Cuba - Normalize relations?
Poll
 | 14 votes (58.33%) | ||
| | 1 vote (4.16%) | ||
| | 1 vote (4.16%) | ||
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| | 3 votes (12.5%) | ||
| | 4 votes (16.66%) |
24 members have voted
Its about time.
Bottom line, Fidel won and we lost.
A lot of Cuban people are suffering due to the embargo.
Who cares about Politics, lets travel to Cuba :-)
Florida senator, Marco Rubio, came out strongly against Cuba as have other Republican Senators.
On the flip side, there were Republican Senators in Cuba helping with the release of Alan Gross.
Southern Florida has changed. A once hard core Hispanic republican base has become more democratic thus turning this state to a battleground state that Obama won twice in a row capturing the Southern Florida Hispanic vote.
Polls show the majority of Americans favor normalizing relations.
Quote: terapined
Polls show the majority of Americans favor normalizing relations.
Agreed. Long over-due.
Cuba produces little to trade. Castro turned it into the most dependent nation on earth, first from the USSR and now from Venezuela. Regular citizens have health care worst than the average dog in the USA while dupes like Michael Moore show the premium care they cannot get and say "how good the Cuban system is!"
The Beard and his brother cannot be long for this world, which probably is part of the reason for all of the action. I say there is some other reason. Things like this do not just happen, something is driving it.
Quote: AZDuffmanThe Cuban people are suffering because of the evils of the communist government, not the embargo.
Cuba produces little to trade. Castro turned it into the most dependent nation on earth, first from the USSR and now from Venezuela. Regular citizens have health care worst than the average dog in the USA while dupes like Michael Moore show the premium care they cannot get and say "how good the Cuban system is!"
The Beard and his brother cannot be long for this world, which probably is part of the reason for all of the action. I say there is some other reason. Things like this do not just happen, something is driving it.
^^^ this.
Trade sanctions do hurt countries slowly over time but the model of government affects the citizens (or subjects as the case may be) far more than anything else.
EDIT: Anyone know the southernmost point of Cuba? Let's erect that sign and mean it!!
Quote: terapinedLooks like the Pope pulled off a little of his magic and whoa, Cuba and the USA talking.
Its about time.
Bottom line, Fidel won and we lost.
A lot of Cuban people are suffering due to the embargo.
Who cares about Politics, lets travel to Cuba :-)
Florida senator, Marco Rubio, came out strongly against Cuba as have other Republican Senators.
On the flip side, there were Republican Senators in Cuba helping with the release of Alan Gross.
Southern Florida has changed. A once hard core Hispanic republican base has become more democratic thus turning this state to a battleground state that Obama won twice in a row capturing the Southern Florida Hispanic vote.
Polls show the majority of Americans favor normalizing relations.
I would argue both countries lost. While the embargo might have seemed like a good idea at the height of the cold war...it proved to be sort of useless. All it did in the long run was impoverish Cuba..which is stuck in an economic time warp. As for the US; citizens here lost investment in Cuba when Castro seized power, and family's were tragically split up, often for decades. Yes, Cuba was marginalized as a "threat"...but there was never much of a "threat" from Cuba to begin with. At least once the Cuba missile crisis was averted. So politicians fought over larger geo-political issues and Cuba became a pawn in that game. The whole thing was a giant waste...and ultimately a high stakes pissing contest between governments. That had no winner. Only losers...the Cuban people.
Quote: vendman1I would argue both countries lost. While the embargo might have seemed like a good idea at the height of the cold war...it proved to be sort of useless. All it did in the long run was impoverish Cuba..which is stuck in an economic time warp. As for the US; citizens here lost investment in Cuba when Castro seized power, and family's were tragically split up, often for decades. Yes, Cuba was marginalized as a "threat"...but there was never much of a "threat" from Cuba to begin with. At least once the Cuba missile crisis was averted. So politicians fought over larger geo-political issues and Cuba became a pawn in that game. The whole thing was a giant waste...and ultimately a high stakes pissing contest between governments. That had no winner. Only losers...the Cuban people.
Cuba itself was never the threat, the threat comes from another naval power setting up a base or bases there, it is the key to the Gulf of Mexico.
And once again, communism, not the embargo, made Cuba the basket case that it is. They could trade with over 100 other countries yet still ended up broke.
Quote: mickeycrimmI know some cigar aficianados who cant wait to get their chops on a Cuban cigar.
The intrigue with Cuban cigars will be gone in no time. They really aren't better than other high quality cigars. They are just the forbidden fruit. Supply and demand and there was no supply in the U.S.
As much as a hate to say it, this may be the one good thing Obama will be remembered for. 50 years is long enough. We forgave Vietnam, German, Japan, etc. The Cuban people are good people. This will help them more than anyone. Tourism will eventually open up which will create jobs in constructions, hospitality, restaurants and more. Yes, the Castro family has been horrible to their people and there are a lot of hurt feelings from those that have escaped, but it's time to move on. The Castro brothers are dying and now is the time to build a relationship, which will help them, us and bury Russia even a little more. Russia might be next...
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13The intrigue with Cuban cigars will be gone in no time. They really aren't better than other high quality cigars. They are just the forbidden fruit. Supply and demand and there was no supply in the U.S.
All I can go on is what I've been told because I've never smoked cigars. I was on a Spin Poker Full Pay Jokers play with several promotions running at the Hotel Nevada & Gambling Hall in Ely, Nevada in 2005/2006. I stayed at the White Pine Motel. There I met and became friends with Al Molea who was running the White Pine. Al was a former floor person at the Mirage poker room.
Al was from New York and was also a cigar aficianado. He was the one who instigated getting quality cigars into Las Vegas. He said that before him you couldn't get a good cigar in Vegas. He put together plans to open up a quality cigar shop in Vegas and the idea got stolen from him by his backers.
In his mind the best cigars available were from the Dominican Republic, then Costa Rica and Nicaragua. I asked him what the big deal was on Cuban cigars. He said that Cuba has the perfect climate for growing the tobacco.
Quote: mickeycrimmI know some cigar aficianados who cant wait to get their chops on a Cuban cigar. The problem with communism is the lack of incentive to produce. From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs just doesn't work in the real world. The ones with the talent to produce just quit doing it when they don't make any more money than the non-producers. I really don't know what to think about this new Cuban relations thing so far. Hopefully, the country will change once the Castro brothers are dead.
Your cigar buddies will be sorely disappointed. The Cuban cigar industry has as you allude to been destroyed. I have had a few Cuban cigars, they were nothing special.
Does anybody know if Congress must act to lift the embargo? I mean technically, not by Obama deciding he will not enforce if because "Congress didn't do it's job."
Quote: AZDuffmanYour cigar buddies will be sorely disappointed. The Cuban cigar industry has as you allude to been destroyed. I have had a few Cuban cigars, they were nothing special.
Does anybody know if Congress must act to lift the embargo? I mean technically, not by Obama deciding he will not enforce if because "Congress didn't do it's job."
Congress would have to lift the embargo for the cigars to start coming over in mass. There will then be a Cuban cigar boom. Then, shortly after that is when the allure of them will go away as the supply outshines the demand and the quality is compared to others. Before that happens though, travelers (mostly business) will be able to bring over $100 worth of cigars each.
ZCore13
Quote: mickeycrimmI know some cigar aficianados who cant wait to get their chops on a Cuban cigar.
And they can't find somebody to drive to Vancouver, BC, go to one of the many cigar stores that advertise that they have Cuban cigars (gee, I wonder why?), and drive back across the border (unless the US government has invested heavily in tobacco-sniffing dogs, the chances of getting caught at a border checkpoint are slim) why, exactly?
I have a feeling truly normalized relations won't happen until, and unless, we can guarantee the Havana government that any Cubans who emigrate to the USA and make a considerable amount of money (coughbaseball playerscough) will be subject to, say, a 50% Cuban tax (i.e. the money goes straight to Cuba) on income above one million US dollars, even if they subsequently become US citizens. The Castros know that they just can't "open the borders" and turn Cuba into a remotely capitalist country overnight, the way Russia tried.
Then again, maybe somebody in Havana has noticed the Western Union money-wiring trucks located outside of, say, Home Depots or Lowe's, and figures, if so much money can be sent to Mexico "privately", then why not try to get in on some of that action?
Quote: ThatDonGuy
I have a feeling truly normalized relations won't happen until, and unless, we can guarantee the Havana government that any Cubans who emigrate to the USA and make a considerable amount of money (coughbaseball playerscough) will be subject to, say, a 50% Cuban tax (i.e. the money goes straight to Cuba) on income above one million US dollars, even if they subsequently become US citizens. The Castros know that they just can't "open the borders" and turn Cuba into a remotely capitalist country overnight, the way Russia tried.
That I can see, the same way the USA shakes down citizens who say "ENOUGH" and renounce.
"Great season, Mr. Batista, we haven't had such a great short-stop in years. But about your pay, we deducted Federal Income tax, state income tax, transient player tax for various cities, agent fee, and some local tax. After that you owe $50,000 for the year. Stop by payroll on your way home."
Quote: AZDuffmanYour cigar buddies will be sorely disappointed.
I agree. i have had many Cuban cigars over the past ten years and don't notice anything that distinguishes them from Dominican cigars. Maybe it was different in the past.
Quote: DRichI agree. i have had many Cuban cigars over the past ten years and don't notice anything that distinguishes them from Dominican cigars. Maybe it was different in the past.
Except maybe the price?
It might have been different, when I was into cigars I heard it was something in the Cuban soil, but methinks that the lore grew after JFK snapped them all up and you could no longer get them. One article I read a guy got a tour of some Cuban cigar plant and they still had some boxes from the Batista era in a humidor. Clearly they will never be smoked so who knows if they are any good.
He is never lock step with his party. He treats every issue seperately which is the way it should be.
Rand Paul supports trade with Cuba.
You go Rand, hope you get the nomination.
Quote: terapinedRand Paul continues to impress me.
He is never lock step with his party. He treats every issue seperately which is the way it should be.
Rand Paul supports trade with Cuba.
You go Rand, hope you get the nomination.
I just wish Rand was a governor not a senator. I wonder if he will be allowed to go down to Cuba to do operations like he did elsewhere? He let hundreds of people see again, and that was just one week!
Quote: AZDuffmanCuba itself was never the threat, the threat comes from another naval power setting up a base or bases there, it is the key to the Gulf of Mexico.
And once again, communism, not the embargo, made Cuba the basket case that it is. They could trade with over 100 other countries yet still ended up broke.
I agree with all that AZ...it's just a shame the whole thing was a waste for 50 years.
Quote: Zcore1350 years is long enough. We forgave Vietnam, German, Japan, etc. The Cuban people are good people.
ZCore13
I believe much of the pressure has been from Cuban refugees and exiles. Most of our politicos have been going with that wish for quite awhile.
50 years is long enough to try one thing, if nothing else, it's probably a good reason to try something else.
Oray told me about the Mariel Boatlift and how his boat sunk and he floated around for three days in the water before the Coast Guard picked him up. He sat is a concentration camp for a couple of years.
"Why did they detain you so long?" I asked
"Well, many years ago the man came to me and said 'Oray, the revolution needs you.'"
"What does that mean?" I asked
"It meant I had to join the Cuban Army or go to jail."
"So you were in the Cuban Army?"
"Yes. I was stationed in Russia, Algeria and Angola."
"Did the feds find out about that when you got here?"
"Oh, yes! That asshole Fidel Castro made sure of that. He gave them my military file."
"Oh, man. Is that why you sat in the concentration camp so long?"
"Yes, I can thank Castro for that."
Quote: FleaStiffWasn't Cuba where Thomas Jefferson wanted America's Ne Plus Ultra sign implanted?
EDIT: Anyone know the southernmost point of Cuba? Let's erect that sign and mean it!!
Isn't that where Michael Moore took firefighters to get healthcare after Sept. Eleven?
Quote: AZDuffmanQuote:And once again, communism, not the embargo, made Cuba the basket case that it is. They could trade with over 100 other countries yet still ended up broke.
Are you expecting Communist red China to fail anytime soon?
Quote: mickeycrimmI know some cigar aficianados who cant wait to get their chops on a Cuban cigar. The problem with communism is the lack of incentive to produce.
They have been available for a long time [US being only one with an embargo] and evidently the Communists screwed the cigar thing up too.
However, they might start making premium ones again. That is sort of a capitalist sounding idea though
Quote: petroglyphAre you expecting Communist red China to fail anytime soon?
Maybe Cuba will soon imitate the Chinese model, the quality of the cigars may be telling.
No sign of it yet.
http://youtu.be/f7GYKl2irRQ
Note the ratio of table games to slots. Today 20 tables games might mean 1,000 or more slot machines.
You can also see why Edwin Thorpe's book " Beat The Dealer " was such a threat to casinos when first published.
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Quote: freddieWho is the morning line favorite to put the first American backed casino in Cuba ?
What's the over/under on the year when this supposedly happens?
I doubt the current regeme, or any of its Communist successors, will allow anything other than state-run casinos in Cuba. Refresh my memory: who put the first American backed casino in Monaco? (And no, it wasn't Grace Kelly.)
Quote: petroglyphAre you expecting Communist red China to fail anytime soon?
Maybe Cuba will soon imitate the Chinese model, the quality of the cigars may be telling.
No sign of it yet.
Perhaps we will see cheapo Cuban cigars at Harbor Freight you are saying?
Quote: AZDuffmanPerhaps we will see cheapo Cuban cigars at Harbor Freight you are saying?
seeing cheap Cuban cigars is possible, but Obama can't lift the embargo on his own
On not enforcing the law, the same legislators purposefully underfund enforcement yearly so the work can never be done in many departments and none got hanged for treason yet.
Quote: ahiromuThey stole the wealth of millions, murdered thousands, and threatened the US with nuclear missiles 50 years ago. Let the entire country burn for all I care, at this point the general population is as responsible as the leadership.
Wow, burn an entire country. So babies and children in Cuba right now are responsible for what happened 50 years ago.
Been to South Miami? Many anti-Castro Cuban exiles have family in Cuba. You actually want those relatives of US republican citizens to burn?
Chill dude, take a vacation to Colorado and have a smoke:-)
Quote: AZDuffmanQuote: petroglyphAre you expecting Communist red China to fail anytime soon?
Maybe Cuba will soon imitate the Chinese model, the quality of the cigars may be telling.
No sign of it yet.
Perhaps we will see cheapo Cuban cigars at Harbor Freight you are saying?
Maybe form some new trade agreement with Cuba, bring in a cigar factory [made in China] and bring in even cheaper labor from Indonesia, give Castro a few mil up front and he can retire in comfort in Haiti where he is thought highly of?
We can have an acronym for the "free trade agreement" like CCCP, or Cut Cuban Cigars Partnership, someway to even screw the Cubans only making 4 dollars a day because they are to expensive to hire. Also bring in cigar rolling specialists on a visa program from India on a VH1 visa and give them property so the employers can make a profit. Total cost of cigar 1$, S&H .50, cell cigar in Vegas 75.00 ea., sounds about right.
While "they're" at it they can take away the free health care for the Cubans so they can "compete" with 4th world countries of the TPP?
I would certainly like to get title for some beach front property before the rush. It would be like living in Florida without all the Floridians, this world planning is fun.
Quote: odiousgambitseeing cheap Cuban cigars is possible, but Obama can't lift the embargo on his own
He cannot change immigration law on his own, either, but he didn't seem to care about that.
On another note, I am wondering if this move is in relation to the rise of China and their navy.
Quote: Dicenor33I like everything about Cuba through the eyes of Hemingway, in real life Latin culture not one of my favorite.
I'll take Hemingway's Havana any day,
in the 1940's. Great restaurants, super
hotels, shows and gambling. 90 miles
off the coast. It was a terrible loss to
be cut off for the last 55 years.
Quote: petroglyph
Perhaps we will see cheapo Cuban cigars at Harbor Freight you are saying?
.
I've heard cigar people say there are no
good cigars made in Cuba anymore. Ever
since Casto quit smoking, they stopped
taking care of the crops and the quality
tobacco is gone.
