FrankScoblete
FrankScoblete
  • Threads: 69
  • Posts: 436
Joined: Mar 27, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 7:12:39 AM permalink
GAY MARRIAGE

Have our public discourses become merely continuous shouting matches (on television, internet and print) where hyperbole has replaced rational thought and loud language has replaced reason?

Let me take one example for today:

I think gay marriage should be legal. I also see no reason why the government should be involved in approving who gets married to whom in the first place. Now, if you say, “Well, what about men who want to marry eight-year old girls?” I say to you, “That is child abuse if such a marriage takes place and prosecute it as such.”

But adults? Marry whomever and how many you want. My wife the Beautiful AP (who is always right by the way) agrees with me. (Whew!)

Now, I have a very close friend who is totally opposed to gay marriage. His belief is that it weakens the traditional family structure. We’ve discussed this several times. He can’t convince me and I can’t convince him. Still we are great friends.

Is he homophobic because of his belief? Is he evil? Should he be shouted down in the public square? Should I shun him?

(Read my new books "I Am a Card Counter" and "Confessions of a Wayward Catholic.")
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 7:19:11 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete



Is he homophobic because of his belief? Is he evil? Should he be shouted down in the public square? Should I shun him?



No, no, and it is up to you.

However, the gay movement has no tolerance for the views of others so they will say he is and they will shout him down in the public square then demand his boss fire him.

Welcome to USA, 2014 edition.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 7:24:07 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

Is he homophobic because of his belief? Is he evil? Should he be shouted down in the public square? Should I shun him?



If he believed Jews, or Muslims, or Hindus, or Buddhists, for example, should not be allowed to gather for purposes of prayer services, while Christians are allowed, would you say he's bigoted?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
RonC
RonC
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
April 13th, 2014 at 7:33:00 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

Now, I have a very close friend who is totally opposed to gay marriage. His belief is that it weakens the traditional family structure. We’ve discussed this several times. He can’t convince me and I can’t convince him. Still we are great friends.

Is he homophobic because of his belief? Is he evil? Should he be shouted down in the public square? Should I shun him?



Many "liberalizations" of accepted behavior have impacted the traditional family structure as well as our values as a country/community. Whether gay marriage will further do so is debatable, which is why people have differing views on the matter.

He is not evil and need not be shunned just because his opinion does not go along with the way others would have him believe as long as he is not attacking them personally.

We CAN have differing opinions and not be hateful...some people feel they must be hateful to those who oppose their position.
bw
bw
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 305
Joined: Aug 9, 2012
April 13th, 2014 at 8:12:46 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

GAY MARRIAGE

Have our public discourses become merely continuous shouting matches (on television, internet and print) where hyperbole has replaced rational thought and loud language has replaced reason?

Let me take one example for today:

I think gay marriage should be legal. I also see no reason why the government should be involved in approving who gets married to whom in the first place. Now, if you say, “Well, what about men who want to marry eight-year old girls?” I say to you, “That is child abuse if such a marriage takes place and prosecute it as such.”

But adults? Marry whomever and how many you want. My wife the Beautiful AP (who is always right by the way) agrees with me. (Whew!)

Now, I have a very close friend who is totally opposed to gay marriage. His belief is that it weakens the traditional family structure. We’ve discussed this several times. He can’t convince me and I can’t convince him. Still we are great friends.

Is he homophobic because of his belief? Is he evil? Should he be shouted down in the public square? Should I shun him?

(Read my new books "I Am a Card Counter" and "Confessions of a Wayward Catholic.")



How would the marrying how many you want affect social security for surviving spouses, pensions for spouses, etc.?
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
April 13th, 2014 at 9:00:47 AM permalink
I am a proponent of gay marriage, but it is more about equal rights than gay marriage. From a personal point, it could present a bit of a headache, because I am not interested in marrying anyone right now and I have a partner who probably would be pushing for that if it were legal in Nevada or outside marriages were recognized in Nevada. So I have enjoyed the best of both world, supporting gay marriage and equal rights while having a personal barrier. lol But I suspect that we be coming to an end as this fight winds down. This fight is over. It's only a matter of time till things become official.

Frank made an interesting comment about his 'friend who opposed gay marriage'. The friend's reasoning was that it weakened traditional marriage. It is funny because that is the very wording of the argument that lost this battle for anti-gay marriage movement. At nearly every court proceedings on the topic, the anti's will use the 'weaken' argument, but they have never been able to show HOW allowing gay marriage harmed, or weakened two straight people that were married. It is pretty hard to sue for damages when you can't show any damages. lol

Regardless, as I said, this fight is over. The shift in public change in sentiment has been pretty swift and severe as these things usually move at glacier speeds. And even though the current majority in favor of gay marriage is not an overwhelming landslide at the moment, it is a very generational split. Younger people, even conservative leaning younger people do overwhelmingly favor gay marriage, while it is only the oldest demographics that are still slightly against, which means each and every day as the older population dies off, the numbers move more in favor of gay marriage becoming the law of the land.
Lemieux66
Lemieux66
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 1226
Joined: Feb 16, 2014
April 13th, 2014 at 9:48:43 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

No, no, and it is up to you.

However, the gay movement has no tolerance for the views of others so they will say he is and they will shout him down in the public square then demand his boss fire him.

Welcome to USA, 2014 edition.



+1

I'm against gay marriage solely so these people can be pissed off because of it.
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 9:49:22 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I am a proponent of gay marriage, but it is more about equal rights than gay marriage. If you deny gay people the right to marry, the next logical step is that you can deny other rights. You can deny housing. You can fire them for no other reason that because they are gay and you don't like that. If you treat all people as equal from the top down, it says that discrimination in other areas also will no be accepted.



Gays were never "discriminated against" in marriage. They could marry anyone of the opposite sex that they pleased.

I would hardly say there is "overwhelming support." There seems to be people buying the child throwing a hissy fit at the cash register a candy bar to quiet them down. As I have said before, I cannot wait until we have to recognize polygamy as there is now no legal reason why we can ban it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Twirdman
Twirdman
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 1004
Joined: Jun 5, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 10:01:53 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Gays were never "discriminated against" in marriage. They could marry anyone of the opposite sex that they pleased.

I would hardly say there is "overwhelming support." There seems to be people buying the child throwing a hissy fit at the cash register a candy bar to quiet them down. As I have said before, I cannot wait until we have to recognize polygamy as there is now no legal reason why we can ban it.



That is a super silly argument. Oh they aren't discriminated against they can marry anyone of the opposite sex they want not my fault they don't want to because by definition they are gay and attracted to members of the same sex. Clearly by limiting it to marriage between members of opposite sex you are putting a substantial burden on gay people and make it functionally impossible to have the same freedom in marriage a straight person has. Now you can try and say that is OK and we could have a reasoned argument about that but don't pull out the tired old crap about how they are free to marry members of the opposite sex.

Also there is a legal reason to ban polygamy mainly it makes contract law incredibly difficult. Say woman has two husbands and she gets into an accident putting her in a persistent vegetative state. Husband 1 wants to pull the plug husband 2 wants to keep her alive she has no living will. What do you do. Also division of property could become more difficult depending on how complex an arrangement you had. All of these are things that have to be totally sorted out before you could even begin to legalize polygamy. Now personally I think polygamy should be legal if we can work out these kinks but again there are barriers to legalizing polygamy that go beyond just it isn't traditional marriage or its icky which seem to be the arguments against gay marriage.
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
April 13th, 2014 at 10:09:50 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Gays were never "discriminated against" in marriage. They could marry anyone of the opposite sex that they pleased.

I would hardly say there is "overwhelming support." There seems to be people buying the child throwing a hissy fit at the cash register a candy bar to quiet them down. As I have said before, I cannot wait until we have to recognize polygamy as there is now no legal reason why we can ban it.



I actually was deleting the lines you quoted just as you were quoting them, just because I didn't want to expand to the discrimination argument.

You can justify the change in support by thinking it is appeasing a child if it makes you feel better AZDuffman, but that's clearly not what is happening. What has happened is that people have witnessed first hand that the gay couple down the street raising two children are not that different than themselves. The have the same concerns about little league and raising money for school class trips and arguing about where they are going on vacation.

Human nature is to oppose what is different than you, but when you take the time to get to know someone, you find they are not that different. Once you discover they are not that different, then it really comes back to they are different because of what? What they do in the bedroom? How is that anyone else's concern. Most of the younger generation is not concerned with the bedroom argument. It's only those like yourself that are consumed with what other people are doing in their bedrooms that continue to make the fight. Live your life sir, and let other's live theirs. :-)
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 11:13:56 AM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

That is a super silly argument. Oh they aren't discriminated against they can marry anyone of the opposite sex they want not my fault they don't want to because by definition they are gay and attracted to members of the same sex. Clearly by limiting it to marriage between members of opposite sex you are putting a substantial burden on gay people and make it functionally impossible to have the same freedom in marriage a straight person has. Now you can try and say that is OK and we could have a reasoned argument about that but don't pull out the tired old crap about how they are free to marry members of the opposite sex.



It isn't "tired old crap" it is the truth. If you choose to be with someone of the same sex that is fine with me, just do not ask the rules be changed because of your choice.

Quote:

Also there is a legal reason to ban polygamy mainly it makes contract law incredibly difficult. Say woman has two husbands and she gets into an accident putting her in a persistent vegetative state. Husband 1 wants to pull the plug husband 2 wants to keep her alive she has no living will. What do you do. Also division of property could become more difficult depending on how complex an arrangement you had. All of these are things that have to be totally sorted out before you could even begin to legalize polygamy. Now personally I think polygamy should be legal if we can work out these kinks but again there are barriers to legalizing polygamy that go beyond just it isn't traditional marriage or its icky which seem to be the arguments against gay marriage.



Sorry, but your argument does not wash when you compare it to the gay marriage "why shouldn't I be allowed to marry who I want to" line. I mean, it's not my fault they are attracted to more than one person each of whom is OK with the arrangement. By limiting marriage to just two people you are making it functionally impossible to have the same freedom in marriage a couple has.

See? Your same argument fits perfectly.

Quote: kewlj


You can justify the change in support by thinking it is appeasing a child if it makes you feel better AZDuffman, but that's clearly not what is happening. What has happened is that people have witnessed first hand that the gay couple down the street raising two children are not that different than themselves. The have the same concerns about little league and raising money for school class trips and arguing about where they are going on vacation.



No, it is exactly what is happening. There should be the same number of gays in the USA now as there were at most other points. What people "have witnessed" is the placing of gay characters on TV shows and movies and some think that is what reality is like. They see some idealized version of things. Sorry, but gays have thrown a 25 or so year hissy fit and people are giving in.

Quote:

Human nature is to oppose what is different than you, but when you take the time to get to know someone, you find they are not that different. Once you discover they are not that different, then it really comes back to they are different because of what? What they do in the bedroom? How is that anyone else's concern. Most of the younger generation is not concerned with the bedroom argument. It's only those like yourself that are consumed with what other people are doing in their bedrooms that continue to make the fight. Live your life sir, and let other's live theirs. :-)



I am not "consumed with what they do in their bedrooms." I am tired of the in-your-face attitude gays have exhibited. I am tired of being told there is something wrong with me if I do not accept and support them and their agenda. I am tired of the "I have no choice" argument. I am tired of institutions being changed for 1% or so of the population. I am tired of business owners being told they have to accept the agenda or be subject to mafia-style shakedowns and discrimination from politicians on operating their business just because of their views but no laws have been broken.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
April 13th, 2014 at 11:33:49 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman


I am not "consumed with what they do in their bedrooms." I am tired of the in-your-face attitude gays have exhibited. I am tired of being told there is something wrong with me if I do not accept and support them and their agenda. I am tired of the "I have no choice" argument. I am tired of institutions being changed for 1% or so of the population. I am tired of business owners being told they have to accept the agenda or be subject to mafia-style shakedowns and discrimination from politicians on operating their business just because of their views but no laws have been broken.



Maybe you should look into moving to Russian. Seems like you are more in tune with their attitudes. Plus I don't think you are going to like the way this plays out and the way the US is going to continue to trend.

For what it's worth, your argument has won me over. Polygamy should be legal. What consenting adults do should be there own business. So gay marriage and polygamy are now both legal. Are you now happy? lol
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 11:40:00 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Maybe you should look into moving to Russian. Seems like you are more in tune with their attitudes. Plus I don't think you are going to like the way this plays out and the way the US is going to continue to trend.



It's too cold and I don't speak Russian. But yes, I am more in agreement with them on this.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9557
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 12:06:00 PM permalink
Heterosexuals have gay marriages all the time.

original meaning of 'gay' in this wisecrack. The modern use of the word comes from female prostitutes being called that. OH, don't believe it? Wanna bet?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 12:22:47 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Maybe you should look into moving to Russian.



Oh, but the Russians don't have polygamy, either.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 12:28:42 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Heterosexuals have gay marriages all the time.

original meaning of 'gay' in this wisecrack. The modern use of the word comes from female prostitutes being called that. OH, don't believe it? Wanna bet?



Not going to say I don't believe it but I will say I never heard it. Only other meaning of gay I have ever heard was joyful/happy as sung in "When Johnny Comes Marching Home." As a side note I remember my elementary school music teacher wanting to use a different word but could not come up with one that didn't fit the single-note in the melody.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9557
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 12:36:36 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Not going to say I don't believe it but I will say I never heard it.



That the word 'gay' is in a lot of old songs is, well, sad.

I don't want to start any 'stuff' but obviously the etymology here is not complimentary to what has become even formal usage, thus to mention it is 'not done'.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
April 13th, 2014 at 12:50:01 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

It's too cold and I don't speak Russian. But yes, I am more in agreement with them on this.



Why? Seriously, I would like to understand. Without all the rhetoric and stuff, let's tone it down and I would like you to explain how allowing two persons, deeply in love with each other, in a committed, loving relationship, to recognize and celebrate their love and commitment as well as protect their assets and rights in any way, reduces, diminishes or effects the commitment that you and the presumably lovely Mrs Duffman have made for each other?

Your commitment and bond is special to you. Nothing anyone else does should or does effect that.

As near as I can tell it really comes down to something you said earlier. You don't like them (gays) and you don't want them "in your face" or even on your planet. Is that REALLY what you think America is about? Your hate and desire to deny others the same rights and happiness that you (hopefully) enjoy, saddens and confuses me.
petroglyph
petroglyph
  • Threads: 19
  • Posts: 3360
Joined: Jan 3, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 1:06:35 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Why? Seriously, I would like to understand. Without all the rhetoric and stuff, lets tone it down and I would like you to explain how allowing two persons, deeply in love with each other, in a committed, loving relationship, to recognize and celebrate their love and commitment as well as protect their assets and rights in any way, reduces, diminishes or effects the commitment that you and the presumably lovely Mrs Duffman have made for each other?

Your commitment and bond is special to you. Nothing anyone else does should or does effect that.

As near as I can tell it really comes down to something you said earlier. You don't like them (gays) and you don't want them "in your face" or even on your planet. Is that REALLY what you think America is about?

Your hate and desire to deny others the same rights and happiness that you enjoy (hopefully) confuses me. I don't mean to be insulting, but from your posts and things that you mention it would seem you are at least somewhat along in years. Let go of your hate and find happiness and enjoy your time with Mrs Duffman and stop worrying so much what other people are doing. They aren't affecting you, your bond or commitment.




Kewlj, I don't understand the hate either. I am NOT saying this apply's to AzDuffman but I do think in some cases it's latent, or fear or not being secure in one's own skin or choice.

I'm straight with gay friends and to me they have been and are honorable people who have a firm belief in right and wrong that closely parallel's my own. Most discrepancies involve the NFL.

I typed this out earlier and did not post as my beliefs don't consider anyones sexual preference but I will disagree with anyone who thinks little kids should be included [not saying LG's do].

I guess I need to get this out so here goes. I witnessed people get into their fifties who had failed several marriage's and found happiness with those of their same sex. They became happy after a life of suffering. I know gays in their sixty's who I don't know are sexually active or not but seem genuinely committed to each other's happiness and health. I've witnessed the opposite with standard marriages.

I am not mysogynist but occasionlly I can roll play. People of all persuasions should not be hasty in any legal bond that can last longer than life.

I don't see the polygamists all that happy. Most of the ones we've run into are snobs.

The Russians? They are tribal.
Lemieux66
Lemieux66
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 1226
Joined: Feb 16, 2014
April 13th, 2014 at 1:14:27 PM permalink
I dislike the so-called "progressive" minded people whom can't tolerate other people's opinions. So, in turn, I'm against gay marriage because it would make them happy. I'm also against anything else that would make them happy such as winning a hand of blackjack or eating their favorite food.
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
Twirdman
Twirdman
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 1004
Joined: Jun 5, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 1:16:10 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

It isn't "tired old crap" it is the truth. If you choose to be with someone of the same sex that is fine with me, just do not ask the rules be changed because of your choice.



Sorry, but your argument does not wash when you compare it to the gay marriage "why shouldn't I be allowed to marry who I want to" line. I mean, it's not my fault they are attracted to more than one person each of whom is OK with the arrangement. By limiting marriage to just two people you are making it functionally impossible to have the same freedom in marriage a couple has.

See? Your same argument fits perfectly.





And I put legitimate reasons why polygamy could be banned. There are complex legal ramifications of allowing it. Again I think it should be allowed but making it legal is far more complex than making gay marriage legal. Gay marriage would require no change in how we handle end of life decisions or anything else. The only change that would be made is gays can marry. Other than tradition since we have changed the laws plenty of times even though such change flew in the face of tradition, can you give any legitimate reason why the state has a compelling reason to disallow gay marriage similar in scope to the scenario I posed.

Again gay marriage as well as polygamy should be legalized in my opinion but it is far more complex an issue than if gays can marry I should be able to have two wives.

Also I'd like to say while the proportion of gays has remained the same the number of them people see has gone up dramatically. The simple fact is in areas where homosexuality is accepted the rate at which people come out of the closet is significantly higher. That is why in say the 50s not as many people came out as gay compared to today.
24Bingo
24Bingo
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 1348
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
April 13th, 2014 at 1:27:42 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

It's too cold and I don't speak Russian. But yes, I am more in agreement with them on this.



You heard it here first, folks - private citizens cutting off business associations based on a CEO's past political donations is more inimical to free speech than the state arresting anyone who suggests homosexuality is a thing within earshot of a minor.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
April 13th, 2014 at 1:43:10 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

The modern use of the word comes from female prostitutes being called that. OH, don't believe it?



I believe it. In the 1890s a gay house was a brothel. But even as far back as the 1300's the word was always slightly ambigious. It could mean "wanton, lewd, lascivious" as well as"full of joy, merry; light-hearted, carefree" .

The is an unofficial history that homosexuals used the term as far back as the 1920's. It began to appear in psychological writing late 1940s, evidently picked up from street slang. Obviously it wasn't commonplace in the 1960's, or they wouldn't use the phrase in The Flintstone's.

It wasn't until the 1970's that the word began to have it's primary meaning of being homosexual.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 1:44:36 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Why? Seriously, I would like to understand. Without all the rhetoric and stuff, let's tone it down and I would like you to explain how allowing two persons, deeply in love with each other, in a committed, loving relationship, to recognize and celebrate their love and commitment as well as protect their assets and rights in any way, reduces, diminishes or effects the commitment that you and the presumably lovely Mrs Duffman have made for each other?



Marriage was designed to allow one male and one female to raise kids and protect each other throughout life as this was seen as a healthy way to live. Anthropologically, mankind has an aversion to homosexual behavior. This can be seen in societies that have never seen or communicated with each other. When you see something like this it is obvious to me anyways that nature has given mankind this aversion because this is an undesirable behavior. Call it an instinct or whatever you like, we are wired this way for a reason. While I am not advocating it be a capital offense, I do not think we should be promoting it and indeed should teach it as unhealthy in school health classes, etc. We used to do this.


Quote:

As near as I can tell it really comes down to something you said earlier. You don't like them (gays) and you don't want them "in your face" or even on your planet. Is that REALLY what you think America is about? Your hate and desire to deny others the same rights and happiness that you (hopefully) enjoy, saddens and confuses me.



I said I don't like them or want them on the planet? Please provide the hyperlink. But yes, I am sick of the "in your face" part of it all. I am not asking to deny any rights. But I am tired of them asking for special rights. This include marriage benefits for people of the same sex, demands to let little boys use the girls room because they think they are a girl, demands a male be allowed to dress in drag in an area customers see; yes I will deny these so-called "rights" any day of the week.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
April 13th, 2014 at 1:46:10 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

That is why in say the 50s not as many people came out as gay compared to today.



Yes, having to hide who you are must have been a horrible life. One of the guys that I live with (the second is straight btw) came out in his 30's after a 13 year 'traditional' marriage. He doesn't talk about that part of his life much, but it seems pretty clear this was a very unhappy chapter in his life.

BTW, that coming out period occurred 20 years ago, long before he ever met me, so I am not to blame. lol
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
April 13th, 2014 at 2:08:31 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

While I am not advocating it be a capital offense, I do not think we should be promoting it and indeed should teach it as unhealthy in school health classes, etc. We used to do this.



O! M! G! Now, I just feel bad for you. Are you SERIOIUSLY attempting to link pedophilia to homosexuality? There is extensive research which says that 95% of all pedophiles are straight, with the overwhelming majority being adult straight males. And just think about how low even these numbers are as these are only reported cases. Many, many cases involving young girls and their pedophile fathers/stepfathers will go unreported. In addition, until recent years many cases involving underage boys and adult females were not reported, as the boys used to look at these activities as a badge of honor or something to brag about.

Furthermore, do you know what the consequences were of these policies in the 50's and 60's were to gay teenagers, who were told they were 'sick' or 'abnormal'. The suicide rate soared.

I am just stunned. I thought there might be room for reasonable discussion with you, but I see that is not the case. You are very far out of touch with reality. That's not meant as an insult...just look at the video you produced. I truly, truly feel bad for you.
Twirdman
Twirdman
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 1004
Joined: Jun 5, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 2:08:50 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Marriage was designed to allow one male and one female to raise kids and protect each other throughout life as this was seen as a healthy way to live. Anthropologically, mankind has an aversion to homosexual behavior. This can be seen in societies that have never seen or communicated with each other. When you see something like this it is obvious to me anyways that nature has given mankind this aversion because this is an undesirable behavior. Call it an instinct or whatever you like, we are wired this way for a reason. While I am not advocating it be a capital offense, I do not think we should be promoting it and indeed should teach it as unhealthy in school health classes, etc. We used to do this.


.




That was not at all what marriage was decinded for. Marriage was decinded to establish a lineage and to fix issues of contract law and establish alliances. This is why for a long time the vast majority of people never got a traditional marriage. Lineage matters a lot for a king significantly less for a farmer. Also it was rarely simply the mother and father raising a child anthropologically hence the saying it takes a village, villages did use to take part in raising and village elders played arguably a larger part than the actual parents. Also tons of societies throughout history have had no such aversion to homosexuality so citing some as proof is fallacious at best.

Also you cannot actually be advocating for that video right. You realize that homosexuals aren't the same as pedophiles. One involves 2 consenting adults the other doesn't. We have no reason to believe that homosexuals are more likely to engage in pedophilia so that video is utter crap.
Twirdman
Twirdman
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 1004
Joined: Jun 5, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 2:13:16 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Quote: AZDuffman

While I am not advocating it be a capital offense, I do not think we should be promoting it and indeed should teach it as unhealthy in school health classes, etc. We used to do this.



O! M! G! Now, I just feel bad for you. Are you SERIOIUSLY attempting to link pedophilia to homosexuality? There is extensive research which says that 95% of all pedophiles are straight, with the overwhelming majority being adult straight males. And just think about how low even these numbers are as these are only reported cases and many, many cases involving young girls and their pedophile fathers/stepfathers will go unreported.

Furthermore, do you know what the consequences were of these policies in the 50's and 60's were to gay teenagers, who were told they were 'sick' or 'abnormal'. The suicide rate soared.

I am just stunned. I thought there might be room for reasonable discussion with you, but I see that is not the case. You are very far out of touch with reality. That's not meant as an insult...just look at the video you produced. I truly, truly feel bad for you.



Hell the suicide rate is still abnormally high because we teach this crap. People keep saying that gays are evil or wrong and they should be fixed and try to become straight. Well given they were born gay becoming straight is impossible but we keep trying to play it like its some choice so the kid thinks well there must be something wrong with me and I cannot fix it. Suddenly the only way out seems a bullet or a rope.

Also conservatives love to play up well gays are accepted now just look at how many are shown on TV. If people really thought it was OK to be gay explain to me how LGBT teens have higher suicide rates than basically any other demographic. It is time we start really pushing that there is nothing wrong with being born gay. You are not some monster you just happen to be attracted to the same gender and there is nothing wrong with that. Like other men doesn't make you less of a man and the gay stereotypes are mostly total bull.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 2:21:55 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj



O! M! G! Now, I just feel bad for you. Are you SERIOIUSLY attempting to link pedophilia to homosexuality? There is extensive research which says that 95% of all pedophiles are straight, with the overwhelming majority being adult straight males.



Yes, I am linking it. Not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but pedophile behavior is a form of homosexual behavior. The are not "straight males" because if they were they would not be doing this behavior.

Quote:

Furthermore, do you know what the consequences were of these policies in the 50's and 60's were to gay teenagers, who were told they were 'sick' or 'abnormal'. The suicide rate soared.



They also would get treatment back then, today the movement is to ban treatment as has already been done in CA.

Quote:

I am just stunned. I thought there might be room for reasonable discussion with you, but I see that is not the case. You are very far out of touch with reality. That's not meant as an insult...just look at the video you produced. I truly, truly feel bad for you.



No need to feel bad for me, I believe what I feel to be right. Science, nature, and history are behind me. And mark my words, in 10-20 years the "movement" will be about lowering age of consent so guys like in the video can approach 16 year olds. Just wait.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 2:25:59 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

It is time we start really pushing that there is nothing wrong with being born gay.



Start? This push has been going on for years. Perhaps the higher suicide and substance abuse rates are because it is a choice and not a healthy one? Or if not a choice then seduced into it for some reason?

Since no "gay gene" has ever been found I mean.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Twirdman
Twirdman
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 1004
Joined: Jun 5, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 2:28:42 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Yes, I am linking it. Not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but pedophile behavior is a form of homosexual behavior. The are not "straight males" because if they were they would not be doing this behavior.



They also would get treatment back then, today the movement is to ban treatment as has already been done in CA.



So a man diddling a little girl is OK since that is totally straight right. Or how about a woman molesting a teenager. I hope you realize child molestation isn't wrong because it may involve homosexuals it is wrong because it involves a person who is incapable of giving consent.

Also that treatment is banned because it is incredibly harmful and has been shown to be totally ineffectual.
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
April 13th, 2014 at 2:34:13 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

but pedophile behavior is a form of homosexual behavior.



WHAT??? Again, 95% of all reported cases of pedophilia involve an adult of one sex (usually male) and an underage child of another sex (usually female).

So how is this homosexual behavior? By your logic, since 95% of cases involve a straight adult as the aggressor, perhaps we should ban all heterosexual behavior. lol

I can't even comment on the rest. You have left me speechless. Your words speak more about you than I can.


Thank you, Frank for this thread. My housemates went to brunch on this beautiful, 80 degree Sunday in Vegas, and I stayed on my computer, wasting my Sunday morning and now early afternoon. lol
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 2:37:21 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

So a man diddling a little girl is OK since that is totally straight right. Or how about a woman molesting a teenager. I hope you realize child molestation isn't wrong because it may involve homosexuals it is wrong because it involves a person who is incapable of giving consent.



When did I say either was OK? And unlike your claim, I am not going to say "it is not straight behavior" as though because they engage in it any other straight behavior is bad. I am going to call it out as unacceptable sexual behavior.

Quote:

Also that treatment is banned because it is incredibly harmful and has been shown to be totally ineffectual.



Not really, seems more like it was banned because it does not fit the "born that way" meme. But if born this way was so true then why the total movement against any attempt at conversion? The futility would show itself and the practice would die out.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
FrankScoblete
FrankScoblete
  • Threads: 69
  • Posts: 436
Joined: Mar 27, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 2:39:29 PM permalink
I believe that the big argument is over the actual word "marriage." Most Americans do not care what people do in their private homes or, if they do care, they don’t take actions against them. The frowners will frown and that will be that. If two men are living together or two women are living together most people don't get all upset about it. Most people actually don’t care.

Now, say the word "marriage" and bam! for some that is a horror. “Marriage? Marriage? That is absolutely wrong!” My friend believes in “civil unions” but he doesn’t believe in marriage. To me they are the same thing. But if you are gay you probably prefer the word “marriage” because the word “marriage” has far more power than the words “civil union.”

The discussion of ruining family values doesn’t ring true if by family values we mean a stable, loving home; strong parents and true commitment. These are traits of individuals and not of sexual orientation.

The village where I live is heavily Catholic. It is also called by some “the gay capital of Long Island.” Our homes are beautiful; the streets are clean; the people are friendly and no one cares whether the couple next door is gay, straight or doesn’t care about sex at all. We have a good number of married gays and lesbians. They are rather conservative when you get down to it.

I do believe that the government should stay out of this but I understand the problem of divorce and who gets what and who gets whom. That can be worked out. But gay marriage? There is so much more to be concerned about in our world than two people who love each other tying the knot.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 2:39:37 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Yes, I am linking it. Not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but pedophile behavior is a form of homosexual behavior. The are not "straight males" because if they were they would not be doing this behavior.



They also would get treatment back then, today the movement is to ban treatment as has already been done in CA.



No need to feel bad for me, I believe what I feel to be right. Science, nature, and history are behind me. And mark my words, in 10-20 years the "movement" will be about lowering age of consent so guys like in the video can approach 16 year olds. Just wait.



Marriage is, and always has been, about property. Dowry. Alliances. Inheritance. Say-so over another person's fortunes, health decisions, taxes, etc. The gay marriage movement is about the right to make health care decisions, to leave money and property to the spouse without interference or legal statute, the tax advantages, family health plans, all the rest. Economic equality and rights over hospital/death/court testimony/other legal issues which make a special case for the spouse. It's not special status for gays; it's gaining equal status already accorded to married people.

AZD, pedophilia is distinctly separate from homosexuality not "a form" of it, in every accepted definition by psychiatric experts. Many straight men who are pedophiles prey on both male and female adolescents; it's the lack of secondary sexual characteristics that attracts them, almost by definition. Your conflating them is not correct at best, and I think it's misleading and hurtful for you to continue to do it. Please move on.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
endermike
endermike
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 584
Joined: Dec 10, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 2:54:02 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

AZD, pedophilia is distinctly separate from homosexuality not "a form" of it, in every accepted definition by psychiatric experts.

I'm guessing AZD doesn't believe the consensus on this as a settled issue. The science is still too mixed for him.
Quote: AZDuffman

Science, nature, and history are behind me.

Correction, I believe he thinks its settled in his opinion's favor.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 3:17:50 PM permalink
Quote: endermike

I'm guessing AZD doesn't believe the consensus on this as a settled issue. The science is still too mixed for him.
Correction, I believe he thinks its settled in his opinion's favor.



I would reply but have been asked to move on. I ask that others do as well, and request the thread be locked as well so all do.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Twirdman
Twirdman
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 1004
Joined: Jun 5, 2013
April 13th, 2014 at 3:18:47 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

When did I say either was OK? And unlike your claim, I am not going to say "it is not straight behavior" as though because they engage in it any other straight behavior is bad. I am going to call it out as unacceptable sexual behavior.



Not really, seems more like it was banned because it does not fit the "born that way" meme. But if born this way was so true then why the total movement against any attempt at conversion? The futility would show itself and the practice would die out.



Fine along that route should schools than teach about the dangers of straight people. Seems a little silly to teach about the dangers of both straight and gay people. What about bisexual people should we warn about the dangers of them. That would just leave asexual people that its OK for children to be around. I think Kinsey estimated them at roughly 2% of population so clearly got a lot of work cut out for em.

Couldn't we instead focus our time more wisely and warn children about the danger of pedophiles.
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
April 13th, 2014 at 3:37:30 PM permalink
What I would love to see is this az guy explain why his views are not bigotry.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
hwccdealer
hwccdealer
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 365
Joined: Jun 4, 2013
April 14th, 2014 at 5:16:35 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Gays were never "discriminated against" in marriage. They could marry anyone of the opposite sex that they pleased.



And I suppose people in interracial marriages were never discriminated against. Just marry someone of the same race - problem solved!

To be frank, though, there's probably easier, more efficient, and less restrictive and discriminatory ways to divvy up the rights we associate with marriage than marriage itself. And for that reason, I believe that the government should not recognize any marriage, gay, straight, polygamist, or otherwise. Well, also, because people have totally screwed up marriage with divorce and these quickie BS marriages like Kim Kardashian and Kris Humphries. If people can't handle it, then the government needs to either back off or enforce stringent regulation (i.e. ban divorce, require classes before marriage, etc.) Since the latter is too much work and people would hate it, the best thing to do is for the government to simply back the eff off.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9557
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
April 14th, 2014 at 5:57:36 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I believe it. In the 1890s a gay house was a brothel.



very searchable btw

https://www.google.com/#q=etymology+of+gay
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 209
  • Posts: 12166
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
April 14th, 2014 at 6:37:20 PM permalink
Quote: hwccdealer

Since the latter is too much work and people would hate it, the best thing to do is for the government to simply back the eff off.



Looks like some want more government interference not less.

Quote:

In cooperation with the Family Research Council and the National Organization for Marriage, socially conservative politicians have been quietly trying to make it harder for couples to get divorced. In recent years, lawmakers in more than a dozen states have introduced bills imposing longer waiting periods before a divorce is granted, mandating counseling courses or limiting the reasons a couple can formally split. States such as Arizona, Louisiana and Utah have already passed such laws, while others such as Oklahoma and Alabama are moving to do so.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/conservatives-arent-just-fighting-same-sex-marriage-theyre-also-trying-to-stop-divorce/2014/04/11/5f649bd6-bf48-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_story.html
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
ams288
ams288
  • Threads: 22
  • Posts: 6483
Joined: Sep 26, 2012
April 15th, 2014 at 10:35:21 AM permalink
So glad this thread had run its course before I saw it.

Yeesh.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
ams288
ams288
  • Threads: 22
  • Posts: 6483
Joined: Sep 26, 2012
April 15th, 2014 at 10:52:29 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but pedophile behavior is a form of homosexual behavior. The are not "straight males" because if they were they would not be doing this behavior.



This post is an all-timer. Can I make this my signature? Is that against the new rules?
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
Lemieux66
Lemieux66
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 1226
Joined: Feb 16, 2014
April 15th, 2014 at 11:37:46 AM permalink
Quote: ams288

This post is an all-timer. Can I make this my signature? Is that against the new rules?



If an adult male is a pedophile and is doing the act with a young boy, he is doing a homosexual act. But the dominant thing is he's a pedophile.
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
Dracula
Dracula
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 14, 2014
April 15th, 2014 at 11:57:21 AM permalink
Quote: Lemieux66

If an adult male is a pedophile and is doing the act with a young boy, he is doing a homosexual act. But the dominant thing is he's a pedophile.



Wtf does that have to do with the price of tea in china?! That's a far stretch from gay marriage lol. If this, if that, if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle
Dracula
Dracula
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 14, 2014
April 15th, 2014 at 11:59:44 AM permalink
Quote: Lemieux66

If an adult male is a pedophile and is doing the act with a young boy, he is doing a homosexual act. But the dominant thing is he's a pedophile.


=no gay marriage?

This one will be my sig.
Lemieux66
Lemieux66
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 1226
Joined: Feb 16, 2014
April 15th, 2014 at 12:02:05 PM permalink
Quote: Dracula

=no gay marriage?

This one will be my sig.



I thought the conversation took another turn.
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
Dracula
Dracula
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 14, 2014
April 15th, 2014 at 12:17:05 PM permalink
Did it? Who cares if 2 people of the same sex want to get married? I have enough to worry about in my own life to worry about if 2 guys like to do a stand up 69.
I'm not sure why pedophile statistics are being recited in something about gay marriage, but hey, WHO AM I TO JUdGe?
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 15th, 2014 at 12:33:57 PM permalink
Yeah, this thread has gone seriously off-topic and south. If there's anything further that needs to be said, I encourage you to take it to DT. This thread is closed.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
  • Jump to: