jsausley
jsausley
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August 6th, 2014 at 5:47:34 AM permalink
First off, I hope this is the most applicable forum section for this topic.

Background: In light of increasing health care costs, my company is closing out our health insurance policy. Everyone will be compensated on their salary for the additional cost that their health insurance coverage would have otherwise cost the company's bottom line. A friend and I were driving to Charlotte today, about two hours away. We are both casual gamblers so we began discussing health insurance in general from the terms of a gambler.

We know that insurance companies make slews of money. So that must mean there is a significant "house edge" factored into your insurance premiums to cover the cost of doing business and provide them with profits.

What do you guys think? Are you at advantage to simply take a similar wage deduction, place it into an account that draws interest and then pay any medical costs off of that amount? Obviously some people will get cancer, have a heart attack or other expensive procedure that will, in gambling terms, bust them out, but what are the odds? Is it safe to say we're playing a game with our insurance company that we can't win?

I'd love to hear some other perspectives on this from some of you mathematically inclined or what you guys think about our insurance problems the way they are today. Let's assume this is from the perspective of someone who makes enough money to not qualify for a government subsidy or Obamacare, etc., someone that would need to purchase private health insurance for in the range of $200-400 a month.
speedycrap
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August 6th, 2014 at 5:53:27 AM permalink
This is like gambling with your life. You win, wonderful. You lose, that is it.
So should we encourage/permit gambling with life??????
SOOPOO
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August 6th, 2014 at 5:55:53 AM permalink
Quote: jsausley


someone that would need to purchase private health insurance for in the range of $200-400 a month.



I assume this is a joke! Good luck in finding real health insurance, unsubsidized, for that!
Anyway, you need not just focus on health insurance....
Same conversation for auto insurance, homeowners insurance, disability insurance, life insurance, and well.... even blackjack 'insurance'!!!!!

The answer to your question is simple. The great majority of people lose out by having health insurance, but the few that end up needing anything major most likely would be bankrupt if they didn't have health insurance. If you are worth close to nothing, it is probably not the worst idea not to have health insurance, but once you've started to accumulate some wealth to me it is way too risky not have health insurance.
chickenman
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August 6th, 2014 at 6:01:36 AM permalink
To paraphrase Lee Iacocca, "If you can find private health insurance for $200/month, buy it!"

Actually your question is one many people are wrestling with regarding the various aspects of health insurance, long term care, etc. The parameters of your current age and health surely must enter into it, but essentially with any insurance you are betting you will, they are betting you won't. You must weigh the ability to afford insurance, afford to bust out, free roll, whatever.
odiousgambit
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August 6th, 2014 at 6:09:33 AM permalink
Quote: jsausley

First off, I hope this is the most applicable forum section for this topic.



if it's about gambling it can go here! You're good.

I pay for health insurance and I feel like an idiot, and I am over 60. As long as you cannot be denied coverage for a previous condition, it seems to me well worth the risk of the initial setback. Kind of like being able to wait until you get a fender-bender, then buying insurance, and turning the cost of the fender-bender fix over to that insurance.

Well, it's not exactly the same; I expect your initial medical costs never get reimbursed, but if they are truly oppressive, you can take them off your taxes. Unless they start making the penalty bigger, it seems like a really bad bet.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
jsausley
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August 6th, 2014 at 6:26:11 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I assume this is a joke! Good luck in finding real health insurance, unsubsidized, for that!



Sorry, forgot to mention that I'm both young and single. You're right, it's a lot more for anyone 40+ or married.
beachbumbabs
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August 6th, 2014 at 6:29:38 AM permalink
Speaking from my perspective (I'm a very lucky person, in that I've had great health insurance for 29 years now, and it's a lifetime benefit, though I pay almost 200/month to keep it), I think it has to be purchased. I would not qualify for subsidies, either.

For example; I've always been healthy, but in 2004 (at age 45) I had an idiopathic optic neuritis. I went from an ophthalmologist to a retinal specialist to a neurologist, got an MRI and several other specialized tests along the way (I had woken up partially blind in one eye), to my first hospital admittance, all in about 24 hours. I was 3 days in the hospital, getting steroids and insulin to counteract the steroid side-effects. Without that aggressive treatment, the damage (blindness) would have been permanent. I would have lost my job (and my health insurance) as a result. The billing: $68,000. My out-of-pocket expense: $135, including co-pays and prescriptions.

The second time I was ever in the hospital was in 2010. I tripped and fell, tried to catch myself, and crushed my elbow. It was so bad they were considering amputation. 2 titanium plates and 18 screws later, 6 months of 3-a-week therapy, and weekly x-rays and surgeon (ortho) follow-ups for 3 months, I had better than 95% of the use of my hand and arm back. Billing: $80,000. My cost (co-pay for all therapy and appointments, and some to the hospital): $3200. Please note: I broke my arm in a dark parking lot, and it cost 80K to make it right.

Either one of those events would have wiped out my savings, my house equity, and every dime on every credit card I had available at the time. And both were CHEAP compared to things that happen to people every day. Notice also that just those 2 events, had I put my money into savings over that 29 years instead, would have wiped out every dime of it.

You're kidding yourself if you think you can get through any need for medical attention without insurance. Or that you don't need it while you're young. It will ruin you financially. And the premiums are tax deductible.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
speedycrap
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August 6th, 2014 at 6:40:04 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Speaking from my perspective (I'm a very lucky person, in that I've had great health insurance for 29 years now, and it's a lifetime benefit, though I pay almost 200/month to keep it), I think it has to be purchased. I would not qualify for subsidies, either.

For example; I've always been healthy, but in 2004 (at age 45) I had an idiopathic optic neuritis. I went from an ophthalmologist to a retinal specialist to a neurologist, got an MRI and several other specialized tests along the way (I had woken up partially blind in one eye), to my first hospital admittance, all in about 24 hours. I was 3 days in the hospital, getting steroids and insulin to counteract the steroid side-effects. Without that aggressive treatment, the damage (blindness) would have been permanent. I would have lost my job (and my health insurance) as a result. The billing: $68,000. My out-of-pocket expense: $135, including co-pays and prescriptions.

The second time I was ever in the hospital was in 2010. I tripped and fell, tried to catch myself, and crushed my elbow. It was so bad they were considering amputation. 2 titanium plates and 18 screws later, 6 months of 3-a-week therapy, and weekly x-rays and surgeon (ortho) follow-ups for 3 months, I had better than 95% of the use of my hand and arm back. Billing: $80,000. My cost (co-pay for all therapy and appointments, and some to the hospital): $3200. Please note: I broke my arm in a dark parking lot, and it cost 80K to make it right.

Either one of those events would have wiped out my savings, my house equity, and every dime on every credit card I had available at the time. And both were CHEAP compared to things that happen to people every day. Notice also that just those 2 events, had I put my money into savings over that 29 years instead, would have wiped out every dime of it.

You're kidding yourself if you think you can get through any need for medical attention without insurance. Or that you don't need it while you're young. It will ruin you financially. And the premiums are tax deductible.

We call that life experience. You know when you encounter it. Remember, better be safe than sorry.
AcesAndEights
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August 6th, 2014 at 7:11:07 AM permalink
Quote: jsausley

Sorry, forgot to mention that I'm both young and single. You're right, it's a lot more for anyone 40+ or married.


Especially if you opt for a high-deductible plan. Although, thanks to Mr. Obama, the really high-deductible plans (like $10K+) are no longer being offered. These plans actually make sense for young, healthy people who have a decent amount of savings.

But, aside from that detail, I agree with the majority that you should have it. In general I hate insurance as it is the same thing is gambling, and just like casino gambling, the other side has the advantage. I never carried renter's insurance until I got married, and I lost that battle with the new wife...(it's a small amount per year). For car insurance I usually carry the state-mandated minimum coverage and eschew collision/comprehensive, as I could replace my car brand new if the very unlikely occurrence of a total happened.

However, with health insurance, if you lose, you lose BIG. A life-changing event could bankrupt you. I tore my ACL last year and with my company's decent/kind of crappy health insurance I was out around $4-5K out-of-pocket counting the initial appointment, MRI, surgery, and all of the follow up appointments and physical therapy. I don't think I added up the "sticker price" of the whole thing, but it would have been in the $30-50K range. That would have had been bad. And that's a relatively minor operation on the scale of medical procedures.

You should have health insurance.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
FleaStiff
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August 6th, 2014 at 7:25:28 AM permalink
>First off, I hope this is the most applicable forum section for this topic.
Nope, this is DT stuff for sure.

>Background: In light of increasing health care costs, my company is closing out our health insurance policy.
Not necessarily a bad corporate decision. Look at Detroit.
>Everyone will be compensated on their salary for the additional cost that their health insurance coverage would have otherwise cost
>the company's bottom line.
In other words, each will get what would have been paid in premiums , but coverage is "cafeteria plan" of individual entres,
such as "pregnancy coverage" rather than one category such as "health care".

>We are both casual gamblers so we began discussing health insurance in general from the terms of a gambler.
Not a bad idea for any political activity.

>We know that insurance companies make slews of money.
Sure do.
> So that must mean there is a significant "house edge" factored into your insurance premiums
Sure is, and the industry is composed of various segments each with their own house edge.

>to cover the cost of doing business and provide them with profits.
"Costs" "Profits".... man that is like saying "water rights" in the old west: fighting words.
Ever been given a small package of hand tissues (Kleenex) ... that item 'costs' 200.00. Profits are built in too based on theoretical incentives toward capitalism and knowledge and Living Happily Ever After.

>What do you guys think?
Whatever the Wizard tells me to.
> Are you at advantage to simply take a similar wage deduction, place it into an account that draws interest
>and then pay any medical costs off of that amount?
Heck no, 'cause then you ain't got no Rabbi (NYC Cop Talk) In Vegas, it would "You Got No Juice".
You see, with no juice, you get different products. Control over patient flow is the key... join this plan or that plan and you will get some type of medicine but join nothing and its like having no juice, you ain't gonna get hired in a casino with no juice.
Plan A can get you something and Plan B can get you something but plan Independent can't get you nuttin'. Cause ultimately its the Plan's Juice Pullers that get you anything. You sittin' in the waiting room with a tree limb through your chest, Plan A might get you something good across town, Plan B might get you something good right there, but an Independent Plan will get you a nurse typing: S P L I N T E R.

>Obviously some people will get cancer, have a heart attack or other expensive procedure .....
Aw, Common...... lets talk 'bout a young broad working out in a gym instead. Much easier on the eyes than cancer.
She is thirty and we can give her some certificate for fresh organic fruits and vegetables each month and also a certificate for a free gym membership for a year. (This will benefit her life. We can also give the men in the gym some contact lenses that will make the young woman's work out clothes secretly appear to be transparent, because real costs are very low). The trouble is that we have to wait 35 years for the fresh fruits to give us ONE woman who will NOT need a breast cancer operation ... that "saving" will only benefit whoever would be her insurer at the time she needed the operation. It won't benefit the insurer who gave her the fruits and vegetables thirty years earlier).

>that will, in gambling terms, bust them out, but what are the odds?
Yipes. No one really knows. Death certificates have little relation to actual cause of death. And ain't no doctor ever gonna say "she failed to eat fruits and vegetables thirty five years ago.

You get a gunshot wound in Boston, you want it to be in a bad neighborhood where you are just one of many that night. If you get shot on the steps of Mass General, ain't nobody there gonna know what to do about a gunshot wound. So you are buying different things with your insurance money. Well, it depends. Water damage after a hurricane might be covered but not if you file it as a flood damage claim. Same thing in medicine. Get something and its spin the wheel. Doctors often engage in Watchful Waiting because its in a low compensation class now but if he gets worse its gonna qualify for dialysis and that is a GRAVY TRAIN. Health care is a big pie and we often waste time on how we slice it up, but each slice has its own lawyers and lobbyists. Hard to negotiate in advance what condition you will have.

>Is it safe to say we're playing a game with our insurance company that we can't win?
Yes. But you don't even know the name of the game you are playing. Woman unpacks crate of porcelain from China. Gets bit by mite from straw. You've heard of unknown motorist insurance... wait till you ask her if she has unknown mite insurance in a town 800 miles from a university. Woman loses use of fingers in lawn mower, ah... now there is a program we can deal with, she has insurance coverage for that.
Ibeatyouraces
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August 6th, 2014 at 7:32:09 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Jeepster
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August 6th, 2014 at 7:48:07 AM permalink
Bearing in mind I'm in the UK, my last medical treatment was for a hernia a few years back.
It's a minor operation that doesn't require any more than an out patient visit and some follow ups.
That suited me just fine, who wants overnight stays that aren't needed
The cost to me was zero, however I don't know what costs the hospital incurred in treating me, and to a excellent standard I should add
The point I'm making is, if it was done under private medical insurance I'm sure the final invoice
to the insurance company would have been padded out with unnecessary additions and be much larger than it needed to be.
Of course you can buy medical insurance in the UK and many employers provide it for their staff even though it's not strictly needed.
Its value is debatable, however if I lived in a country where there was no other option I would definitely buy it.
A photon without any luggage checks into a hotel, he's travelling light.
dwheatley
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August 6th, 2014 at 7:49:20 AM permalink
I read a great excerpt/chapter of a book that went into very good detail about self-insuring for all sorts of things. The author divided events into common vs rare, and materially insignificant (for you) vs life-changing financial impact.

Examples: extended warranties on electronic failures: common & insignificant.
Damage to car: rare & insignificant
New totalled car: rare & possibly significant
critical illness or death: rare & life-changing.

He argued that you should self-insure almost everything, by saving the premiums on any insurance purchase you would have made, or taking the highest deductible and pocketing the difference in premiums. You could put all these savings into a special 'insurance' savings account if you needed to, and draw from it whenever you want to 'make a claim'. If you are reasonably well off, he even recommends not insuring the body of your 1+year old car, because you can take the loss.

Do this, except for rare & life-changing events, where if you are unlucky, it ruins your life and/or the lives of people you care for. No modest +EV financial gain is worth that risk. Lesson: get some health insurance. Or move to Canada. Yay.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
AxelWolf
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August 6th, 2014 at 7:50:03 AM permalink
I think Djatc asked this very same question.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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August 6th, 2014 at 7:55:33 AM permalink
Strangely enough I had a Doctor and friend, I was trying to ask him what insurances he took and what was a good one, so I didn't have to pay him cash ( he knew I gambled ) He told me it was a bad bet during a visit, he based this on my age at the time. Very bad Advice even if it is -EV.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
FleaStiff
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August 6th, 2014 at 8:36:19 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I see it every day. My eyes hurt!

And the auto maker's books hurt due to escalating health care costs or retireees, so they packed it in.
FleaStiff
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August 6th, 2014 at 8:38:37 AM permalink
The UK has waiting lines, except for the rich.
The doctor salaries are fifty percent of what they are in the USA.

There are scandals that go unexposed due to lack of incentive for exposure.

That unlit parking lot can be a source of pressure for better care if a lawyer gets involved.

Many patients now make use of the Medical Travel industry. A whole industry involved with "surgery shopping" and "insurance shopping".

Going "naked" .... without insurance is considered fool hardy. Medical savings accounts get wiped out with the ambulance ride.

One research doctor got caught up in a chat room with a 13 year old girl. He was making 800,000 a year. His bail was sixty grand. His lawyer was eating up the rest, after two years of negotiation fees to a top knotch California attorney, he copped a deal for two years of prison. He was also divorced and lost his job.

One woman was having trouble in her marriage. Her insurance provided zero pre-break up counseling; but 13 weeks post break counseling. Did that policy help her?
rxwine
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August 6th, 2014 at 9:47:22 AM permalink
Having nothing costs 10k in Vegas for around 72 hours.

Vegas -- a couple years back.

-On the way out in the morning, I can tell something is wrong. Not sure what. Irregular heartbeat?
- go to quick care clinic, get EKG, IV, finds irregular rhythm (around $400 so far) this from my late bills
- Doctor sends for ambulance to transfer to main medical center ($900)
- Get trip into cardiac unit, harder to remember to itemize this part. Main doc $1000, two other docs a couple $1000. Some misc drugs and more monitoring, must of been another $1000, suggested treadmill test, that and the lab tests, and nurses, probably $50 to change sheets in the morning.

Anyway, the total was just north of 10K

Diagnosis. Didn't find anything, Got no treatment. No heart attack, No heart condition. Still alive, still not on heart treatment of any sort.

But I did have irregular rhythms.

NOTHING can be expensive.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AZDuffman
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August 6th, 2014 at 9:53:30 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff


One woman was having trouble in her marriage. Her insurance provided zero pre-break up counseling; but 13 weeks post break counseling. Did that policy help her?



"Counseling" covered by health insurance? Good grief!

Health Insurance as it is sold is a crappy deal. A male has to buy maternity coverage he will never use. We all have to buy substance abuse coverage which most of us probably do not want. It can cover all kinds of "extras" that spring up a "its free, we will bill your insurance!" industry. The person who prefers that $10K deductible to get a low premium is left out in the cold.

Americans think the doctor visit should cost $10 so they can spend their money on an oil change for $20.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Buzzard
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August 6th, 2014 at 11:42:28 AM permalink
It's LIFE insurance I have a problem with. The insurance company wants to be I will live. I need to bet they are wrong. What an AP that is ? ? ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Eaglesnest
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August 6th, 2014 at 12:27:30 PM permalink
Nominally, health insurance is a bad bet, as any insurance offered by a profitable company must be. However, this is "certibus paribus"--all other things being equal. You are not insuring against the cost of medical treatment so much as you are insuring against the catastrophic loss of income caused by a debilitating injury or illness. Mathematically, you should be able to, before you die, earn enough money to pay for all medical treatment that you will require in your lifetime, without any need for insurance (and actuarial tables are constructed just for that purpose: so that over the course of your lifetime, you should pay out more than you collect). However, the situation of undergoing a medical procedure at, say, age 40 and then being in hock for the next fifteen or twenty years is untenable for most people and more importantly, not tolerable for the powers that be--to have a significant portion of the population beholden to some medical provider for procedures they couldn't afford outright. Thus, we pay a "premium" in that every medical insurance payment we make is -EV.

The same situation exists in auto collision insurance. We SHOULD, from a rational standpoint, simply accept the risk that we may drive our shiny new Ford Mastodon into a ditch the first week we own it and then be obligated to make the payments anyway for the life of the loan and in the meantime, drive a ten-year-old beater. This is actually a better bet than paying collision insurance, and the insurance companies have made sure of that.

The difference, I think, is that the impact on quality of life from a catastrophic outcome, being subjective, is different for every person. I could live without my new car, but I don't think I could live with a serious untreated (or undertreated) medical condition. Of course, in terms of medical care, no one should ever have to make that choice. Aside from your personal political convictions, etc. etc., I think it is better for the body politic if as few people as possible have to make such a decision. It could easily be a perfectly rational choice for someone to NOT obtain medical insurance--or medical treatment, if uninsured. You really don't want that to happen, though, as there will be a far greater cost to society down the road--either that person will develop a more serious condition that will require costly emergency intervention, or rich people will have to step over his corpse as it lies on the sidewalk.
kewlj
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August 6th, 2014 at 12:59:00 PM permalink
Here is my experience with health insurance: Early in my career, when I was in my early and mid 20's, and on a shoe string budget, trying to build my bankroll, I didn't have insurance and frankly it wasn't even something I as a healthy young adult even considered. I guess 4 years ago, I broke my collarbone, not a really serious medical situation, but I had to pay cash for everything, emergency room, emergency doctors, follow up doctor visits ect. It wasn't a massive amount of money, but it was still money going out, during a time that I was laid up for a while and that got me thinking, what if something much bigger, much more serious and costly occurred. For a person who AP's for a living, or I guess any self employed person, it is sort of a double whammy, because you will be unable to do whatever you do for a living, meaning no money coming in, but you will accumulate massive medical bills at the same time. I decided that since I was at the point, that I was beginning to make a reasonable living, health insurance would be beneficial to me and if not +EV, it would at least be peace of mind. So I got a plan with reasonable high deductibles figuring that was sort of a good compromise.

Wouldn't you know, the following year, I did have a major illness, contracting infective endocarditis, with is a bacterial infection in the blood or spread through the blood that settles into and eats away the heart valves and lining. It came on very quickly, I was sick for a few days and by the time I sought medical attention, quite a bit of damage was done, requiring heart valve replacement surgery. I was laid up for 3 full months, and suffered a bit of complications, during recovery and accumulated significant medical bills. These amounts would have wiped me out if I had to pay them with no insurance, or I would have had to file for bankruptcy or not pay the bills and deal with bad credit. I don't know how it would have played out, but for me, looking back, it was a good decision and lucky timing. In the 3 years since, I have suffered some sort of ailment every year, torn ACL in my leg requiring surgery, and a couple melanoma surgeries this year and it just seems like a really good idea for me, or someone in my position. You don't need the double whammy of down time, with no money coming in, on top of huge medical expenses.

djatc, axelwolf, I recommend you guys look into insurance, if only one of the cheaper policies with a higher deductible that will protect you against something really big. I know it is one of those things that is far from your mind for a healthy young person, but worth considering, in our line of work, IMO
AxiomOfChoice
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August 6th, 2014 at 1:07:44 PM permalink
Quote: Eaglesnest

Nominally, health insurance is a bad bet, as any insurance offered by a profitable company must be.



That's only true from an EV standpoint. But EV is not everything. It is mathematically sound to pay to offload variance (ie, hedge, insure, or whatever you want to call it) in some situations (as defined by the Kelly Criterion).

For a gross oversimplification:

Suppose your total net worth is $1,000,000. Suppose that, if you get some expensive-to-treat disease, it will cost you $500,000 to treat it. Furthermore suppose that your probability of getting that disease is 1 in 1000.

Buying insurance is 0EV at a price of $500. However, we do not want to maximize E(net worth). We want to maximize E(log(net worth)). Therefore you should be willing to pay up to $692.90 for this insurance, even though this "bet" has a "house edge" of 27.84%!
odiousgambit
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August 6th, 2014 at 1:57:42 PM permalink
I don't know, guys.

A 60 yr old male who gets the cheapest insurance possible ... with $6000 deductible ... in my state will lay out about $31000 in insurance before he gets covered by Medicare. That's if inflation in the cost of his premium is only 8% per year.

You do have to wait till the next enrollment period to fix the problem of 'no insurance with a chronic expensive condition', but it is fixable then since previous conditions do not prevent getting coverage once sick. Anecdotally that seems to be some $80-100k thing, any further catastrophe also covered by the same tactic.

You pay the first $6k yourself. At 6% interest with the same amount invested monthly, you'd earn about $6500, so you're costing yourself that too.

Total cost $31k + 6.5k = $37.5k to cover a practical max of $100k [yep I know it could be more] and you can take it off your taxes should it happen. Under these assumptions you almost have to say there would have to be a 100% chance of a medical catastrophe before it makes sense to do that [and with the assumption you do have the money].

I will continue to lay out this money to keep peace with my wife. Well, OK, a certain amount of personal peace too. But the fact is, this stuff is too expensive [then again if I get pregnant I'll be all set]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
teddys
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August 7th, 2014 at 6:39:21 PM permalink
I pay $278 a month for coverage through ObamaCare. My deductible is $2000. No way I am going to spend that much in health care costs this year, unless something catastrophic happens. I went to my new doctor and she laughed at me, said "You are too healthy to come in here." I am definitely subsidizing everybody else. I don't really have a problem with that -- I'm a socialist in that respect.

My car insurance is $111 a month. THAT I have a problem with. Why am I spending so much to insure a goddamn machine?

I wish my employer offered a nice plan but they cover absolutely nothing. Technically, I'm not even employed by them.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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August 7th, 2014 at 6:43:18 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
EvenBob
EvenBob
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August 7th, 2014 at 7:29:07 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Insurance, of any kind, is the third biggest scam ever invented by man. Religion and social security are numbers 1 & 2 respectively.



Health insurance is high because there are so many
bad doctors getting sued all the time. So they have
to charge a lot to pay for THEIR insurance.

My doc charges $350 for a yearly physical. He
has his own lab in the office for blood work. The
nurse hooks up the EKG and a reading comes
out. The doc comes in, looks at the tests results,
the blood work, says everything is OK, asks if
there any problems, and leaves.

How much out of pocket was that for him. $75
tops cause he paid for the machines ages ago.
The rest goes for office rent and his malpractice
insurance.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
djatc
djatc
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August 8th, 2014 at 5:48:37 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj


djatc, axelwolf, I recommend you guys look into insurance, if only one of the cheaper policies with a higher deductible that will protect you against something really big. I know it is one of those things that is far from your mind for a healthy young person, but worth considering, in our line of work, IMO



I've always thought insurance was stupid, since I never have used enough medical care to justify the cost, but I have come around from that train of thought to I will pay for it, but I hope nothing bad ever happens to me.

Although life insurance seems extremely -EV. I brought up this topic before and still agree it is a bad bet. My beneficiary is my mom and she is relatively well off, and I hope to god I don't die before her.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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August 13th, 2014 at 11:07:52 AM permalink
Quote: djatc

I've always thought insurance was stupid, since I never have used enough medical care to justify the cost, but I have come around from that train of thought to I will pay for it, but I hope nothing bad ever happens to me.

Although life insurance seems extremely -EV. I brought up this topic before and still agree it is a bad bet. My beneficiary is my mom and she is relatively well off, and I hope to god I don't die before her.


Life insurance doesn't make any sense at all until you have a family that depends on you. In that case, it can be worth some peace of mind.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
rxwine
rxwine
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August 13th, 2014 at 12:24:41 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Life insurance doesn't make any sense at all until you have a family that depends on you. In that case, it can be worth some peace of mind.



Do they offer locked in lower rates if you buy it before you have a family? That's how they get you to consider buying something before you need it.

I know some companies have sold policies to children (parents pay for it) but it locks in low rates. So, it's actually the child's adult policy. The child takes over the low rate payments when he becomes an adult.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
DRich
DRich
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August 13th, 2014 at 2:02:18 PM permalink
I was recently denied for a life insurance policy so the only thing my wife will get is the memories and wisdom that I have left for her.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
joycemiranda
joycemiranda
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Joined: Feb 14, 2019
February 14th, 2019 at 11:23:11 PM permalink
I appreciate that post. I don't it's bad to do a health insurance as it's getting expensive day by day and I don't want to spend that much on health issues.
jjjoooggg
jjjoooggg
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February 15th, 2019 at 8:06:07 PM permalink
I think that the main benefit of health insurance is catastrophic coverage. The kinds where you have to spend 100's of thousands to millions of dollars for treatment.

The health insurance coverage of seeing a doctor for check ups is not a good return of investment.

But the cost of seeing a doctor in the emergency room is very costly.

I wonder if you can pay out of pocket to see a doctor at a reasonable rate for injuries.

I'm curious if you can see a doctor and still get prescriptions without health insurance.

What is the chance of getting cancer per age?

If you get into a serious car wreck. The emergency room bill could be 100's of thousands

I guess if you were extremely wealthy into the millions, you could take the chance of coming out ahead if you paid for everything in cash.

But for normal people insurance would take the risk out

I don't think that hospitals can deny treatment if you have no insurance. But hospitals do get stiffed for bills.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/million-dollar-health-bills-have-spiked-and-expensive-drugs-are-playing-a-major-role-2018-07-16
Last edited by: jjjoooggg on Feb 15, 2019
Born in Texas and lived in Texas my whole life.
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