lojo
lojo
Joined: Jun 24, 2013
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September 21st, 2013 at 9:04:26 PM permalink
@AZDuffman
Yeah we will have to agree to disagree. But you really should know a little something about a subject like the Affordable Care Act before spewing such nonsense. If a person does not purchase insurance or is not otherwise covered (and it is affordable, btw with accelerated tax credits paying most of the bill for most people monthly) you DO NOT go to prison, nor are there any death panels, you might as well have thrown that in there. What happens is you will be fined/taxed (up to 1% of your income the first year or $95 whichever is most and that raises to 2.5% in 2015). That penalty is levied on your federal income tax and the only way they can ever collect it is to nick a tax return, they can't garnish wages, sue you in court, no other vehicle is provided to collect the penalty other than taking it out of a tax return.

Quote:

It will do as intended. Whip up support against the law; put senators on record as supporting it; and show the >50% who want it repealed that they have a choice.


No, it will divide your party and cause the end of their ability to hold the nation hostage again. Dems will retain control of the Senate and regain control of the House in 2014 because the nestea buggers have destroyed the Republican party's credibility. kaput, finito, donesville.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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September 22nd, 2013 at 5:10:25 AM permalink
Quote: lojo

@AZDuffman
Yeah we will have to agree to disagree. But you really should know a little something about a subject like the Affordable Care Act before spewing such nonsense. If a person does not purchase insurance or is not otherwise covered (and it is affordable, btw with accelerated tax credits paying most of the bill for most people monthly) you DO NOT go to prison, nor are there any death panels, you might as well have thrown that in there. What happens is you will be fined/taxed (up to 1% of your income the first year or $95 whichever is most and that raises to 2.5% in 2015). That penalty is levied on your federal income tax and the only way they can ever collect it is to nick a tax return, they can't garnish wages, sue you in court, no other vehicle is provided to collect the penalty other than taking it out of a tax return.



And if I keep refusing to pay the fine then what? You will eventually go to prison for failure to pay taxes. BTW: I thought Obama said if I paid less than $250K per year I would not get a tax increase? But heck, people believed him when he said if you liked your current plan you could keep it.

Quote:

No, it will divide your party and cause the end of their ability to hold the nation hostage again. Dems will retain control of the Senate and regain control of the House in 2014 because the nestea buggers have destroyed the Republican party's credibility. kaput, finito, donesville.



Hold the nation hostage? What on earth does that mean? I guess you think debate on an issue and not just going along with Obama is holding the nation hostage?

As to dividing the GOP, let it happen. The GOP currently has a Tea Party wing, who prefer freedom and smaller government, and a RINO/Country Club wing who want to be Democrat-Party Lite. Those who dislike the Tea Party rarely can articulate a reason they do or a Tea Party tenant that they are against so they resort to name-calling. But the Tea Party has given the GOP the most energy it has had in decades. The movement should grow as people see what freedoms they are losing.

And the biggest surprise will happen when Obama voters realize their "free" health care is not free. The unions seem to already be realizing they really screwed themselves there. Young workers will probably be next when they see how much of their cash they need to put to a plan that is not the best for them. The base that refuses to work will probably not mind.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
boymimbo
boymimbo
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September 22nd, 2013 at 5:43:52 AM permalink
I hate to agree with AZ, but I will for different reasons. The Affordable Health Care act doesn't go far enough to socialize medicine. Obamacare is a bandaid solution reached on shitty comprimises that forces employers and Americans to purchase health insurance at market rates without any controls or measures (besides competition) to make the cost of health care go down. There are plenty of loopholes.

Instead, the government intends to drive down insurance rates by taking out the profit and forcing health insurers to lower rates to compete, but whether its own wages and wastes will be able to do that is the big question here. About half of the US feels that that is a bad idea, and I think it is too.

What I think should have happened was for the US to go down the big bang route and completely socialize medicine. Tell the American public that this is the new way to take care of Americans going forward and that your insurance premiums are going away and being replaced by corporate and personal taxes, but that you will be covered. Government can then institute preventional policies, national buying programs, and lower pay rates for doctors and health professionals to drive down the cost of delivering health care.

There are plenty of examples around the globe that aren't perfect but work. Every western country has socialized medicine and are not commie republics, believe it or not.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
treetopbuddy
treetopbuddy
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September 22nd, 2013 at 5:46:30 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I hate to agree with AZ, but I will for different reasons. The Affordable Health Care act doesn't go far enough to socialize medicine. Obamacare is a bandaid solution reached on shitty comprimises that forces employers and Americans to purchase health insurance at market rates without any controls or measures (besides competition) to make the cost of health care go down. There are plenty of loopholes.

Instead, the government intends to drive down insurance rates by taking out the profit and forcing health insurers to lower rates to compete, but whether its own wages and wastes will be able to do that is the big question here. About half of the US feels that that is a bad idea, and I think it is too.

What I think should have happened was for the US to go down the big bang route and completely socialize medicine. Tell the American public that this is the new way to take care of Americans going forward and that your insurance premiums are going away and being replaced by corporate and personal taxes, but that you will be covered. Government can then institute preventional policies, national buying programs, and lower pay rates for doctors and health professionals to drive down the cost of delivering health care.

There are plenty of examples around the globe that aren't perfect but work. Every western country has socialized medicine and are not commie republics, believe it or not.



facepalm
Each day is better than the next
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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September 22nd, 2013 at 5:59:02 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo


What I think should have happened was for the US to go down the big bang route and completely socialize medicine. Tell the American public that this is the new way to take care of Americans going forward and that your insurance premiums are going away and being replaced by corporate and personal taxes, but that you will be covered. Government can then institute preventional policies, national buying programs, and lower pay rates for doctors and health professionals to drive down the cost of delivering health care.



Heck, we should do that for food and housing then. No more profit for those greedy farmers! No more profit for those greedy landlords! Profit is so evil!

Socialism worked so well in the Soviet Bloc, we need to emulate it.

Why do people think that Doctors should not make a good living and health providers should not make a profit?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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September 22nd, 2013 at 6:05:54 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

.

Why do people think that Doctors should not make a good living and health providers should not make a profit?



I don't think either of those things. However, the following things need to happen, and many of them do under Obamacare:

1. Coverage available for individuals at pool rates.
2. Tort reform so that doctors only order tests that are needed, not tests that some judge might need to see 5 years from then to ensure that all possibilities, no matter how remote, were examined.
3. Health care administrative costs for Medicare are less than 2% of the cost of the program; eliminate the 20-40% tacked on by private insurers by setting a profit cap.
4. Extended coverage for children in college, children with lifetime conditions too severe for them ever to leave their parents' care.
5. Do not allow exclusions for pre-existing conditions.
6. Low cost preventative care to eliminate expensive emergency room visits the rest of us end up paying for.
etc..
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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September 22nd, 2013 at 6:49:56 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I don't think either of those things. However, the following things need to happen, and many of them do under Obamacare:

1. Coverage available for individuals at pool rates.
2. Tort reform so that doctors only order tests that are needed, not tests that some judge might need to see 5 years from then to ensure that all possibilities, no matter how remote, were examined.



I agree here, though we don't need a huge law to get the pool rates. Just make it easier to form pools.

Quote:

3. Health care administrative costs for Medicare are less than 2% of the cost of the program; eliminate the 20-40% tacked on by private insurers by setting a profit cap.



NO WAY to any profit caps. Period. Let insurers sell across state lines, and if you do not like the price purchase from someone else. When you buy a product or service "their profit" should not matter to you, all that should matter is the price to pay whether their margin is 1% or 100%.

Quote:

4. Extended coverage for children in college, children with lifetime conditions too severe for them ever to leave their parents' care.



As long as someone is paying for it themselves and not forcing their employer to do so by law.

Quote:

5. Do not allow exclusions for pre-existing conditions.



This could be handled via an assigned-risk pool. But it is unfair to expect the insurance company to sell at a loss to these people. Also make there be an open-enrollment period for the industry. If you have a condition and miss that, well too bad.

Quote:

6. Low cost preventative care to eliminate expensive emergency room visits the rest of us end up paying for.
etc..



We already have this. Problem is people think "low cost" is supposed to mean FREE<=LOW COST<$10. Sorry, but a doctor's visit is going to cost $50-100. What we need is high-deducible plans with a HSA component. That way you have the "preventative care" money saved and the penalty is on *you* first if you do not get such care. Same as auto insurance, your reward is lower rates for you.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
boymimbo
boymimbo
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September 22nd, 2013 at 9:42:21 PM permalink
Socialized medicine works very very well in the rest of the world. US Healthcare ranks below most westernized countries by any standard. Doctors in countries with socialized medicine make very good money, not as much as those in the USA, but something very commensurate with their extra years of medical school should and would provide.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
boymimbo
boymimbo
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September 22nd, 2013 at 9:48:31 PM permalink
Auto insurance is quite different than health insurance, don't you think. You're not born owning a Yugo after all and having to take care of it for life. Some people are born with a high propensity to get sick. Some people are born with a condition that will affect them for life. Yet because of a personal responsibilty that is absolutely no fault of their own, they're stuck with the burden of having to pay inordinate amounts of money for the opportunity to live the same life we all do.

Generous societies recognize this and create a level playing field by providing health care at low costs to their citizens that benefits the entire society as a whole. They recognize that some people are just not healthy. They recognize that sick people are unable to work and therefore can't afford to pay medical bills on their own. They have the ability to see trends and institute policies that promote health. I will purport that if there is one area that governments should get involved in, it's the health of their citizens.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
lojo
lojo
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September 23rd, 2013 at 7:52:17 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

And if I keep refusing to pay the fine then what? You will eventually go to prison for failure to pay taxes. BTW: I thought Obama said if I paid less than $250K per year I would not get a tax increase? But heck, people believed him when he said if you liked your current plan you could keep it.



Hold the nation hostage? What on earth does that mean? I guess you think debate on an issue and not just going along with Obama is holding the nation hostage?

As to dividing the GOP, let it happen. The GOP currently has a Tea Party wing, who prefer freedom and smaller government, and a RINO/Country Club wing who want to be Democrat-Party Lite. Those who dislike the Tea Party rarely can articulate a reason they do or a Tea Party tenant that they are against so they resort to name-calling. But the Tea Party has given the GOP the most energy it has had in decades. The movement should grow as people see what freedoms they are losing.

And the biggest surprise will happen when Obama voters realize their "free" health care is not free. The unions seem to already be realizing they really screwed themselves there. Young workers will probably be next when they see how much of their cash they need to put to a plan that is not the best for them. The base that refuses to work will probably not mind.



Dude, maybe you are simply misinformed, and that's okay. Most people against the care act are. I'll do my best to let you know what's up, but it's a really pagey law - thanks to insurance lobbies and the folks who defend them. I will never go to prison for refusing to buy insurance, there are specific provisions in law and code. It can only be collected from taxes. Pay your other taxes and nothing can happen. As for Obama saying it wasn't going to be a tax, what do constitutional lawyers like him know when it comes to a Supreme Court who will do what they may?

The tea partisan needs to ditch the publicans or they will make them irrelevant. Who wouldn't go for what 'they' originally propsed? They were co-opted by the likes of heritage and Kochs since norquist (can we call treason on a Member who takes the Norquist pledge more seriously than their COnstitional pledge?)

Yeah, the unions wanted an bye, just like a lot of others got. It is in the law. It might not be right and it might not be fair to get an exemption but there is a good economic development reason for each one granted - or there was trade off to get it passed. The law will survive.

There is no base that refuses to work, is there? This is America, we like to work.

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