Lemieux66
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July 17th, 2014 at 4:30:42 PM permalink
I got into a conversation with a co-worker about this(more like I mentioned it lol). I told her that I would sell my middle toe for 100k. She looked at me like I was crazy, but I know I can do big things with that. Plus it's one middle toe. Nothing that important I think.
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
AxiomOfChoice
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July 17th, 2014 at 4:31:37 PM permalink
Quote: Lemieux66

I got into a conversation with a co-worker about this(more like I mentioned it lol). I told her that I would sell my middle toe for 100k. She looked at me like I was crazy, but I know I can do big things with that. Plus it's one middle toe. Nothing that important I think.



What could you do with 100k?
Wizard
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July 17th, 2014 at 4:35:51 PM permalink
Is is just me or does anybody else not object to the legalized selling of body organs? For example, a billionaire needs a kidney and a destitute janitor with six kids in India is willing to sell him a matching one for half a million dollars. Who is benefiting by prohibiting the transaction?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MrV
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July 17th, 2014 at 4:38:11 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Is is just me or does anybody else not object to the legalized selling of body organs? For example, a billionaire needs a kidney and a destitute janitor with six kids in India is willing to sell him a matching one for half a million dollars. Who is benefiting by prohibiting the transaction?





Not much different than a woman selling her hair, or people selling plasma.
"What, me worry?"
Wizard
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July 17th, 2014 at 4:40:07 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Not much different than a woman selling her hair, or people selling plasma.



I agree. I think the usual argument against it is that it is too much of an abuse of the class system. However, to that I say "wake up, it isn't a classless society." In fact, I see it as a way for some wealth to trickle down to the poor and save lives at the same time.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Lemieux66
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July 17th, 2014 at 5:09:33 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

What could you do with 100k?



Investments. AP opportunities. Bigger poker bankroll. Probably put a portion into a CD.
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
djatc
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July 17th, 2014 at 5:16:31 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Is is just me or does anybody else not object to the legalized selling of body organs? For example, a billionaire needs a kidney and a destitute janitor with six kids in India is willing to sell him a matching one for half a million dollars. Who is benefiting by prohibiting the transaction?



The only problem I would see is a race to the bottom for prices.
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rudeboyoi
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July 17th, 2014 at 5:24:24 PM permalink
Selling your organs is similar to legalizing prostitution and stopping the war on drugs. Its your body. No one else has any right to say what you can and can't do with it.
SOOPOO
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July 17th, 2014 at 5:25:31 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Is is just me or does anybody else not object to the legalized selling of body organs? For example, a billionaire needs a kidney and a destitute janitor with six kids in India is willing to sell him a matching one for half a million dollars. Who is benefiting by prohibiting the transaction?



I agree with the Wiz. Let consenting adults do what they want to do. I believe it of course already is happening in countries like India, just the price is FAR less than $500,000 that is paid to the donor.

As far as the middle toe, on one foot..... It would impact your life negligibly... But my price would be 7 figures.... Not sure why so high....
kewlj
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July 17th, 2014 at 5:27:23 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I agree. I think the usual argument against it is that it is too much of an abuse of the class system. However, to that I say "wake up, it isn't a classless society." In fact, I see it as a way for some wealth to trickle down to the poor and save lives at the same time.




I think it's a slippery slope, wiz. You are moving towards 'harvesting'. What if instead of a kidney, which a person can give up and still live, someone is willing to 'sell' his heart? Is that ok too?

What if the person donating isn't really given a say? The Bob Casey Sr (governor Casey of Pa) comes to mind. The way I understand the story, a poor black kid, 21 was beaten nearly to death on a Sunday afternoon in what was likely a drug related incident. He lay in a coma for 6 days. The following Friday, Governor Casey was having his tests and prelim procedures done to place him on the transplant list. Wouldn't you know this 21 year old black kid was a match for the governor. On Saturday morning, the Boys mother 'decided' she wanted her son to be an organ donor and several hours later, he was taken off life-support and Governor Casey who magically ascended the list received the boys heart and liver.

There is much crying about Governor Casey moving up the list, But I am more interested in the epiphany that the mother had that all of the sudden she wanted her son to be an organ donor? Did money change hands? Did she 'sell' her son's organs before he was even dead? And maybe more importantly, was everything possible still done to save the 21 year old. I mean the day before, the entire week before, there was no such rush to remove the boy from life-support. As soon as he is match for the Governor, he becomes a donor and is removed from life support. I don't think he had much of a say in either decision.

This is the kind of slope I think you are moving towards heading down.
Nareed
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July 17th, 2014 at 5:34:01 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

What if instead of a kidney, which a person can give up and still live, someone is willing to 'sell' his heart? Is that ok too?



What if someone wants to give up their heart for free? Does that make it ok?

Quote:

What if the person donating isn't really given a say? The Bob Casey Sr (governor Casey of Pa) comes to mind. The way I understand the story, a poor black kid, 21 was beaten nearly to death on a Sunday afternoon. He lay in a coma for 6 days. The following Friday, Governor Casey was having his tests and prelim procedures done to place him on the transplant list. Wouldn't you know this 21 year old black kid was a match for the governor. On Saturday morning, the Boys mother 'decided' she wanted her son to be an organ donor and several hours later, he was taken off life-support and Governor Casey who magically ascended the list received the boys heart and liver.



Well, thank goodness selling organs is illegal now and things like that couldn't possibly happen.
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rxwine
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July 17th, 2014 at 5:34:29 PM permalink
Quote: Lemieux66

I got into a conversation with a co-worker about this(more like I mentioned it lol). I told her that I would sell my middle toe for 100k. She looked at me like I was crazy, but I know I can do big things with that. Plus it's one middle toe. Nothing that important I think.



Toes can be used as a replacement for fingers so it could be useful to someone.

I don't think we're that far off from generating replacement parts, without borrowing one. I bet it beats a world full of flying cars in development. (because you know, flying cars as the default transportation has been out there forever, and so far the sky is not full of them.)
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djatc
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July 17th, 2014 at 5:38:04 PM permalink
As libertarian as I am about drugs and prostitution, I feel there should be limits as to which body part can be sold, based on the quality of life afterwards. Also, there are millions of people who would probably sell their body parts, realistically do you think you can get $500k for any non-essential body part?

I remember hearing a story about co-workers when I used to work at a hotel saying if they lost their arms to an "accident" at work they would get $5k. Seems like a very low amount of money considering how useful an arm is. As you open up the marketplace for organs people will start to balk at the low amount they would receive for their products.

But then again people pay others to mark up their bodies with tattoos of Chinese characters they can't read anyway....
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Nareed
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July 17th, 2014 at 5:38:49 PM permalink
Re, the slippery slope argument:

How many people die every day? How many of them are suitable organ donors? IF their families could receive money for dontaing their loved ones' organs, do you think the supply of organs for transplants would increase, perhaps to the point where there would even be too many of some organs for some tissue types?

THis is a lot more likely than the argument about perfectly healthy people offering up their vital organs for transplant, or people having their organs taken unwillingly. The latter is reported to happen in places like China and India, where selling organs is illegal. Black markets are not accountable and offer no transparency. Open markets do both.
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rxwine
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July 17th, 2014 at 6:00:36 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Re, the slippery slope argument:

How many people die every day? How many of them are suitable organ donors? IF their families could receive money for dontaing their loved ones' organs, do you think the supply of organs for transplants would increase, perhaps to the point where there would even be too many of some organs for some tissue types?

THis is a lot more likely than the argument about perfectly healthy people offering up their vital organs for transplant, or people having their organs taken unwillingly. The latter is reported to happen in places like China and India, where selling organs is illegal. Black markets are not accountable and offer no transparency. Open markets do both.



Copper is legal, but the price for it has made it a target for theft out of light poles and other places where it is already installed.

Consider how much more valuable an organ would be. So, you would increase the black market, I believe, once you establish the lucrative prices.

But all in all, you don't know for sure until it's tried. I'll give it that.
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Nareed
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July 17th, 2014 at 6:33:18 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Copper is legal, but the price for it has made it a target for theft out of light poles and other places where it is already installed.



Can you think of one thing that is legal to sell which some people won't steal?

Quote:

Consider how much more valuable an organ would be.



It depends. All copper is valuable. Copper taken from a wire is more valuable, since it's already of the quality needed for wires. A kidney taken randomly from soneone may or may not be valuable. If you take it from someone with some kidney disease, it's worthless. If the tissue type doesn't match your recipient(s) it's worthless, too.

The, too, stealing copper is relatively easy and requires little skill. Stealing an organ requires a comparatively alrge capital investment (a sterile operating room, surgical kits, medical supplies, etc), and at elast one skilled surgeon. You can't just open someone up and remove the kidney any which way, nor can you just drop it in ice and rush it to the buyer or broker. If you're going to steal other organs, you need even more supplies and skills as well.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
rxwine
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July 17th, 2014 at 7:09:52 PM permalink
I think at one time copper wasn't on the radar so much for thieve. That's why price is important. Some people will kill you for very little money at all. Happens all the time.

Kidnapping people where you don't need to worry about interacting again for ransom is much more appealing.

You could argue that child enslavement isn't going on in communities for purposes of prostitution (including America), but it is. So, making people disappear anywhere is certainly possible.

But the real concern is elsewhere.

You have more rogue countries where kidnapping for body parts is going to be much easier because of the weak governments. No need to be a pirate and deal with kidnapping foreigners on the open sea when you can exploit your own people for the same reason and much easier (such as how slavery worked).

How many crooked doctors do they indict each year? Enough to be a source of expertise. You won't be able to open someone up and look for a serial number.

They hire an actor to pretend to be the donor in a foreign country and the same family for hundreds of operations over a year.
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onenickelmiracle
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July 17th, 2014 at 7:22:59 PM permalink
If it was legal to directly sell your organs, you would just about get jack since most organs would be coming from poor countries where they'll probably go for $100.
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DJTeddyBear
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July 17th, 2014 at 7:29:12 PM permalink
As I read this, I couldn't get the vision out of my mind, of waking up in a hotel bathtub full of ice . . .
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AxiomOfChoice
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July 17th, 2014 at 7:34:06 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Is is just me or does anybody else not object to the legalized selling of body organs? For example, a billionaire needs a kidney and a destitute janitor with six kids in India is willing to sell him a matching one for half a million dollars. Who is benefiting by prohibiting the transaction?



A agree with you; I have no problems with it. But, that is not the society we live in.
AxiomOfChoice
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July 17th, 2014 at 7:35:05 PM permalink
Quote: Lemieux66

Investments. AP opportunities. Bigger poker bankroll. Probably put a portion into a CD.



None of these are really "big things".

My point is only that $100k isn't really that much. It seems like a lot until you have that much cash lying around; then you realize that it isn't that big of a deal.
AxelWolf
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July 17th, 2014 at 7:39:24 PM permalink
Why not just let prisoners sell off organs? Perhaps we can just purposely breed and farm out a subclass of humans for body parts.

Seriously I think its a bad Idea to let people sell body parts. I can imagine thousands of 18 year old kids selling body parts fresh out of high school. Would you want your son or daughter to do this?

Would you think the same way if your kid came and told you they were going to do this?

I think your view would change quickly, I bet you would say, this should be illegal.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
GWAE
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July 17th, 2014 at 8:07:18 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

If it was legal to directly sell your organs, you would just about get jack since most organs would be coming from poor countries where they'll probably go for $100.


I think import laws would prevent that.
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appistapp1s
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July 17th, 2014 at 8:13:35 PM permalink
we could auction off my left nut.....it could be the next big wizard challenge.
AxelWolf
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July 17th, 2014 at 8:14:24 PM permalink
Quote: appistapp1s

we could auction off my left nut.....it could be the next big wizard challenge.

And leave you with zero?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
soxfan
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July 17th, 2014 at 8:16:42 PM permalink
I think that there will eventually be a willing seller-willing buyer marketplace for organ sales. It is already legal to sell certain things and some women make good cake by selling their eggs to or acting as surrogate mother for infertile couples. And, years ago I was a regular paid "donor" at a sperm bank. As a tall, fit, healthy blue eyed White dude with a grad degree they said my "essence" was in demand so my "donations" were good for about 1000 bucks a week, cash money, regular, hey hey!
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Lemieux66
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July 17th, 2014 at 8:18:04 PM permalink
Quote: soxfan

I think that there will eventually be a willing seller-willing buyer marketplace for organ sales. It is already legal to sell certain things and some women make good cake by selling their eggs to or acting as surrogate mother for infertile couples. And, years ago I was a regular paid "donor" at a sperm bank. As a tall, fit, healthy blue eyed White dude with a grad degree they said my "essence" was in demand so my "donations" were good for about 1000 bucks a week, cash money, regular, hey hey!



Roulette Bankroll!
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
AxelWolf
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July 17th, 2014 at 8:23:22 PM permalink
Quote: soxfan

And, years ago I was a regular paid "donor" at a sperm bank. As a tall, fit, healthy blue eyed White dude with a grad degree they said my "essence" was in demand so my "donations" were good for about 1000 bucks a week, cash money, regular, hey hey!

I don't even know what to say. I'm sure at the time you said, Hhhh ee eey, Heeeeyyyy!!!
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
onenickelmiracle
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July 17th, 2014 at 8:37:44 PM permalink
Quote: soxfan

I think that there will eventually be a willing seller-willing buyer marketplace for organ sales. It is already legal to sell certain things and some women make good cake by selling their eggs to or acting as surrogate mother for infertile couples. And, years ago I was a regular paid "donor" at a sperm bank. As a tall, fit, healthy blue eyed White dude with a grad degree they said my "essence" was in demand so my "donations" were good for about 1000 bucks a week, cash money, regular, hey hey!

Twenty years later, there has to be at least one man in the USA unknowingly sleeping with their daughter giving the $1000 back.
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rudeboyoi
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July 17th, 2014 at 8:38:01 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Why not just let prisoners sell off organs? Perhaps we can just purposely breed and farm out a subclass of humans for body parts.

Seriously I think its a bad Idea to let people sell body parts. I can imagine thousands of 18 year old kids selling body parts fresh out of high school. Would you want your son or daughter to do this?

Would you think the same way if your kid came and told you they were going to do this?

I think your view would change quickly, I bet you would say, this should be illegal.



The person that sold the organ can potentially buy that organ from someone else if he really wants one back.
onenickelmiracle
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July 17th, 2014 at 9:13:37 PM permalink
An unintended consequence might be being forced to sell a spare organ to satisfy debts. You would think not, but things like this tend to become reality with many things these days.
I am a robot.
Nareed
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July 18th, 2014 at 7:39:58 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Why not just let prisoners sell off organs?



Because Larry Niven.
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RS
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July 18th, 2014 at 7:42:00 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

As I read this, I couldn't get the vision out of my mind, of waking up in a hotel bathtub full of ice . . .



This.
Nareed
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July 18th, 2014 at 7:48:51 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I think at one time copper wasn't on the radar so much for thieve. That's why price is important.



Of course.

Quote:

Some people will kill you for very little money at all. Happens all the time.



It's not entirely unusual to find a robbery victim killed when they were carrying under $50 on them. It does happen. Yet ask any robber if he'd try to take that little from someone. Typically they will think their prospect carried more.

Quote:

You could argue that child enslavement isn't going on in communities for purposes of prostitution (including America), but it is. So, making people disappear anywhere is certainly possible.



No single masure on any issue will solve that issue once and for all. If you make drugs legal, you'll still have addicts, junkies and even some drug-related violence (like robbery or theft to pay for drugs). If you make drugs illegal you'll still have addicts, junkies and a large measure of drug-related violence (like gangs fighting for territory).

So making the sale of organs legal will carry some problems. If you think making sales of organs illegal carries no problems, I'd urge you to think again. The question is which set of problems is worse. Maybe you'll have pelple killed for their organs, though that also happens now. maybe you won't. I don't say "let's try and fuck the consequences!" But let's do talk about it and study the matter. Fact is lots of people die due to a shortage of transplant organs. Suppose the families of dead organ donors could sell their loved ones' organs rather than donate them. How would that make things different?
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AlanMendelson
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July 18th, 2014 at 7:56:47 AM permalink
This coming August will mark the sixth year anniversary of my kidney and pancreas transplant. Every day I wake up and thank God and thank the family that donated the organs of their loved one. And several times a day I stop to thank them again -- when I catch myself smiling, or laughing or enjoying something, or hearing good music, or doing my job, or getting a compliment, or eating a good meal. It haunts me -- 24 hours a day. I cry for the young girl who died.

When I was on dialysis my Aunt told me that she would give me a million dollars to find a kidney and buy it from a living donor. I had my own money to use as well. But I wouldn't.

Believe me -- I am well aware of the practice of going to certain countries to "buy" an organ.

The problems with buying an organ are many, and the most important one is simply this: when someone wants to sell an organ they might lie about their own health. Not only could they endanger their own life, but they can certainly endanger the life of the organ recipient.

In this country there is a government-sponsored program to promote live organ donations. Uncle Sam picks up all the medical costs for living donors, and in the case of kidney, should the donor ever need a kidney transplant in the future because their remaining kidney goes bad -- they immediately go to the top of the waiting list nationwide. In practical terms this means a transplant in two weeks or less.

Several people offered me a kidney including my brother in law, my son, and even my casino host. I didn't want it. And I didn't want a cadaver kidney either -- because that meant someone died. All I wanted was a way for the doctors to find a way to help preserve my own kidneys.

For more than 15 years I knew my kidneys were failing from diabetes and I tried everything to preserve them for as long as possible. I even went on a strict vegetarian diet. But I couldn't stop the progress of the kidney disease.

I got a phone call that a kidney and a pancreas were available from an auto accident victim while my brother in law was going thru the pre-donation tests.

Some people say I am especially lucky that I not only received a kidney, but I also received a pancreas -- and as a result I am no longer a diabetic. It was two miracles in one operation.

But every day I cry. Beleive me, every day I cry.
skrbornevrymin
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July 18th, 2014 at 5:54:28 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

This coming August will mark the sixth year anniversary of my kidney and pancreas transplant. Every day I wake up and thank God and thank the family that donated the organs of their loved one. And several times a day I stop to thank them again -- when I catch myself smiling, or laughing or enjoying something, or hearing good music, or doing my job, or getting a compliment, or eating a good meal. It haunts me -- 24 hours a day. I cry for the young girl who died.

When I was on dialysis my Aunt told me that she would give me a million dollars to find a kidney and buy it from a living donor. I had my own money to use as well. But I wouldn't.

Believe me -- I am well aware of the practice of going to certain countries to "buy" an organ.

The problems with buying an organ are many, and the most important one is simply this: when someone wants to sell an organ they might lie about their own health. Not only could they endanger their own life, but they can certainly endanger the life of the organ recipient.

In this country there is a government-sponsored program to promote live organ donations. Uncle Sam picks up all the medical costs for living donors, and in the case of kidney, should the donor ever need a kidney transplant in the future because their remaining kidney goes bad -- they immediately go to the top of the waiting list nationwide. In practical terms this means a transplant in two weeks or less.

Several people offered me a kidney including my brother in law, my son, and even my casino host. I didn't want it. And I didn't want a cadaver kidney either -- because that meant someone died. All I wanted was a way for the doctors to find a way to help preserve my own kidneys.

For more than 15 years I knew my kidneys were failing from diabetes and I tried everything to preserve them for as long as possible. I even went on a strict vegetarian diet. But I couldn't stop the progress of the kidney disease.

I got a phone call that a kidney and a pancreas were available from an auto accident victim while my brother in law was going thru the pre-donation tests.

Some people say I am especially lucky that I not only received a kidney, but I also received a pancreas -- and as a result I am no longer a diabetic. It was two miracles in one operation.

But every day I cry. Beleive me, every day I cry.



Why cry? She would have died anyway. At least, in this case, something good happened and the tragic loss was not a total loss.
MrV
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July 18th, 2014 at 9:17:51 PM permalink
My son in law is on a waiting list for lung transplants.

They chartered a sailboat in the Caribbean, and he inhaled a bunch of toxic mold while inspecting the clogged AC system.

This quickly caused interstitial lung disease.

You never know.
"What, me worry?"
SOOPOO
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July 19th, 2014 at 5:04:06 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

This coming August will mark the sixth year anniversary of my kidney and pancreas transplant.
.



I love hearing from people like you..... When I'm up all night taking care of a recipient in the OR, it's your stories that keep me going....
FleaStiff
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July 19th, 2014 at 8:18:04 AM permalink
No one cares what you might sell your body parts for... they only care what you would PAY for a body part.

Body parts are like child pornography or child sex ... there are enough countries where it is rampant, sometimes not even criminal, endless supply of victims and all endlessly cheap to obtain.

Nobody cares about buying your liver, but if you need a liver its how much would you pay for a perfect match?
rxwine
rxwine
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July 19th, 2014 at 11:33:36 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

So making the sale of organs legal will carry some problems. If you think making sales of organs illegal carries no problems, I'd urge you to think again. The question is which set of problems is worse. Maybe you'll have pelple killed for their organs, though that also happens now. maybe you won't. I don't say "let's try and fuck the consequences!" But let's do talk about it and study the matter. Fact is lots of people die due to a shortage of transplant organs. Suppose the families of dead organ donors could sell their loved ones' organs rather than donate them. How would that make things different?



I guess I'm thinking of the dangers of people as such a direct commodity. If you walk out of a casino in Vegas no one usually knows for sure if you're carrying a lot of money. (some people are, some people aren't) But essentially what if you always start looking like cash? Like one of the old cartoons of 3 people adrift in a lifeboat. After awhile each of them starts looking like a chicken dinner to the others. You don't want to be walking around looking like someone's next chicken dinner all the time.

You start turning people into commodities for their parts.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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July 20th, 2014 at 1:50:50 AM permalink
A better question might be: how much taxpayer money should be used to "grow" replacement body parts? We are on the verge of having that science.
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