aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 7:38:53 PM permalink
So a client who owed me 25k two months ago and asked if I could work up her invoice on the latest work over the past two months for her for Monday - so, between yesterday and today I worked up the bill and for the past 4 months she has racked up $48k in fees. She just called me and basically called me a liar and that I was making things up to charge her extra and I am screwing her...I then asked her if she read the bill line by line and she said “No”.
I told her that she needs to go through it line by line - she said “You’d better believe I am going through it line by line and I am not paying this - it is outrageous and you are just trying to milk money out of me!. So, I told her "You know I do not even charge you for text messages or statutory interest on overdue balances”. In reply, she said “ I am not paying this!” and hung up.
To add fuel to the fire, the Judge wrote in an order 8 months ago that he thought my bills were unreasonable and I was “overbilling”—which she can use against me if we go to mandatory arbitration. However, in every motion and pleading filed with the Court since then my client has stated she believed the Judge was wrong and that I deserved to be paid even more money as I was doing amazing work on her behalf". There were even things I did not charge for on the bill such as the 25 text messages a day she sends to me or the interest on overdue balances.
To add to this, we are on the precipice of a settlement where she will walk away a millionaire, but, apparently, that is not good enough as she apparently feels I am "forcing her to settle", which is quite untrue - I am trying to save her the headache of another year in Court and ever-mounting legal fees — but, now that I know she could care less about paying them, I guess that is not a concern.
On top of all this, her boyfriend is a long time friend of mine.
EvenBob
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October 5th, 2014 at 7:46:15 PM permalink
Can't you put a lien on the settlement?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 7:49:19 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Can't you put a lien on the settlement?




Can only put a lien if there is a Judgment.
There cannot be a Judgment unless a Judge orders one.
A Judge cannot order one without going to mandatory arbitration and winning there. (remember, mandatory arbitration does not mean "binding arbitration")
Still, after mandatory arbitration, client or attorney can either accept the finding or file a lawsuit (client would sue for malpractice, attorney would sue for unpaid fees).
This way, no matter what happens, the attorney's malpractice insurance goes up and his/her name gets dragged through the mud.
Got to love a legal system where people are not responsible for their legal bills.
GWAE
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October 5th, 2014 at 7:49:24 PM permalink
non attorney rant: I hate how attorneys charge by the hour even for texts, emails, and phone calls. I once called my business lawyer for a question. He answered in about 4 minutes and billed me for an hour.

question: why don't these people pay you a retainer? The few people that I have known to use a lawyer pay a retainer and as it gets used up they pay as they go. I didn't think it was common to bill for everything at the end.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
EvenBob
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October 5th, 2014 at 7:56:12 PM permalink
So if somebody sticks you for a big bill
like this, you just eat it? Why would anybody
want to be in such a business where getting
paid is up to the client? If I have an unpaid
bill at my doctors, he won't treat me till it's
brought up to date. I had insurance make
a mistake, and I was locked out for 6 months
until it was corrected.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 7:56:20 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

non attorney rant: I hate how attorneys charge by the hour even for texts, emails, and phone calls. I once called my business lawyer for a question. He answered in about 4 minutes and billed me for an hour.

question: why don't these people pay you a retainer? The few people that I have known to use a lawyer pay a retainer and as it gets used up they pay as they go. I didn't think it was common to bill for everything at the end.




They do pay a retainer and the retainer runs out and they never get around to paying again. Lack of payment is not cause for a judge to grant permissive withdrawal.

OK - so if the attorney was not texting or emailing or talking with you, he/she could be doing other work which would not be billed to you. As Honest Abe said "An attorney's time and advice are his stock in trade" — all attorney's have are time and advice - we have to charge for it. I love people who say to attorneys "Oh, you knew that off the top of your head" - yeah, that's right, and we went to law school and worked decades to get to that point.

Four minutes should NEVER be billed as one hour - that is a valid complaint but, I am not even charging this client for text messages and even dropped certain charges from the bill because she is my friend's g/f
rxwine
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October 5th, 2014 at 7:59:01 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

On top of all this, her boyfriend is a long time friend of mine.



You probably have heard the advice against mixing personal with the professional.

Actually, it can be great, unless something goes wrong, than you realize it can ruin a relationship in some cases. Maybe you will get lucky.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 7:59:55 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

So if somebody sticks you for a big bill
like this, you just eat it? Why would anybody
want to be in such a business where getting
paid is up to the client? If I have an unpaid
bill at my doctors, he won't treat me till it's
brought up to date. I had insurance make
a mistake, and I was locked out for 6 months
until it was corrected.




Exactly Bob - most people do not know this…unless your client is doing something illegal, has informed you they will commit perjury or made sexual advances and other such types of behavior, you must get permission from the Court to be relieved from the case. Lack of payment is not a valid reason - you must state some other reason such as "the client refuses to take the advice of the attorney" or "the communication between client and attorney have broken down beyond repair"…however, the other side can oppose this motion and the client can oppose the motion as well. Even if you are relieved from the case, you will be required to hand over the file to the client ( the only thing of any value that you could use as a bargaining chip ) and go to mandatory arbitration. Even if you win at arbitration, you still have to worry about a grievance being filed or malpractice suit because all of a sudden, no matter how great they told you you were, you are the enemy. It is a contemptible profession and I regret becoming an attorney every day of my life.
AxelWolf
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:06:05 PM permalink
SERIOUSLY I just got an attorney pop up/down. WTF?

ATTORNEYS

Advertise What's this? Settings Commitment to quality
I need an attorney

Full name

Your email

Location

Your phone number


By submitting this form, I authorize service providers to contact me back regarding my request. Privacy and EULA .
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
EvenBob
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:07:20 PM permalink
The one time I refused to pay an attorney,
this is what I did. I saw him twice for 15min
each, and there was one call for 5min. He
sent me a bill for $900.

I went to his office and said I'd pay it if
he could explain every nickle of it.
He said without blinking or hesitating
'give me $500'. And I said '450 or nothing'.
And he said 'done' without even pausing.

He was screwing me and we both knew it.
He's lucky he took the 450 because he
would have gotten nothing even if he
went to court.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
rdw4potus
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:10:00 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob


He's lucky he took the 450 because he
would have gotten nothing even if he
went to court.



Nothing for 3 sessions with his client? If you say so, it must be true...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Sonuvabish
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:14:03 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

So a client who owed me 25k two months ago and asked if I could work up her invoice on the latest work over the past two months for her for Monday - so, between yesterday and today I worked up the bill and for the past 4 months she has racked up $48k in fees. She just called me and basically called me a liar and that I was making things up to charge her extra and I am screwing her...I then asked her if she read the bill line by line and she said “No”.
I told her that she needs to go through it line by line - she said “You’d better believe I am going through it line by line and I am not paying this - it is outrageous and you are just trying to milk money out of me!. So, I told her "You know I do not even charge you for text messages or statutory interest on overdue balances”. In reply, she said “ I am not paying this!” and hung up.
To add fuel to the fire, the Judge wrote in an order 8 months ago that he thought my bills were unreasonable and I was “overbilling”—which she can use against me if we go to mandatory arbitration. However, in every motion and pleading filed with the Court since then my client has stated she believed the Judge was wrong and that I deserved to be paid even more money as I was doing amazing work on her behalf". There were even things I did not charge for on the bill such as the 25 text messages a day she sends to me or the interest on overdue balances.
To add to this, we are on the precipice of a settlement where she will walk away a millionaire, but, apparently, that is not good enough as she apparently feels I am "forcing her to settle", which is quite untrue - I am trying to save her the headache of another year in Court and ever-mounting legal fees — but, now that I know she could care less about paying them, I guess that is not a concern.
On top of all this, her boyfriend is a long time friend of mine.



Will you hire me?
MrV
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:26:19 PM permalink
Ace, you really are a gambling man.

You gamble your income in the casinos, and gamble whether or not your clients will pay you when you are done with their case.

Here's an idea: when the retainer is exhausted, demand a new one and if they can't pay it immediately, withdraw.

I'm sorry, but allowing a client to get into you $48K is inexcusable.
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:28:07 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

Nothing for 3 sessions with his client? If you say so, it must be true...



Nothing? I gave him 450 for 35min work.
You call that nothing? He did nothing for
it, that's for sure. And I mean nothing.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:28:21 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Ace, you really are a gambling man.

You gamble your income in the casinos, and gamble whether or not your clients will pay you when you are done with their case.

Here's an idea: when the retainer is exhausted, demand a new one and if they can't pay it immediately, withdraw.

I'm sorry, but allowing a client to get into you $48K is inexcusable.



You two have had this conversation before. Withdrawal is a real PITA in NY...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:29:09 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The one time I refused to pay an attorney,
this is what I did. I saw him twice for 15min
each, and there was one call for 5min. He
sent me a bill for $900.

I went to his office and said I'd pay it if
he could explain every nickle of it.
He said without blinking or hesitating
'give me $500'. And I said '450 or nothing'.
And he said 'done' without even pausing.

He was screwing me and we both knew it.
He's lucky he took the 450 because he
would have gotten nothing even if he
went to court.



Bob - I undercharged - I know firms that charge $1/page for photocopies
aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:32:46 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Ace, you really are a gambling man.

You gamble your income in the casinos, and gamble whether or not your clients will pay you when you are done with their case.

Here's an idea: when the retainer is exhausted, demand a new one and if they can't pay it immediately, withdraw.

I'm sorry, but allowing a client to get into you $48K is inexcusable.



V - as previously stated - you cannot just cease working - you must have judicial permission to withdraw as counsel -- nonpayment of fees is neither a statutory nor case law accepted reason for judicial permission to be granted
Once you start claiming the reasons of "attorney-client communication has been broken beyond repair", you are immediately hit with either a grievance filed by the client or a malpractice suit ( which everyone knows is retaliatory in nature but you must still defend) the game is rigged (at least in matrimonial cases) against the attorneys
EvenBob
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:32:57 PM permalink
Quote: MrV



I'm sorry, but allowing a client to get into you $48K is inexcusable.



Happens all the time. There's a blog by a disbarred
lawyer who had the perfect storm. No clients paid
him for months and he went into the escrow accounts
and he was caught and disbarred. He also went to
prison for tax evasion because he had no money.

He's says lawyers on their own are feast or famine,
broke or on easy street. The stress is enormous.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Sonuvabish
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:36:24 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

Exactly Bob - most people do not know this…unless your client is doing something illegal, has informed you they will commit perjury or made sexual advances and other such types of behavior, you must get permission from the Court to be relieved from the case. Lack of payment is not a valid reason - you must state some other reason such as "the client refuses to take the advice of the attorney" or "the communication between client and attorney have broken down beyond repair"…however, the other side can oppose this motion and the client can oppose the motion as well. Even if you are relieved from the case, you will be required to hand over the file to the client ( the only thing of any value that you could use as a bargaining chip ) and go to mandatory arbitration. Even if you win at arbitration, you still have to worry about a grievance being filed or malpractice suit because all of a sudden, no matter how great they told you you were, you are the enemy. It is a contemptible profession and I regret becoming an attorney every day of my life.



Lack of payment is a valid reason to request withdrawl; especially if it's causing you financial hardship and you give warning. It's not statutory, but it's contained in Bar and ethics rules. What state are you in that this is not the rule?
aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:41:19 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

Lack of payment is a valid reason to withdraw if it's causing you financial hardship and you give warning. What state are you in that this is not the rule?



NY

Clients are becoming very hip to this. People complain about attorneys without realizing we can be forced to work for free. I know a solo attorney who is owed over $37k and she tried to get off the case and the judge denied it because to leave the client without representation (knowing she could not pay a new attorney) at the point in the case they were at would not serve the interests of justice. The judge said the attorney could apply for the fees during trial but that part of the trial she did pertaining to fees could not be billed on her invoice and that, if their opposed fees were reasonable, the judge would issue a judgment therefor--of course, reasonable is subjective and good luck ever collecting on the judgment
EvenBob
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:49:36 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

and good luck ever collecting on the judgment



You can garnish wages, snatch bank accounts and
seconds homes and cars, and get tax refund checks.
But it's a real pain, you spend all you time doing
that and not tending to clients.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Sonuvabish
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:51:01 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

NY

Clients are becoming very hip to this. People complain about attorneys without realizing we can be forced to work for free. I know a solo attorney who is owed over $37k and she tried to get off the case and the judge denied it because to leave the client without representation (knowing she could not pay a new attorney) at the point in the case they were at would not serve the interests of justice. The judge said the attorney could apply for the fees during trial but that part of the trial she did pertaining to fees could not be billed on her invoice and that, if their opposed fees were reasonable, the judge would issue a judgment therefor--of course, reasonable is subjective and good luck ever collecting on the judgment



Well judge can deny it sure under certain circumstances, but you can ask. Sounds like your case differs from the attorney you describe; your client is able to pay you, and simply refuses. She would not be prejudiced, since you have no basis to leave if she simply chose to pay.
aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:52:03 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You can garnish wages, snatch bank accounts and
seconds homes and cars, and get tax refund checks.
But it's a real pain, you spend all you time doing
that and not tending to clients.



I had a client I tried doing this too but he moved to PA
And in PA, you cannot garnish wages for judgments (other than spousal or child support) and cannot attach a lien to any marital property--as such, there's $7500 I'll never see
aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 8:53:56 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

Well judge can deny it sure under certain circumstances, but you can ask. Sounds like your case differs from the attorney you describe; your client is able to pay you, and simply refuses. She would not be prejudiced, since you have no basis to leave if she simply chose to pay.




Nonpayment can only be used if it is deliberate---and, if someone cannot pay it, it is not deliberate--she barely makes 50k but, if the case settles, she will have plenty. No judge would grant permission herein.
Sonuvabish
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October 5th, 2014 at 9:13:13 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

Nonpayment can only be used if it is deliberate---and, if someone cannot pay it, it is not deliberate--she barely makes 50k but, if the case settles, she will have plenty. No judge would grant permission herein.



It sounds then like you didn't expect her to pay unless you won? Because otherwise it would be unwise to take the case it seems. And if youre worried she won't pay after she wins based on what she says, she might change her tune after she becomes rich.
midwestgb
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October 5th, 2014 at 9:14:53 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob



He's says lawyers on their own are feast or famine,
broke or on easy street. The stress is enormous.




I live this reality. My very best year turned into a financial/IRS nightmare...

Ace, you have my complete sympathies. Stay strong. My advice - bite the bullet, finish the case with her as professionally as possible, then collect your fees from the husband as best you can via the settlement agreement and/or the Decree.
midwestgb
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October 5th, 2014 at 9:14:53 PM permalink
Edit, double post.
aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 9:24:46 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

It sounds then like you didn't expect her to pay unless you won? Because otherwise it would be unwise to take the case it seems. And if youre worried she won't pay after she wins based on what she says, she might change her tune after she becomes rich.



No that is not the case. Matrimonial cases cannot be taken on contingency. Clients are supposed to pay as they go and sometimes they don't. This is a friend's g/f and she kept saying how great a job I've been doing and the money (either after a settlement of trial) will be there
aceofspades
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October 5th, 2014 at 9:25:40 PM permalink
Quote: midwestgb

I live this reality. My very best year turned into a financial/IRS nightmare...

Ace, you have my complete sympathies. Stay strong. My advice - bite the bullet, finish the case with her as professionally as possible, then collect your fees from the husband as best you can via the settlement agreement and/or the Decree.




Thanks GB - good to have a brother in arms
djatc
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October 5th, 2014 at 9:27:59 PM permalink
This is a perfect catalyst to move to Vegas and be an attorney out here. Nothing good can come from residing in the east coast
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
Hunterhill
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October 6th, 2014 at 4:40:23 AM permalink
The best thing that can come from living on the east coast is that you don't have to live on the west coast.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
SOOPOO
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October 6th, 2014 at 5:57:37 AM permalink
I'm amazed no one has commented on the $150,000 per year in fees this ONE client is racking up in her divorce proceedings! That's about what 48k over the last 4 months adds up to! How many such clients can an attorney be working on simultaneously? 20? 30? More?
It's why my ex and I used a mediator, estimated savings for us was $200k.

That being said... I'm sure Aces had the client sign a contract listing the fee schedule, and I would hope Aces gave her a reasonable estimate about what the proceedings would cost. She should pay once she collects.

As an anesthesiologist I cannot even get a 'retainer' like lawyers can. I am solely dependent on patients paying after their procedure. "Insured' patients, who now have ever growing deductibles, ignore our bills in droves. We can eventually send them to a collection agency; I'm guessing we get 10 cents on the dollar for the sum of our unpaid bills... eventually...

I'm sure there are some companies that did business with Revel that can mimic our tales of woe......
MrV
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October 6th, 2014 at 7:52:16 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

You two have had this conversation before. Withdrawal is a real PITA in NY...



I got the impression that his inability to secure permission from the judge to withdraw as discussed previously was based upon the fact that the case was quite close to going to trial.

Surely the bar in NY has not allowed a situation to exist such that an attorney is REQUIRED, in all cases, to stay involved in a case through trial?

That is simply an insane rule, if it is interpreted as such.

In the matter at hand, I wonder whether the court would have allowed a withdrawal earlier in the case, e.g. shortly after the retainer was gone and before any of the additional $48K in new fees were incurred, had AoS sought permission to withdraw much earlier?

BTW, I did a five minute google of NY court rules and could not come across the withdrawal rule: could you provide a link?

This I've got to see.

Out west we can withdraw as a matter of right at any time; only if an objection to withdrawal is made and sustained can it be prevented.
"What, me worry?"
ncfatcat
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October 6th, 2014 at 8:59:32 AM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

No that is not the case. Matrimonial cases cannot be taken on contingency. Clients are supposed to pay as they go and sometimes they don't. This is a friend's g/f and she kept saying how great a job I've been doing and the money (either after a settlement of trial) will be there


No good deed goes unpunished!
Gambling is a metaphor for life. Hang around long enough and it's all gone.
aceofspades
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October 6th, 2014 at 10:24:22 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I'm amazed no one has commented on the $150,000 per year in fees this ONE client is racking up in her divorce proceedings! That's about what 48k over the last 4 months adds up to! How many such clients can an attorney be working on simultaneously? 20? 30? More?
It's why my ex and I used a mediator, estimated savings for us was $200k.

That being said... I'm sure Aces had the client sign a contract listing the fee schedule, and I would hope Aces gave her a reasonable estimate about what the proceedings would cost. She should pay once she collects.

As an anesthesiologist I cannot even get a 'retainer' like lawyers can. I am solely dependent on patients paying after their procedure. "Insured' patients, who now have ever growing deductibles, ignore our bills in droves. We can eventually send them to a collection agency; I'm guessing we get 10 cents on the dollar for the sum of our unpaid bills... eventually...

I'm sure there are some companies that did business with Revel that can mimic our tales of woe......




SOOPOO -

I am a solo practitioner - there is no way I could handle 20 to 30 cases. If I handle two or three a year that is very busy. Additionally, not all cases bring in these billable hours. Some clients I only talk to once month - other clients, like this one, need daily attention and want me to file motions every month - those fees add up - it reminds me of this classic SEINFELD bit:







Also, can you stop seeing your patient if they don't pay or do you need judicial permission?
aceofspades
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October 6th, 2014 at 10:35:50 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

BTW, I did a five minute google of NY court rules and could not come across the withdrawal rule: could you provide a link?




see Rule 1.16(c) and (d)

You would have to read all the attendant case law (especially in matrimonial cases) to see how it is actually applied when it comes to the nonpayment of fees to an attorney.
MrV
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October 6th, 2014 at 3:23:33 PM permalink
Thanks, I'll go over it later.

Wow, our divorce practices sure differ.

I don't quite run a divorce mill here, but I always have over 40 to 50 active cases going.

I can see how getting stiffed would be especially problematical for you.
"What, me worry?"
skrbornevrymin
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October 6th, 2014 at 4:32:34 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

So a client who owed me 25k two months ago and asked if I could work up her invoice on the latest work over the past two months for her for Monday - so, between yesterday and today I worked up the bill and for the past 4 months she has racked up $48k in fees. She just called me and basically called me a liar and that I was making things up to charge her extra and I am screwing her...I then asked her if she read the bill line by line and she said “No”.
I told her that she needs to go through it line by line - she said “You’d better believe I am going through it line by line and I am not paying this - it is outrageous and you are just trying to milk money out of me!. So, I told her "You know I do not even charge you for text messages or statutory interest on overdue balances”. In reply, she said “ I am not paying this!” and hung up.
To add fuel to the fire, the Judge wrote in an order 8 months ago that he thought my bills were unreasonable and I was “overbilling”—which she can use against me if we go to mandatory arbitration. However, in every motion and pleading filed with the Court since then my client has stated she believed the Judge was wrong and that I deserved to be paid even more money as I was doing amazing work on her behalf". There were even things I did not charge for on the bill such as the 25 text messages a day she sends to me or the interest on overdue balances.
To add to this, we are on the precipice of a settlement where she will walk away a millionaire, but, apparently, that is not good enough as she apparently feels I am "forcing her to settle", which is quite untrue - I am trying to save her the headache of another year in Court and ever-mounting legal fees — but, now that I know she could care less about paying them, I guess that is not a concern.
On top of all this, her boyfriend is a long time friend of mine.



Can't help but think that this is why she is getting divorced. She promises the world and delivers only the bare minimum to get to some guy's money. Big surprise that she does the same to you. Talks you up and leaves you hanging in the wind. If I were your friend I would run far and fast. He'll be next.

On a more practical note, how about slowing down your responsiveness or speed of service until she pays you some of what she owes you? In other words, you are "too busy dealing with paying clients" to get to her stuff right away or to respond quickly when she calls, until she moves herself back to the "top of your list" by cutting you a check.
Sabretom2
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October 6th, 2014 at 4:43:28 PM permalink
Based on my experience with lawyers, let me just say; "I don't give a shit."
SOOPOO
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October 6th, 2014 at 4:51:23 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

SOOPOO -

I am a solo practitioner - there is no way I could handle 20 to 30 cases. If I handle two or three a year that is very busy. Additionally, not all cases bring in these billable hours. Some clients I only talk to once month - other clients, like this one, need daily attention and want me to file motions every month - those fees add up - it reminds me of this classic SEINFELD bit:
Also, can you stop seeing your patient if they don't pay or do you need judicial permission?



I am stunned.... You really only handle 2 or 3 cases a year?

My ex-wife worked at a 'mom and pop' law firm when we lived on Long Island a few decades back. They made sure the retainers were high enough, and replenished often enough, to not get in the situation you got into. It sounds like you took this case 'kind of' like a personal injury case, in that you really are getting paid from the proceeds of the settlement, just not a fixed percentage.

I cannot refuse to take care of a patient as an anesthesiologist working in a hospital. I am long done seeing the patient before I have any idea if I will be paid. Somewhere around 80- 90% of the patients have insurance that just pay, and there are no issues. The ones that don't pay I consider one of the costs of doing business. I can see if you are only handling a few cases per year you are at much greater risk for negative variance! Conversely, there may be years you get 100% collections.

A very small percentage of anesthesiologists work in cosmetic surgery facilities, in which cash is paid up front before services are rendered. I wish I could charge a retainer.....
rxwine
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October 6th, 2014 at 5:04:22 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

To add fuel to the fire, the Judge wrote in an order 8 months ago that he thought my bills were unreasonable and I was “overbilling”—which she can use against me if we go to mandatory arbitration. However, in every motion and pleading filed with the Court since then my client has stated she believed the Judge was wrong and that I deserved to be paid even more money as I was doing amazing work on her behalf".



You know, though this looks contradictory, I think it can be explained. The judge did you no favors and poisoned the well. (her head)

I think maybe she felt, even if she now believed that you may be overcharging her, she wanted you to be successful first -- possibly fearing complaining would jeopardize your success.

Once she felt she wasn't in jeopardy of getting a good settlement, she's decided she was safe to pursue what the judge said. Possibly convinced by an unexpected higher amount.

edit: I mean, if a judge tells me my attorney is overcharging, I'm probably going to pay a lot of attention to that vs, hearing it from anyone else I can think of.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
GWAE
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October 6th, 2014 at 6:03:07 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I am stunned.... You really only handle 2 or 3 cases a year?

My ex-wife worked at a 'mom and pop' law firm when we lived on Long Island a few decades back. They made sure the retainers were high enough, and replenished often enough, to not get in the situation you got into. It sounds like you took this case 'kind of' like a personal injury case, in that you really are getting paid from the proceeds of the settlement, just not a fixed percentage.

I cannot refuse to take care of a patient as an anesthesiologist working in a hospital. I am long done seeing the patient before I have any idea if I will be paid. Somewhere around 80- 90% of the patients have insurance that just pay, and there are no issues. The ones that don't pay I consider one of the costs of doing business. I can see if you are only handling a few cases per year you are at much greater risk for negative variance! Conversely, there may be years you get 100% collections.

A very small percentage of anesthesiologists work in cosmetic surgery facilities, in which cash is paid up front before services are rendered. I wish I could charge a retainer.....



lawyers and Anesthesiologists get paid extremely well for the work that does pay though. Complaining about the little bit of missed income just sounds silly. AOS, if you don't like the way the system is working for you then you always have the option of switching jobs or working for a bigger firm. If you are missing out on that much money then maybe you need to restructure the way that you do things as a business. Larger retainer, quick to get out of the case before it is to late, or other things that may not be so obvious.

Why do people complain about their jobs when they are the ones in complete control of their career? This isn't a question necessarily for you, but a question in general.
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teddys
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October 6th, 2014 at 6:32:05 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

It is a contemptible profession and I regret becoming an attorney every day of my life.

Attorney? What?! I thought you were a professional card-counter.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
MrV
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October 6th, 2014 at 7:10:15 PM permalink
Quote:

If you are missing out on that much money then maybe you need to restructure the way that you do things as a business. Larger retainer, quick to get out of the case before it is to late, or other things that may not be so obvious.



Oh, AOS may get stiffed by one-third of his clients, but those other two paying clients must really pay through the nose.

Two or three cases a year?

In NY?

Who are they, Rockefellers?

He's down in AC a lot, green and black chipping his way along the boardwalk.

Leads me to think his boutique approach is the right one for him.
"What, me worry?"
GWAE
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October 6th, 2014 at 7:20:20 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Oh, AOS may get stiffed by one-third of his clients, but those other two paying clients must really pay through the nose.

Two or three cases a year?

In NY?

Who are they, Rockefellers?

He's down in AC a lot, green and black chipping his way along the boardwalk.

Leads me to think his boutique approach is the right one for him.



It very may be a good approach but his complaining leads me to believe that he feels that he is worth way more.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
aceofspades
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October 6th, 2014 at 7:24:37 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

lawyers and Anesthesiologists get paid extremely well for the work that does pay though. Complaining about the little bit of missed income just sounds silly. AOS, if you don't like the way the system is working for you then you always have the option of switching jobs or working for a bigger firm. If you are missing out on that much money then maybe you need to restructure the way that you do things as a business. Larger retainer, quick to get out of the case before it is to late, or other things that may not be so obvious.

Why do people complain about their jobs when they are the ones in complete control of their career? This isn't a question necessarily for you, but a question in general.



I normally do get out but when the client is a childhood friend's g/f...it is a bit more difficult
aceofspades
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October 6th, 2014 at 7:26:51 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

It very may be a good approach but his complaining leads me to believe that he feels that he is worth way more.




Is it bad to be confident in one's professional abilities?
GWAE
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October 6th, 2014 at 7:27:57 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

I normally do get out but when the client is a childhood friend's g/f...it is a bit more difficult



I bet the drama on these boards is laughable compared to the drama you deal with in these divorces.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
MrV
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October 6th, 2014 at 7:30:25 PM permalink
The thing about representing people in divorces is, you get to flame the other side unmercifully.

The better you are at it, the more your client likes it.

Usually, anyway.

As for more drama: nah, people are people.

Divorce lawyers just get to see them at their worst.
"What, me worry?"
aceofspades
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October 6th, 2014 at 7:37:18 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

I bet the drama on these boards is laughable compared to the drama you deal with in these divorces.



I prefer the drama of the boards over the drama of real life
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