The LGBT Military Shower Debate
Seriously, what the heck is going on today? Someone needs to tell libs that the military exists to protect us, not to serve as some silly social experiment.
Quote: Beethoven9thCommission Finds ‘No Compelling Medical Reason’ To Exclude Transgender Americans From Military
Seriously, what the heck is going on today? Someone needs to tell libs that the military exists to protect us, not to serve as some silly social experiment.
What does transgender have to do with serving in the military?
Quote: boymimboQuote: Beethoven9thCommission Finds ‘No Compelling Medical Reason’ To Exclude Transgender Americans From Military
Seriously, what the heck is going on today? Someone needs to tell libs that the military exists to protect us, not to serve as some silly social experiment.
What does transgender have to do with serving in the military?
The big problem is having to shower/bathe/bunk with transgendered or homosexual people. At basic our flight had a gay guy and he made many of us uncomfortable since we all had 5 minutes to shower as a flight so you really aren't concerned about getting unclothed in front of others, but many people had issues having to be exposed in front of a gay guy who was sexually turned on. The big problem too was we would all feel this way and told our MTI but his hands were tied since the scandal at Lackland just happened and any hint of sexual harassment could jeopardize his job.
As open and accepting as I am this was something that I didn't want a part of. Of course I'd be labeled a bigot for saying these things officially.
Thank you for this post. This is a major issue that libs (including people on this board) love to gloss over. They act like showering with a gay guy is no big deal, yet I highly doubt that they've showered with gay guys themselves.Quote: djatcThe big problem is having to shower/bathe/bunk with transgendered or homosexual people. At basic our flight had a gay guy and he made many of us uncomfortable since we all had 5 minutes to shower as a flight so you really aren't concerned about getting unclothed in front of others, but many people had issues having to be exposed in front of a gay guy who was sexually turned on.
*facepalm*Quote: boymimboWhat does transgender have to do with serving in the military?
Quote: boymimboQuote: Beethoven9thCommission Finds ‘No Compelling Medical Reason’ To Exclude Transgender Americans From Military
Seriously, what the heck is going on today? Someone needs to tell libs that the military exists to protect us, not to serve as some silly social experiment.
What does transgender have to do with serving in the military?
Right! It is not disruptive to military efficiency or anything like that.
Seriously, you do not have a "right" to serve in the military. Many things just do not belong there.
I'm sorry that you were raped by the transgendered or homosexual people. Maybe if you work out a little more, you can fight off those advances.Quote: djatcThe big problem is having to shower/bathe/bunk with transgendered or homosexual people.
Quote: s2dbakerI'm sorry that you were raped by the transgendered or homosexual people. Maybe if you work out a little more, you can fight off those advances.
Would you have given the same advice to Sandusky's targets?
Quote: s2dbakerI'm sorry that you were raped by the transgendered or homosexual people. Maybe if you work out a little more, you can fight off those advances.
Sounds like a personal insult to me.
Quote: djatc
The big problem is having to shower/bathe/bunk with transgendered or homosexual people. At basic our flight had a gay guy and he made many of us uncomfortable
If you go to a gym, you shower with 'those people'. In high school gym class, you showered with 'those people'. How many of 'them' made you feel uncomfortable throughout your life? Can you relate one anecdote from your personal experiences?
Quote: s2dbakerI'm sorry that you were raped by the transgendered or homosexual people. Maybe if you work out a little more, you can fight off those advances.
Quote: djatcSounds like a personal insult to me.
Sounds more like someone who wants to force you to feel that they think you should feel.
You can't have any kind of a discussion with someone like that...
Believe me this is nothing to laugh at.
Oh my!
I didn't think so.
As SOOPOO kindly pointed out, high school gym classes start everyone off earlier than that. They don't put gays/lesbians in separate areas.
Try to find a train back to whatever century you want to live in.
Quote: Beethoven9thAnother tangent & NO answer to the question. Figures. LOL
What a lame diversion. It's doesn't work. And you posted about sugar. You don't know what tangent means I guess. Likewise you don't bother to call out everyone in the thread who is off topic so it's not tangents you actually care about.
I'm sick of excuses.
But let's hear some more. lol
Oh facepalm!
The guy who refuses to answer my question accuses ME of a "diversion"? LOL!Quote: rxwineWhat a lame diversion.
Let me try again...would you let another man shower with your wife? Or your 18-year-old daughter? (I'm actually hoping that you refuse to answer and go off on another tangent so that everyone can see it for themselves) ;)
Quote: Beethoven9thThe guy who refuses to answer my question accuses ME of a "diversion"? LOL!
Let me try again...would you let another man shower with your wife? Or your 18-year-old daughter? (I'm actually hoping that you refuse to answer and go off on another tangent so that everyone can see it for themselves) ;)
You haven't even complied to answering questions I've asked you in the past. You don't follow any system you require of others. Sorry pal.
Homie don't play that.
ALSO DOES ANYONE NEED PROOF BEETHOVEN9TH SOMETIMES AVOIDS ANSWERING QUESTIONS?
ANYONE HERE EVER HAVE A PROBLEM GETTING A STRAIGHT ANSWER FROM BEETHOVEN9TH?
LOL.
Go ahead when ready.
That's obviously not true considering that you're "playing" right now. You make this WAY too easy...lolQuote: rxwineHomie don't play that.
I'll try again.....would you let another man shower with your wife? Or your 18-year-old daughter?
Quote: Beethoven9thThat's obviously not true considering that you're "playing" right now. You make this WAY too easy...lol
I'll try again.....would you let another man shower with your wife? Or your 18-year-old daughter?
No, you can' even get what I said right. You don't play by your own rules of engagement, but expecting others to do it is extremely dishonorable.
Then why do you continually respond to me? You obviously DO want to engage. lolQuote: rxwineNo, you can' even get what I said right. You don't play by your own rules of engagement, but expecting others to do it is extremely dishonorable.
*facepalm*Quote: rxwineIn other words, demanding answers when avoiding and weaseling on your own answers doesn't deserve respect.
Not true in the least, and the fact that you offer no proof is quite telling.
You "don't play", yet you've responded to my posts for over a YEAR now?!? lolQuote: rxwineThat's what you've done in the past, and that's what I don't play.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/11186-decision-2012/203/
So, those are the ethics you practice.
So are you going to deny that you didn't bother to answer and lie straight out?
Quote: rxwineSo are you going to deny that you didn't bother to answer and lie straight out?
Haha...the only example you can come up with is an instance where the questioner already knows the answer himself, yet he just wants to "play along"?? I guess I should have expected such a lame example from you. :D
Sure is. Only it's not mine. ;)Quote: rxwineProof of dishonesty
Quote: rxwineGuy asks for proof, gets it, then pretends it doesn't matter. That's how you play. Everyone sees.
Guy asks for proof. Gets a lame technicality in response, but no real proof. Then other guy pretends it matters. That's how you play. Everyone sees.
Quote: SOOPOOIf you go to a gym, you shower with 'those people'. In high school gym class, you showered with 'those people'. How many of 'them' made you feel uncomfortable throughout your life? Can you relate one anecdote from your personal experiences?
I've been out all day so I apologize I took a while to reply.
The thing about being exposed is that most people don't like it, especially if they are subject to sexual scrutiny. I understand that in school you have to shower with gay people, or transgendered if they are born male, but you can choose not to shower at school, or at a sporting event.
In the military, you don't have a choice as to when you do anything at basic. You're told to do something, and if it's within reason you obey, no questions asked. We have grooming and hygiene standards that must be followed to the letter, and there is no time to do anything beyond reporting being uncomfortable being nude around a homosexual. Like I said in the previous post, our MTI did not have the authority to remove this guy since there was nothing he could do as well. I do not have a problem with somebody's sexual preferences as long as it's legal and doesn't hurt anyone. The problem was that we were forced to become objects of sexuality without our consent. We didn't have a problem with the guy's lifestyle (he was actually in the closet big time, referred to gay people as "fags"), including guys from the South that have different opinions about the LGBT lifestyle.
Little problems like this are going to cause friction within a flight/squadron/unit. Do we really want our troops out in the field having to worry about these things, or fighting for our country? When we start opening the floodgates we must have rules set in place that takes care of issues before they come up.
Quote: steeldcoI believe that I understand your view point. Please correct me if I am wrong. It seems that you are saying that your having formulated an opinion therefore makes your opinion the correct one.
Quote: Beethoveen9thOK, I will correct you since you are wrong. Here's the question I had asked you (the one you never answered): If a person is unsure whether or not 2 + 2 = 4, then is that person more open-minded than somebody who's sure about the answer?
Please answer the question this time.
Quote: steeldcoNo worries. It's kind of a ridiculous question but no worries. Sure that person is open-minded. He would be stating, with an honest opinion, that he is believes that 2+2=4 but is really not sure. I think everyone could live with that. Does that make him intelligent? No. Does that mean everyone who is open-minded is highly intelligent? No. But someone who realizes that they are not always right on complex issues IS more intelligent, or at least has some common sense.
Now answer the question I posed to you. The one that asked whether I am understanding that you feel that your opinion is absolutely correct, just because it is you who formulated it. You feel that you could not possibly made an error.
Quote: Beethoven9thLOL...you still didn't answer the question!! I say it once more. Slowly, this time:
If a person is unsure whether or not 2 + 2 = 4, then is that person more open-minded than somebody who's sure about the answer?
Quote: steeldcoApparently I just answered it in too complex of a manner for you to comprehend. I'll dumb it down for you. Yes. He is more open minded. Please look up the definition of open-minded if you still feel confused.
Quote: BeethovenActually, I think you did a good job of confusing yourself. lol!
So let's see, one person is sure that 2 + 2 = 4, another is unsure.....and you claim that the unsure person is more open-minded, while the sure person is more closed-minded? My god, that is so bizarre.
Anyway, I think I'll let your statement stand for itself and let the readers decide. (Abraham Lincoln's famous quote about "Better to remain silent..." comes to mind)
Quote: steeldcoSounds good. Trying using a dictionary or looking up the meaning of open-minded on the internet. You may find it useful.
Quote: steeldcoBTW beethoven, I earlier had posted a question to you for which you have not responded. Do you care to reply?
Quote: BeethovenNah, we'll just let the readers judge your bizarre statement along with my non-response. I'm confident they'll come to the proper conclusion. ;)
BEETHOVEN ENDS UP NOT ANSWERING QUESTION ASKED BUT WANTS ANSWER TO HIS.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/15564-obamacare-poll-ii/17/
Oh snap, another example where the guy already knows the answer to the question he asks. Each new post of yours keeps getting sillier & sillier. lol :DQuote: rxwineHere's another exchange where B9 asks for answers but doesn't answer the question asked.
Oh snap, more proof Beethoveen.
It's like me saying: "What's 2+2? What's 4+4? What's 8+8? What year is it? What's the name of our country? Does the sun rise up in the morning?"
And after you fail to answer, victoriously crying: "See, you don't answer people's questions! Ha ha ha...ho ho ho...hee hee hee!"
That's basically how you're acting.
+10Quote: djatcThe thing about being exposed is that most people don't like it, especially if they are subject to sexual scrutiny...
The problem was that we were forced to become objects of sexuality without our consent...
Little problems like this are going to cause friction within a flight/squadron/unit. Do we really want our troops out in the field having to worry about these things, or fighting for our country?
Unless someone is willing to let his own wife or his own 18-year-old daughter shower with an unknown man, I really don't know why this whole issue is so hard for some people to understand.
Quote: Beethoven9thOh snap, another example where the guy already knows the answer to the question he asks. Each new post of yours keeps getting sillier & sillier. lol :D
It's like me saying: "What's 2+2? What's 4+4? What's 8+8? What year is it? What's the name of our country? Does the sun rise up in the morning?"
And after you fail to answer, victoriously crying: "See, you don't answer people's questions! Ha ha ha...ho ho ho...hee hee hee!"
That's basically how you're acting.
Keep tap dancing.
So perhaps in the future, the sexes will shower together, but in general they do not now. Gays and straights have showered together for as long as there have been gays and straights. Men and women have not.
But this is the part of the argument I honestly don't get.Quote: SOOPOOGays and straights have showered together for as long as there have been gays and straights. Men and women have not.
I totally agree that men have showered together & women have showered together for ages. So yes, it's tradition. BUT there's another tradition that's been around for just as long—marriage between a man & a woman.
So what I'm wondering is: Why don't we dare touch the "showering" tradition, yet the "marriage" tradition needs to be reversed as fast as humanly possible??
I'm just looking to find some consistency here, yet I don't find any when it comes to gay showering OR gay marriage. Seems like gay supporters all around the country always want to have their cake and eat it too.
Quote: djatc
Little problems like this are going to cause friction within a flight/squadron/unit. Do we really want our troops out in the field having to worry about these things, or fighting for our country? When we start opening the floodgates we must have rules set in place that takes care of issues before they come up.
Oy.
Like SOOPOO, it is more than likely that I've showered with gay men, that I've "been forced to become an object of sexuality without my consent" (makes me giggle XD) If we assume 10% of the population is gay, then I've showered with a gay man approximately 600 times. I may have even turned some gay, as I am a beautiful man (XD) And, as they say on the intertron, not a single #@$% was given.
You know what would bother me as a soldier? To have some radical religious watching my back. Someone who believes everything is the will of God, or that He controls the outcome, or that his life and service is in the name of Him. I would be terrified to think that the man who's there to protect me is leaving his own protection to faith. Talk about a distraction? I'd lose it.
Yet we don't disallow religion in the service. It seems it is rather encouraged. So what? Do we make all sorts of rules and exceptions as to what we will allow and what we will not based on people being "uncomfortable"?
Gimme a break. If you're a soldier, then you're there to do a job and should have the constitution of self to do it no matter the atmosphere. You got guys planting IEDs, friends losing life and limb, projectiles flying at you at 2,000' p/sec,... and you're worried about some guy looking at you naked? We're really having this conversation?
Quote: Beethoven9thBut this is the part of the argument I honestly don't get.
I totally agree that men have showered together & women have showered together for ages. So yes, it's tradition. BUT there's another tradition that's been around for just as long—marriage between a man & a woman.
So what I'm wondering is: Why don't we dare touch the "showering" tradition, yet the "marriage" tradition needs to be reversed as fast as humanly possible??
I'm just looking to find some consistency here, yet I don't find any when it comes to gay showering OR gay marriage. Seems like gay supporters all around the country always want to have their cake and eat it too.
I guess I would answer you this way.... Fortunately, we have evolved enough to allow gay marriage. I'll use me as an example. I would guess a decade ago I would have voted against gay marriage. But I think that having seen enough examples of committed same sex couples, that I now realize that there are more similarities than differences, and that the overall good of allowing them to be happy and legally protected and not ostracized, outweighs my negative visceral feelings towards the actual act of gay sex. I don't see anyone being hurt by continuing the tradition of one gender showering areas, but I do see many being hurt by limiting same sex marriages.
I guess what I don't understand is why djatc (and the others who were with him) should be the subject of ridicule just because he didn't want to be ogled in the showers by a gay guy.Quote: SOOPOOI don't see anyone being hurt by continuing the tradition of one gender showering areas, but I do see many being hurt by limiting same sex marriages.
Here's a hypothetical. Let's say I have an 18-year-old son and an 18-year-old daughter.
Daughter calls one day & says: "Hey dad, a creep who is sexually interested in me was ogling me in the showers!"
And then son calls afterward & says: "Hey dad, a creep who is sexually interested in me was ogling me in the showers!"
I'm really supposed to tell my daughter: "Let's get the creepy bastard!"
...while telling my son: "No biggie, you need to toughen up, kid!"
That doesn't sound like equal treatment to me.
Quote: Beethoven9thI guess what I don't understand is why djatc (and the others who were with him) should be the subject of ridicule just because he didn't want to be ogled in the showers by a gay guy.
Here's a hypothetical. Let's say I have an 18-year-old son and an 18-year-old daughter.
Daughter calls one day & says: "Hey dad, a creep who is sexually interested in me was ogling me in the showers!"
And then son calls afterward & says: "Hey dad, a creep who is sexually interested in me was ogling me in the showers!"
I'm really supposed to tell my daughter: "Let's get the creepy bastard!"
...while telling my son: "No biggie, you need to toughen up, kid!"
That doesn't sound like equal treatment to me.
Where did I say it is ok to be harassed in the showers by anyone? As I have stated before, in my likely thousands of same sex showers, I have never been overtly 'ogled'. If a gay man made inappropriate gestures towards me, it would not be tolerated. I really don't think it is as much a problem, or even potential problem, as you think. I don't know how old you are, or if you play team sports, or work out in a gym, but seriously, have you ever had a gay man make inappropriate comments or advances to you?
Also... can a moderator please split this thread as I see the title is Election 2016. Thank you.
Quote: djatcQuote: boymimboQuote: Beethoven9thCommission Finds ‘No Compelling Medical Reason’ To Exclude Transgender Americans From Military
Seriously, what the heck is going on today? Someone needs to tell libs that the military exists to protect us, not to serve as some silly social experiment.
What does transgender have to do with serving in the military?
The big problem is having to shower/bathe/bunk with transgendered or homosexual people. At basic our flight had a gay guy and he made many of us uncomfortable since we all had 5 minutes to shower as a flight so you really aren't concerned about getting unclothed in front of others, but many people had issues having to be exposed in front of a gay guy who was sexually turned on. The big problem too was we would all feel this way and told our MTI but his hands were tied since the scandal at Lackland just happened and any hint of sexual harassment could jeopardize his job.
As open and accepting as I am this was something that I didn't want a part of. Of course I'd be labeled a bigot for saying these things officially.
I love how certain men have such high opinions of themselves that they believe every gay guy would "want" them
That's because you've showered with guys in the closet, not openly gay guys. AFAIK, none of the straight guys in this thread have showered with any openly gay guys.Quote: SOOPOOAs I have stated before, in my likely thousands of same sex showers, I have never been overtly 'ogled'.
No, but again those guys were in the closet, not openly gay.Quote: SOOPOO...but seriously, have you ever had a gay man make inappropriate comments or advances to you?
Djatc said that it was a problem for him and all the other guys. If my 18-year-old daughter felt the same way about a creep in the showers, I'd never tell her, "It's no big deal."
Oh boy, you again...lol. You just like Twird. Whenever gay issues are discussed, you guys pop up out of nowhere. :DQuote: ams288The problem with this argument is you're conflating marriage with showering.... It's just a flat out stupid comparison.
Oh wow, a personal insult? Keep the personal insults coming. ;)Quote: ams288We've truly gotten to the point in the debate where anti-gay marriage people have got NOTHING left to support their bigotry except dumb comparisons about showering and polygamists...
When you have inconsistent views, there is no connection between anything. Duh!Quote: ams288Hate to break it to you, but there is no connection between who should be able to marry who and who should be able to shower with who at the gym
Quote: Beethoven9thOh wow, a personal insult? Keep the personal insults coming. ;)Quote: ams288We've truly gotten to the point in the debate where anti-gay marriage people have got NOTHING left to support their bigotry except dumb comparisons about showering and polygamists...
You are absolutely bigoted against gays. You said two men kissing is "disgusting."
I don't consider that to be a personal insult, and I will not take it back or apologize for it.
Quote: Beethoven9thThat's because you've showered with guys in the closet, not openly gay guys. AFAIK, none of the straight guys in this thread have showered with any openly gay guys.
No, but again those guys were in the closet, not openly gay.
WHOA, this is truly hilarious.
You're confusing openly gay vs. closeted with discreet vs. highly effeminate/obviously gay. Just because you can't tell a guy is gay by looking at him doesn't mean he's closeted. lol
I'm sure in all of his same sex showers, SOOPOO has showered with some "openly gay" men. Had he asked them, "are you gay?" they would have responded "yes." But why on earth would anyone ask that to another guy in a public shower?
*facepalm*
Quote: ams288You are absolutely bigoted against gays
A personal insult now? Tsk tsk!
Why must you resort to insults????
Quote: Beethoven9thA personal insult now? Tsk tsk!
Why must you resort to insults????
Typical beethoven9th circular conversation:
Me: You're bigoted against gays
B9: Why resort to personal insults?
Me: It's not a personal insult, here's why I think you're bigoted against gays:
B9: Why resort to personal insults?
and THIS is why:
Quote: Beethoven9thSo true. It makes me want to vomit. It's frustrating too because one time I made such a comment, and one of my liberal friends told me that it was kind of a bigoted thing to say.
I was like....WTF???? How the hell is it bigoted if I find 2 guys kissing to be disgusting?!
Sorry, but that's one of the most bigoted posts I've ever read on a a heavily moderated discussion board.
Quote: ams288Typical beethoven9th circular conversation:
Me: You're bigoted against gays
B9: Why resort to personal insults?
Me: It's not a personal insult, here's why I think you're bigoted against gays:
B9: Why resort to personal insults?
Typical ams288 conversation:
Me: I oppose gay marriage
ams: You're a bigot!
Me: I oppose repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell
ams: You're a bigot!
Me: I find certain types of behavior to be disgusting.
ams: You're a bigot!
Whatever. So can I call you a bigot for disagreeing with my beliefs?
Quote: Beethoven9thTypical ams288 conversation:
Me: I oppose gay marriage
ams: You're a bigot!
Me: I oppose repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell
ams: You're a bigot!
Me: I find certain types of behavior to be disgusting.
ams: You're a bigot!
Whatever. So can I call you a bigot for disagreeing with my beliefs?
Nope, not for disagreeing with bigoted beliefs.
Definition of bigotry:
Quote:Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's opinion, ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.
I think your post successfully satisfied the definition, and therefore it was NOT a personal insult. Sorry. :)
