RonC
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January 24th, 2013 at 4:42:56 AM permalink
It appears that the race for the 2016 is already starting...Hillary Clinton's testimony yesterday left her pretty much untouched; that would boost her chances at a run for President. Will Biden run? He already said that he enjoys being President or some such thing. What are the odds at this point? How do they change over the next 3+ years?

Who will emerge from the Republican party?
boymimbo
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January 24th, 2013 at 5:08:51 AM permalink
The problem with the election cycle and politics in general is that rather than do something meaningful and bold, they look instead at the next election cycle to see how they can get reelected.

I have no idea what the "odds" are and who will emerge as candidates on either side. The Republicans need to regroup and moderate the tea party views if they want a chance to win in 2016. The democrats are going to have a good four years I think but the candidates are key.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 5:12:16 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

The problem with the election cycle and politics in general is that rather than do something meaningful and bold, they look instead at the next election cycle to see how they can get reelected.

I have no idea what the "odds" are and who will emerge as candidates on either side. The Republicans need to regroup and moderate the tea party views if they want a chance to win in 2016. The democrats are going to have a good four years I think but the candidates are key.



Yeah, moderate the tea party views. All that stuff about constitutionalism, living within your means, and personal responsibility is such a downer.

Wait, based on obamaclaus getting elected maybe all people want is handouts and empty platitudes.
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SOOPOO
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January 24th, 2013 at 5:38:44 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Yeah, moderate the tea party views. All that stuff about constitutionalism, living within your means, and personal responsibility is such a downer.

Wait, based on obamaclaus getting elected maybe all people want is handouts and empty platitudes.



You may be saying those things toungue in cheek, but unfortunately, the "47 %" that Romney spoke about, will be a higher percentage in 2016. Non -whites will be a higher percentage in 2016. Ask most Americans if they consider the reinstatement of the 2% FICA contribution a 'tax increase', or a return to the necessary contribution so that Social Security doesn't go bankrupt,.... I know which box will be checked. These are the voters. There are enough states with so many depending on the government's nipple, that the Republicans won't have a chance in an electoral college determined election.
I highly doubt either Hillary or Biden will run for president. Biden makes too many blunders, and, although I won't show pictures like EvenBob, Hillary is beginning to seem like an 'old woman'. I think we still have enough prejudices against a woman that age to not elect her. I think any other Democrat (put Governor or Senator name here) will win.

Of course I was the one who said that Obama was unelectable the first time, as I thought there were enough Americans who would normally vote for a Democrat, that once the curtain was pulled, wouldn't vote for a black man. Luckily I didn't bet on it!
rdw4potus
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January 24th, 2013 at 6:31:00 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Yeah, moderate the tea party views.
Wait, based on obamaclaus getting elected maybe all people want is handouts and empty platitudes.



OMG, I think you're starting to understand! :-P

I don't think the tea party is correct, but even if they are they have to also position themselves to WIN THE ELECTION before it matters. Right now, they're not even half way there. Since there are 0 people standing to the right of the tea party, it would seem that moderation - appealing to some of the people to the left of the tea party - is the ONLY avenue by which they stand any chance of success.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 7:13:59 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

OMG, I think you're starting to understand! :-P

I don't think the tea party is correct, but even if they are they have to also position themselves to WIN THE ELECTION before it matters. Right now, they're not even half way there. Since there are 0 people standing to the right of the tea party, it would seem that moderation - appealing to some of the people to the left of the tea party - is the ONLY avenue by which they stand any chance of success.



It is not that the tea party needs to move left it is that they need to keep getting their message out and expand. The media will always be biased against them so no help there. Half this nation is more interested in celebrity culture than things that matter. Signs of social rot are everywhere.

I again restate that the USA is near a major societal upheaval. I hope the tea party succeeds because the alternative is frankly quite scary. Fortunately some of those alternatives (occupy Wall Street, unions) have or are collapsing under their own weight. But I fear it will take major pain for much of "the 47%" to grow up and realize they can't keep riding in the cart forever and need to get out and pull.
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rdw4potus
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January 24th, 2013 at 7:25:25 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

It is not that the tea party needs to move left it is that they need to keep getting their message out and expand. The media will always be biased against them so no help there.



The largest media outlet in the country is in their back pocket. Stop whining.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 7:29:57 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

The largest media outlet in the country is in their back pocket. Stop whining.



So one outfit treats them fair and the rest are openly hostile. Yeah, I'll stop whining. By your standard GM still dominates the USA car market.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
rdw4potus
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January 24th, 2013 at 7:33:20 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

So one outfit treats them fair and the rest are openly hostile. Yeah, I'll stop whining. By your standard GM still dominates the USA car market.



I didn't say the rest were openly hostile, and I don't think the rest are openly hostile. I also don't think that the coddling from Fox is "fair."
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 7:39:23 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

I didn't say the rest were openly hostile, and I don't think the rest are openly hostile. I also don't think that the coddling from Fox is "fair."



So accurate reporting is "coddling?"

And claiming they are racist extremists with no basis in fact is not hostile?

Really?
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rdw4potus
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January 24th, 2013 at 7:50:45 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

So accurate reporting is "coddling?"

And claiming they are racist extremists with no basis in fact is not hostile?

Really?



They're waaaaaaaaaaaaay out at one end of the political spectrum. So they're extremists by definition. That's fact. I don't know what more could possibly be said here. Words have definitions. That's just how it works.

And some, but only some, of them are racists. And nobody in the mainstream press is reporting any differently. Aside from people within the tea party reacting to this "racist" BS, I really don't hear anyone anywhere talking about it. At all. Certainly not the mainstream press.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Buzzard
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January 24th, 2013 at 7:53:44 AM permalink
I was gonna join the tea party, but I couldn't find a sheet to fit me.LOL
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EvenBob
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January 24th, 2013 at 8:01:08 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

They're waaaaaaaaaaaaay out at one end of the political spectrum.



If they'd just get rid of Beckel, Juan Williams, Geraldo, Greta,
Kirsten Powers, Stossel the Libertarian, and the Lib guy who
has the show from 7-8, who was always jumping on Bush
afte Katrina, if they got rid of all these radicals and moved
more to the center, like CNN or MSNBC, they'd get a lot
more viewers.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
rdw4potus
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January 24th, 2013 at 8:06:53 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

If they'd just get rid of Beckel, Juan Williams, Geraldo, Greta,
Kirsten Powers, Stossel the Libertarian, and the Lib guy who
has the show from 7-8, who was always jumping on Bush
afte Katrina, if they got rid of all these radicals and moved
more to the center, like CNN or MSNBC, they'd get a lot
more viewers.



WTF are you talking about?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
EvenBob
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January 24th, 2013 at 8:25:15 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

WTF are you talking about?



FOX, what are you talking about.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
rdw4potus
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January 24th, 2013 at 8:27:07 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

FOX, what are you talking about.



The tea party.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
MrV
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January 24th, 2013 at 8:28:53 AM permalink
Mod: shouldn't this thread be busted?

What has it to do with gambling?
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rdw4potus
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January 24th, 2013 at 8:34:49 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Mod: shouldn't this thread be busted?

What has it to do with gambling?



I suppose this is a good point. Ron's original post was about the odds of candidates' success, which would at least inform betting lines. But we've certainly digressed.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
thecesspit
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January 24th, 2013 at 8:44:55 AM permalink
Thread is off-topic.... in the off-topic forum.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 8:49:19 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

They're waaaaaaaaaaaaay out at one end of the political spectrum. So they're extremists by definition. That's fact. I don't know what more could possibly be said here. Words have definitions. That's just how it works.

And some, but only some, of them are racists. And nobody in the mainstream press is reporting any differently. Aside from people within the tea party reacting to this "racist" BS, I really don't hear anyone anywhere talking about it. At all. Certainly not the mainstream press.



And Obama is an extremist on the left. Yet they gush over any socialist idea he has

Ows was exceptionally anti-Semite and anti-Israel. But you never heard about that

But tell you what. Take any example you can find of Fnc "coddling" the tea party. Multiply it by a factor of ten. Then you will have how the lame stream media has treated Obama.
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AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 8:51:19 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I was gonna join the tea party, but I couldn't find a sheet to fit me.LOL



Not sure what you mean as the KKK was typically associated with the democrats.

But please cite a tea party position that is racist. Other than they disagree with Obamas policies. I dare you to try.
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rdw4potus
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January 24th, 2013 at 8:51:51 AM permalink
So what do the lines look like for 2016? I haven't looked at all. Maybe let's start with the field:

D:
Clinton
Schweitzer
Warren
Warner
Biden

R:
Rubio
Jindal
Christie
Ryan
Paul (Rand)

Clinton has to be a favorite on the D side, assuming her denials have just been posturing so that she doesn't appear to start a campaign 4 years before the election. I'm not sure who the favorite is for the Republicans. Rubio, maybe? or Christie?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
1arrowheaddr
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January 24th, 2013 at 9:11:22 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

So what do the lines look like for 2016? I haven't looked at all. Maybe let's start with the field:



Per William Hill UK
Odds to win 2016 Presidential Election

D:
Clinton 5/2
Schweitzer
Warren 20/1
Warner 20/1
Biden 8/1
Cuomo (Andrew) 9/1

R:
Bush (Jeb) 6/1
Rubio 10/1
Jindal 50/1
Christie 20/1
Ryan 16/1
Paul (Rand) 100/1

I added a couple of more names that are among the favorites.
Republicans tend to nominate the person who is seen as being next in line. I think it would be Jeb Bush's nomination to lose should he decide to run. Rubio and Ryan have limited executive experience and besides Obama, no one has been elected president in recent years without having been a governor or vice-president. I think Christie is in trouble because he is from the northeast, was "buddy buddy" with Obama with regard to Hurricane Sandy and is in fairly poor physical shape.

The Democratic Party tends to much more wide open. Hillary is a prohibitive favorite should she decide to run again. I think the feeling among some Obama supporters in 2008 that they made a mistake in supporting him over Hillary would help her fend off the insurgent candidate in the 2016 primary. Biden isn't taken seriously and I can't see a scenario where he wins even if Hillary declines.
thecesspit
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January 24th, 2013 at 9:16:15 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

And Obama is an extremist on the left. Yet they gush over any socialist idea he has



BZZT. Obama is not a socialist and he is NOT by any extreme 'extreme leftist'. Not sure the tea party is extreme right wing either, to be honest.

The Southern Democrats were the racist, nasty part of the party at the time, but I think linking the policies of the 5th Party system (when the south was dominated by the old Southern Democrats) to the big swing after the civil rights movement is probably misguided. Looking at the history of either party beyond 20-30 years back is deny how parties and politics and policies change over time.

The Tea Party needs a rebrand. The core philosophy of small government, the value of help coming from within not without is good. But don't tell people how they have to live their lives socially, and make it clear the government has no part in those decisions -either for OR against-. The tea party is -protrayed- as ultra reactionary. For all I know it is.

".... which advocates civil liberties and political freedom with limited government under the rule of law and generally promotes a laissez-faire economic policy"

Would that be a fair statement of the a core principal (added in with upholding the Constituton as written?)
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
boymimbo
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January 24th, 2013 at 9:28:28 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

OMG, I think you're starting to understand! :-P

I don't think the tea party is correct, but even if they are they have to also position themselves to WIN THE ELECTION before it matters. Right now, they're not even half way there. Since there are 0 people standing to the right of the tea party, it would seem that moderation - appealing to some of the people to the left of the tea party - is the ONLY avenue by which they stand any chance of success.



+1. AZ, that was my point. You aren't going to shift the nation to win an election based on the tea party's platform exclusively.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 9:32:49 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

BZZT. Obama is not a socialist and he is NOT by any extreme 'extreme leftist'. Not sure the tea party is extreme right wing either, to be honest.

The Southern Democrats were the racist, nasty part of the party at the time, but I think linking the policies of the 5th Party system (when the south was dominated by the old Southern Democrats) to the big swing after the civil rights movement is probably misguided. Looking at the history of either party beyond 20-30 years back is deny how parties and politics and policies change over time.

The Tea Party needs a rebrand. The core philosophy of small government, the value of help coming from within not without is good. But don't tell people how they have to live their lives socially, and make it clear the government has no part in those decisions -either for OR against-. The tea party is -protrayed- as ultra reactionary. For all I know it is.

".... which advocates civil liberties and political freedom with limited government under the rule of law and generally promotes a laissez-faire economic policy"

Would that be a fair statement of the a core principal (added in with upholding the Constituton as written?)



Obama not an extreme leftist or socialist? The guy has called for bankrupting coal producers and single payer health insurance.

And you should believe what you preach as Obama and the left LOVE telling people how to live their lives socially. Thanks to him I get to pay for free birth control pills. His ex chief of staff would not allow a business to open for the simple reason he did not like the beliefs of the owner.

And you call the tea party extreme?
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kewlj
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January 24th, 2013 at 9:33:25 AM permalink
REALLY?? 2016?? We are starting with 2016 already? :(

(rest of post deleted)

Changed my mind. I don't even want to play at this time. I've set a wake up call for Sept 2016.
thecesspit
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January 24th, 2013 at 10:23:47 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Obama not an extreme leftist or socialist? The guy has called for bankrupting coal producers and single payer health insurance.



No he's not an extreme leftist. Really, he is not. You want him to be, to be the boogeyman, but compared to left-wing Europe Socialism, he is not.

Quote:


And you should believe what you preach as Obama and the left LOVE telling people how to live their lives socially. Thanks to him I get to pay for free birth control pills. His ex chief of staff would not allow a business to open for the simple reason he did not like the beliefs of the owner.



I think both those things are reprehensible. But, as you know, I don't vote in the US. I don't even particularly think Obama is a good left-wing, liberal democrat that I'd vote for either. Why you attacking me, and Obama instead of building up your own stand point and policies? The left doesn't tell people how to live their lives socially. It however will promote and support all -types- of social lives from the core. Subtle, important difference.

But really, paying for birth control is the least of your worries. In many insurance schemes, you end up paying for things you neither want, need or desire.

Quote:

And you call the tea party extreme?



Um, I didn't.

Quote: thecesspit

Not sure the tea party is extreme right wing either, to be honest.



I'll repeat my question which was missing a word.

Quote:

".... which advocates civil liberties and political freedom with limited government under the rule of law and generally promotes a laissez-faire economic policy"

Would that be a fair statement of the Republican a core principal (added in with upholding the Constituton as written?)

"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 10:39:29 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

No he's not an extreme leftist. Really, he is not. You want him to be, to be the boogeyman, but compared to left-wing Europe Socialism, he is not.



He is not in Europe he is I the USA. Here he is as far left as FDR and Wilson.

He has said he wants my electric bill to skyrocket and refuses to allow a pipeline to be built based on belief in global warming. He favors not allowing me to vote if I join a labor union. He believes judges are supposed to advocate for one side. He is far left.



Quote:

The left doesn't tell people how to live their lives socially. It however will promote and support all -types- of social lives from the core. Subtle, important difference.




The right doesn't tell people how to live their lives either. They will, however, say they have standards for personal behavior and that some behavior is wrong. The left otoh will attack you if while you are not hurting anyone you still think such behavior is wrong. The left will even try to destroy your reputation and business if you do not believe in their social issues.
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thecesspit
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January 24th, 2013 at 10:48:56 AM permalink
Oh far left in the US? Sire, I can buy that. But that really is centrist-right in the rest of the world. And not SOCIALISM.

Extended government, corporatist? Sure thing, will buy that completely. Social Democrat? Maybe... Socialist? Not close.

Hmmm, you do seem to want to ignore my question.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
rdw4potus
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January 24th, 2013 at 11:08:57 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

He is not in Europe he is I the USA. Here he is as far left as FDR and Wilson.



As far left as FDR and Wilson? Really? Your case AGAINST Obama includes comparing him to two of the most popular and effective Presidents of all-time? That's an interesting strategy.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 11:35:43 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

As far left as FDR and Wilson? Really? Your case AGAINST Obama includes comparing him to two of the most popular and effective Presidents of all-time? That's an interesting strategy.



Both FDR and Wildon were far left. FDR extended the depression and Wilson was the real start of big government.

Obama has both extended a recession with a anemic recovery at best and spends at near WW2 levels.

I see nothing Obama has done as a success. He hasn't even been able to get his own party to pass a budget!
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AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 11:42:24 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Oh far left in the US? Sire, I can buy that. But that really is centrist-right in the rest of the world. And not SOCIALISM.

Extended government, corporatist? Sure thing, will buy that completely. Social Democrat? Maybe... Socialist? Not close.

Hmmm, you do seem to want to ignore my question.



Typing on a smartphone. Hart to fit it all in.

I'd say I partly agree with your statement as I understand it but it is not a complete definition

Social Democrat = Socialism as far as that goes. If not socialism then callit fascism. It is still government control of private industry whether direct as in socialism of via heavy regs like in fascism.
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TheNightfly
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January 24th, 2013 at 12:34:42 PM permalink
I've always been curious as to why Ron Paul never made more of a splash with the Republican party than he did. At 77 today, I don't think there's a snowball's chance that he'll even be in the primaries in 2016 but I always saw him as the perfect choice for the Right. He's as much a genuine constitutionalist as you'll find and from what I saw and heard, seemed at least to be way ahead of every other candidate in the smarts department. He is eloquent to a degree and never put up with any BS. He truly always seemed to want the best for the US people. I know he doesn't have the money or the hair of a Romney or a Perry or a Santorum but it was certainly obvious to me that he had them all beat by a mile when it came to brains and policy.

Why did he never do better than he did? I'm addressing this to anyone who aligns themselves with the Republican party because although I tend to agree more with the politics of the Democrats, had it somehow come down to a presidential choice between Ron Paul and ANYONE (including Obama) I would have chosen Paul in a heartbeat.

What am I missing?
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AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 12:43:43 PM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

I've always been curious as to why Ron Paul never made more of a splash with the Republican party than he did. At 77 today, I don't think there's a snowball's chance that he'll even be in the primaries in 2016 but I always saw him as the perfect choice for the Right. He's as much a genuine constitutionalist as you'll find and from what I saw and heard, seemed at least to be way ahead of every other candidate in the smarts department. He is eloquent to a degree and never put up with any BS. He truly always seemed to want the best for the US people. I know he doesn't have the money or the hair of a Romney or a Perry or a Santorum but it was certainly obvious to me that he had them all beat by a mile when it came to brains and policy.

Why did he never do better than he did? I'm addressing this to anyone who aligns themselves with the Republican party because although I tend to agree more with the politics of the Democrats, had it somehow come down to a presidential choice between Ron Paul and ANYONE (including Obama) I would have chosen Paul in a heartbeat.

What am I missing?



He lost me when he said we were at least partly to blame for 9/11.

Paul is unusual in that almost anyone can like some of his positions but others turn the same people off.

His son seems an easier sell.
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Paradigm
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January 24th, 2013 at 1:17:36 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

The Tea Party needs a rebrand. The core philosophy of small government, the value of help coming from within not without is good. But don't tell people how they have to live their lives socially, and make it clear the government has no part in those decisions -either for OR against-. The tea party is -protrayed- as ultra reactionary.



This can be said for the entire Republican platform and I have voted Republican for the 27 years that I have been eligible to vote. If the Republicans want to have a say in the fiscal policies of this country, they had better back away from their Pro-Life, Pro NRA anti immigration policies.

I absolutely hated Paul Ryan's response to the Pro-Life question in the debates and Biden for all of his smirking and laughing during that debate has a position that works for the American people: Joe Biden from a religious standpoint doesn't believe in abortion but also doesn't believe it is the governments role to make that decision for every American. Ryan says he votes the way his faith leads him and you can't separate the two.....really, you can't separate your church and state positions? That position will win you a low 40's percent of the vote in this country, so good luck!

And while I think the assualt weapons ban likely smacks against the 2nd Amendment, do the Republicans really want to lose control of the fiscal and economic policies in this country over whether the government allows 10 or 9 round magazines in AR-15's? When is the Republican party and conservatives (and I include myself in that category) going to learn to fight certain battles that matter as it relates to the financial future of this country and let the social and non-economic issues go.

We need to cave on NRA, Abortion, Immigration and use that political capital to fight hard on spending, taxes and the economy. The problem is that by the time that we get to those three important issues, we have lost 55% of the country's support fighting about guns, abortion and immigration. The choice is really pretty simple for the right, come to the center on social policy or have no say in the fiscal and taxation policies of the country.
thecesspit
thecesspit
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January 24th, 2013 at 1:28:20 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Typing on a smartphone. Hart to fit it all in.



Fair enough.

Quote:

I'd say I partly agree with your statement as I understand it but it is not a complete definition



Can you give me a fuller one? I ask, only to be informed.

The snippet I gave, by the way, is Classical Liberalism (which is a different beast to American Liberalism, just be clear), which I've read was a core of the Republican Party, all those years ago when founded. I believed the statement I used contained at least part of what the core beliefs of the GOP and Tea Party were, but if I am wrong, I'm happy to be re-educated.

(Ignore the fact the word Liberal is in there... not every where uses it as a dirty word :))
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
TheNightfly
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January 24th, 2013 at 1:35:17 PM permalink
Very well put Paradigm. That's how I see it as well and I'd venture to guess that's how many people see it as well, which would explain why the vote went the way it did. Both parties have to see how close these last few races have been and realize that the more they hold on to their "philosophical" social policy hard-line stances the more votes they will lose to people who don't agree with them.

Going back to John Adams, the Treaty of Tripoli and the First Amendment itself, why is it that the American public puts up with any politician who espouses their religious beliefs in any context when running for office at any level? I firmly believe that, for as often as we hear someone ridiculing the Muslim faith and associating it with terrorism, just as often the United States will take a stance based upon the "Christian" way of life when the United States is not a Christian country to begin with. This is not to say that many Americans don't consider themselves to be Christian but the country itself (meaning the constitution and the vision of the founding fathers) explicitly forbade this correlation.

As soon as a politician begins to wax philosophical on the strength of their country and its people based upon any religious belief, that's the point where they've lost me for good.
Happiness is underrated
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 24th, 2013 at 1:40:42 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

So what do the lines look like for 2016?

Clinton has to be a favorite on the D side, ?



What has she done in office or as Sec of State that
would make her a candidate. NOTHING! Its because
she's married to Bill, thats the only reason. Most people
think he'll be running the show if she gets elected.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 24th, 2013 at 1:48:21 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

No he's not an extreme leftist. Really, he is not.



OK, I'll bite. If Obama isn't, name an American politician
who is an extreme Leftist? The people who study these
things said Obama was the most extreme Leftist in the
Senate. How have his policies change? He still favors
partial birth murder, he favors bankrupting private
industry if he doesn't like them, he's a gun control
advocate, he said all of our electric bills would 'skyrocket'
if he had his way, he wants single payer healthcare.

Name sombody who's farther to the Left than him.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paradigm
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January 24th, 2013 at 1:54:05 PM permalink
EB, I totally agree with you on this....so if the Republicans want to defeat her, they better have a plan that is better than "She hasn't done anything to deserve to be elected"....that argument is going to be lost on the masses that like Bill Clinton.

The Right needs a much more compelling argument in their platform than "look at her record", because the voters are going to look at her and Bill's record collectively and say "We actually really like them together in the White House", case closed and 8 years of Hillary after 8 years of Obama.

If we don't like what is coming, we better dramatically change what we are offering the voters when it comes to chosing Republican because the past offerings aren't going to work in 2016 either.
EvenBob
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January 24th, 2013 at 1:59:43 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm



because the voters are going to look at her and Bill's record collectively and say "We actually really like them together in the White House",.



I challenge anybody to have a real conversation with a
Dem about Hillary and they will always, 100% of the
time, talk more about Bill than her. In their minds
they are connected at the hip. When you get her you
get him and thats what they want. Voting for Hillary
gives Bill a third term in their minds.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Doc
Doc
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January 24th, 2013 at 2:02:25 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

OK, I'll bite. If Obama isn't, name an American politician
who is an extreme Leftist? ... Name sombody who's farther to the Left than him.


The extreme left could not find a suitable candidate of their own, but they did find someone they could support, more than a year ahead of the election.

http://www.wnd.com/2011/08/329449/
TheNightfly
TheNightfly
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January 24th, 2013 at 2:02:25 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I challenge anybody to have a real conversation with a
Dem about Hillary and they will always, 100% of the
time, talk more about Bill than her. In their minds
they are connected at the hip. When you get her you
get him and thats what they want. Voting for Hillary
gives Bill a third term in their minds.

That's the point exactly and there are a lot of people who would vote for that. What can the Republican party propose that is better? What can they do or say that will change the minds of those Bill & Hillary lovers apart from trying to knock them down?
Happiness is underrated
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 2:19:14 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm



We need to cave on NRA, Abortion, Immigration and use that political capital to fight hard on spending, taxes and the economy. The problem is that by the time that we get to those three important issues, we have lost 55% of the country's support fighting about guns, abortion and immigration. The choice is really pretty simple for the right, come to the center on social policy or have no say in the fiscal and taxation policies of the country.



Cave on all of this and you will have no political capital as nobody will show up to vote for you. Do you seriously think once you cave there that is the end of it? Nope, the bar will be moved even further left, and country-club republicans will say "we need to cave again, THEN they will vote for us!"

Seriously, name one social issue the left caved on 1980-2008 before they won a majority for POTUS?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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January 24th, 2013 at 2:23:02 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

This can be said for the entire Republican platform and I have voted Republican for the 27 years that I have been eligible to vote. If the Republicans want to have a say in the fiscal policies of this country, they had better back away from their Pro-Life, Pro NRA anti immigration policies.

I absolutely hated Paul Ryan's response to the Pro-Life question in the debates and Biden for all of his smirking and laughing during that debate has a position that works for the American people: Joe Biden from a religious standpoint doesn't believe in abortion but also doesn't believe it is the governments role to make that decision for every American. Ryan says he votes the way his faith leads him and you can't separate the two.....really, you can't separate your church and state positions? That position will win you a low 40's percent of the vote in this country, so good luck!

And while I think the assualt weapons ban likely smacks against the 2nd Amendment, do the Republicans really want to lose control of the fiscal and economic policies in this country over whether the government allows 10 or 9 round magazines in AR-15's? When is the Republican party and conservatives (and I include myself in that category) going to learn to fight certain battles that matter as it relates to the financial future of this country and let the social and non-economic issues go.

We need to cave on NRA, Abortion, Immigration and use that political capital to fight hard on spending, taxes and the economy. The problem is that by the time that we get to those three important issues, we have lost 55% of the country's support fighting about guns, abortion and immigration. The choice is really pretty simple for the right, come to the center on social policy or have no say in the fiscal and taxation policies of the country.



Any time you want to run for office, at any level, anywhere in the country, I'll do everything and anything I can to support your campaign.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
timberjim
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January 24th, 2013 at 2:30:58 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

The extreme left could not find a suitable candidate of their own, but they did find someone they could support, more than a year ahead of the election.

http://www.wnd.com/2011/08/329449/



Immediately after clicking on this link, I started have problems with my computer. Any body else experience that or did my computer just choose then to act like something was trying to take control of it?
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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January 24th, 2013 at 2:33:18 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I challenge anybody to have a real conversation with a
Dem about Hillary and they will always, 100% of the
time, talk more about Bill than her. In their minds
they are connected at the hip. When you get her you
get him and thats what they want. Voting for Hillary
gives Bill a third term in their minds.


I find this hilarious given they don't seem to have a really close personal relationship anymore, given Bill's indiscretions.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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January 24th, 2013 at 2:37:13 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Fair enough.



Can you give me a fuller one? I ask, only to be informed.

The snippet I gave, by the way, is Classical Liberalism (which is a different beast to American Liberalism, just be clear), which I've read was a core of the Republican Party, all those years ago when founded. I believed the statement I used contained at least part of what the core beliefs of the GOP and Tea Party were, but if I am wrong, I'm happy to be re-educated.

(Ignore the fact the word Liberal is in there... not every where uses it as a dirty word :))



Computer deleted what I wrote, have to leave for work, will try another time.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 24th, 2013 at 2:45:55 PM permalink
Compared to who we have in office now, Bill Clinton
is Zeus. He's personable, smart, knows how to reach
across the aisle, he's hands on rather than hands off,
which Obama is. He keeps up with the job and does
the job, he's not skipping security briefings so he can
play golf. And he loves this country, and doesn't hate
and resent it like you know who.

He hates Obama. His friends say he'll never forgive
Obama for calling him a racist in 2008. Clinton has
bent over backwards to be nonracist his whole career,
the press even dubbed him our 'first black president'
in the 90's. To call him a racist struck him right in the
heart.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
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