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terapined
terapined
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November 20th, 2015 at 3:05:25 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

Liberals always say people who don't want the same things as they do "don't care about ________"...most of the time, it is a lie to make themselves feel good. Caring about something does not mean agreement with every idea put forth by the other side of the political aisle--it means wanting to do something about the issue.

Gun control has not worked very well in Chicago. You can make a statement that it "may" have saved one person or more, you are asking the other side to prove it didn't save "someone." That, of course, is impossible. The truth is there is gun control in Chicago and it has a high gun violence rate. Maryland has tough gun control laws, yet Baltimore is setting high numbers for murders.

A solution that considers our rights under the Constitution AND helps slow/stop gun violence may be to enhance sentencing for gun crimes. Long terms for use of a gun in the commission of a crime and even longer ones if the gun is discharged.

Just taking something away from law-abiding citizens is not the way to fix criminals.



I look at Japan and the UK
They don't have the murder rates we have
It works
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
Face
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Face
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November 20th, 2015 at 3:32:28 PM permalink
Quote: RonC


Remember, of course, that these ARE NOT citizens or residents of the United States and they are not subject to our Constitution--that is, they can be considered as suspect until proven not to be...and should be.



I was reading one day and I came upon this...

Quote: Some Important Men


We hold these truths to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.



Is this a Truth, or is it just a truth?

I view such things as Truth. I know it's just my opinion, but a lot of the things in the screeds of our history are things I find to be independent of said screeds. If you and I hop into a DeLorean and set our sights on 965 AD, I will find the above True despite there having been no man yet who had spoke the words. Said screeds are important, certainly, but I feel the ideas within transcend documentation.

Does a person not have the right to a fair trial, not have the right to gather in peace, not have the right to worship the diety(ies) of their choice, simply based on whether they reside in a land with a certain document? I don't believe that. If you're telling me legal fact based on my previous post, I thank you for the knowledge. But if that's opinion, I disagree.

That doesn't mean I'm above questioning. Hell, I'm American by birth and by blood, protected by Truths and truths alike, but I still get stopped by NYSP / RCMP / border patrol / Coast Guard to be vetted. I don't find that an assault on my rights. Question away. Question me, question them. Vet and verify, whatever you have to do. But something about "Not American = not eligible to Rights" seems to me a creation of an underclass that I wouldn't be so quick to accept.
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Face
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Face
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November 20th, 2015 at 3:38:16 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

I look at Japan and the UK
They don't have the murder rates we have
It works



Why use examples with so many variables? Wouldn't it be nice to have an example with controls? You know, same culture, same customs, same way of life, to get an honest and accurate read?

Oh yeah, RonC did that.
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RonC
RonC
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November 20th, 2015 at 4:07:41 PM permalink
Quote: Face

I was reading one day and I came upon this...



Is this a Truth, or is it just a truth?

I view such things as Truth. I know it's just my opinion, but a lot of the things in the screeds of our history are things I find to be independent of said screeds. If you and I hop into a DeLorean and set our sights on 965 AD, I will find the above True despite there having been no man yet who had spoke the words. Said screeds are important, certainly, but I feel the ideas within transcend documentation.

Does a person not have the right to a fair trial, not have the right to gather in peace, not have the right to worship the diety(ies) of their choice, simply based on whether they reside in a land with a certain document? I don't believe that. If you're telling me legal fact based on my previous post, I thank you for the knowledge. But if that's opinion, I disagree.

That doesn't mean I'm above questioning. Hell, I'm American by birth and by blood, protected by Truths and truths alike, but I still get stopped by NYSP / RCMP / border patrol / Coast Guard to be vetted. I don't find that an assault on my rights. Question away. Question me, question them. Vet and verify, whatever you have to do. But something about "Not American = not eligible to Rights" seems to me a creation of an underclass that I wouldn't be so quick to accept.



The laws of our country dictate who can enter our country. Once they are in, they should have the full protection of the Constitution as it relates to their status as residents (or whatever their legal status is).

On your larger point, which is beyond the laws of this country, perhaps they do have those 'rights"...but they need to fight to make sure their government understands that they have them just as the people who founded our country did. The freedoms we have aren't free at all...

I would say give them guns, turn them back into Syria, and let them fight for freedom if they desire that. Help them where they are if that is what they desire. if they want to come here, then follow the process...and the process should protect you and I (not the government, the people).

From a philosophical standpoint, perhaps everyone should be allowed to go everywhere...
waasnoday
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November 20th, 2015 at 4:12:35 PM permalink
Quote: Face

I was reading one day and I came upon this...



Is this a Truth, or is it just a truth?

I view such things as Truth. I know it's just my opinion, but a lot of the things in the screeds of our history are things I find to be independent of said screeds. If you and I hop into a DeLorean and set our sights on 965 AD, I will find the above True despite there having been no man yet who had spoke the words. Said screeds are important, certainly, but I feel the ideas within transcend documentation.

Does a person not have the right to a fair trial, not have the right to gather in peace, not have the right to worship the diety(ies) of their choice, simply based on whether they reside in a land with a certain document? I don't believe that. If you're telling me legal fact based on my previous post, I thank you for the knowledge. But if that's opinion, I disagree.

That doesn't mean I'm above questioning. Hell, I'm American by birth and by blood, protected by Truths and truths alike, but I still get stopped by NYSP / RCMP / border patrol / Coast Guard to be vetted. I don't find that an assault on my rights. Question away. Question me, question them. Vet and verify, whatever you have to do. But something about "Not American = not eligible to Rights" seems to me a creation of an underclass that I wouldn't be so quick to accept.



Thank you. +100. These are ideals are exactly what made this nation great. We loose these and we are no longer the nation we espouse ourselves to be. What Mr. Trump has stated recently regarding the registration of people who are citizens of this country is abhorrent. History has shown us where this path leads and it is not a road that should be traveled.
Face
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Face
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November 20th, 2015 at 4:42:14 PM permalink
Quote: RonC


On your larger point, which is beyond the laws of this country, perhaps they do have those 'rights"...but they need to fight to make sure their government understands that they have them just as the people who founded our country did. The freedoms we have aren't free at all...

I would say give them guns, turn them back into Syria, and let them fight for freedom if they desire that. Help them where they are if that is what they desire. if they want to come here, then follow the process...and the process should protect you and I (not the government, the people).



And into the rabbit hole we go...

This fits the beliefs I hold to myself. It's a lot like the welfare argument. I'm all for "help", but damn you if you think I'm just gonna give you stuff. I'll teach you to roof, to weld, to cook, to clean, to serve, to observe, or whatever skill that will set you on your way so YOU can do. But I'm not going to do myself just so you can take. So yes, I'm not going to come over or send my friends and family over to die in your stead, just so you can get the same thing that we already paid for. I'm not down with that. But if you just need "help", a foundation, to get started, sure.

But then again... aren't a lot of our friends and family over somewhere hot and dry, having pot shots being taken at them using weapons and training we supplied to those taking the shots?

Hell, man, I just don't know. But at the risk of breaking a lot of brains as they find the right wing gun nut is really an oozing bleeding heart, I find less mental anguish at the thought of one slipping through and hitting us here than I do us refusing and increasing the numbers in a slaughter. There's just something about it. Maybe it's the finality of it all. If I let them in and it goes wrong, there's still stuff to do. I am a man, I am strong, I am intelligent, I have guns. My feeding hand has been bit before, and I got over it. It made me a better person because of it. But if I just say no, then that's that. There is no coming back from that.

Maybe it's foolish and I am destined to become a perpetual victim, but I don't think my spirit can afford to give up on people. My grasp on righteousness is too tenuous as it is.
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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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November 20th, 2015 at 5:45:07 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

....

So if we need to have a registry to attempt to keep track of people to be as sure as we can that the bad guys aren't infiltrating the good Muslims, that's a sacrifice of privacy that has to be accepted. We are at war and sacrifices have to be made, even at the expense of some personal freedoms that this country is based on.



No. Just no. Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I'm with Ben on this.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
kewlj
kewlj
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November 20th, 2015 at 6:02:31 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

No. Just no. Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I'm with Ben on this.



I hear ya Babs. I really do. But, the show I watched the other night on PBS where a reporter was allowed into an extremist terrorist camp for a couple days is still fresh in my mind. It showed boys as young as 4 years old going about their daily training to be suicide bombers. The reporter spoke with other boys a bit older, 14 or 15 who, spoke of impatiently waiting for the day when they are called to kill as many non-believers as they can. They spoke of this like an American 14 year old would speak of impatiently waiting for Christmas.

It would be bad enough if these young boys were preparing for battle on the battlefield. But they are not. This isn't a traditional war. They are preparing to murder as many US civilians as they can in places like New York City, Austin, Texas, even my Las Vegas, as well as smaller cities and towns across the US.

Our forefathers provided a blueprint based on their vision at the time. But they could have no idea of what we are now facing. As I said earlier, this enemy isn't playing by the rules. The gloves are off. We have to defend ourselves and win this thing at all costs and if we have to temporarily sacrifice some freedoms to do so, then so be it. Just like the airport procedures after 911. Things change. Inconveniences in the name of safety. Our brave servicemen and women are willing to risk their lives defending this country. Surely the rest of us can temporarily make some small sacrifices.
rxwine
rxwine
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November 20th, 2015 at 6:27:48 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

But, the show I watched the other night on PBS where a reporter was allowed into an extremist terrorist camp for a couple days is still fresh in my mind.



Saw the same show

Quote:

Our forefathers provided a blueprint based on their vision at the time. But they could have no idea of what we are now facing.



Unlikely, unless they never had a history lesson. Using of children and barbarism would be no new concept to the educated among them.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
SanchoPanza
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November 20th, 2015 at 7:51:55 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Using of children and barbarism would be no new concept to the educated among them.

Correct. But the barbarism was restricted, thanks to the lack of technology, to areas like the North African coast or Asia Minor. And not around the globe and into our own cities and backyards.

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