Thread Rating:

Poll

14 votes (29.78%)
19 votes (40.42%)
11 votes (23.4%)
27 votes (57.44%)
22 votes (46.8%)

47 members have voted

Paradigm
Paradigm
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June 28th, 2012 at 4:39:21 PM permalink
The "driving is a privilege" comment from the Obamacare thread got me thinking, what do people believe about medical care and how does that belief line up with their opinion on Obamacare.

If you would like to participate in the poll, vote for all that apply to you.

(I checked the box to allow you to vote for more than one, let's see if it works)
Paradigm
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:01:35 PM permalink
If you can post reply when you vote to bump the thread, we would get a better picture of where forum members stand on this poll.
WongBo
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:07:42 PM permalink
curious to know, of the people who answered that medical care is a priv. you should pay for:
if you couldn't afford medical care and faced a certain but preventable death,
would you just shrug and go quietly?
somehow i really doubt it.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
s2dbaker
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:17:47 PM permalink
Quote: WongBo

curious to know, of the people who answered that medical care is a priv. you should pay for:
if you couldn't afford medical care and faced a certain but preventable death,
would you just shrug and go quietly?
somehow i really doubt it.

Before you answer, keep in mind that a woman with breasts can be jettisoned from her healthcare coverage if she contracts breast cancer because of her pre-existing condition of having breasts.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
rdw4potus
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:20:49 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Before you answer, keep in mind that a woman with breasts can be jettisoned from her healthcare coverage if she contracts breast cancer because of her pre-existing condition of having breasts.



Lol, that is funny but not true. Also, testicular cancer exists...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
buzzpaff
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:29:40 PM permalink
I say just let them die in the streets. They are the ones that got sick.

I would only make one exception: For me, my family, and friends.
DigitalTim
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:39:24 PM permalink
I voted other.
SOOPOO
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June 29th, 2012 at 5:59:40 AM permalink
Quote: WongBo

curious to know, of the people who answered that medical care is a priv. you should pay for:
if you couldn't afford medical care and faced a certain but preventable death,
would you just shrug and go quietly?
somehow i really doubt it.



How about--
Food?
Smoke detectors?
Housing?
College education?
Summer camp?
Snow plowed driveway?

Which of the above should the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT be involved in making SURE each citizen has?
If you hire a snow plow service instead of doing it yourself, should you be eligible for food stamps?
If you own an Iphone instead of the virtually free emergency only phone should you be eligible for food stamps?


And the answer to the question is simple. The person facing 'a certain but preventable death', just walks into my ER. They get treatment now. The states and localities pay for it. Obamacare just is a shift to the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, making it bigger and more in your everyday lives. I deal with private insurers and government (Medicare, Medicaid, Workers Comp, No fault) insurers. The red tape the government has us cut through is vastly more wasteful than any private insurer.
One recent example... Medicare uses a ridiculous formula to come up with what they will pay us, and sent us the results for 2011. We did the math and said they made an error by a few cents per 'unit' or about 50 cents per case. We asked if they could show us how they figured it out, so we could at least understand our error. No response, for a YEAR. A few months back they sent us a letter saying they made a mistake for 2011, and we can bill for the shortfall. So they expect us to look at every bill, and generate a new one, and send them a bill for 80% of the error, and the patient a bill for the 20% they are responsible for. You all know how much a stamp costs! If a private insurer made such a mistake they would go back over the year, see how many units we billed, and just send us a check for the number of units times the amount of the error.
Gabes22
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June 29th, 2012 at 6:07:53 AM permalink
Very well said SOOPOO. The problem with medical care in this country is the red tape involoved. My wife is a RN and more than 50% of her day is spent filling out forms for the government and insurance companies. It really makes her wonder if she picked the correct career path. She wanted to help patients, and because of how much of her time is spent filling out paperwork she doesn't feel she is sufficiently helping people. I think most people don't mind helping people who genuinely cannot help themselves, however in America we have FAR too many people who are more than happy with eeking by on the government teat. We are giving far too many people help who do not wish to help themselves.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
FinsRule
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June 29th, 2012 at 6:44:46 AM permalink
Basic medical care is a right. Excellent medical care is a privilege.
AZDuffman
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June 29th, 2012 at 6:55:56 AM permalink
It is no more a right or privlege than buying anything is a right or privlege.

"Rights" are bestowed by your creator, no matter what you feel that to be say a persnal God to mother nature. Rights take away from nobody else. eg: You are not required to give anything if I pursue happieness via a night in the poker room.

OTOH, to say you have a "right" to medical care does indeed take away from somebody else.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AZDuffman
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June 29th, 2012 at 6:58:55 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Before you answer, keep in mind that a woman with breasts can be jettisoned from her healthcare coverage if she contracts breast cancer because of her pre-existing condition of having breasts.



Please cite even one example of this.

Now, if she gets cancer with no insurance and lies about it before she buys a policy she should be denied. That is like wrecking your car, buying a collision policy, then demanding coverage.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
s2dbaker
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June 29th, 2012 at 7:21:17 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Please cite even one example of this.

Why should I be held to a higher standard than you? You never cite sources and spout the most ridiculous projections and unsupported anecdotes. I'm merely emulating what you do all of the time.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
rainman
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June 29th, 2012 at 7:38:23 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Please cite even one example of this.

Now, if she gets cancer with no insurance and lies about it before she buys a policy she should be denied. That is like wrecking your car, buying a collision policy, then demanding coverage.



I don't think comparing monetary loss with the loss of life is a good one. I would be willing to wager if you were faced with losing your life or lying you would choose the latter, as would all humans. We will do anything for self preservation its human nature.
FinsRule
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June 29th, 2012 at 7:47:52 AM permalink
Quote: rainman

I don't think comparing monetary loss with the loss of life is a good one. I would be willing to wager if you were faced with losing your life or lying you would choose the latter, as would all humans. We will do anything for self preservation its human nature.



Not completely true.

When people get older, they often trade prolonging a life with pain and costing hundreds of thousands of dollars for a comfortable last few months.
cardshark
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June 29th, 2012 at 7:53:41 AM permalink
Personal opinion: I believe anything that is necessary for human life is a right that should be guaranteed by the government. This would include access to hospital care, clean air, clean drinking water, financial support to those who need it for food and shelter.

I also believe that access to education is a right, post-secondary included, even though it is not directly necessary to support life. Education is the key to solving so many of society's issues, such as crime, mortality and morbidity, poverty, etc.

For what it's worth, I live in Canada and am pretty left on the spectrum according to the political compass.
rainman
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June 29th, 2012 at 7:59:57 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Not completely true.

When people get older, they often trade prolonging a life with pain and costing hundreds of thousands of dollars for a comfortable last few months.



Your speaking of entirely different circumstances, being at the end of life facing an inevitable painful demise is a little different. who am I kidding its alot different.
FinsRule
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June 29th, 2012 at 8:11:14 AM permalink
Quote: rainman

Your speaking of entirely different circumstances, being at the end of life facing an inevitable painful demise is a little different. who am I kidding its alot different.



I was referring to your comment saying that humans will always choose self-preservation. And they won't always....
98Clubs
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June 29th, 2012 at 8:11:22 AM permalink
@FinsRule... +1

Unfortuneately, its still broken.

Room at a Hospital per day... lets say its $800
Out-patient care, using a room for 1 hour $2000.

That example recently happened to a neighbor over the course of a few months this year.
I almost spit my beer out.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
rainman
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June 29th, 2012 at 8:21:58 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

I was referring to your comment saying that humans will always choose self-preservation. And they won't always....



Well yes, but your example is probably the one exception to the rule. Ok here 99.999999% of people will opt for self preservation. ;)
Gabes22
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June 29th, 2012 at 8:23:50 AM permalink
Quote: rainman

Well yes, but your example is probably the one exception to the rule. Ok here 99.999999% of people will opt for self preservation. ;)


I would wager that there are more than 3 people in America who wouldn't.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
ewjones080
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June 29th, 2012 at 8:25:46 AM permalink
Quote: cardshark

Personal opinion: I believe anything that is necessary for human life is a right that should be guaranteed by the government. This would include access to hospital care, clean air, clean drinking water, financial support to those who need it for food and shelter.

I also believe that access to education is a right, post-secondary included, even though it is not directly necessary to support life. Education is the key to solving so many of society's issues, such as crime, mortality and morbidity, poverty, etc.

For what it's worth, I live in Canada and am pretty left on the spectrum according to the political compass.



As I understand it, Canadians like their healthcare system and it works for them. So what's the difference between that and Obamacare? I just don't get why people are so pissed about it? It sounds to me, people are just greedy and don't want to pay a couple bucks to help out others. Don't get me wrong, I would call myself selfish and relatively uncaring. I don't care much for others, but I understand the merit in helping others.

And education is broken also. I think the biggest problem is we try to educate everyone, when some people are just too stupid to be properly educated.
rainman
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June 29th, 2012 at 8:29:45 AM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

I would wager that there are more than 3 people in America who wouldn't.



OK 98.999999% I think i can adjust this number again and it will still favor my point.
AZDuffman
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June 29th, 2012 at 8:47:49 AM permalink
Quote: ewjones080

As I understand it, Canadians like their healthcare system and it works for them. So what's the difference between that and Obamacare? I just don't get why people are so pissed about it? It sounds to me, people are just greedy and don't want to pay a couple bucks to help out others. Don't get me wrong, I would call myself selfish and relatively uncaring. I don't care much for others, but I understand the merit in helping others.



Actually, the greed is on the part of the people who do not want to pay for their own coverage or/and don't want to pay a market rate because of those wascally health insurane companies who make millions and own nice office buildings for their people to work in.

Perhaps we should test liberals greed? Put a line-item on your health insurane bill where you may give some amount so a person who cannot afford health insurance can get a policy should enough people pay. Then those who say, "we should help" can do so.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
scire
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July 5th, 2012 at 5:53:04 PM permalink
Quote: WongBo

curious to know, of the people who answered that medical care is a priv. you should pay for:
if you couldn't afford medical care and faced a certain but preventable death,
would you just shrug and go quietly?
somehow i really doubt it.[/q Wong Bo

Just shrug and go quitely. And I would be hurt --but--- realize that if I cannot pay for it I should not be able to obtain it.

And if someone wanted to help (i would hope) me-- fine. But I believe I have no right to DEMAND someone (such as a government or Hospital) to help me. This is a way of life and thinking that has evolved over time as Medical Science makes it's way in and thru Governmental humanitarianism and media involvement in what government should and should not be doing. Also there is a huge profit motivation in Medical Science-thank god.

I wish the world were a nicer place and those who study Medicine could provide their care purely as humanitarian aid without any pay or threat of being sued.

I saw a post here on one of the FORUMS of someone who truly believes the goverment should pay for all the necessities of life!

Child care is a big part of Medical care is it not. Of course it is ---please read on.

No one tells anyone as to whether or not they should or should not have a child in this country. If one has a child does that mean that we all should pay for that child? (as if everyone on the planet is responsible for every baby born which probably shouldn't have even been concieved-- due to lack of means --in the first place). But conceive children without means far to many do--oftentimes so the mother can get their start in life--- for who's sake is that -the childs ????

And where are many of the fathers? Do they pay? Not all of them. I know 1 women in particular who had four children from four different fathers. None of those fathers pay support. How did they escape paying???? Well the mother claimed -each time- she did not know who the fathers were. ...should she get healthcare forever--well one way or another I'm sure she still does. And the men? Well, they're to busy f***** and to busy duckin ...but they get healthcare too...always did. Should those who live outside the system always get something such as healthcare when they may not even be supporting there own children but adding a burden onto the taxpayers? Well they do. Where? in the USA. Should it be their "right". Well then lets take care of hundreds of millions more then around the planet. Lets let American taxpayers pay for it all! Of course I'm being facisious but not with any malice--just to make a point.

Just because someone believes Healthcare should be a privilage does not mean they wish bad health or bad luck or bad anything on anyone. People who feel this way often are all to aware of our Nations HUGE NATIONAL DEBT along with HUGE UNFUNDED LIABILITIES that threaten the greatest Nation on Earth.

What is the Government without our tax dollars or the ability to get others to buy our debt so we can have healthcare .We all are privilaged in this country anyway are we not? Compared to other Nations we are.

As long as it is not free health care for all (and that is impossible) and as long as anyone on the planet can't get the same health care--- then it is a privilage.

{I'm glad that Medical Science has the monetary incentive to try to solve/cure disease along with the desire to conquer the unknowns that shorten life. I 'm sure their are those who truly want to leave a legacy of "victory by cure" but am also aware that just as many enter the field for their own financial benefit and personal accomplishment. "Hats off" to you all.}

It's always about the $$$. I pray we here in the US don't find out that fact in a negative way in the future. We as a Nation are in massive debt as aforementioned and unfunded liabilitys to the tune total of aprox$ 60,000,000,000,000.00 That's sixty trillion dollars. And I've heard it might be even higher but I do try to be as accurate as I can. (i hope i got the right amount of zeros in the number folks)!

rxwine
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July 5th, 2012 at 6:25:07 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Perhaps we should test liberals greed? Put a line-item on your health insurane bill where you may give some amount so a person who cannot afford health insurance can get a policy should enough people pay. Then those who say, "we should help" can do so.



Your definition of greed is screwed up.

If I was greedy, I'd just want the transfer of money -- I wouldn't bother with middlemen like insurance or healthcare.

I wouldn't care if the system was equitable across the board, as long as I got a big hunk of it money to do with what I wish.

That's greed. I don't know what the Hell you're talking about.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
weaselman
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July 5th, 2012 at 6:32:55 PM permalink
Quote: ewjones080

As I understand it, Canadians like their healthcare system and it works for them. So what's the difference between that and Obamacare?


The difference is that you don't have to have insurance to receive care in Canada. That system is humane and efficient.
Here, in US, there is a billion dollar industry inserted between a patient and a caregiver ... and everybody just walks around with naive round eyes, and wonders loudly where did all the money go. Is it really that big freaking mystery?

Obamacare is nothing but a red herring. It will polarize people, and give them something to talk about, making it look like Obama has really accomplished something, when in fact, it will have no effect on anything whatsoever, just maintaining the status quo. As it is often the case lately with the American government, a mountain is giving birth to a mouse.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
QuadDeuces
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July 6th, 2012 at 12:25:40 AM permalink
This is a stupid poll.

A right is something that someone else, particularly government, cannot tell you not to do as long as it doesn't interfere with someone else's enjoyment of their rights. It doesn't mean that someone else has to pay for it.

Take freedom of the press, for example. Nobody can tell you you can't publish a flyer, or start a newspaper or blog. But just because it's your right doesn't mean everyone else has to fund it.

A privilege is something one cannot do without prior permission. Examples would include practicing law or medicine, drilling teeth, performing surgery, and in some jurisdictions being a prostitute. Other examples might be transporting and storing explosives.

If everyone has to pay for me to exercise my rights, you can start with a Barrett M82A1. It's my *right* to own it, after all. Break out your wallets, it's a long list.

What you're really trying to ask is if healthcare is an entitlement. Aka welfare. Your entitlements don't get along very well with my property rights.
weaselman
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July 6th, 2012 at 3:47:33 AM permalink
Quote: QuadDeuces


What you're really trying to ask is if healthcare is an entitlement. Aka welfare. Your entitlements don't get along very well with my property rights.


Welfare isn't an entitlement. Perhaps, you meant Social Security, unemployment or primary education. Technically, any right, guaranteed by the government, is an entitlement (including freedom of speech). It has nothing to do with your property rights (which are also entitlements) whatsoever.
But I agree with you correction - the poll would be better phrased if it asked whether healthcare should be an entitlement, like education or Social Security. I think, it absolutely should. If I had to choose, I'd much rather get rid of the primary education, and unemployment entitlements in favor of healthcare (I'd even gladly give up my right to bear arms if I had to :))
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
QuadDeuces
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July 6th, 2012 at 2:18:12 PM permalink
Quote: weaselman

Welfare isn't an entitlement. Perhaps, you meant Social Security, unemployment or primary education. Technically, any right, guaranteed by the government, is an entitlement (including freedom of speech). It has nothing to do with your property rights (which are also entitlements) whatsoever.



Property rights have to be violated (property has to be taken from someone and given to someone else) to pay for your precious boondoggles.

I'll let the rest of your disinformation go because I really don't feel like arguing with you about it.

Quote:

(I'd even gladly give up my right to bear arms if I had to :))



That comes as no surprise.
INkyatari
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July 6th, 2012 at 7:30:08 PM permalink
False dichotomy. Health care is neither a right nor a privilege. It's a responsibility.
weaselman
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July 6th, 2012 at 7:47:32 PM permalink
Quote: QuadDeuces

Property rights have to be violated (property has to be taken from someone and given to someone else) to pay for your precious boondoggles.


I don't know what "boondoggles" means, but your "property" is already being taken in the form of taxes, so nothing is going to change in this respect one way or another.

Quote:

I'll let the rest of your disinformation go


that was such an asshole thing to say, thank you very much. So that I don't have to argue with you anymore.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
weaselman
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July 6th, 2012 at 7:48:09 PM permalink
Quote: INkyatari

False dichotomy. Health care is neither a right nor a privilege. It's a responsibility.


Whose responsibility is it though - that's the question. Some believe, it is the society that is supposed to take care of their sick, while others think, that it is to the society's benefit to let the sick and weak die out naturally.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
QuadDeuces
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July 6th, 2012 at 7:54:17 PM permalink
Another false dichotomy.
buzzpaff
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July 6th, 2012 at 8:07:13 PM permalink
" let the sick and weak die out naturally. "

Then people will complain when the dead bodies on the sidewalks start to stink.
QuadDeuces
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July 6th, 2012 at 8:17:30 PM permalink
Quote: weaselman

I don't know what "boondoggles" means, but your "property" is already being taken in the form of taxes, so nothing is going to change in this respect one way or another.



And they call slippery slope a logical fallacy....
AZDuffman
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July 6th, 2012 at 10:19:23 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Your definition of greed is screwed up.

If I was greedy, I'd just want the transfer of money -- I wouldn't bother with middlemen like insurance or healthcare.

I wouldn't care if the system was equitable across the board, as long as I got a big hunk of it money to do with what I wish.

That's greed. I don't know what the Hell you're talking about.



I guess not because your definition of greed seem so narrow as to only include cash money. Those of us with conservative views tend to be intellectually curious enough to understand this is not the case. Greedy people will demand all sorts of things, including paying for "profit" of medical insurers and providers. Even when such profit is less ROI than most industries.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
rxwine
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July 6th, 2012 at 10:52:22 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

I guess not because your definition of greed seem so narrow as to only include cash money. Those of us with conservative views tend to be intellectually curious enough to understand this is not the case. Greedy people will demand all sorts of things, including paying for "profit" of medical insurers and providers. Even when such profit is less ROI than most industries.



Well, let me try to clear it up.

Me telling someone else to put effort in is called greed even if I don't personally stand to profit. That's the whole thing. One can be for people pooling resources, like in single payer insurance, while oneself may never need to reap the benefits.

If I live healthy, get hit by a bus tomorrow, and kiilled on the spot, and all my rooting for health care comes to nothing. Now how is that last part greed on my part?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AverageJOE
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July 7th, 2012 at 12:16:09 AM permalink
-

I from Europa and in my country we see free medical care being our right.

Its free for every one.
If i need a new heart or brain surgery i cost me nothing.

I vote "Medical care is a right of legal US residents" ...
AP - It's not that it can't be done, but rather people don't really have a clue as to the level of fanaticism and outright obsession that it takes to be successful, let alone get to the level where you can take money out of the casinos on a regular basis. Out of 1,000 people that earnestly try, maybe only one will make it.
weaselman
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July 7th, 2012 at 5:52:42 AM permalink
Quote: QuadDeuces

And they call slippery slope a logical fallacy....


"They" are correct.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
AZDuffman
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July 7th, 2012 at 5:59:00 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine


Me telling someone else to put effort in is called greed even if I don't personally stand to profit. That's the whole thing. One can be for people pooling resources, like in single payer insurance, while oneself may never need to reap the benefits.



The whole "single payer" idea is about greed. People want to buy something at less than market price just because they think they have a "right" to do so. It would be as if they demanded a "public option restaurant" with lower prices because they thought McDonald's was charging too much.

"Free Stuff" is NOT A RIGHT. Not even if you "need" it like people think "health insurance is a need."
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AZDuffman
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July 7th, 2012 at 6:02:43 AM permalink
Quote: AverageJOE

-

I from Europa and in my country we see free medical care being our right.

Its free for every one.
If i need a new heart or brain surgery i cost me nothing.

I vote "Medical care is a right of legal US residents" ...



I'd make a counter-offer of allowing people to trade premanant resident status. Let there be a list of people in the USA who want a single payer system and people in Europe who would rather live in the USA. As suitable matches came up, both could renounce old and gain new citizenship in the same afternoon.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AverageJOE
AverageJOE
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July 7th, 2012 at 8:21:34 AM permalink
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I don't know if so many would be interested to do just that as we live in one of the greatest countries that exists.

Sweden
AP - It's not that it can't be done, but rather people don't really have a clue as to the level of fanaticism and outright obsession that it takes to be successful, let alone get to the level where you can take money out of the casinos on a regular basis. Out of 1,000 people that earnestly try, maybe only one will make it.
rxwine
rxwine
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July 7th, 2012 at 8:59:36 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

The whole "single payer" idea is about greed. People want to buy something at less than market price just because they think they have a "right" to do so. It would be as if they demanded a "public option restaurant" with lower prices because they thought McDonald's was charging too much.

"Free Stuff" is NOT A RIGHT. Not even if you "need" it like people think "health insurance is a need."



It's no more greed than when your tax money goes to indirect benefits to someone else. Whether your tax money funds a war or medical care or a road. whether it's a road across the state you never use, a war you don't agree with, or medical care for someone else.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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July 8th, 2012 at 11:27:10 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

" let the sick and weak die out naturally."


Oh, you've already studied up about the IPAB.
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