Black Chip Play - Who would give you a room?

I've come to the decision that I may be able to sustain black chip play. If you get in the four hours a day, would any of the big shots care? Most of it will be craps play: $25 on the line, $60 place, and a mix of other smaller bets (plus odds). Some of the black chip play will be on single zero roulette if available. The reality of it is that it'd probably be broken up into four one hour sessions, but I don't think that would change anything.

My definition of big shot is Caesars (This one may be a stretch), Bellagio, Wynn, and Venetian (Including their sister properties). My guess is that you can get anything else in town, if I'm wrong on that, please correct me.

I'm looking for basically a standard room any time I want, not necessarily comped food. For the basis of this question, I do not care about anything other than a comped room anytime I want.

I can tell you that a $100 player is nothing at wynn.

4 hours of an average bet of $100 will get you a buffet, and maybe a weekday room in the winter. Definitely not "anytime you want."

Quote: ahiromu

The reality of it is that it'd probably be broken up into four one hour sessions, but I don't think that would change anything.

I disagree. This could get you less. by the time the floor gets you in the computer you could lose some time.

Four hours of minimums gets you the buffet at The Wynn, and the room offer is midweek at $115/night. I think four hours at $100 will get you the free room offer. It's not like the place is full 24/7/365.

I know because that is the offer we get. But you can call, ask for a host, and ask; they'll tell you, I'm sure.

"$25 on the line, $60 place"...

Maybe it's me, but that sounds like green chip play. Try Hooters.

Quote: sc15

I can tell you that a $100 player is nothing at wynn.

4 hours of an average bet of $100 will get you a buffet, and maybe a weekday room in the winter. Definitely not "anytime you want."

Is the pool of $500 minimum bettors that large that they can discount the play of a $100 minimum player?

Quote: Mosca

Four hours of minimums gets you the buffet at The Wynn, and the room offer is midweek at $115/night. I think four hours at $100 will get you the free room offer. It's not like the place is full 24/7/365.

I know because that is the offer we get. But you can call, ask for a host, and ask; they'll tell you, I'm sure.

I've seen Wynn offers online for midweek rooms for $79.night rom time to time to the general public

Quote: DJTeddyBear

"$25 on the line, $60 place"...

Maybe it's me, but that sounds like green chip play. Try Hooters.

ha! yeah, maybe that is more like heavy green play. odds were mentioned, too, so the total in play would be well over $100.

Hooters? yikes! I bet that play would get it done at Mirage or Paris. Certainly, any number of very nice off strip properties (GVR, M, Rampart, LVH) would offer rooms 350ish days/year for that level of play.

IMO, your play would get you midweek rooms at Caesar's and PH; anytime rooms any other CET properties, occasional anytime Caesars, usually anytime PH. Don't know about the others. Paris is wonderful, anyway; stay there until you establish enough play to get regular anytime Caesars' offers. Even better; get a host. Mine can always top the computer offers, and not by a little bit.

I can tell you that to get a room ANY TIme you want you would need more then that at cosmo room anytime you want would be 300 or more
at venetian 500 average bet gets you room any time you want and 150 per trip free chips and 150 free food
100 any time you want would be at mirage - that I know for a face but it would make people swarm to help you- just a room

Quote: beachbumbabs

IMO, your play would get you midweek rooms at Caesar's and PH; anytime rooms any other CET properties, occasional anytime Caesars, usually anytime PH. Don't know about the others. Paris is wonderful, anyway; stay there until you establish enough play to get regular anytime Caesars' offers. Even better; get a host. Mine can always top the computer offers, and not by a little bit.

I would amend that very slightly: "IMO, your play would might get you midweek rooms at Caesar's" Particularly if you switch to four one-hour sessions at roulette. Remember that is at least five hours with breaks and allowances for that final one-hour session to be in their computer.

Agree with the stay at Paris. Unless you want to drive half way to California and do the M Resort which is notorious for giving away M-Th rooms but wanting every drop of your life's blood before giving away a weekend room.

Quote: ahiromu

I'm looking for basically a standard room any time I want, not necessarily comped food.

definitely not "any time" at Wynn or Venetian.
It is not because they are full 365 days/year. They just don't want to give away free rooms to low rollers.
$100 per hand is a low roller in their eyes (unless you play $100 per spin slots).

Thanks for all of your input, I especially appreciate your examples.

Regarding rating, I might have made too big of a deal about this. Just wanted to convey that I would get in "enough" play. The numerical examples I gave (hours and average bet) were minimums.

I'm not too sure that I'm willing to startup at the Evil Empire yet, but it's good to know that I have that option. My big issue is that I enjoy buying the 4/10 and there's no way in hell I'm paying commission when I place the bet. I might be happy enough just staying at mid level MGM places, but we'll see.

Once again, thanks guys.

Quote: aceofspades

Is the pool of $500 minimum bettors that large that they can discount the play of a $100 minimum player?

Dunno, but I play yellow and I'm only given regular rooms comped, so presumably the tower suites are filled with higher players than that.

I feel like we may be discounting the people out there who are forced to stay at the higher end places because of their wife/girlfriend. Their play won't necessarily cover their room, but they pay cash to make up the difference. I'm pretty sure they'd rather have a green chip player paying $200 a night (slightly discounted) than someone expecting a free room playing $100 a hand... or any variation thereof (ie pay for a suite upgrade).

I have not known a single situation where the guy in a relationship was the one pressing for a nicer place, I'm sure it exists, but it's a sex-based stereotype that's held true 100% of the time in my life.

You must keep in mind that a $100 a hand table game player is worth about the same as a penny slot player who bets $1 per spin. There are lots of slot players betting more than that, especially at Wynn.

Quote: DRich

You must keep in mind that a $100 a hand table game player is worth about the same as a penny slot player who bets $1 per spin. There are lots of slot players betting more than that, especially at Wynn.

Well, it's more like a $1 slot player who plays a few coins / spin is the equivalent of a $100 / hand player, but yeah.

There's plenty of $1/$5 slot players at wynn.

How do $5 slot players get their money into the machine? I just imagine them constantly feeding in hundreds, which sounds incredibly depressing. Will cages let you give them, say, $10k, and receive a ticket instead?

Yeah, I think for slot players, they can get a marker in the form of a slot ticket.

$100 is pretty middle-market for the strip. I agree with people who suggest the upper-mid level MGM properties: Mirage, Monte Carlo, maybe Mandalay or MGM. Lots of nice inventory and they are probably seeking players who have bolted for Wynn, Bellagio, Aria, Cosmo, etc. You are not going to get a second look at the top tier places.

You could also try Hard Rock. I'd heard of black chip players having pretty good success with hosts there. Terrific property.

Quote: sc15

Dunno, but I play yellow and I'm only given regular rooms comped, so presumably the tower suites are filled with higher players than that.

WOW that's some nice play
HIGH ROLLER IN THE HOUSE!

Quote: teddys

$100 is pretty middle-market for the strip. I agree with people who suggest the upper-mid level MGM properties: Mirage, Monte Carlo, maybe Mandalay or MGM. Lots of nice inventory and they are probably seeking players who have bolted for Wynn, Bellagio, Aria, Cosmo, etc. You are not going to get a second look at the top tier places.

You could also try Hard Rock. I'd heard of black chip players having pretty good success with hosts there. Terrific property.

I am not seeing this when I am on the strip - most high limit rooms (where most of the $100minimum tables are) are rarely occupied by more than a couple of people (Caesars, Aria, Paris).
Additionally, the last time I was in Vegas I walked through the strip looking at Bally's, Harrah's, The Quad and did not even see a High Limit room in any of them)
When I played at The Cromwell on 2 separate evening occasions, I was the only player in the high limit room for hours

Now, could this all be coincidence that I was in those places at the precise times nobody would be playing…I suppose that could be.

Harrah's high limit room is behind the Asian pit, on the way to the craps tables (If you're coming from the street, you'd see the craps tables first). It's 2 rooms; one side is slots, the other is tables. Unless they moved it; I was last there in April. They also have private high limit rooms not immediately visible.

I didn't see one at Bally's, either. And haven't been in the Quad since it was the IP, so no idea there.

Quote: sc15

Yeah, I think for slot players, they can get a marker in the form of a slot ticket.

You wouldn't catch me dead doing this I think, but yes, I think this is the way players can avoid feeding 100 dollar bills every minute or so.

Usually people feed 2 machines, the one they are playing and the one next to it. When they get to the amount they need they would print it out of the other machine and stick it in theirs.

I've wondered this same thing, looking to play black chip PG tiles (with pre-paid commission, if possible). My guess, without only minimal investigation, is that middle-market places like TI or Stations would welcome such action. Of course, the places I was considering are only those offering tiles. I emailed Stations to see if play at Palace Station could get me discounted rooms at GVR or Red Rock, and got back an unhelpful reply on the Boarding Pass points system.

Quote: sc15

Well, it's more like a $1 slot player who plays a few coins / spin is the equivalent of a $100 / hand player, but yeah.

There's plenty of $1/$5 slot players at wynn.

Actually, it is a 100 coin penny player. A general assumption for BJ players is that they will lose approximately one average bet per hour. So a $100 BJ player is worth $100 an hour to the casino. A penny video slot player playing $1 per spin is also worth just about $100 an hour to the casino. If we assume one spin ever five seconds on average playing $1 per spin on a typical 86% penny slot the casino make 14 cents per spin. The math is 12*60= 720 spins per hour times fourteen cents per spin. That is $100.80 per hour.


BTW, this is the exact reason penny slots are taking over the world. Take a look around Las vegas casinos and look at all of the newest slot machines. 95% are penny slots.

Quote: harvson3

I've wondered this same thing, looking to play black chip PG tiles (with pre-paid commission, if possible). My guess, without only minimal investigation, is that middle-market places like TI or Stations would welcome such action. Of course, the places I was considering are only those offering tiles. I emailed Stations to see if play at Palace Station could get me discounted rooms at GVR or Red Rock, and got back an unhelpful reply on the Boarding Pass points system.

harvson,

FWIW, both Rio and Harrah's have PGT - I've played both places, min varies $15-25. Harrah's staffs that table 24/7; not sure what the Rio hours are. I don't know about the pre-paid commission, you'd have to ask them. But both properties would welcome your action with free rooms, in my experience. If you're not already established with them, you might ask for the casino rate, then leave yourself some time at checkout and ask for a host review of your play. I've had great success with having them (and others) write off all my rooms and in most cases, the food and other charges, after playing well below black-chip level (though I do play a lot of hours/day).

Quote: ahiromu

I've come to the decision that I may be able to sustain black chip play. If you get in the four hours a day, would any of the big shots care? Most of it will be craps play: $25 on the line, $60 place, and a mix of other smaller bets (plus odds). Some of the black chip play will be on single zero roulette if available. The reality of it is that it'd probably be broken up into four one hour sessions, but I don't think that would change anything.

My definition of big shot is Caesars (This one may be a stretch), Bellagio, Wynn, and Venetian (Including their sister properties). My guess is that you can get anything else in town, if I'm wrong on that, please correct me.

I'm looking for basically a standard room any time I want, not necessarily comped food. For the basis of this question, I do not care about anything other than a comped room anytime I want.

I'm sure Alan M. would have a line on what kind of action gets room comps at Caesars. Perhaps you should PM him for the contact info for a host?

Quote: Ayecarumba

I'm sure Alan M. would have a line on what kind of action gets room comps at Caesars. Perhaps you should PM him for the contact info for a host?

Appreciate the tip, but I really enjoy buying the 4 & 10, and I'm pretty sure CET properties only have the prepaid commission variety. I know I mentioned Caesar's, which was misleading, but I don't think I could play there after thinking about it.

Betting quarters is not black chip play. ???

Quote: beachbumbabs

But both properties would welcome your action with free rooms, in my experience.

Thanks for the reply bbb. The comments I've read suggest that CZR properties would want more to be marked as other than a low-roller. We'll see. Next time in Vegas is a professional convention/impromptu bachelor party, so table time will be limited. Doesn't mean that I won't keep practicing.

BTW, unless you're an APer or are pushing some comp hustle strategy to the max, not playing at all and paying for your rooms at the nicest places in town will probably be cheaper than the money you would waste playing $100 / hand for 4 hours.

Since the nature of this question is asking about comps.. thought I'd throw that out there. Gambling is a waste of money and you should do it ONLY for entertainment value. You'll NEVER get your money's worth in comps. By definition comps are a % of your expected loss.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

"$25 on the line, $60 place"...

Maybe it's me, but that sounds like green chip play. Try Hooters.

You know what's ridiculous?

If you bet $25 on the pass and wait for the bet to be resolved, they will rate your average bet as $25.

If you bet $25 on the pass and a come bet of $25 every roll, they will rate your average bet as $25.

It's a real inequity for the craps player who likes come bets.

Quote: sodawater

You know what's ridiculous?

If you bet $25 on the pass and wait for the bet to be resolved, they will rate your average bet as $25.

If you bet $25 on the pass and a come bet of $25 every roll, they will rate your average bet as $25.

It's a real inequity for the craps player who likes come bets.

Are you talking about a specific property?

I thought I'd follow up here. Since OP, I have given both Caesar's and Mlife mid-heavy green chip & black chip play in Vegas.

History:

Note about CET and me: I have a lot of very low play days at CET. Within the last couple of years, I probably have 2-3 dozen game days where I put $100 or less of total action through VP. My ADT was absolutely shot before this experiment and may still be dragging my offers down.

Note about MLife and me: I have given them solid low-mid green chip play for about 3-4 trips a year for two years. After my average bet approached $50, they started giving me free rooms. The last few trips before these they have taken $50-60 off my bill in addition to the room.


My play:

Two trips at CET betting $50-75 for one and about $100 min for the other, 6-8 hours of playing per day. I have stayed at Mlife twice, once with $50-75 and another with $75-100 for 7-10 hours per day. The $75-100 trip involved $100 min PGP play about half of the time. Both programs saw four figure losses in total and all trips were losing (ambiguous for a reason).


Results:

CET: Free nights in Vegas most weekends at every casino except CP, sometimes CP opens up last minute. With short notice, Paris or PH might fill up. I can get a room at PH next weekend, a week or so ago it was Flamingo only (Mayweather-Pacquiao). I get offers for tickets or tournaments pretty much every weekend. My guess is the cash value of my offers is $50-100 outside of the room, but they have offered me a free NCL cruise, so $300-500 outside of the fees/taxes. I was not staying at a CET property for one of my trips (friend's timeshare) and the other one my alarm didn't go off so I had to pack up fast and run out without talking to anyone.

MLife: 3 night (Fri-Mon) room was comped ahead of time, $100 free play was provided, and $200 in charges were comped off when I left (Including the obscene ~$25 resort fee per night). If I'm paying for only myself & I put in the same amount of play, I can be pretty confident next time that MLife will pay for all of my food. I had a $200 charge at a steak house weigh me down this time.


Conclusion:

Inconclusive, but it's safe to say that the programs are at least competitive at this level. I have been approached by a host at MLife and I will probably approach one at Caesar's myself. It will come down to who provides the most in cash-equivalent comps for me. I do not care about the difference between a suite and a basic room, but if you provide me a ride to-fro the airport and $100 in food or free play per day... that's $240 in "cash" for a two night stay.

Quote: ahiromu

Great info, thank you for sharing. Sometimes it's worthwhile to "play them against each other," so to speak. Coke/Pepsi style.

To me, the "top end" of Caesars is as good as anything on the Strip, although MGM has more premium room inventory (Aria, Bellagio, MB, the primo parts of MGM, Mirage too I guess). I haven't been to the Cromwell yet though I'm very anxious to try it.

Quote: teddys

I haven't been to the Cromwell yet though I'm very anxious to try it.

Different name but, drunk or not, still too long of a walk from the Tuscany ;)

I have weekdays at the Cromwell, but the weekends are tighter than Caesar's. I really don't care about my room as long as it isn't horrible... I'm interested in as much of a food comp as they can give me. Now that I have established play at both corporations (less at Caesar's) I hope that they're willing to seriously talk with me about up front dining credits.

Thought I'd report back again to say a few things:

- Got everything comped at TR for similar play as mentioned above. Resort fee was waived and I got almost $300 in cash equivalent comps (food & free play) along with a room at Flamingo over Memorial Day weekend for three nights. Best I have been treated at a TR property (arguably any property), mainly because I finally made an effort to make reasonable charges AND talk with someone. My conclusion above stands, inconclusive, I'll spend the next year figuring where exactly these two properties draw the line for my level of play. When I gamble alone, I could not care less about the quality of the room and the Flamingo rooms' proximity to the strip is one of the best in town AND I want to see how much food I can get comped. If I can gamble at my leisure and get to throw away $100 on a plurality of extremely indulgent dinners, that makes Vegas better. I've gotten to a point where spending $60-80 on a fine dinner is better than $60-80 on a buffet, am I turning into an adult or something?

The above is the only pertinent thing to my running theme in this thread. By updating, I hope to show people how much their play has to increase in order to start getting more than just a room. Below are further thoughts, but it reads more like a trip report.

- I have finally pinpointed something Caesar's does better than MGM. As someone that's there to gamble, I got to skip a good amount of lines. Bacchanal is usually an hour-long wait at least, I went from the Pai Gow table to sitting down at my table in the buffet within five minutes (for those that don't know, the walk itself takes 2-3 minutes). There was a line of 25-30 people at Burgr (PH), I walked straight in. Never waited in line long to cash my chips. MGM is nothing like that, you need Plat to be able to skip the taxi line. Pearl at MLife lets you skip the buffet line, but it's been awhile since I've seen a bad line at one of their buffets. With that said, I foresee a problem after this year, diamond inflation. I got my diamond status pretty much after two trips, hitting the 1k daily bonus four times. In other words, four days of gambling 1k TC's per day plus various other play earned me diamond status. Admittedly, I got it during the 50% bonus period during the first few months of the year, but it will push a bunch of people over the edge.

- It's just plain stupid not to talk to the floor when you finish playing. I had five separate sessions of Pai Gow where I would flat bet, but sometimes double or triple my bet. I'd say the double-triple made up 20-25% of my play. The floor had me at my flat bet and my flat bet only, every single one of them appeared pretty lazy in this regard. I got them to increase my average bet by 50% on average... only one of them gave me some crap but he eventually complied to some extent. Most of the time, the floor got a smile on their face and gave me a very fair rating bump. I used to ignore it when some of the veteran people on this site recommended to talk with the floor after a session, if you're reading this and want to get on the radar, make sure you're getting rated fairly. As long as you're not an ass about it, there is no way a civil conversation about your rating can hurt you. I found length of play pointless to talk about since buying in for over a thousand always makes sure the floor puts your card in when you start playing... this might be more important at some MGM casinos where they use a pen and paper system.

- Short craps story. I had a terrible craps weekend until my last night there. I played three sessions and was down a grand. I tend to have $100 on the table after a point is established so this represented some bad, but reasonable, variance. I walk up to a table and the first half hour is painful. There's a big group of guys on my side of the table that are annoying and occasionally playing the don't with loud friends. Then things change. Nobody's going on a killer roll, but most are making a couple of points and hitting a few numbers, then I get the dice. My game involves, in part, buying the 10 and very rarely pressing it. I hit maybe 3 10's in 5 rolls, so I decide to get get aggressive and double up my ten after every hit. After three more hits, I have $200 on the ten and end out hitting it two more times (sadly didn't press it at this point) before I seven'd out. I stayed a bit longer than I should have, but walked away +1600 from that 2-3 hour session. It reminded me why I still mix craps into my rotation.

- I'm going to cut down my PGP play. The fact that I'm basically playing single zero roulette AND A SIDE BET is really getting to me, knowing that I'm losing 2.5-3% every bet isn't really worth the variance and entertainment anymore. I can say that it took me six months to learn the game and become error-less in 10+ hours of play. I might learn tiles, I'll be spending five days at Rio in August so that would be a good opportunity. I WILL continue to play PGP and expect my comps to decrease or stay the same when I mix it out, but it's a good game to have in the mix if you want to get social and don't want to experience the hell that is craps variance.


The following are what I disliked this trip:
- Tables at PH say the max aggregate payout is 50k... some of the limit signs say it's 25k. For the record, other tables had both at 50k, so I assume that's where they draw the line. Places with a limit at 25k deserve public scorn.
- Hop bets in craps still underpay at 29-1. This is such a shifty thing and most people don't even notice. With that said, all of my bets pay the exact same at MGM and around town, so it doesn't affect me.
- Bitchy dealers at Paris. Someone at Pai Gow was switching spots, so they were playing at position 3 while sitting at position 4, and the dealer screwed up while dealing and blamed it on him, forcing him to sit in the seat he had his hand in from thereon out. Later on, someone was switching spots while not switching seats and she didn't say a thing. It was so obvious she was shifting the blame for her mistake to a player, inexcusable. I really don't get the all the hubbub regarding Paris, maybe I'm not in their demographic. Surly craps dealer too, I haven't dealt with one of those in a long time since I speak their language.
- The dealers at Aria and CP are equal in terms of proficiency, but CP's tend to be more boring.

Really appreciate you taking the time to report back with all these details, and glad you had an overall good experience!