NYPD police
First some background. We live in NYC. I am white. My children are mixed black (they just refer to themselves as black so I guess that's telling right there)
At 45 years of age, I have been stopped twice by police on the street randomly.
In their twenties, both of my children have been stopped over fifteen times already.
One time was right in front of me. I was on the phone while they waited patiently for me. An officer came up and asked them to move to the wall of a store so he could check their ID. I asked what the matter was and the officer said it was none of my business. I pointed out they were my children and he suddenly changed, question-stated, "Oh, they're with you?! Okay" and then walked on.
Anyway, my daughter has been stopped and frisked with no provocation in her own neighborhood three times and she took them to court. She already won the first lawsuit. The other two are still pending.
So, she is out partying with her boyfriend in another part of the city and he gets really soused. He's making a commotion, knocking over garbage cans and screaming in the street. These cops come over and ask him to politely replace the garbage can the way he found it, and then they put him and her into a cab to go home. She tells the driver where she lives and the cop says to her, "Oh, you live there? You're lucky you got us tonight!"
Hmm, pretty telling when even the officers know a precinct is terrible.
We need good cops. This isn't an anti-cop rant. BUT, we cannot tolerate bad cops either.
Quote: darkozSomething interesting happened to my daughter and I thought I would relay it here.
First some background. We live in NYC. I am white. My children are mixed black (they just refer to themselves as black so I guess that's telling right there)
...
Hmm, pretty telling when even the officers know a precinct is terrible.
We need good cops. This isn't an anti-cop rant. BUT, we cannot tolerate bad cops either.
I don't pursue civil rights lawsuits involving police actions as it's a specialty area of practice to be sure. I do handle job discrimination cases of all types. As a result, I've encountered plenty of situations just like this that arise in workplaces.
Guilty of being black in America is, unfortunately, alive and well. And I'm not sure but that electing a President of color hasn't lead many folks even further down the wrong road on this issue.
My then-wife worked late as a caterer, I left the apartment to pick her up at the station and walk her home. As I left the front of my apartment building, 2AM Tuesday night kind of thing, wearing jeans and running shoes. Cops frisked me, claiming "we had a report of a burglary/man-on-the-roof" for this building..." Bullshit, ...but I had nothing to hide, I was frisked and shown them my ID. No claims of racism or oppression, just cops who check out situations. I went on my way. I'm white and middle class, and I had "Fit the Description." Had military ID, a New York CITY firearms permit, keys that opened the lobby door (which I had to demonstrate). Cops said "fine, pleasant evening Sir, go on your way." I would not have been surprised if they had video-taped it to show that whites also get stopped and frisked without much ado.
Edit: A few years after that I left for Vegas. NEVER looked back.
Quote: PaigowdanNew York City, and it's NYPD has a "Stop And Frisk" Police allowance or right, where they can stop and frisk any citizen for cause based on "Professional determination as an on-duty Police officer on patrol."
Has this ever been challenged in a federal court?
(BTW, I accidentally flagged your other post in thread. Sorry about that; it was a mis-click, in case the mods are reading. I assume that a lot of flags are required for anything to happen so I doubt it matters)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceHas this ever been challenged in a federal court?
(BTW, I accidentally flagged your other post in thread. Sorry about that; it was a mis-click, in case the mods are reading. I assume that a lot of flags are required for anything to happen so I doubt it matters)
It has. A court ruled it unconstitutional, but on appeal that verdict was voided because the judge was impartial. It's still going through another appeal though.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceHas this ever been challenged in a federal court?
(BTW, I accidentally flagged your other post in thread. Sorry about that; it was a mis-click, in case the mods are reading. I assume that a lot of flags are required for anything to happen so I doubt it matters)
yes indeed, and at the local municipal level, too, constant bitching and cries of racism. I think the policy may have just been rescinded, not certain. check www.NY1.com news, for New York City local news. ALWAYS complaints about it.
Quote: geoffIt has. A court ruled it unconstitutional, but on appeal that verdict was voided because the judge was impartial. It's still going through another appeal though.
Stop and frisk saved NYC. It got firearms off the streets and helped saved lives. The fact is most of the weapons they find are in bad neighborhoods so since mostly minorities live there the math says you need to frisk.
Quote: Lemieux66Stop and frisk saved NYC. It got firearms off the streets and helped saved lives. The fact is most of the weapons they find are in bad neighborhoods so since mostly minorities live there the math says you need to frisk.
I know. It worked. Even the threat of getting caught with a piece or a stash-to-sell made crooks disciplined and discreet, if not out-of-business. And don't **** with the hard working tax payers paying your dole and incarceration costs.
New York City is a mish-mash of Gentry and savages living cheek to cheek, there has got to be some ground rules of street civility for this to work.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/31/nyregion/de-blasio-stop-and-frisk.html?_r=0
Quote: midwestgbIt appears the new Mayor has decided to drop the City's appeal and recognize the rights of minorities to be free from the inherent biases demonstrated in the NYPD's administration of the Stop and Frisk policy:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/31/nyregion/de-blasio-stop-and-frisk.html?_r=0
I miss Mike Bloomberg. Rights of minorities? If you're clean, you're clean, if you're not, you're not and busted, - and that is not a color thing. It's carry a gun or some dope to sell kind of thing that dragged a great city down.
Make it racial, just to play the race card when offended, - I say not. It still works in this day and age.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI am not particularly swayed by the racial argument. I think that people have the right to not be searched without probable cause. This policy is unconstitutional even if it is applied in a racially-neutral way. Getting rid of racial profiling does not fix the problem.
Then you would have a tough time at the airport. They even check your shoes. And no, it ain't racial, it works. So Fly El Al for safety, there's no apologies from the Mossad. It's about safety with savages who are trying to take us hard-working people down in our midst, if we so much as have cash or a good watch. Our lives mean nothing to many, but our wallets do.
Quote: PaigowdanThen you would have a tough time at the airport.
When I go to the airport I am consenting to being searched. I do not have a constitutional right to fly. I am giving no such consent when I walk down the street in new york, and I DO have a constitutional right to do that.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhen I go to the airport I am consenting to being searched. I do not have a constitutional right to fly. I am giving no such consent when I walk down the street in new york, and I DO have a constitutional right to do that.
Especially if your carrying or have something to hide.
Thank God so many states legalized grass.
Quote: PaigowdanEspecially if your carrying or have something to hide.
I would absolutely never consent to being searched by police whether I had anything to hide or not.
Cops look for things that are "out of place" so alot does depend on race and neighborhood.
You've all heard of Driving While Black or Walking While Black. And merchants looking out for shoplifters tend to focus on black youths the most. You can throw the word statistics around all you want, but if you watch the Blacks the most, of course you catch alot of black shoplifters.
Polie focus: One of the best examples I can give you is that of a young black man who drove a Rolls Royce. He got stopped ALL the time. Even when he was alone. Add in his white girl friend and they would actually allow more time to get anywhere when they planned a trip.
Is it wrong? Well, the cops don't think so. And they react more to the challenge to their authority than to the actual facts. Even on a slow day, if they stop someone.... thats it.
Stop and Frisk? Heck, in the sixties it was "Dropsy"... The suspect "dropped" what appeared to be a bindle of drugs as I approached him, so that attempt by him to dispose of evidence gave me probable cause to make the arrest. And no matter how heavily trafficked the area was, the cop could go back and find the object and recognize that particular item as the one he had observed being dropped. Did judges swallow it. They sure did... all the time. Were they fools? No. Just felt it was "okay". Knew it wasn't legal or anything, but that is not really the issue.
Some university professor once did a study with bumper stickers and drivers. Life time of no tickets, ended when a Black Panther bumber sticker went on some cars. This was back in the sixties though.
The UK institued stop and frisk, I believe, as their minority problems grew. So too did they add fire arms for routine patrol. It used to be in the UK that issuing firearms to the police was an exceptional situation and even that too would mean issuing pistols to the seargeants and leaded canes to the constables. No longer.
Quote: FleaStiffI think this thread is grist for the DT site.
You're right - let's cap it now.
It's 100% pure DT fodder, - not a damn thing related to gambling or gambling juice, math, or game design.
Flea, best post on this thread. 'nuff said.
Edit:
Quote: Ax of Choicewould absolutely never consent to being searched by police whether I had anything to hide or not.
You may have to rethink this.
The best way to off a cop is to show him that your clean in good faith, and to get on with your life, because no reason to get smart ass. Cops can be dicks when pressed. Hospital stays and ACLU involvement is nothing but trouble for your life when trying to prove a pointless point.
consider it a back-off left well enough alone.
Fine day indeed, Sir. Have a pleasant evening, and good night, sir...
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI would absolutely never consent to being searched by police whether I had anything to hide or not.
Very Fine, I can and do see this.
But if I am clean, I see absolutely no point in begging any altercation with cops.
If I have an issue or regret, as an after-effect of the pullover, I'd have my attorney file a complaint with the local office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the state's Internal affairs, if it needed to go that far.
Getting justice is NOT about getting yourself arguing or beaten down by cops who routinely see and respond to life-or-death situations with unknown people, or to be beaten to prove a point of some "My Constitutional Rights Fantasy," - it's about showing the cops you're really clean, and going home alive and fine with them, - if not friends with the cops in the end, - and having your lawyers, the ACLU, and reporters from the Los Angeles times do the dirty clean-up work with a good, documented, and winnable case from your lawyer's office if there WERE a problem not of your manufacture.
This is a lot better than your blood on the ground like Rodney King.
If you have a case of police malfeasance, then have your lawyer present the evidence to the ACLU and the DOJ. If there is NO blood on the ground from the police breaking your jaw, and the police let you go because you DIDN'T look for trouble, but followed police directives at a stop and got away fine, then there might be no police abuse charges. Take notes and DO NOT SEEK altercations.
I've seen a thousands civilian beat downs on youtube where a simple "stop and investigate" turned into a beat-down because some civilian dick was actively giving the cops a hard time "just to prove my rights!"
You get pulled over by angry cops, comply to their requests without acting like you've got something to prove.
Cops appreciate a civilian with civility.
LIVE to present your evidence and file your charges later, shit. And if you comply without argument or seeking confrontation, you might find that some cops are just trying to do their jobs on a rough day in a really rough job.
Quote: PaigowdanYou get pulled over by angry cops, comply to their requests without acting like you've got something to prove.
So, if you get pulled over, and the cops ask if they can search your car, you will say yes? Not smart...
Quote: rudeboyoiNot surprised that Dan once again has the wrong mindset. No one should have any more power over another. That is not freedom.
No, I never said that. You said that, not me, let's be clear and smart. You DO have the power, - just be smart about effecting it. I said:
1. Get out alive, and without a beat-down, being the smart SOB that of course you are.
2. If you have a complaint, document it and have your lawyer file it. Use the news media to present your case - BEST dissemination for this.
3. And...get on with your good life.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSo, if you get pulled over, and the cops ask if they can search your car, you will say yes? Not smart...
Yes smart. What are they going to bust me for? Possession of a spare tire or golf equipment in my car's trunk? I'll bet he desk sergeant would approve. I make it a point to give my attorneys nothing they can't approve or substantiate.
The only things you'll see in my car's trunk in luggage, a spare tire, or golf clubs, or home supplies from Lowe's.
Finding satchels of drugs or dead bodies in the trunk of the car I leave for the rest of this God-forsaken forum.
How it happened was she was pulled over while driving. The officer insisted she get out and that he search her car for suspicion of drugs. She refused.
She took her cellphone out and began taking video of the incident. The officer told her she could not do that on camera. She told him she had a right to do that as she was not consenting to her car being searched.
The officer snatched the phone from her and went to delete her video but first threw her up against the car so he could "control" the situation. What he didn't know was that she had her phone set to a ten second passcode, so if there was no action on her phone in ten seconds you needed a code to get back in.
The officer tried to delete the video and could not get the phone access but the video was still running.
Her car was searched by the officer. Nothing was found and she was allowed to leave without even a ticket In Other Words, there was no reason for the pull over stop in the first place. No broken tail light or anything.
As I said, she found a lawyer and won a settlement. Wasn't huge after attorneys fees but she won.
What would you say to a search if you were carrying a large amount of cash. Or even 5k for that matter.Quote: PaigowdanYes smart. What are they going to bust me for? Possession of a spare tire or golf equipment in my car's trunk? I'll bet he desk sergeant would approve. I make it a point to give my attorneys nothing they can't approve or substantiate.
The only things you'll see in my car's trunk in luggage, a spare tire, or golf clubs, or home supplies from Lowe's.
Finding satchels of drugs or dead bodies in the trunk of the car I leave for the rest of this God-forsaken forum.
Quote: darkozAs I said, my daughter won her first lawsuit against the cops.
How it happened was she was pulled over while driving. The officer insisted she get out and that he search her car for suspicion of drugs. She refused.
She took her cellphone out and began taking video of the incident. The officer told her she could not do that on camera. She told him she had a right to do that as she was not consenting to her car being searched.
The officer snatched the phone from her and went to delete her video but first threw her up against the car so he could "control" the situation. What he didn't know was that she had her phone set to a ten second passcode, so if there was no action on her phone in ten seconds you needed a code to get back in.
The officer tried to delete the video and could not get the phone access but the video was still running.
Her car was searched by the officer. Nothing was found and she was allowed to leave without even a ticket In Other Words, there was no reason for the pull over stop in the first place. No broken tail light or anything.
As I said, she found a lawyer and won a settlement. Wasn't huge after attorneys fees but she won.
Well done. But if she were clean, and she knew it, why not demonstrate this when requested by a law enforcement officer? Be polite and show them you're clean, and be done with it. I know what's on me, and I also know what's in my car.
And what's wrong with today's society has much more to do with home training than with the school system and the government.
Quote: rudeboyoiYou believing that stop and frisk is a good policy is what's wrong with today's society. Its clearly in direct violation of the 4th amendment but its "okay" because it makes the city a "safer" place.
It's a terrible policy, as it changes what the police's mission is, and I think that's a huge problem in general.
Quote: thecesspitIt's a terrible policy, as it changes what the police's mission is, and I think that's a huge problem in general.
Sadly to you, it worked.
This is not a Josef Stalin kind of thing, as it was fairly reasonable, and it made for safe streets and cities. What it was was politically incorrect.
If you're carrying illegal guns or dope to sell, you're a problem on the city's streets.
Axiom, I wish I had your balls in refusing to be searched. When I'm confronted by a man with his hand on his gun I can't think straight.
Many of her friends told her the same advice you are giving. She feels that is sad. People are giving up their rights voluntarily. We have protections and just as people are warned that large numbers of people abstaining from voting in elections is detrimental by not exercising their rights, so too is allowing the police to trample on us. You don't have to prove you are good citizen to the police. They must prove you are not and that they have a legitimate reason for detaining you.
Remember Dan, you've been pulled over once or twice. I too, the few times it happened to me cooperated.
How would you react Dan, if it happened to you on a monthly basis? If in five years you were searched fifteen or twenty times? If repeatedly while you were late for an appointment, you were stopped for no reason over and over again? As I said, my daughter at age twenty five has been detained over twenty times already.
If the cops knocked on your door and asked to search your house without a warrant, would you allow them in?
BTW, they didn't search her car in a cursory manner. They overturned her belongings, spilled soda while shoving things out the way and emptied out her glove compartment and no, they don't put it back. They left that for her to clean up the mess.
I don't think you are thinking this through Dan.
Quote: PaigowdanSadly to you, it worked.
This is not a Josef Stalin kind of thing, as it was fairly reasonable, and it made for safe streets and cities. What it was was politically incorrect.
If you're carrying illegal guns or dope to sell, you're a problem on the city's streets.
Why should guns be illegal? Why should drugs be illegal?
Quote: PaigowdanThe city ["Citay"] was NEVER a safe place.
And what's wrong with today's society has much more to do with home training than with the school system and the government.
Why should the city be a "safe" place?
Quote: RogerKintI can always tell when Im about to be searched. It's "where are you going, where are you coming from, you seem nervous, step out of the car". When I'm gettin a traffic warning or ticket it's "license and registration please". Interestingly, when I'm frisked and car is searched, I don't receive a ticket for the supposed infraction for which I was pulled over. When they find nothing, they leave as fast as they came, which is nice... except for the rapey feeling afterwards.
Axiom, I wish I had your balls in refusing to be searched. When I'm confronted by a man with his hand on his gun I can't think straight.
Really? No you don't.
Don't have a Rosa Parks, Mahatma Gandhi, or Sojourner Truth kind of "truth to power" episode thing over this when being pulled over by a freaking highway trooper. I understand this entire "My American constipational rights, Gaddamit, - now let me show this dickhead cop the LAW" kind of thing, but you'll be proving nothing but being a resistant-to-arrest clown on a police video tape that'll be shown in court.
Get pulled over by a local trooper with a hard-on somewhere in Farnsworthville, Alabama, don't get slick with the bastard. You HAVE no point to prove.
Just Fully Open your driver side window, keep your hands on the wheel, show him your driver's license and registration, and say "Yes, I was speeding" and be down with it with that. If he asks if "Sir, do you have any contraband on your vehicle," you say "no, sir, I don't," and consent to the search IF clean. If dirty, say "yes, I reject a vehicle search," and get SAFELY busted - and let YOUR LAWYER handle this shit.
Quote: RogerKintAxiom, I wish I had your balls in refusing to be searched. When I'm confronted by a man with his hand on his gun I can't think straight.
NO! Absolutely not! PLAY the Eunuch and get home with no problem, and have your lawyer show his balls - You do NOT want to have "too many balls" or too much stupidity when you engage a heavily armed law officer when he pulls you over on a simple traffic stop, carrying or not.
You will want to be:
1. Cool,
2. Calm,
3. Courteous, and
4. composed for this situation.
You have nothing to prove except that you are an idiot and that your skull is crackable - if you give a state trooper a hard time for no good reason.
If you don't trust cops following the law, then all the more reason to find a safe exit for yourself.
You sue the police from your lawyer's office, and report to a reporter from the Los Angeles Times - from safe at home.
For a low-life criminal to be beaten by cops is bad enough. For a Hush-puppy crumb-cake Milquetoast citizen to deliberately entice an altercation with a cop as a personal exercise to assert his Constipational Rights is folly.
Quote: AxelWolfIf no one ever resisted searches, said no, or sued the police, where would it stop? How far would they keep going? It's bad enough how they act when they know they are wrong and being watched and filmed. I say good for people who keep the police honest and use their rights every chance they get. And good for the nice sheep who always comply.
Well ya, while laying here eating doritos off my bare gut, compliance seems like a total ploppy move. In the moment, however, the huevos shrivel faster than a breathed-in paper bag.
Quote: RogerKintWell ya, while laying here eating doritos off my bare gut, compliance seems like a total ploppy move. In the moment, however, the huevos shrivel faster than a breathed-in paper bag.
Go for the ploppy way out when there are no casino surveillance camera on that Mississippi back road with the state trooper, to back your ass up.
No reason to get slick or fancy - when you can get safe home.
Deal with it later, if you have a resentment from it.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=+checkpoint+refusal&qs=n&form=QBVR&pq=checkpoint+refusal&sc=7-18&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&mid=130ABC5C7CA9C7A9E924130ABC5C7CA9C7A9E924
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=+checkpoint+refusal&qs=n&form=QBVR&pq=checkpoint+refusal&sc=7-18&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&mid=21EA40C7F917EFCAE75D21EA40C7F917EFCAE75D
To be clear, I was not directing that sheep comment at you in any way. I don't think you are a sheepish type person. I normally comply in the first place, I just want to get on with my day and not give them a reason to plant something or toss me in jail. I think I have been treated more then fair in most cases. I have a few good story's where I probably should have been at least ticketed or jailed, yet I was let go.Quote: RogerKintWell ya, while laying here eating doritos off my bare gut, compliance seems like a total ploppy move. In the moment, however, the huevos shrivel faster than a breathed-in paper bag.
I have seen the 2nd Video before. I swore it sounded like Bob Narcessian so i looked up the location and wouldn't you know it, it's Vegas. However the person says he is not a lawyer.Quote: rainmanEducate yourself, be aware of your rights or you are just another sheep, and sheep get sheered.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=+checkpoint+refusal&qs=n&form=QBVR&pq=checkpoint+refusal&sc=7-18&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&mid=130ABC5C7CA9C7A9E924130ABC5C7CA9C7A9E924
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=+checkpoint+refusal&qs=n&form=QBVR&pq=checkpoint+refusal&sc=7-18&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&mid=21EA40C7F917EFCAE75D21EA40C7F917EFCAE75D
Very astute.Quote: Lemieux66The cops play the math and pick out minorities. The math!
When getting pulled over by a trooper, where to be - or acting courteous - like Tommy Lee Jones on a sunny day, is a good solution.
If you're clean, then be courteous and present id, and take your speeding ticket, and high tail it out of there. It's simple.
If dirty, be courteous, and reject what you can.
Why so serious.
Some people(especially gamblers) have A lot of cash on them. I don't know what the laws are about that, but I have heard horror stories.Quote: PaigowdanI don't get it.
When getting pulled over by a trooper, where to be - or acting courteous - like Tommy Lee Jones on a sunny day, is a good solution.
If you're clean, then be courteous and present id, and take your speeding ticket, and high tail it out of there. It's simple.
If dirty, be courteous, and reject what you can.
Why so serious.
