HOA F'd with the wrong guy

Quote: Face

Keee-hrist, man. You know, people get divorced all over the country. Unmarried, no kids... I could find you a nice house here for like $70k. Or a legit mansion for under $200k. Fresh air, corn fed women, small town livin'. And ain't no one gonna tell you what to do. Ever. Might just be the cure for what ails ya ;)

I know I saw my own family court lawyer like three times and already burned through over $2k. I dunno how that compares to your own rates, but I know a dollar would go a hell of a lot farther here. Just ask SOOPOO. You could live like a king.

Go west, young man =)

Would have to learn the laws of your land

Quote: aceofspades

Would have to learn the laws of your land

I live in NY, friend. Western New York. It's still oppressive enough that you wouldn't feel completely out of sorts, and the bits of extra freedom you get by not being in NYC would seem a bounty. And I live near the rez, so due to the interesting way that society runs, you could dress in sweatpants and drive an '88 Cutless Supreme or go suit and tie in a Corvette ZR1 and fit right in either way.

And while the actual laws of the land may differ slightly, I don't believe the laws of your profession differ at all.

Many, if not most, of the participants in this thread don't seem to understand the historical rise of the HOA. Let's see if I can shed some light on the subject.

Once upon a time you had a developer of real estate that bought a hundred acre tract of farmland and decided to build a sub-division there. After negotiating new zoning codes with the city/county decides to build 100 single family homes. There have to be streets put in, utilities including sewerage, electric, natural gas, etc. all very complicated and expensive, and people get paid to move these discussions along.

Now this little 'we're going to start calling it a neighborhood of a hundred families', this neighborhood is going to have a tennis court and a small pool for the use of the residents, built at the developer's expense. Those amenities are kind of standard for the developments in the area and the developer wants his offerings to be competitive in the marketplace. All this takes place, the houses are all built and sold to families or individuals that think this looks like just what they are looking for to call 'home' and partake in the American Dream. That leaves some "common property" that the homeowners have to pay for going forward, the pool and tennis court, and the little parking lot. That is why the HOA concept was born. There is also the pretty stone walls and landscaping out at the entrance from the street into the subdivision. Those are lit at night so there is an electrical bill, and they are equipped with sprinklers so there's a water bill, and there's the contract with the landscaping company to keep all that mowed and tidy. The pool comes with 2 additional waterbills, one for the city/county mandated restrooms, another w/o sewerage charges for irrigating around that area. Then there are property taxes to be paid, annually, forever. And tons of maintenance on the pool and tennis court, annually forever. And the developer knew all this when he put in the development and it was just the way things are done these days. And the developer started the HOA, and wrote the Covenants and By-Laws, and the documents you had to sign at the Real Estate closing at the attorney's office along with the other 47 documents. One of those said you fully understood that you were buying into a neighborhood with community property that would be managed forever by an HOA governed by a committee of elected homeowners (the Board) to maintain those 'common areas'. And that HOA would have as part of it's mission statement the 'preservation of the property values of the individual properties within the neighborhood' and hopefully some statement referring to maximizing the 'quality of life' in the neighborhood.

The city/county didn't want to take over the expense of maintaining those 'common areas'. That would in essence have the developers building new city/county parks that the city/county would have to maintain, forever. The HOA seemed the logical solution, and truthfully no one has come up with a better idea that I am aware of. BUT, big BUT, what this accomplishes is to establish a quasi-governmental body with the ability to 'tax' (annual dues), and set forth restrictions out the ying-yang about the lives of the homeowners in this little neighborhood. All within the Covenants and By-Laws you agreed to when you purchased your little American Dream home. And those Covenants and By-Laws are not carved in stone, they 'evolve' over time.

That is an oversimplification of a complex evolution of the HOA in the USA. And that is simple 'single family detached homes'. It get exponentially more complicated when dealing with clusters of town homes or condos etc in high rise situations. There are a bunch of very profitable law firms that specialize in 'mediating' legal arguments between homeowners and their respective HOA's.

Back to start of discussion, chain down the dog sign, buy a gun, shoot the grill before it burns you up in your sleep, it's self defense.

My thoughts on the HOA topic are quite similar to Face. However, there are areas of the country where pretty much the entire real estate inventory exists within a development that comes with some sort of HOA attached to the deed.

One thing that can happen is that the lifetime of the HOA can end and then the residents would have to establish a new one. In such cases people would normally not choose to do it and can escape. In the case of townhouses, condos, or other developments with significant common areas that need to be maintained I don't think there is any alternative.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Back to start of discussion, chain down the dog sign, buy a gun, shoot the grill before it burns you up in your sleep, it's self defense.

This is the People's Republic of NY, and he lives in its (figurative) capitol. He'd be better off stabbing everyone in his neighborhood in the uvula with a dull kebob skewer than even possessing a gun XD

Quote: ThatDonGuy

This is actually against the law - as long as the dish's diameter is 1 meter or less, an HOA has no say over whether or not you can put one up without its permission.

That is, if you're in a house. If it's a townhouse/condo, then it's possible that the HOA can set a restriction as technically you don't own either your roof or your outside balcony.

I think even in an apartment you have the right to a dish. They passed a law saying so IIRC.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Now this little 'we're going to start calling it a neighborhood of a hundred families', this neighborhood is going to have a tennis court and a small pool for the use of the residents, built at the developer's expense. Those amenities are kind of standard for the developments in the area and the developer wants his offerings to be competitive in the marketplace. All this takes place, the houses are all built and sold to families or individuals that think this looks like just what they are looking for to call 'home' and partake in the American Dream. That leaves some "common property" that the homeowners have to pay for going forward, the pool and tennis court, and the little parking lot. That is why the HOA concept was born. There is also the pretty stone walls and landscaping out at the entrance from the street into the subdivision. Those are lit at night so there is an electrical bill, and they are equipped with sprinklers so there's a water bill, and there's the contract with the landscaping company to keep all that mowed and tidy. The pool comes with 2 additional waterbills, one for the city/county mandated restrooms, another w/o sewerage charges for irrigating around that area. Then there are property taxes to be paid, annually, forever. And tons of maintenance on the pool and tennis court, annually forever. And the developer knew all this when he put in the development and it was just the way things are done these days. And the developer started the HOA, and wrote the Covenants and By-Laws, and the documents you had to sign at the Real Estate closing at the attorney's office along with the other 47 documents. One of those said you fully understood that you were buying into a neighborhood with community property that would be managed forever by an HOA governed by a committee of elected homeowners (the Board) to maintain those 'common areas'. And that HOA would have as part of it's mission statement the 'preservation of the property values of the individual properties within the neighborhood' and hopefully some statement referring to maximizing the 'quality of life' in the neighborhood.

The city/county didn't want to take over the expense of maintaining those 'common areas'. That would in essence have the developers building new city/county parks that the city/county would have to maintain, forever. The HOA seemed the logical solution, and truthfully no one has come up with a better idea that I am aware of. BUT, big BUT, what this accomplishes is to establish a quasi-governmental body with the ability to 'tax' (annual dues), and set forth restrictions out the ying-yang about the lives of the homeowners in this little neighborhood. All within the Covenants and By-Laws you agreed to when you purchased your little American Dream home. And those Covenants and By-Laws are not carved in stone, they 'evolve' over time.

Sounds about right.

Using your example, the "small government" HOA set up a more intrusive government than the actual large government around it. They didn't have to make it that intrusive but once they included the protecting property values idea, it really set the stage for any number of things.

Quote: Face

This is the People's Republic of NY, and he lives in its (figurative) capitol. He'd be better off stabbing everyone in his neighborhood in the uvula with a dull kebob skewer than even possessing a gun XD

I assume Home Depot has stores in the great State of (no guns allowed ) NY. Go buy a sledge hammer, probably a better weapon for use on a grill anyway. Still accomplishes adding to your carefully constructed persona. You want them to think you are stone cold crazy, and probably dangerous ;-)

Quote: Face

And I got a bunch of cut logs curing on the side yard to make a table out of, and my boat is on the porch and the trailer is in the back yard cuz it's too big to go anywhere else. And if they asked to move it for whatever reason, I'd go do it right now. If they demanded it, I'd have to change my pants, because I would totally #$%^ them on the spot.

I think about HOA's when I target practice
with the 38 and 9mm. I have 25 tires I
bought at a cop auction in the 90's, they're
behind the barn. I've had as many as 5
vehicles here for years. I share the house
with at least a dozen cats and a dog. An
HOA would be a prison for me, I can't
even imagine it.

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: Face

And I got a bunch of cut logs curing on the side yard to make a table out of, and my boat is on the porch and the trailer is in the back yard cuz it's too big to go anywhere else. And if they asked to move it for whatever reason, I'd go do it right now. If they demanded it, I'd have to change my pants, because I would totally #$%^ them on the spot.

I think about HOA's when I target practice
with the 38 and 9mm. I have 25 tires I
bought at a cop auction in the 90's, they're
behind the barn. I've had as many as 5
vehicles here for years. I share the house
with at least a dozen cats and a dog. An
HOA would be a prison for me, I can't
even imagine it.

I was about to post those very same thoughts. You stated it perfectly.

Quote: 1BB

I was about to post those very same thoughts. You stated it perfectly.

There are some things I can't do.
No mobile homes allowed on the
property. No non running vehicles
unless stored inside. I can park an
RV here, just can't live in it full time.
No fences over 6 ft tall. If I wanted
to do all of that and more, I would
move 20 miles to the next county
where you can have a mobile home on
any property, with cars up on blocks
in the front yard, and probably be
married to your sister.

I have been president of two HOA's and have overseen the re-writing of the Covenant of a major sub-division.

A sub-division covenant is a binding contract. Our HOA enforces the rules of the sub-division Covenant by first warning, then fining the home owners. With belligerent or obstructionist homeowners, the HOA simply places a lien on the house which must be paid before the homeowner can sell his house. Believe me, the HOA gets 100% of the fines it levies -eventually.

There are several practical limits to the HOA's authority.

1. The rules in the Covenant may not be changed unless at least 50% of the Homeowners approve and agree to the change. Again, the Covenant is a contract and the law does not permit one side to change the terms and conditions of a contract without the written approval of the other parties to the contract.
2. If a rule is enforced arbitrarily, then it cannot be enforced. If an HOA fines one homeowner, but lets another homeowner get away with the same transgression (Maybe the 2nd homeowner is a friend of someone on the HOA Board of Directors) -then that Covenant rule is no longer legally enforcable (ever again). You cannot give someone grace because he has just had a divorce, or lost his job etc. The enforcement of the rules must be the same for everyone all the time or they lose the force of law..
3. The rule must be written clearly. Rules always tell you what you can't do -and the rule must have clearly interpretable parameters otherwise it cannot be legally enforced
- No barnyard animals can be kept as a pet. Clear rule!
- No signs advertising a business. Clear rule!
- The grounds of a house must be well-maintained. Too vague - unenforcable. Additional detail should be written into the rule.