in the seats, they still will require Baltimore Police personnel to provide security for the players getting to and from the stadium and at this point in time is a waste of resources for the BCPD.



4th of July weekend is a holiday weekend. It would not be fair to the people of Chicago to have the game moved. There are probably a lot of people going to the game from out of town who would get screwed.

Hell for all I care, they should make Baltimore forfeit any game that they can not play at home.
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Gabes22
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April 28th, 2015 at 3:14:04 PM permalink
FYI, I have tickets to the game on 7/5 and would have had zero problem with them moving it. They would have allowed me to exchange tickets for another game
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beachbumbabs
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April 28th, 2015 at 3:18:25 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

4th of July weekend is a holiday weekend. It would not be fair to the people of Chicago to have the game moved. There are probably a lot of people going to the game from out of town who would get screwed.

Hell for all I care, they should make Baltimore forfeit any game that they can not play at home.



IMO, big difference between cancelling a game, and playing a game without spectators. It could still be broadcast in the bars and on tv, but they wouldn't be providing a venue for trouble to develop. Can't see punishing the team (or the bettors) by making them forfeit. It would be just like an away game to the locals.
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Gabes22
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April 28th, 2015 at 3:23:16 PM permalink
IMO however, if it is dangerous enough to keep the public from the stadium or the game, it is dangerous enough to keep the players from there. Especially since they will require police escorts to and from the stadium and probably to guard every entrance to make sure these rioters don't enter it either
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AZDuffman
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April 28th, 2015 at 3:30:43 PM permalink
Was discussing this with a text buddy. I think the Pirates had the modern record-low during the G-20 several years back. While that had the sporadic riots that usually has, it was more a crappy team, terrible weather, and a city that was so blocked off that even getting there was near impossible.

The only time in "sports" I have heard of no fans is in a professional wrestiling "empty arena" match.
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Gabes22
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April 28th, 2015 at 3:33:31 PM permalink
Typically speaking the lowest attended MLB game on most teams' schedules is the 2nd home date of the season (particularly in northern cities), I think I remember a game the White Sox played in the 90s under these circumstances having an official attendance of 746
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soxfan
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April 28th, 2015 at 3:42:10 PM permalink
I wonder how long it'll take for me to get the gavel for once more engaging in truths speech, hey hey?
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GWAE
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April 28th, 2015 at 3:59:28 PM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

Typically speaking the lowest attended MLB game on most teams' schedules is the 2nd home date of the season (particularly in northern cities), I think I remember a game the White Sox played in the 90s under these circumstances having an official attendance of 746



I am recalling a game a few years back in Miami during a hurricane that had under 500 people.
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DrawingDead
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April 28th, 2015 at 4:02:27 PM permalink
Did that G-20 themed 'occupy' & 'anti-globalization' masked trashing festival involve > two dozen of the very same 'permanently-outraged-still-have-black-skimask-from-the womb-will-travel' individuals from Eugene, Santa Monica, & suchlike: yes/no? yes: -225 / no: +185
Quote: AZDuffman

Was discussing this with a text buddy. I think the Pirates had the modern record-low during the G-20 several years back. While that had the sporadic riots that usually has, it was more a crappy team, terrible weather, and a city that was so blocked off that even getting there was near impossible.

The only time in "sports" I have heard of no fans is in a professional wrestiling "empty arena" match.

Found this:
Quote:

In 2011, The Florida Marlins played the Cincinnati Reds and broke the record for the least amount of people at an MLB game. The previous record had been set in 1979 at an Oakland Athletics game with only 653 people. The reason only 347 people turned out was because of Hurricane Irene.

http://www.omgfacts.com/lists/319/11-Little-Known-Facts-About-Major-League-Baseball-ab600-1

But, how does that compare to hockey, on say a normal Wednesday in Phoenix?
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AZDuffman
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April 28th, 2015 at 4:10:57 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

Did that G-20 themed 'occupy' & 'anti-globalization' masked trashing festival involve > two dozen of the very same 'permanently-outraged-still-have-black-skimask-from-the womb-will-travel' individuals from Eugene, Santa Monica, & suchlike: yes/no? yes: -225 / no: +185 Found this: http://www.omgfacts.com/lists/319/11-Little-Known-Facts-About-Major-League-Baseball-ab600-1

But, how does that compare to hockey, in say Phoenix?



I don't know who was involved. Our boss was home watching the news and called in saying, "CLOSE NOW! And get out of the city, they are closing bridges!"

So naturally I went to the park area to see if I could see a riot.
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DrawingDead
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April 28th, 2015 at 4:25:41 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

So naturally I went to the park area to see if I could see a riot.

I understand. I've done that. Recognized three people in the 'bring camera begin insta-mob' below while munching my snacks. In my opinion they appeared to be just as boring and shallow as they'd always been from knowing them a few years earlier. Also was a spectator in a coup once. That was more fun, and I recognized no familiar "permanent student 'activist' " geeks among them. One participant noticed the obvious foreigner watching and set down his big red flag long enough to offer me a swig from his pungent fermented beverage, chat me up, and invite me to a family meal to meet his sister.
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ThatDonGuy
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April 28th, 2015 at 4:45:43 PM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

IMO however, if it is dangerous enough to keep the public from the stadium or the game, it is dangerous enough to keep the players from there.


I have a feeling that a significant reason for this is not just for the safety of the fans getting there (and back home), but out of fear that something would happen in the crowd which could spill out onto the field.
RonC
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April 28th, 2015 at 5:02:19 PM permalink
I'm listening to a bunch of incoherent rambling from uneducated morons trying to explain why they are rioting in Baltimore. It is ridiculous because the truth is that the victim is quickly being forgotten as the story becomes more about the hoodlums moving from place to place to incite riots. One data mining operation has geo-located 50 or so accounts that were active both in Ferguson and in Baltimore.

Protests are one thing; destructive riots another. 20 officers injured.

Just now I heard a clip of our wonderful President saying that he can't get funding to help the inner city folks because of the current composition of Congress. I call bullstuff. His party had two years of total control, and four years of partial control, of the Congress he rails against...what major items has he put forth and pushed hard for to actually help the issue?

There are people trying to turn the riot back into a protest. Hopefully, they are successful...
Gabes22
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April 28th, 2015 at 5:07:42 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

I have a feeling that a significant reason for this is not just for the safety of the fans getting there (and back home), but out of fear that something would happen in the crowd which could spill out onto the field.


I get that as well, and i don't know how it works in Baltimore, but in Chicago at least, and my former home in Milwaukee, most security personnel at those MLB stadiums are off duty police officers. I think they are more than capable of handling them once inside the stadium. What I would be more worried about, while attending the game would be the damage my car my incur by the hands of these rioters. However, I don't think it is a safe situation to be transporting the White Sox from their hotel to the park and B) for the Orioles who have to drive in from their respective residences. I personally, would not wish to drive my personal vehicle through a riot zone.
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AZDuffman
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April 28th, 2015 at 5:29:19 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

I understand. I've done that. Recognized three people in the 'bring camera begin insta-mob' below while munching my snacks. In my opinion they appeared to be just as boring and shallow as they'd always been from knowing them a few years earlier. Also was a spectator in a coup once. That was more fun, and I recognized no familiar "permanent student 'activist' " geeks among them. One participant noticed the obvious foreigner watching and set down his big red flag long enough to offer me a swig from his pungent fermented beverage, chat me up, and invite me to a family meal to meet his sister.



Well I knew it wasn't really "hot" at the time so I went over. It was the first night and most people in town (downtown Pittsburgh is easy to isolate) were there all day having been at some sort of job. IOW, not the kind that usually riot. But hey hey still a once-in-a-lifetime thing. Very low key, I even stepped on a cop's foot by accident and he was as fast to say pardon him as I was to say pardon me.

Smarter than my forefathers. My mother's day talked my dad to taking a ride to the Hill District to see the riots after MLK was shot. For those who do not know, that is kind of the "Harlem of Pittsburgh" being almost all black but at the top of the heap of all-black areas with some culture and such. They got pinned in between the National Guard and the rioters. I had the common sense not to have been born yet.
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AZDuffman
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April 28th, 2015 at 5:43:53 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

I'm listening to a bunch of incoherent rambling from uneducated morons trying to explain why they are rioting in Baltimore. It is ridiculous because the truth is that the victim is quickly being forgotten as the story becomes more about the hoodlums moving from place to place to incite riots. One data mining operation has geo-located 50 or so accounts that were active both in Ferguson and in Baltimore.



The victim matters not, nor does the city. What matters is the chance to have a violent riot and move the cause. I do not buy that it is all "out of town" people. Yes, some may have been bussed in to stir things up. But that is just the core. The locals clearly have joined in.

But what is the cause? Blacks have allowed themselves to be used by one side of the political spectrum in the USA since the 1940s. A steady diet of "you can't make it!" "The man is against you!" "All the stuff they have and you don't!" While some people will ignore it and succeed in spite of it, it is amazing how many lap it up. I have a few black Facebook friends. White collar guys, regularly employed the last 10+ years at least. Guess who's side they take?

It is clear that we are living in a second age of riots, the last being the mid 1960s to early 1970s. Where will it go?


Quote:

Just now I heard a clip of our wonderful President saying that he can't get funding to help the inner city folks because of the current composition of Congress. I call bullstuff. His party had two years of total control, and four years of partial control, of the Congress he rails against...what major items has he put forth and pushed hard for to actually help the issue?



I call even more BS. How much did the "stimulus" spend? How much do we already spend on social programs? The sad fact is he has to be political in the face of riots. He came up as a community organizer and is simply returning to the business he knows best.

Meanwhile, folks, remember the "radical" Tea Party and all the riots and looting they caused? You don't??
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rudeboyoi
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April 28th, 2015 at 5:45:16 PM permalink
But without government there would be chaos! Wait there's chaos right now... with government... caused by an incident of government.
RonC
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April 28th, 2015 at 7:06:20 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

But without government there would be chaos! Wait there's chaos right now... with government... caused by an incident of government.



I'm not going to argue with you that your imagined utopia would not be a great place but, once you had human beings to the equation, it has absolutely zero chance of working for the people in it the way you think it would.

Governments are necessary; keeping them in check is a necessity.
kenarman
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April 28th, 2015 at 7:13:42 PM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

I get that as well, and i don't know how it works in Baltimore, but in Chicago at least, and my former home in Milwaukee, most security personnel at those MLB stadiums are off duty police officers. I think they are more than capable of handling them once inside the stadium. What I would be more worried about, while attending the game would be the damage my car my incur by the hands of these rioters. However, I don't think it is a safe situation to be transporting the White Sox from their hotel to the park and B) for the Orioles who have to drive in from their respective residences. I personally, would not wish to drive my personal vehicle through a riot zone.



And how many off duty officers do you think there are in Baltimore right now?
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rudeboyoi
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April 28th, 2015 at 7:20:14 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

I'm not going to argue with you that your imagined utopia would not be a great place but, once you had human beings to the equation, it has absolutely zero chance of working for the people in it the way you think it would.

Governments are necessary; keeping them in check is a necessity.



Anarchy is not a utopian idea. The state is a utopian idea. That you can use violence in order to perfect society. With anarchy you just let humans interact with eachother and whatever happens happens.

Grammar question: is it "a utopia" or "an utopia"? An sounds weird but U is a vowel.
reno
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April 28th, 2015 at 9:16:03 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

In 2011, The Florida Marlins played the Cincinnati Reds and broke the record for the least amount of people at an MLB game. The previous record had been set in 1979 at an Oakland Athletics game with only 653 people. The reason only 347 people turned out was because of Hurricane Irene.



From USA Today: "According to John Thorn, official historian for Major League Baseball, this will be the first game with zero attendance. The previous low was 6, for a Sept. 28, 1882 game between the host Worcester Ruby Legs and Troy Trojans. In 2002, the minor league Charleston Riverdogs barred fans for five innings in an attempt to set a record for lowest attendance."
DrawingDead
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April 28th, 2015 at 10:03:12 PM permalink
I just checked the scheduled starters for tomorrow.

Memo to Baltimore folk: It may be unwise to provoke a rock throwing contest with Jeff Samardzija.
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rudeboyoi
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April 28th, 2015 at 10:37:51 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

I just checked the scheduled starters for tomorrow.

Memo to Baltimore folk: It may be unwise to provoke a rock throwing contest with Jeff Samardzija.



I went to school with him from 4th grade through 12th grade. He was a grade behind me though so wasn't really friends with him. He lived in the neighborhood across the street from mine. Played flashlight tag/had snowball fights in middle school with him but that was about it. Mikey Morandini was another baseball player that lived in that same neighborhood.
bobsims
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April 29th, 2015 at 7:39:16 AM permalink
Quote: reno

Due to the Freddie Gray protests in Baltimore, tomorrow's Orioles game will be closed to the public. That's right, two teams playing ball in an empty stadium. Surreal and strange indeed.

Is this an unprecedented event for any MLB, NFL, NBA, or NHL game? Is it necessary? Would it make more sense just to cancel the game entirely?


***




I've seen ppd., rain-ppd. snow now it's ppd, blacks.
bobsims
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April 29th, 2015 at 7:44:11 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

The victim matters not, nor does the city. What matters is the chance to have a violent riot and move the cause. I do not buy that it is all "out of town" people. Yes, some may have been bussed in to stir things up. But that is just the core. The locals clearly have joined in.

But what is the cause? Blacks have allowed themselves to be used by one side of the political spectrum in the USA since the 1940s. A steady diet of "you can't make it!" "The man is against you!" "All the stuff they have and you don't!" While some people will ignore it and succeed in spite of it, it is amazing how many lap it up. I have a few black Facebook friends. White collar guys, regularly employed the last 10+ years at least. Guess who's side they take?

It is clear that we are living in a second age of riots, the last being the mid 1960s to early 1970s. Where will it go?




I call even more BS. How much did the "stimulus" spend? How much do we already spend on social programs? The sad fact is he has to be political in the face of riots. He came up as a community organizer and is simply returning to the business he knows best.

Meanwhile, folks, remember the "radical" Tea Party and all the riots and looting they caused? You don't??



There's a big silver lining-blacks rioting and animalistic behavior always helps Republicans. Always.
The fringe lunatic left thinks most violent crime is committed by white cops and businessmen. The rest know EXACTLY who is committing the violent crimes.
Gabes22
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April 29th, 2015 at 7:54:09 AM permalink
Quote: kenarman

And how many off duty officers do you think there are in Baltimore right now?


That's kind of my point. They shouldn't be having the game with or without the crowd. The amount of police personnel to get the teams to the game and then lock down the stadium once the players are there for 5 hours (they do need BP, and warm up time after all) is a wasted resource
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terapined
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April 29th, 2015 at 8:55:52 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman


Meanwhile, folks, remember the "radical" Tea Party and all the riots and looting they caused? You don't??



Pointing a gun at a law enforcement officer is pretty serious.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25396688/i-team-police-say-bundy-ranch-protesters-not-off-the-hook
rudeboyoi
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April 29th, 2015 at 9:01:16 AM permalink
Quote: bobsims

There's a big silver lining-blacks rioting and animalistic behavior always helps Republicans. Always.
The fringe lunatic left thinks most violent crime is committed by white cops and businessmen. The rest know EXACTLY who is committing the violent crimes.



Yep and that's the police. Assault, murder, kidnapping, extortion, armed robbery, breaking and entering, burglary etc.
rudeboyoi
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April 29th, 2015 at 9:01:48 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

Pointing a gun at a law enforcement officer is pretty serious.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25396688/i-team-police-say-bundy-ranch-protesters-not-off-the-hook



But it's okay for them to point guns at us?
terapined
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April 29th, 2015 at 9:03:11 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

Pointing a gun at a law enforcement officer is pretty serious.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25396688/i-team-police-say-bundy-ranch-protesters-not-off-the-hook



Police tell me to stand down, I stand down.
I listen to the police unlike some tea party members that point guns at the police and refuse to listen to a Peace officer.
rudeboyoi
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April 29th, 2015 at 9:10:57 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

Police tell me to stand down, I stand down.
I listen to the police unlike some tea party members that point guns at the police and refuse to listen to a Peace officer.



Its okay to stand down out of fear. But thinking you have some moral obligation to stand down is not. There's nothing immoral about resisting being kidnapped. There's nothing immoral about defending yourself against violence initiated against you. There's nothing immoral about running away.
Ibeatyouraces
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April 29th, 2015 at 9:12:21 AM permalink
Police officers, politicians and the like are the same people that were bullied as kids in school. They are in their jobs just for revenge.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
RonC
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April 29th, 2015 at 9:45:54 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Meanwhile, folks, remember the "radical" Tea Party and all the riots and looting they caused? You don't??



Quote: terapined

Pointing a gun at a law enforcement officer is pretty serious.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25396688/i-team-police-say-bundy-ranch-protesters-not-off-the-hook



Yes, pointing a weapon at a law enforcement officer is a serious offense; the allegations should be investigated and prosecuted, if a case can be made against anyone for the offense. Exactly as these rioters should be investigated and prosecuted for EVERY destructive crime that they committed. The same as the officers involved in the death of the young man should be investigated and prosecuted, if warranted.

You find one example and think that it is something to hang your hat on--I will take the record of the Tea Party folks and their gatherings against these Baltimore and Ferguson people (and the rest of their ilk...remember those people crapping on cop cars with rapes in their camps?) overall any day of the week.

It isn't the Tea party's fault these folks are destroying the place where they (some of them) live.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
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April 29th, 2015 at 9:48:22 AM permalink
A simple way to get over the indoctrination and recognize that police are nothing more than another criminal gang is to look back on the history of piracy. Pirates that were given a commission by a government were called privateers. Both privateers and pirates would rob other ships on the high seas. Whether one had a commission or not they were both engaging in the same activity. The only thing that separated the two was a piece of paper.
RonC
RonC
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April 29th, 2015 at 9:49:33 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Police officers, politicians and the like are the same people that were bullied as kids in school. They are in their jobs just for revenge.



There may be some truth in that for SOME of them, but not all of them by any means. That is way too broad of a statement.

I do think that police would behave better if they were made to account for the little things they can get away with but shouldn't...just like Mayor Giuliani did not want folks to ignore a broken window or some other sign of "blight" and he pushed to rid NYC of criminals, cops who break minor laws should not be allowed to get away with it. Once you feel insulated from the law, you think you can get away with more.

The same can be said for politicians and their special perks.
Boz
Boz
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April 29th, 2015 at 10:43:11 AM permalink
I wonder what Mickey thinks of this situation?
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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April 29th, 2015 at 11:29:08 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

Pointing a gun at a law enforcement officer is pretty serious.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25396688/i-team-police-say-bundy-ranch-protesters-not-off-the-hook



And this has to do with the Tea Party rallies how exactly? I didn't see the words "Tea Party" used once in the article. Nor do I see anything in the article about them destroying, looting, or doing anything to the property of other people.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Gabes22
Gabes22
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April 29th, 2015 at 11:34:54 AM permalink
Back to the topic at hand. Many fans are watching the game through gaps is the bars looking into the stadium and you do still hear a smattering of applause on television
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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April 29th, 2015 at 12:36:30 PM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

Back to the topic at hand. Many fans are watching the game through gaps is the bars looking into the stadium and you do still hear a smattering of applause on television



I have heard that, but figured they are nearby and listening on radio or watching online.

I'm no BB fan but watching to be able to say I did.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
vendman1
vendman1
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April 29th, 2015 at 12:41:21 PM permalink
For those I don't know I live in the Baltimore area. It's been a weird and sad time. I think things are settled down now. But I drove through downtown Baltimore this morning for work, and it was weird to see armed National Guardsman on the street on an otherwise beautiful spring day. I have a friend who works game days for the Orioles. He says it's the weirdest thing he's ever been a part of.
soxfan
soxfan
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April 29th, 2015 at 2:57:01 PM permalink
Quote: Boz

I wonder what Mickey thinks of this situation?



The Mickey Crimm is a shrewd and honest cat, but uttering thruths speech can get a cat the gavel, hey hey.
" Life is a well of joy; but where the rabble drinks too, all wells are poisoned!" Nietzsche
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