favorite domestic airline

Quote: terapined

You read my Columbus to Detroit to Tokyo vs Detroit to Tokyo example? Its convoluted pricing but I thought the explanation was logical.

Airlines view everything as city pairs regardless of connection or nonstop. Omaha to Vegas is one city pair with a set price. KC to Las is another city pair. with a different price. If you buy a Omaha to KC to LAS ticket. Airlines view it simply as a Oma to Las city pair ticket. Say you call the airline and want to make a change using less of there service, not flying Omaha to KC, and simply boarding the plane in KC to Las. Will the airlines cut you a break for using less of their services. Of course not. You changed the city pair from Omaha/LAS to KC/LAS. Due to city pair change, Major airline would charge 200 plus difference in fare just to use less service.

Your explanation was logical, the process is illogical. I understand that if you are going to send a plane from Point A to Point B that the costs involved in having a couple extra passengers are somewhat negligible, as your main costs are going to be the fuel, staffing and upkeep. A couple of extra passengers don't really cost that much extra money.

However, the extra flyers that do not necessarily have to be on that plane must cost something! I just don't understand why they would charge you less to take two flights when you (the passenger) are costing them more money by doing so. Not only are they charging less for the tickets, plural, but they also incur the added expense of having two extra flyers who are perfectly happy to just drive to the other airport and take the same flight (as the connecting flight) for the same price or less.

That basically sums up my opinion, this city-pairing crap is fundamentally stupid in those situations in which the airline costs itself more money to take the passenger to the destination, even ignoring the fact that the price is lower.

This is what I want to know: If the airline were to say, "Sure, you want to drive down to Kansas City, you want to leave from Kansas City? No problem, same price as the route where you take the connecting flight." With less expenses and the same price, how do they not make more money?

Quote: beachbumbabs

(Edit) looks like terapined addressed this same thing; you can check pricing by airline for change fees. Some allow no-fee changes, some price per RT, others price per leg. There's an edge to be worked sometimes, other times you just grit your teeth and go.

I'm just going to grit my teeth and go, I think I already have the best price I'm likely to get. It's just the fact that the process is fundamentally economically nonsensical and generates a higher cost and less profit margin for the operator that I can't get my head around.

Quote: Mission146

Your explanation was logical, the process is illogical. I understand that if you are going to send a plane from Point A to Point B that the costs involved in having a couple extra passengers are somewhat negligible, as your main costs are going to be the fuel, staffing and upkeep. A couple of extra passengers don't really cost that much extra money.

The airlines have rarely had pricing that makes sense.

Example #1: When I was transferred to Albany I had to go back to Pittsburgh to get my second car. Company agreed to pay for it. A one-way ALB-PIT was more expensive than a roundtrip. So we just threw away the return leg.

Example #2: I considered teaching english in Japan. Same deal, one way was more than the round trip! Had I gone my plan was to just make the return trip 364 days later and pay to change the fare.

Example #3: Until the mid 1990s you paid up to >100% more for a ticket if you did not have your trip extend over a saturday night. Business travelers who regularly flew to the same place would "nest" trips and fly leg one PIT-LAV on monday then leg one LAV-PIT that friday. Then the next week use the return ticket LAV-PIT to go out and finally the return ticket for the first ticket the last trip back. To make matters worse, if the airline caught you doing this they could supposedly cancel everything!

Southwest. It's the only airline I've flown since 9/11. There are only two airlines available at my home port (ECP), Delta and Southwest. Both require at least one stop to LAS. Prices are usually about the same, of course, with Delta you have to add the baggage fee. If I ever get a chance to travel with carry on only, it's a coin toss.

BTW, Where's my "I'm a bigot" option?

Quote: terapined

If you don't show up for any part of your ticket, everything downline gets cancled. If Mission was doing OMA to MCI to LAS and Back home LAS to MCI to OMA.
If he did not show up in OMA and decided to board in MCI, not possible, once you noshow in OMA, everything downline gets cancled. If on the way home, he switches planes in MCI and decides that's it and not get on MCI to OMA, that is doable.

Good clarification, terapined. Thanks.

It's not as simple as competition. SW does not use the same pricing model as anyone else and that's why you can't book SW tickets on anything but SW, but Sabre's got the city pairs and what SW charges in their database for competitive purposes. That's why, with Southwest, a non-stop will cost the same as a connection.

For example, for business, we are looking at a flight on United from AUS to IAD the afternoon of November 8, one way.

The direct flight on United is $892. That's the flight I need to take. The one stop price is $212 on US with stops in CLT. Similarly if I want to go to Ohare the price is $369 non stop or $230 through Charlotte. That's because there is competition to O'Hare with American.

Similarly if I wanted him to go to Toronto via the same UA flight through IAD it's $388.

It's because United owns the Austin to IAD flight. No other airline flies it. So the airline charges whatever it can for it.

Quote: Mission146

Airline Question
I start thinking about it, though, and I say, "Well, Kansas City's not that much of a drive, perhaps I could save money by driving to Kansas City and just taking the flight directly to Vegas from there, after all, one flight is certainly less than two."

I get on-line and look at the price for the same exact flight going from Kansas City to Las Vegas, only to find that the flight...and there'd only be one...is 20% MORE than flying out of Omaha and grabbing the connecting flight in Kansas City.

I know that there must be a reason that this makes sense. What is it? I certainly can't figure it out. It seems like you are paying less to take two flights.

Actually, what you are talking about is fairly common. Only a small portion of airline fares is driven by the cost of the flight. Non stops generally command a premium for their convenience. As a result a connecting flight is often cheaper than just one of it's segments.

I know one guy who wanted to get off at a connecting city on his return flight. He asked would they care if he had no checked bags and simply left the plane. The airline threatened him with legal action if he tried to do that. He did it anyway.

Quote: pacomartin

I know one guy who wanted to get off at a connecting city on his return flight. He asked would they care if he had no checked bags and simply left the plane. The airline threatened him with legal action if he tried to do that. He did it anyway.

The most they could probably do is cancel what was left of any ticket he had and pull his frequent flier miles. This is another old trick but you can only do it on your way back.

Quote: pacomartin

I know one guy who wanted to get off at a connecting city on his return flight. He asked would they care if he had no checked bags and simply left the plane. The airline threatened him with legal action if he tried to do that. He did it anyway.

Its extremely rare but the airlines do have recourse depending on how you bought your ticket. If you bought directly from an airline, they really can't do anything. If bought through a travel agency and most tickets are sold by agencies handling corporate travel, they can send whats known as a debit memo to the agency. This is breaking airline rules, hidden city trick. Airlines send debit memos to agencies for mistakes made issuing tickets. For an agency issuing and changing thousands of tickets a day, debit memos are somewhat common. Mistakes happen. If an agency gets a debit memo due to passenger breaking airline rules, the agency simply charges the corporate client for the penalty.

In 2000 I had to go to London for the gaming show and had a roundtrip ticket Las Vegas to London with a layover in Atlanta on Delta. My plan was to just abandon the last leg from ATL-LAS because the Super Bowl was in Atlanta that weekend and I had free tickets to it. The "Karma" was against me for trying to do that. There was a huge ice and ice storm over Atlanta and my flight from London was cancelled. I eventually got on a flight to Cincinatti but Delta wouldn't route me through Atlanta and booked me from Cincy to Las Vegas. I tried everything to get to Atlanta including trying to rent a car and drive there from Cincy. All to no avail. I ended up watching the Super Bowl at home and kept pointing at my two empty seats every time they scanned the audience.

The point of this post is: Don't screw with Delta, they apparently control the weather to punish abusers.

I've not got on my final stage of a flight, a short hop home, and spent the day visiting before catching a coach home. Air Canada didn't care much, but insisted I just don't check in, rather than cancel in advance... not showing up for a flight was deemed much less of an offence than cancelling a connection...

I've also once tried to get off on the way out... not such a good idea... was told if I didn't take the complete flight out, my ticket would be cancelled for the return... my actual final destination was Vancouver, but had got a flight to Seattle. I flew London-Vancouver, then Vancouver-Seattle. Spent two days in Seattle and caught the train back to Van. Worked out for the best in the end, saw a new city and really enjoyed the journey back up.

Quote: DRich

In 2000 I had to go to London for the gaming show and had a roundtrip ticket Las Vegas to London with a layover in Atlanta on Delta. My plan was to just abandon the last leg from ATL-LAS because the Super Bowl was in Atlanta that weekend and I had free tickets to it. The "Karma" was against me for trying to do that. There was a huge ice and ice storm over Atlanta and my flight from London was cancelled. I eventually got on a flight to Cincinatti but Delta wouldn't route me through Atlanta and booked me from Cincy to Las Vegas. I tried everything to get to Atlanta including trying to rent a car and drive there from Cincy. All to no avail. I ended up watching the Super Bowl at home and kept pointing at my two empty seats every time they scanned the audience.

Even with the SB it is amazing you couldn't get to ATL. I always tried to avoid it to mixed results.

"When you die you may go to heaven and you may end up in hell, but if you live in the east your connection will be in ATL."---unknown

Quote: terapined

Airlines view everything as city pairs regardless of connection or nonstop.

In my experience, the nonstop ticket is usually more expensive. Not always, but most of the time.

Of course if your goal is to rack up frequent flier miles, the flight with a layover is sometimes worth it.

Quote: Mission146

How the heck do airlines determine how much they are going to charge?

A one-way flight on December 29, 2013 from San Francisco to Tokyo, Japan on United Airlines: $609. Distance: 5,110 miles.

A one-way flight on December 29, 2013 from San Francisco to Monterey, California on United Airlines: $758. Distance: 76 miles.

(And if I'm not mistaken, the Tokyo flight includes 1 free checked bag and a free meal.)

*********************

It's not just airline pricing that's crazy. Hotel prices can be crazy, too. Consider the following:

Expedia is selling rooms at Flamingo on November 7, 2013 for $269 per night. Same date, same travel agency: Mandarian Oriental for $245, Four Seasons for $239, Venetian/Palazzo for $219, Aria for $199. (Gee, I can't decide whether to get the spacious 720 square foot room at Palazzo, or spend $50 more for the cozy 350 square foot room at Flamingo.)

But at least Flamingo is cheaper than Harrah's Las Vegas, which has November 7 going for $286 on Expedia.

Quote: AZDuffman

Southworst built their business by avoiding hubs altogether.

That used to be the case, but it is no longer true. Southwest currently has 200 daily flights in and out of Las Vegas. It has 156 daily flights in and out of Houston. The airline also accounts for 70 percent of the air traffic in and out of Baltimore.

Quote: SanchoPanza

It might be advisable to check Southwest, where I found this PHL-LAS flight:

Depart Arrive Flight # Routing Travel Time Business Select $566 - $577 Anytime $538 - $549 Wanna Get Away
7:50 AM 10:25 AM 234 Nonstop 5h 35m $566 $538

and its mirror-image companion:

2:30 PM 10:10 PM 4450 Nonstop 4h 40m $566 $538

Two flights that more than coincidentally I am taking around Christmas week. (And at a much different fare.)

I just checked SW for a PHL to LAS flight for Jan. 17 and the 510pm flight is 75 bucks.

Well the only airline I have flown in the US is DELTA and they have been very good to me.

For example I just booked my flight out of Vegas to Detroit before Christmas for $129 one way RED EYE direct great price to me


Next I needed to book Windsor area back to Calgary just before the New Year... Air (RIP OFF) Canada was willing to take me home for as little as $654 so I checked what DELTA could do out of Detroit.... $349 ... the LONG WAY home ... a few extra hours and one extra airport but hey for $300 or so a few hours (3) would not kill me

But wait... email arrives two days later DELTA has changed my ITINERARY ... instead of what I booked cheap DET >MEM>SALTLAKE>CALGARY they have booked me on a flight leaving 30 minutes later than I was planning on flying out but getting me into Calgary 3 hours earlier.... all for the same cheap price

But there was one small issue I had spent the extra money for COMFORT seating( 4" more leg room) and they had me now in economy seats... just finished calling the 800 number supplied with the notice of flight changes and was really impressed with the service...... on ring TWO I was talking to a live agent... yes RING TWO . Told her the problem and within 3 or 4 minutes my roomy seats were taken care of on my new flights

This service will get them future business from me

Quote: coilman

Well the only airline I have flown in the US is DELTA and they have been very good to me.

Speaking of Delta, many of their most loyal customers are speaking out about their Delta's drastic decision to gut SkyMiles, their frequent flier program.

Quote: reno

Speaking of Delta, many of their most loyal customers are speaking out about their Delta's drastic decision to gut SkyMiles, their frequent flier program.

In fairness to Delta their goal with that change is to reward the people paying the most for their tickets (and as a result their favorite customers). They didn't make 2.1 billion dollars in profit last year by being dumb.

Also in a moment of irony the site describing the new change to sky miles and decrying it had an ad for the new delta sky miles amex when I went.

Am I the only one who noticed a suspicious lack of votes for American?

My wife and I caught a puddle-jumper from CMH to JFK in 2012 on our way to FCO. (Rome, for the uninitiated - and let's just say we try to avoid JFK at all costs going forward.) We got amazing service on the flight from JFK to FCO both ways, including plenty of free beer. But on the way back from JFK to CMH, we encountered some of the rudest flight attendants I have ever seen. We had medical equipment in a carry-on bag that we wanted to keep an eye on, and the flight attendant refused to let us take it back with us and gave us attitude about it. It wouldn't be an issue on any plane that didn't sound like it was being held together with rubber bands and duct tape and that I wasn't nearly certain that passengers would be asked at 35,000 feet to stick their arms out and flap just to keep the plane flying.

Delta took us from JFK to FCO and back and took us to Hawaii for our honeymoon. Top-notch service all around. American took us to PR last year. Not so much, and we had to shuffle seats on the fly just to sit together. And I ended up in a damn middle seat the whole way (mind you, I'm 6'3" and about 300 lbs and played defensive line in high school - and our overall flight time was about 16 hours round trip.) We took Southwest to Vegas last year - it was all right. Better than American, not as good as Delta.

I'd like to remove my vote for Southwest. Prices have been steadily increasing since they picked up Air Tran. I can now fly Delta cheaper, even after paying the bag fee.

Quote: Sabretom2

I'd like to remove my vote for Southwest. Prices have been steadily increasing since they picked up Air Tran. I can now fly Delta cheaper, even after paying the bag fee.

I checked trips to Vegas for Memorial Day weekend (assuming I can even go,) and discovered this - the same hotel, the same days, comparable departure times if I book through Southwest and through Vegas.com are a grand total of nine dollars' difference. (For the curious, the hotel I checked was the Mirage, and I was flying out 5/21 and returning 5/26 to CMH. I'm pretty sure the flights through Vegas.com were through United.) So Southwest may be awesome for direct flights and all, and they may be cheaper just for air flights, but the world is headed toward package deals, and Southwest is nothing special for those.

Quote: Sabretom2

I'd like to remove my vote for Southwest. Prices have been steadily increasing since they picked up Air Tran. I can now fly Delta cheaper, even after paying the bag fee.

Southwest is basically a main-line carrier now.

Quote: teddys

Southwest is basically a main-line carrier now.

For me the main benefit of Southwest is that you can change / cancel your flight with no penalty. I do this a fair bit since I tend to make a lot of short weekend trips -- it is not uncommon for me to want to extend the trip by a day, or change a morning departure to an evening one, or vice versa, for example. I actually just did this yesterday -- I have an upcoming trip to Vegas and I changed my departure from late evening to late morning.

Most other airlines only let you do this without some ridiculously large fee if you buy a full fare or first class ticket.

Quote: Sabretom2

I'd like to remove my vote for Southwest. Prices have been steadily increasing since they picked up Air Tran. I can now fly Delta cheaper, even after paying the bag fee.

Low cost airlines eventually will raise fares as soon as they can afford it.

For me the difference between Aeromexico, Volaris and Interjet roundtrip Mex City to Vegas is rather small. However, Volaris and Aeromexico limit luggage to 35 kg (25 checked, 10 carry-on), while Interjet elts you check 50 kg. plus the carry-on for the same price. These days that's what counts as in-flight service.

Quote: Nareed

Low cost airlines eventually will raise fares as soon as they can afford it.

For me the difference between Aeromexico, Volaris and Interjet roundtrip Mex City to Vegas is rather small. However, Volaris and Aeromexico limit luggage to 35 kg (25 checked, 10 carry-on), while Interjet elts you check 50 kg. plus the carry-on for the same price. These days that's what counts as in-flight service.

Holy cow!! 50kg? I can't imagine how anyone could have so much stuff while travelling. I really doubt if I have ever taken more than 15Kg of luggage anywhere. I just spent 9 days out of the country and my bag weighed 7Kg.

Quote: DRich

Holy cow!! 50kg? I can't imagine how anyone could have so much stuff while travelling.

I don't think I quite reached it last year.

But I'll do better this year :)

Quote:

I really doubt if I have ever taken more than 15Kg of luggage anywhere. I just spent 9 days out of the country and my bag weighed 7Kg.

From which the first thing one can deduce is: you're probably not a woman.

Last year I spent a little over two weeks in Vegas. That meant a lot of clothes to bring along, plus I always shop for new clothes, new underwear, new sleepwear (clothing is so much cheaper in the US, and of better quality), I got some makeup, too, new shoes (only four pairs), and a few other things. As I recall, I was just under the limit by a few kilos.

But there's another reason. This allowance by Interjet applies only to international flights (which mostly means to the US). There are a LOT of things which are much cheaper to buy int he US, even if you pay import duties upon arrival (and there's a $300 credit per person on imported merchandise anyway). Sporting equipment, for example, like skis, surfbaords, fishing gear, equestrian gear of some types, archery, bycicles etc. Some appliances you just can't find here,. others are less expensive in America. Big screen TVs were popular for a while (now not so much). In the check-in line for Interjet at McCarran you'll see lots of people lugging boxes of stuff. that takes up a great deal of weight (mass, rather, but lets' not quibble).

Even so, as I mentioned in last year's trip report, many passengers seemed to believe 50 kilos equals "everything you can lug to the check-in counter." So I assume Interjet does brisk business on charges for extra luggage, even with the 50 kg. allowance. Oh, also the allowance is "two pieces of checked luggage." So if you bring two suitcases and a box, even if you're udner the weight limit, you'll get charged something (it's in the website when you buy your ticket).

I used to like SouthWest but they killed their own business at Islip. Now I'll go out of my way to take Virgin America to 'Vegas.

I'm the master of getting my luggage to just under 49.9kg without a scale. I like to travel with bricks just to piss off airlines.

Quote: jml24

United is the absolute worst.

They didn't do well in this poll. Nevertheless, they really took care of me last week: I flew United roundtrip and on the outgoing (5 hour) flight I approached a flight attendant in the aft galley (next to the rear lavoratory) asking him for a beer. (For those of us seated in coach economy, soft drinks are free, but beer is $5.99.) He handed me the beer, I handed him my credit card, but he told me to put the card away, he was giving me the beer for free. Huh? I just assumed it was an anomoly, maybe the guy was having a good day and wanted to share the joy.

So on the return flight late in the week, it happened again: I asked for a beer, offered to pay for it, and was told by the (beautiful) brunette flight attendant that she was giving it to me for free. Later in the same flight, the blonde flight attendant continued the trend: another free beer.

It was a great flight. Cheers to United. Why does everyone hate this airline?

It's a split for me. If I'm flying to New York, it's Jet Blue. For all other destinations, it's Southwest. I like the personal video and 1st bag free (Do they still do this any more?) that Jet Blue offers. And as mentioned previously, their equipment seems newer. Unfortunately, JFK is the only destination that makes sense for me flying out of JAX. All other destinations seem to cost twice as much as the other guys and take twice as long, since I would be connecting in JFK.

Oddly enough, I had a neighbor a few doors down from my old house that was a Jet Blue pilot. I say "oddly" because this was years before Jet Blue had service to JAX!

Even though it is not what it used to be, I still like Southwest. Free bags, pleasant employees, and several non-stop destinations (though there are not as many as there used to be. RIP, non-stops to MSY and MDW!) put LUV still at the top of my list. I think it is ironic that they used to be thought of as "no frills," but now offer more perks that the "full service" operators.

My opinion has changed on their boarding policy, too. I used to think it was kind of "cheap" to not have assigned seats, but I changed my perspective. If you board early, you can choose where you sit. If you board late, you can choose whom you sit next to!