Nareed
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July 24th, 2014 at 10:51:38 AM permalink
Quote: MrWarmth

Nareed mentions the "abortion = holocaust" faction, and while that faction exists, I can't see an example of an abortion supporter being vilified in the media and ousted from, say, a CEO position like Brenden Eich was.



That's very true.

But can you see millions of immigrants living in the shadows, plus lately thousands of children stuck in legal limbo, as a result from an anti-immigrant policy vociferously advocated by many prominent conservatives?

Now, before you say conservatives favor legal immigration, and their problem is with people who come illegally to the US, look up current US immigration laws. It is practically impossible to immigrate legally to the US unless you have one or more of the following: 1) money, 2) family in America, 3) a job waiting for you in America, 4) a PhD in the physical sciences or math, 5) a US citizen for a spouse. To that add a lot of patience and several years, say ten to fifteen years.

Think about this when you hear someone advise a dirt-poor peasant who can barely provide for his family to get in line and come in legally. It reminds me always of Marie Antoinette saying "then let them eat cake," when told the poor could not afford bread.

Consider, too, the also very popualr notion on the right to "secure the borders." That would be tantamount to the Berlin Wall writ extremely large, though perhaps without the machine-guns at the guard towers.

How do you reconcile this gigantic meddling in the supply of labor with free markets and individual freedom?

After all, all those millions of illegals currently in the US are mostly employed, pay some taxes (at the very least sales taxes and the draconian gas taxes, likely a lot more than that directly and indirectly) and most important never depressed wages in the US as you'd expect if they were nothing but surplus labor.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
djatc
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July 24th, 2014 at 11:07:49 AM permalink
I am strongly opposed to illegal immigration. Send them all back to where they came from.
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Lemieux66
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July 24th, 2014 at 11:20:48 AM permalink
Quote: djatc

I am strongly opposed to illegal immigration. Send them all back to where they came from.



(Hand on Heart) We. The. People.
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
terapined
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July 24th, 2014 at 11:34:55 AM permalink
Quote: djatc

I am strongly opposed to illegal immigration. Send them all back to where they came from.



Hand on Heart, waving a USA flag and reciting the most beautiful poem I have ever read in my life.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door"
djatc
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July 24th, 2014 at 11:42:03 AM permalink
Somehow we magically have money to take care of all these illegals. What's a few more trillion dollars?

mods please make a new thread if this topic is too off topic.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
Nareed
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July 24th, 2014 at 12:07:02 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Hand on Heart, waving a USA flag and reciting the most beautiful poem I have ever read in my life.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door"



Revoked by the Republican Party with help from the Democratic Party in the late 90s.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
MrWarmth
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July 25th, 2014 at 12:06:46 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

That's very true.

But can you see millions of immigrants living in the shadows, plus lately thousands of children stuck in legal limbo, as a result from an anti-immigrant policy vociferously advocated by many prominent conservatives?

Now, before you say conservatives favor legal immigration, and their problem is with people who come illegally to the US, look up current US immigration laws. It is practically impossible to immigrate legally to the US unless you have one or more of the following: 1) money, 2) family in America, 3) a job waiting for you in America, 4) a PhD in the physical sciences or math, 5) a US citizen for a spouse. To that add a lot of patience and several years, say ten to fifteen years.

Think about this when you hear someone advise a dirt-poor peasant who can barely provide for his family to get in line and come in legally. It reminds me always of Marie Antoinette saying "then let them eat cake," when told the poor could not afford bread.

Consider, too, the also very popualr notion on the right to "secure the borders." That would be tantamount to the Berlin Wall writ extremely large, though perhaps without the machine-guns at the guard towers.

How do you reconcile this gigantic meddling in the supply of labor with free markets and individual freedom?

After all, all those millions of illegals currently in the US are mostly employed, pay some taxes (at the very least sales taxes and the draconian gas taxes, likely a lot more than that directly and indirectly) and most important never depressed wages in the US as you'd expect if they were nothing but surplus labor.



With all due respect, this is a force field thrown up by people who have no real answer and knowingly choose to hide behind "compassion" and think it's morally high-enough ground to win the issue. At least, I don't see anything like a suggestion for a solution in the post, only an attack on the conservative way ... which is exactly what I said in an earlier post. It's precisely the willful decision to ignore the effects of this "compassion" that leads to a situation of unconscionable not-compassion. Whatever is going on now, it's not compassionate. It's the tearing away of children from their parents on a promise of charity that $20 trillion of debt, more than half of which was brought on in the last six years, says we can't provide and is unsustainable.

Any virtue, compassion or otherwise, when pursued to the exclusion of all other virtues, becomes a vice. Personally, knowing what I know about the insides of the leftist movement, the "force field" is not really borne of true compassion, but of a political end. That means, it's a lie. I'm not saying you're incompassionate; I'm saying you're believing a lie to serve a political end. And I implore you to not believe it any longer.

It is a far stronger argument to state that immigration in the tradition of immigration is what made us strong, and to not-immigrate in that same way is far more brutal than just tearing away children from their parents. I'm not saying everyone has to go to Ellis Island. I'm saying Ellis Island has to go to everyone. Nobody is against immigration. Those on the right are against the incompassionate flood of people following a promise given by the left that simply cannot be honored. This given in exchange for votes, which is about as un-American a proposition as can possibly be put forward.

And, with all due respect to the forum members on the left, that is the same side that has said "if you like your doctor, you can keep him", "your health insurance costs will go down," "IRS scandal was a only couple of zealots," "Russia is a 1980s era problem," "the world is more tranquil now than it has been in a long while," "the hard drives were recycled," "Benghazi was caused by a video," "Arab spring," "71 execute changes to a law, which is unconstitutional," "nuclear option to pass Obamacare," ... shall I go on? Any spouse, friend, relative, whatever that lied to you so badly and so consistently would be met, at least, with terrific skepticism. Yet our leftist members embrace it, which is just beyond my comprehension for any sane, compassionate, loving, caring human being. Any movement that furthers its agenda on lies will cram a dick in your ass at some point, no matter how much faith you put in it.

This kind of naiveté and failure of judgment is far more than random. I win half the roulette bets on "black" that I place ... this current crew has, literally, been wrong on everything.

There is literally no sane reason to take anything said by this movement at face value any more, and that includes any pleas of virtue that have, without exception, been shown to be force fields designed to oppress political opposition rather than help people.

I'm not saying to not be liberal. I'm not saying to not vote Democrat. I am saying that the liberal movement, as manifested in the Democrat party of today, is both wrong and duplicitous, and I cannot see a sane reason to support it other than the utter destruction of America as founded.

I would stand against it if the right did this. Our leftist friends do not appear to be willing to do the same.
SanchoPanza
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July 25th, 2014 at 6:46:25 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Revoked by the Republican Party with help from the Democratic Party in the late 90s.

The president for the vast majority of the 90's was a Democrat. Of course, he was primarily occupied with other interests and their concomitant activities.
SanchoPanza
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July 25th, 2014 at 6:51:49 AM permalink
Quote: MrWarmth

I'm not saying to not be liberal. I'm not saying to not vote Democrat. I am saying that the liberal movement, as manifested in the Democrat party of today, is both wrong and duplicitous, and I cannot see a sane reason to support it other than the utter destruction of America as founded. I would stand against it if the right did this. Our leftist friends do not appear to be willing to do the same.

A lifelong Democrat, liberal activist, former "community organizer" and antiwar and air-raid-drill protester endorses that.
Nareed
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July 25th, 2014 at 7:01:32 AM permalink
Looks like I touched a nerve.


Quote: MrWarmth

At least, I don't see anything like a suggestion for a solution in the post, only an attack on the conservative way ... which is exactly what I said in an earlier post.



So you don't need to offer solutions along with criticism, but others are required to? Why? Would a solution amke the criticism more or less valid?

In any case, there is a very simple solution (*)

Quote:

It's precisely the willful decision to ignore the effects of this "compassion" that leads to a situation of unconscionable not-compassion.



When did i even mention compassion? I'm talking about markets, supply, demand and government meddling in those markets.

Quote:

Nobody is against immigration.



Much of the right wing of the GOP is.

Quote:

Those on the right are against the incompassionate flood of people following a promise given by the left that simply cannot be honored. This given in exchange for votes, which is about as un-American a proposition as can possibly be put forward.



That's a bit too long for a sound-bite, don't you think?

besides, if you see welfare as a problem, and it surely is, then why don't you tackel welfare? Saying "We must restrict immigration because we have a problem with welfare," is akin to saying "we must crack down hard on non-vioent drug users because we have a violent crime problem." (but then that's another can of worms many on the right like to play with).


(*) And here it is:

Open up legal immigration.

I don't mean open borders, but get rid of all quotas, sponsorships, money requirements, skills, etc. Simply allow up to 2 million (the number is given as an example, it could be higher or lower) poeple per year to enter and reside legally on a first-come first-served basis. Naturally exceptions should be amde for people with a criminal record, those suspected of being affiliated with terrorist groups, those with easily contagious diseases, and backgrounds can be cheked as much as you want.

Obviously there is a need for labor, skilled and unskilled, beyond what America alone can provide. That's why there are now millions of illegal immigrants inside for years without them causing a depression in wages or purchasing power.

If you do this, then the borders can be more easily secured without having to turn them into a large-scale version of the Berlin Wall. Immigrants would apply at embassies and consualtes in their home country, then enter through regular channels lilke broder crossings and airports. There would be no need for elaborate smuggling groups to keep networks of illegal routes open. Illegal crossings would be fewer and more sporadic.

More important, a lot of those living there illegally would very likely leave.

Yes, I know what I said. Before the border got militarized and fences were put up, many illegals went up there for seasonal work (mostly farm and farm-related work) and then returned home. But when crossing the border became so much ahrder, they very naturally opted to stay year-round. Not to mention to bring up their families as well.

And if you're so concerend with welfare but lack the will to fix that, then simply pass a law that states immigrants cannot receive any Federal government benefits for five years. You can amke it so they can receive benefits, too, only after residing in te country for five consecutive years, too (this doens't mean they can't go abroad on vacation, but that they cannot leave the US for months at a time; it's a matter of simple definitions, say of a year meaning at elast ten months of actual residence).

Now let's hear your solutions about all your criticisms.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
RonC
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November 21st, 2014 at 8:16:19 AM permalink
President Obama, using the excuse that "other Presidents did it", has decided to give millions of illegal aliens the opportunity to stay here after sneaking across our border. Meanwhile, millions wait to immigrate using the proper channels.

He said for all these years that taking executive action wouldn't be the right thing to do...now it is...

Of course, unless you can override a veto, there is little chance of getting much done anyway. His method of "negotiating" is pretty much "my way or the highway"...so there is little chance a real immigration bill could get done. He didn't even try to do it when he had the chance (control of both houses of Congress); now he couldn't get a bill passed without compromise and he doesn't know how to do that.
boymimbo
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November 21st, 2014 at 8:33:37 AM permalink
Quote: MrWarmth

With all due respect, this is a force field thrown up by people who have no real answer and knowingly choose to hide behind "compassion" and think it's morally high-enough ground to win the issue. At least, I don't see anything like a suggestion for a solution in the post, only an attack on the conservative way ... which is exactly what I said in an earlier post. It's precisely the willful decision to ignore the effects of this "compassion" that leads to a situation of unconscionable not-compassion. Whatever is going on now, it's not compassionate. It's the tearing away of children from their parents on a promise of charity that $20 trillion of debt, more than half of which was brought on in the last six years, says we can't provide and is unsustainable.

Any virtue, compassion or otherwise, when pursued to the exclusion of all other virtues, becomes a vice. Personally, knowing what I know about the insides of the leftist movement, the "force field" is not really borne of true compassion, but of a political end. That means, it's a lie. I'm not saying you're incompassionate; I'm saying you're believing a lie to serve a political end. And I implore you to not believe it any longer.

It is a far stronger argument to state that immigration in the tradition of immigration is what made us strong, and to not-immigrate in that same way is far more brutal than just tearing away children from their parents. I'm not saying everyone has to go to Ellis Island. I'm saying Ellis Island has to go to everyone. Nobody is against immigration. Those on the right are against the incompassionate flood of people following a promise given by the left that simply cannot be honored. This given in exchange for votes, which is about as un-American a proposition as can possibly be put forward.

And, with all due respect to the forum members on the left, that is the same side that has said "if you like your doctor, you can keep him", "your health insurance costs will go down," "IRS scandal was a only couple of zealots," "Russia is a 1980s era problem," "the world is more tranquil now than it has been in a long while," "the hard drives were recycled," "Benghazi was caused by a video," "Arab spring," "71 execute changes to a law, which is unconstitutional," "nuclear option to pass Obamacare," ... shall I go on? Any spouse, friend, relative, whatever that lied to you so badly and so consistently would be met, at least, with terrific skepticism. Yet our leftist members embrace it, which is just beyond my comprehension for any sane, compassionate, loving, caring human being. Any movement that furthers its agenda on lies will cram a dick in your ass at some point, no matter how much faith you put in it.

This kind of naiveté and failure of judgment is far more than random. I win half the roulette bets on "black" that I place ... this current crew has, literally, been wrong on everything.

There is literally no sane reason to take anything said by this movement at face value any more, and that includes any pleas of virtue that have, without exception, been shown to be force fields designed to oppress political opposition rather than help people.

I'm not saying to not be liberal. I'm not saying to not vote Democrat. I am saying that the liberal movement, as manifested in the Democrat party of today, is both wrong and duplicitous, and I cannot see a sane reason to support it other than the utter destruction of America as founded.

I would stand against it if the right did this. Our leftist friends do not appear to be willing to do the same.



Good post.

The liberal movement, in its extreme form, of course, is wrong and duplicitous, as is the conservative movement. Both sides are out to get re-elected, at all costs. This includes pandering to immigrants, a growing segment of the population.

There are smart people who vote Democrat, and there are smart people who vote Republican. Where you stand on key issues (if you are capable of independently thinking) will determine how you vote. You might be a Christian and are pretty much forced to vote Republican because of their right to life stance. You might be forced to vote Democrat for your stance on how you feel about gay marriage and the right to choose. Studies have shown that the number of unintelligent people are about the same on both sides of the aisle.

Most democrats understand that the extreme statements on Benghazi, the IRS, tranqulity, etc, made by their party members are misleading at best and that the truth lies in the middle, but at the same time, the right pushing on these minor issues is a bit wrong too because they are doing it to score political points too, not to do what's right. It is all political gamesmanship. The democrats of course want to sweep all of these under the rug, while the Republicans want to keep it out in the open, while the public just wants both sides to move along and fix what's important to them: the economy, jobs, their health, education, highways, roads, clean air, access to cheap oil (but not so cheap to shut down industry), and so on and so forth. Benghazi killed a few -- it is not important to the majority of people in the United States; the IRS "scandal" affected a few right winged tea-partiers and really don't have an effect on one's daily life.

It's the important stuff that sway voters: Americans fighting an unjust war; the need to be protective after 9/11; the economy; health care; moral stances on gay marriage, abortion, immigration and things that are perceived to change one's way of life. And the quality of the candidate and people's belief of their ability to lead and support them on issues that they believe in are important too.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
AZDuffman
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November 21st, 2014 at 8:35:10 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

President Obama, using the excuse that "other Presidents did it", has decided to give millions of illegal aliens the opportunity to stay here after sneaking across our border. Meanwhile, millions wait to immigrate using the proper channels.

He said for all these years that taking executive action wouldn't be the right thing to do...now it is...

Of course, unless you can override a veto, there is little chance of getting much done anyway. His method of "negotiating" is pretty much "my way or the highway"...so there is little chance a real immigration bill could get done. He didn't even try to do it when he had the chance (control of both houses of Congress); now he couldn't get a bill passed without compromise and he doesn't know how to do that.




Obama doesn't understand that if he wants congress to work for him doing this kind if thing just poisons the well. He is just clueless.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
boymimbo
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November 21st, 2014 at 8:38:17 AM permalink
As for immigration, the US government can be as protective as it wants to be. I get to work and live in the United States because my employer has US operations and I am a professional (which gives me an L-1) or because my wife is American. Those people without those ties are pretty much screwed, and frankly should be, with the exception of perhaps humanitarian reasons. But that is up the the current level of compassion and political will at the federal level.

Personally, I beleive that the United States is a country where it is compassionate and should allow people in based on humanitarian grounds. That is, refugees running away from an oppressive government. As for children of illegals, they should probably be sent back with their parents to their home countries if the parents do not qualify under humanitarian or other grounds.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Dalex64
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November 21st, 2014 at 9:00:41 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Obama doesn't understand that if he wants congress to work for him doing this kind if thing just poisons the well. He is just clueless.



"Poisoning the well" is just an excuse by the Republicans to do what they were already going to do anyway.
ams288
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November 21st, 2014 at 9:54:54 AM permalink
Quote: Dalex64

"Poisoning the well" is just an excuse by the Republicans to do what they were already going to do anyway.



+100

Obama waking up each morning "poisions the well" for the crazy right wingers.

I'm glad he did what he did.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
AZDuffman
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November 21st, 2014 at 10:11:25 AM permalink
Quote: Dalex64

"Poisoning the well" is just an excuse by the Republicans to do what they were already going to do anyway.



No, not at all. If you know you need to deal with someone you do not go out of your way to antagonize them. Since he got elected, Obama has acted like the GOP is a bigger enemy than our real enemies. Never stops attacking for this or that. Then when he needs something he wonders why he can't get anyone on the other side of tie aisle to work with him.

It is like the guy who had a flight bumped then calls the ticket agent every name in the book, then he wonders why his reschedule is so terrible.

And he gets upset that he gets the same kind of obstruction that he did himself when he was a Senator.

Hey, I might be glad he did what he did. Now when a GOP POTUS wants to just suspend parts of the Clean Air Act, gun laws, or any other law they do not like they can just say, "Hey, congress won't do what I told them to do so I will do it anyways!"
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
ams288
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November 21st, 2014 at 10:25:10 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Hey, I might be glad he did what he did. Now when a GOP POTUS wants to just suspend parts of the Clean Air Act, gun laws, or any other law they do not like they can just say, "Hey, congress won't do what I told them to do so I will do it anyways!"



It'll be a while before we have to deal with a GOP POTUS.

The GOP can win midterms when a third of the country shows up. But they're going to keep have problems winning the popular vote in Presidential election years. Especially with the far-right cuckoo birds currently running the party.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
AZDuffman
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November 21st, 2014 at 10:37:11 AM permalink
Quote: ams288

It'll be a while before we have to deal with a GOP POTUS.



Two years is not that long.

Quote:

The GOP can win midterms when a third of the country shows up. But they're going to keep have problems winning the popular vote in Presidential election years. Especially with the far-right cuckoo birds currently running the party.



And the far-left cukoo-birds are running the Democrat Party. Heck, the Democrat front runner doesn't think private enterprise creates jobs. Talk about out-of-the-mainstream.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
djatc
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November 21st, 2014 at 11:28:58 AM permalink
My stance is still the same on illegal immigration, what can congress do if the president signs the eo? How is rewarding people who break the law accomplish anything (except for more voters for the democrats)?
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
soxfan
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November 21st, 2014 at 2:30:00 PM permalink
How do you know when genocidal anti-White, insane, evil political scum are lying? It's simple, their lips are moving, hey hey!


“In fact, the distribution of limited quota immigration can have no significant effect on the ethnic balance of the United States. … Total quota immigration is now 156,782; under the proposed bill, it would rise to 164,482. Even if all these immigrants came from Italy, for example, the net effect would be to increase the number of Italo-Americans by one-tenth of 1 percent of our population this year, and less as our population increases. Americans of Italian extraction now constitute about 4 percent of our population; at this rate, considering our own natural increase, it would take until the year 2000 to increase that proportion to 6 percent. Of course, S.500 would make no such radical change. Immigration from any single country would be limited to 10 percent of the total-16,500-with the possible exception of the two countries now sending more than that number, Great Britain and Germany. But the extreme case should set to rest any fears that this bill will change the ethnic, political, or economic makeup of the United States. … [w]e bar immigration by those individuals who would compete for jobs for which the supply of labor is adequate for the demand … we bar immigration by individuals who have demonstrated that they do not hold such allegiance [to our fundamental precepts of political freedom and democratic government]. … If it is true that those from northern Europe, as individuals, can make greater contributions to this country than can others, then this legislation will bring them here. If the legislation does not bring them here, then the assumptions on which defenders of the present system rely are wholly false. … [S.500] will facilitate the entry of skilled specialists … the level of immigration now proposed is far less than that thought `assimilable` by the most restrictionist Congress [1924] in our history. … As far as the quota system, it [S.500] increases it about 9,000 and as far as a practical matter, it increases it about 50,000. It is not a large number.”(Senate Part 1, Book 2, pp.216-218, 226, 242)
Ted "the swimmer" Kennedy on the evil immigration act of 1965
http://www.vdare.com/articles/so-much-for-promises-quotes-re-1965-immigration-act
" Life is a well of joy; but where the rabble drinks too, all wells are poisoned!" Nietzsche
bobsims
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November 21st, 2014 at 4:43:45 PM permalink
Quote: ams288

It'll be a while before we have to deal with a GOP POTUS.

The GOP can win midterms when a third of the country shows up. But they're going to keep have problems winning the popular vote in Presidential election years. Especially with the far-right cuckoo birds currently running the party.



After 6 years of extremist government the people just elected 300 Republicans to Congress. The last time there were this many Republicans in Congress the Yankees lineup featured Babe Ruth in right field and Lou Gehrig at first base.
Say what you will about Nobama, Reid, Pelosi, Corzine, etc. one can't deny they are the best things to happen to Republicans since Jefferson Davis. With another 2 years of the Party Of Sharpton Republicans may win over 40 states.
RS
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November 21st, 2014 at 4:58:01 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

more voters for the democrats



This.
RonC
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November 23rd, 2014 at 5:10:43 AM permalink
"Finally, the first biting political spoof from Saturday Night Live in a while: the Bill from Schoolhouse Rock explains to a student how he becomes a law, only to be violently beat up by Barack Obama and his new best friend, “Executive Order.”"

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/snls-obama-shoves-the-schoolhouse-rock-bill-down-the-capital-steps/
RonC
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November 23rd, 2014 at 5:18:51 AM permalink
Quote: djatc

My stance is still the same on illegal immigration, what can congress do if the president signs the eo? How is rewarding people who break the law accomplish anything (except for more voters for the democrats)?



These "Executive Orders" may or may not help the President's party with the Latino vote but they won't produce any new voters anytime soon--the kids born here ("anchor babies") are already citizens and can vote when they come of age; their illegal but now ignored in place parents can't vote because they aren't citizens. Without laws bringing the illegals full circle to citizenship, we'll just keep enlarging a group of taxpayers who can't move forward and become citizens in the future.

Not all Latinos are in favor of making illegals "legal"...so it doesn't even mean that the Democrats will get as many votes as they think they will depending on how things are handled by both parties.

The only way these illegals suddenly made "legal" can impact the actual vote as it is cast (they can campaign, etc. for whatever) is to vote illegally. Hey--just one more reason for solid voter ID laws!

These folks may end up being more voters for one side than the other, but that isn't going to be a major impact for a long time.
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