cclub79
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May 23rd, 2010 at 9:07:45 PM permalink
Wizard...

I know The Office and LOST are your programs of choice, and I was wondering what you thought of the finale. But if you are in LV, I guess it just started there, so we'll have to wait for your take later...With all of the quibbling over the past few weeks about all of the unanswered questions (I was among those complaining), the story finished with such a rush of emotion I don't think it disappointed anyone.
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May 24th, 2010 at 7:58:03 AM permalink
Maybe I need more time to process it, or read the Cliff notes, but I'm feeling disappointed the day after. The biggest questions remain unanswered, at least to me. Maybe some people like stories where you have to imagine your own ending, but I don't. Lost can be filed with other movies/shows that left me unsatisfied, like the Sopranos, Total Recall, 2001, Contact, and Limbo.

At this point I'm going to read some other viewer comments to help make sense of it, and shall return here with hopefully a better response to your question. If you are not disappointed then I assume you have some sense of closure. Please tell me what your thoughts are.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
scotty81
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May 24th, 2010 at 9:17:15 AM permalink
I was very disappointed.

The ending made no sense in the context of the final hour. OK. We saw how Jack died. But, what about Hurley, Sawyer, Kate & Claire? They didn't die. What happened to them? The implication was that everyone in the Church was dead. The mystery of the Island still goes unsolved.

If I had to make a guess, I'd say the "logical" answer is that everyone died in the original crash, and the Island represented a kind of Purgatory. Those who landed up on the Island where somehow linked spiritually and were given the opportunity to redeem/recreate themselves before going on to their final ?????.

But, even this begs a few questions: What was the whole thing with Jacob & (zombie)Locke? Who was Desmond (he wasn't on the plane)? What was the purpose of the "others"? Why wasn't everyone back in the Church (Walt & his dad)? What ever happened to Whitmore?

The fundamental question of what really happened to the Oceanic flight, and the ultimate purpose of the Island, was never ansered directly and left to our imaginations. The final scene of the plane wreckage gives some creedence to the "everyone on board died" scenario.

I also thought the shmaltzy, feel-good, fuzzy-warm style of the eposide was out of character. There was no edge to the episode. I would have much preferred an ending along the following lines:

1) Everyone eventually screws up and dies a unique, if not horrible death.
2) After the last person dies (Hurley?), the sceen switches to Jacob & his brother (forget his name). It is then made clear that they are the equivalent to God & Devil and are crafing games to test Good & Evil. The Island is their personal playground. A real place, but one with suspended reality at their whim according to the rules of their current game.
3) Jacob concedes that he lost this round. Everybody died. They discuss the rules, what went right & wrong, and agree to another game with new rules.
4) The scene then shifts back to the original Oceanic Flight. The final scene is them encountering turbulence.

I hope the seried ending finale of 24 is better than this.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr
odiousgambit
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May 24th, 2010 at 9:33:11 AM permalink
Quote: scotty81

I was very disappointed.

The ending made no sense in the context of the final hour. OK. We saw how Jack died. But, what about Hurley, Sawyer, Kate & Claire? They didn't die. What happened to them? The implication was that everyone in the Church was dead. The mystery of the Island still goes unsolved.

If I had to make a guess, I'd say the "logical" answer is that everyone died in the original crash, and the Island represented a kind of Purgatory. Those who landed up on the Island where somehow linked spiritually and were given the opportunity to redeem/recreate themselves before going on to their final ?????.

But, even this begs a few questions: What was the whole thing with Jacob & (zombie)Locke? Who was Desmond (he wasn't on the plane)? What was the purpose of the "others"? Why wasn't everyone back in the Church (Walt & his dad)? What ever happened to Whitmore?

The fundamental question of what really happened to the Oceanic flight, and the ultimate purpose of the Island, was never ansered directly and left to our imaginations. The final scene of the plane wreckage gives some creedence to the "everyone on board died" scenario.

I also thought the shmaltzy, feel-good, fuzzy-warm style of the eposide was out of character. There was no edge to the episode. I would have much preferred an ending along the following lines:

1) Everyone eventually screws up and dies a unique, if not horrible death.
2) After the last person dies (Hurley?), the sceen switches to Jacob & his brother (forget his name). It is then made clear that they are the equivalent to God & Devil and are crafing games to test Good & Evil. The Island is their personal playground. A real place, but one with suspended reality at their whim according to the rules of their current game.
3) Jacob concedes that he lost this round. Everybody died. They discuss the rules, what went right & wrong, and agree to another game with new rules.
4) The scene then shifts back to the original Oceanic Flight. The final scene is them encountering turbulence.

I hope the seried ending finale of 24 is better than this.



Sounds like you are a Rod Serling fan!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Wizard
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May 24th, 2010 at 10:10:52 AM permalink
Quote: scotty81

The fundamental question of what really happened to the Oceanic flight, and the ultimate purpose of the Island, was never ansered directly and left to our imaginations. The final scene of the plane wreckage gives some creedence to the "everyone on board died" scenario.



The theory that everyone died in the original crash does make a lot of sense. Perhaps Richard was right when he said that "we're in hell" earlier this season. Comparisons to the Sixth Sense come to my mind. Those who appeared to survive the crash were those who were not ready to die, exactly like the Sixth Sense. The movie Ghost, as well. The scene in the church could be compared to the cold breath scene in Sixth Sense.

The whole body of the show could be compared to Total Recall, an adventure, where the plot is not the important thing, but where the journey takes you on a personal level. That could beg some questions about why some characters did die on the island, or why characters like Rose and Bernard, were there in the first place.

We're still left with a lot of questions. Like what happened to the Hurley, Ben, and the Island itself. Perhaps as the next Jacob, Hurley would be the puppet master creating afterlife adventures for others. The island itself sounds a bit like the purgatory concept in Catholicism, which I don't know very well, but as I understand it, Purgatory is a place between earth and heaven where you do time to get ready heaven. Any Catholics here who can shed some light?

Any comments? Let's keep it going!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
pacomartin
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May 24th, 2010 at 11:00:38 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Purgatory is a place between earth and heaven where you do time to get ready heaven. Any Catholics here who can shed some light?



Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven. There is no chance of going from Purgatory to hell, but you may have to wait there a long time to get into Heaven.

Limbo is a a circle of hell reserved for unbaptized infants and for virtuous pagans of classical history and mythology. It is not a place of torment, but neither is it a place of joy. Limbo is a permanent destination, you can neither ascend to purgatory or descend into hell.

A place where a review of your life and where a decision is made as to whether you go to heaven or hell is not part of classical theology. It seems to be a relatively modern concept, which is often used as a plot device for comedies,

Writers seem loathe to tie up all their plot lines with any series finale.
Ericayne
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May 24th, 2010 at 11:02:42 AM permalink
In my humble opinion....
I think it is virtually impossible for a series finale of this scope to satisfy everyone. It ain't gonna happen. There are those who would have liked the ending be explained to them. There are those who prefer to be allowed to come up with their own conclusions. And then there's "Lost," who was able to straddle the delicate line between the two camps amazingly well for 6 years! I am actually surprised that some of you were expecting J.J. Abrams & Jeffrey Leiber to answer everything about the series in this finale - when they've been doing the exact opposite for the last 6 years. I also have mixed feelings about the ending. Nevertheless, I am totally satisfied with the series as a whole. There simply wasn't another show like this and probably never will be.

I'm just happy that it's over.......if you go out on top, you stay on top forever..
cclub79
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May 24th, 2010 at 3:42:58 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The theory that everyone died in the original crash does make a lot of sense. Perhaps Richard was right when he said that "we're in hell" earlier this season. Comparisons to the Sixth Sense come to my mind. Those who appeared to survive the crash were those who were not ready to die, exactly like the Sixth Sense. The movie Ghost, as well. The scene in the church could be compared to the cold breath scene in Sixth Sense.

The whole body of the show could be compared to Total Recall, an adventure, where the plot is not the important thing, but where the journey takes you on a personal level. That could beg some questions about why some characters did die on the island, or why characters like Rose and Bernard, were there in the first place.

We're still left with a lot of questions. Like what happened to the Hurley, Ben, and the Island itself. Perhaps as the next Jacob, Hurley would be the puppet master creating afterlife adventures for others. The island itself sounds a bit like the purgatory concept in Catholicism, which I don't know very well, but as I understand it, Purgatory is a place between earth and heaven where you do time to get ready heaven. Any Catholics here who can shed some light?

Any comments? Let's keep it going!



I am 100% behind the idea that everything on the island DID occur in real life. Mostly because Jack's father said so in the final 15 minutes of the program. "It was real." Yes, they like to have characters lie, but not in the epic final moments of a program. I was satisfied with not knowing how all of the others (Eventually) die, because I don't usually think about how people are going to die, say, at the end of any show or movie. They will die at some time, and come to the church. They escaped and survived, that's what was important. I was very happy with Frank not dying in the sub and piloting the plane off the island, and Jack seeing that his friends escaped in his final moments. Again, I have a lot of issues, as the writers painted themselves into quite a corner. For me, I was disappointed several weeks ago, and that's when I felt I wasn't going to get anything out of the rest of the series. I was happy to have something last night.
Wizard
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May 25th, 2010 at 4:25:04 AM permalink
Quote: scotty81

The final scene of the plane wreckage gives some creedence to the "everyone on board died" scenario.



Upon a second or third viewing of the last minutes I noticed footprints in the final wreckage scene, which I think argues against that theory.


Quote: cclub79


I am 100% behind the idea that everything on the island DID occur in real life. Mostly because Jack's father said so in the final 15 minutes of the program. "It was real." Yes, they like to have characters lie, but not in the epic final moments of a program.



Good point. Maybe I'm over-thinking it, but to argue against that, in the final moment in the church they open the door and there is a lot of light. While that is a literary device in lots of shows for the afterlife, there was also the same kind of bright light in the cave, especially when Desmond pulled the plug out. One might argue that the whole island was at the doorstop to heaven, or whatever you want to call it.

On another topic, one fault I have with the show in the first season is the what I'll call the Love Boat syndrome. There must have been about 50 survivors on the plane, but only about ten of them ever spoke or did anything of significance. Much like on the Love Boat it seemed like four people ran the whole ship. Furthermore, what happened to all these people in the later seasons? You could say some joined up with the Others, but why didn't anyone ever ask, "What happened to everybody else?"

Finally, if you haven't already, check out these alternate endings.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
cclub79
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May 25th, 2010 at 5:14:08 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Upon a second or third viewing of the last minutes I noticed footprints in the final wreckage scene, which I think argues against that theory.




Good point. Maybe I'm over-thinking it, but to argue against that, in the final moment in the church they open the door and there is a lot of light. While that is a literary device in lots of shows for the afterlife, there was also the same kind of bright light in the cave, especially when Desmond pulled the plug out. One might argue that the whole island was at the doorstop to heaven, or whatever you want to call it.

On another topic, one fault I have with the show in the first season is the what I'll call the Love Boat syndrome. There must have been about 50 survivors on the plane, but only about ten of them ever spoke or did anything of significance. Much like on the Love Boat it seemed like four people ran the whole ship. Furthermore, what happened to all these people in the later seasons? You could say some joined up with the Others, but why didn't anyone ever ask, "What happened to everybody else?"

Finally, if you haven't already, check out these alternate endings.




Someone did track all of the 42? survivors from the pilot. The herd was thinned along the way, and I believe the final few were the survivors of the flaming arrow attack, which took out all but the last group. Prior to that, Keamy and the boat people killed a few when they attacked New Otherton. They actually mapped it out to the person, and everyone was accounted for. If only they used that kind of detail for their other mysteries!
Wizard
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May 25th, 2010 at 7:55:37 AM permalink
Quote: cclub79


Someone did track all of the 42? survivors from the pilot...



I didn't know that. Agreed, that person should have been on consultant to the writers.

Let me go on record as saying that I would not be surprised to see more of Lost. It may be a period of time like that between the Star Wars III and IV, but there is still plenty more that could be done. The show could focus on what Hurley and Ben do with the Island, and/or a prequel, picking with who was that woman who killed Jacob's mother.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
slyther
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May 25th, 2010 at 2:38:27 PM permalink
I'm with Cclub79:

The island indeed was 'real', and we were being shown the 'flash sideways' which were really 'flash way-forwards' (though time does not matter in that realm- it could have been hundreds of years forward for all we know) out of sequence. Eventually everyone dies and makes it to the church. Ben doesn't go in the church because he still has ammends to make. Note that there were various religious symbols in the church's stained glass window.

The other plane crash survivors and folks like Lipidus didn't show up to the church because they weren't central to our character's lives...or maybe they didn't have the 'troubled past requiring redemption' that our characters had.

I don't know if we could handle a Lost 2 with Hurley and Ben in charge. Seems like it would pale in comparison and people would just be left frustrated with lack of answers to the original show, and no doubt, new questions.

I checked the 'Lost is a Game' site today and that author still insists that he/she is right about Lost being a video game (ala Sims) where we are viewing it from the inside (ala Tron). It's quite an elaborate theroy.
cclub79
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May 25th, 2010 at 4:32:32 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I didn't know that. Agreed, that person should have been on consultant to the writers.

Let me go on record as saying that I would not be surprised to see more of Lost. It may be a period of time like that between the Star Wars III and IV, but there is still plenty more that could be done. The show could focus on what Hurley and Ben do with the Island, and/or a prequel, picking with who was that woman who killed Jacob's mother.



This show had more hard core fans than anything in recent memory. The writers openly admitted going to message boards to fine-tune certain plot details and throw a bone to them. The same practice is happening with the show "Fringe" (a good Lost replacement if you are looking for one): Message boards referred to a certain character repeatedly as "Walternate" (alternate Walter) for almost a year prior to his actual appearance. When he has appeared, characters on the show, including Leonard Nimoy, have casually referred to him as "Walternate". So don't underestimate who may be reading if you post on those hard-core fan boards....

Anyway, here's the body count:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Body_count

There were only about 10 of 72 that we didn't actually SEE live or die, which is pretty good considering the scatter after the Flaming Arrow attack. My guess is those extras died trying to get to the creek where Sawyer said to meet up, since the Others basically told him that he was stupid for yelling the destination out so they knew where to go to kill them.
odiousgambit
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August 29th, 2010 at 6:23:43 AM permalink
the idea that they were all killed in the crash is definitely gaining momentum, to the point that people are assuming everyone agrees.

Not even dreaming of watching it till discussed here, I guess I will reluctantly have to think about buying a dvd of season one, although the discussion has been a spoiler [?] You guys will be in trouble for getting me interested if I don't like it [vbg]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
cclub79
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August 29th, 2010 at 7:10:47 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

the idea that they were all killed in the crash is definitely gaining momentum, to the point that people are assuming everyone agrees.

Not even dreaming of watching it till discussed here, I guess I will reluctantly have to think about buying a dvd of season one, although the discussion has been a spoiler [?] You guys will be in trouble for getting me interested if I don't like it [vbg]



Something that makes no sense if they all died in the crash. In Jack's "purgatory", they never crashed. The plane just kept going and landed in LA. So he was on a plane that crashed on an island, killing him. When he dies from that crash, he wakes up on the plane and it lands in LA. So where did his island memories come from? If you say he wakes up from dying in the crash on the island (when he opens his eye), then at what point does he go back to the plane? It's way too convoluted, even for LOST. And in purgatory, the same things happen as happen on Earth? (GWBush gets elected President of Purgatory USA? The Red Sox win the Purgatory world series?) For me, that scene with Ben where he shows Jack the clip of the World Series was one of the most pivotal moments of the show. It was the first time that we REALLY REALLY saw the existence of the REAL WORLD. It couldn't have been an accident by the writers (they probably had to pay a lot to get ACTUAL World Series footage from another network and keep the rights to it for the DVD), but that's when I decided that they were alive on the island. Plus what of all the people on the island who weren't from the crash?

The other thing is, if they died in the crash, then Sayid would never have met Shannon in real life. So we can meet people in purgatory that we never met in life, and then use them when we are double-killed out of purgatory to find all of our old friends to get out of purgatory? I can deal with the fact that Keamy was shot and killed in purgatory (maybe it wasn't really him, just Sayid's mind), but I have a hard time believing ALL of the people killed throughout the series on the island were being "double-killed". Take Juliet. When she's dying on the island, she's already GOING INTO purgatory ("It worked" re: the candy bar; "We'll go dutch"). Would that make sense if she was already dead on the island going into ANOTHER purgatory?

And the ultimate reason is I think it cheapens the story too much to think all the characters who we invested ourselves in for six years were already dead, and the emotional scenes of their lives and deaths we experienced were basically not very important. I think it might be different if I just got the DVDs and burned through the show in a month...but having to wait a week, a month, or even 7 months between episodes makes you think about it a lot.

Sorry for the length of the post!
Nareed
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August 29th, 2010 at 7:44:47 AM permalink
Funny but what I said to the Rock & Roll Dice dealer at Wynn applies to this show: "Had I not read about this on the Wizard's site, I'd have been sure it was some kind of hoax."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
EvenBob
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August 29th, 2010 at 8:35:30 AM permalink
The show never made any sense, why should the ending? I thought the last ep was wonderful.

I remember when they renewed it for a 2nd season, on News Update on SNL with Jimmy Fallon, he said the writers reaction to the news was 'NOOOOOOOOOO!'. That pretty much summed up the whole series. Much of it was pure nonsense, but it was great fun, Hawaii was beautiful, it was harmless and it made us think. What a concept for a TV show, it was the dime novel reinvented for a new audience. "Dime novel is generally used as a pejorative to describe a sensationalized yet superficial piece of written work." That pretty much describes 'Lost'. The actor who played Ben Linus says he was originally signed to do 3 episodes and be killed off, but the fan mail about him was so overwhelming that they let him live and he became a pivotal character in the series. Our first mistake is believing the writers knew what was going on. They didn't know any more than we did, it was a constant work in progress.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Wizard
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August 29th, 2010 at 11:52:51 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

...They didn't know any more than we did, it was a constant work in progress.



I agree with that. The first three seasons I thought were outstanding. However, after that, the show was exhausting to watch, going back and forth in time constantly. Whenever the show was on I was quite the ass about prohibiting anybody from making any noise in the house, because if you missed just one minute, you could become lost.

I honestly believe that seasons 4 to 6 the writers were flying by the seat of their pants. The ambiguous finale may have been deliberate, to deflect criticism from what I think was mediocre writing towards the end. I gave Lost my time and devotion on almost a religious scale, and can't help but feel disrespected and disappointed after the finale. After Lost and the very difficult to follow Inception, I'm ready for a story that is easy to sink your teeth into and not a chore to figure out. Something like Grand Torino.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
EvenBob
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August 29th, 2010 at 2:15:39 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I gave Lost my time and devotion on almost a religious scale, and can't help but feel disrespected and disappointed after the finale.



I gave up on figuring it out after season 4. I just watched to see what would happen. I always waited till 4 ep's had aired, then watched a marathon session on ABC.COM, it was easier to follow if there wasn't a week (or 2) between episodes. I liked the ending because all I cared about was the characters anyway, and they couldn't have possibly cleared up the 100's of loose ends without creating 100's more.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
pacomartin
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October 24th, 2011 at 10:48:35 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

After Lost and the very difficult to follow Inception, I'm ready for a story that is easy to sink your teeth into and not a chore to figure out.



Two of the writers from Lost have premiered their new series on ABC called Once Upon a Time.

Without revealing the answer, their are 5 explicit references to Lost which dedicated fans will spot. They are also fairly easy to google, if you have no patience. I was surprised at how high the production values were for the pilot.

The Pilot is very imaginative. Characters include Snow White, Prince Charming, Cinderella, Rumpelstilskin, Geppetto & Pinocchio, the Magic Mirror, Evil Queen, Jiminy Cricket, Blue Fairy, and three or four characters who you can't identify yet.

The writers promise to make this more of a character driven TV series, without the plot complexities of Lost.

While not one of the darker fairy tales which have become more popular, the pilot was actually much more dramatic then I expected.
FleaStiff
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October 24th, 2011 at 10:55:37 PM permalink
Sorry folks, but I don't know how anyone could assume someone was lost if an entire camera crew was following them and televising the incident, so I just never watched the show at all.
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