buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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June 25th, 2012 at 9:37:51 AM permalink
I saw the COWBOY flying a kite outside Walmart yesterday. Sad to see him with a sign again. I have never asked his name. He is always wearing clean cowboy shirt, jean, boots, and cowboy hat. Clean shaven, even. I do know he used to work construction and that he is married and his daughter was born 2 years ago on Dec. 23.

I know that because my daughter recognized his wife as she shared a maternity room with her and my grand-daughter was born that same day. I have also seen Cowboy volunteering at habitat, so I know he is not afraid of hard work. just having trouble finding some.
Whwn he was flying his kite last summer, I had a son-in-law pushing carts at Walmart. He told me whenever Cowboy got a few dollars flying his kite, he went into Walmart and bought, milk, formula, etc.

I probably bored some of you already with my SIGNS of the economy last summer. I sell DVDs , books, etc on Amazon. I buy them at yard sales. Last year it seemed at every 3rd or 4th yard sales, Daddy was selling one of his toys. Jeep, truck, motorcycle, etc. And i never saw so many yard sales with cardboard boxes full of stuff. People were evidently selling what they had previously had in storage.

This summer i see less sales. Do see a lot more of little old ladies selling their lifetime collection of nick-nacks. Sad! And torism is supposedly up in Grand junction, but both Smashburgers closed this year. One was next to courthouse and a block from Main street tourist traps and a block from business Hiway. The other Smashburger was directly across the street from Meas University athletic field and a block from the main campus.

Directly across from the campus Taco john's closed. a half block away and across the street from the stadium that had JUCO world Series and a minor league baseball team, the dine-in Pizza hut closed. But I have my own sign of hard times. Wondering if you want to share yours.

A little background on mine. I help my church feed poor and or homeless in the park 1 Sunday a month. Been doing it 3 years. Number of veterans, mentally troubled, families about the same. Never sure what we will have to serve till Saturday afternoons after contributions from local merchants. Then i usually head to Walmart to fill in the gaps, make sure we have stuff for the kids, etc.

Last year I would see all the cheapest items now just empty spaces at Walmart on Saturday nites. This year i see the same thing, but empty spaces have doubled in length. 3 empty rows of cheapest spaghetti sauce is now 6 empty rows. 88 cent hot dogs no longer just 3 rows in meat case, but a full center aisle display case.

Just wondering what your signs are that things are getting worse. I mean I have even seen a Rent-a Center and pay day loan store close here.

Thanks for sharing if you care to.
DJTeddyBear
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June 25th, 2012 at 9:58:58 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

A SERIOUS QUESTION



Um.....


What was the question?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
buzzpaff
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June 25th, 2012 at 10:02:39 AM permalink
OOPS, forgot you are in the entertainment industry. LOL

What signs do you see in your everyday life that make you think the economy sucks?

Less people booking DJ's? Tip jar empty, etc.

Or worse yet, less people interested in playing POKER FOR ROULETTE ...
98Clubs
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June 25th, 2012 at 11:52:16 AM permalink
Our town has had two package stores close in the last 6 months. None have opened in over 5 years.
One of our two Hallmark stores (both been here as far as I can remember, say back to the early 60's) is closed.
Quarter-Pounder-Fries and a Coke at Mickey-D's is $7.50, it was $6 before remodelling, and business is down... the wifi draws the 99c coffee drinkers, thats about all they buy.
Walmart in the next town East is going gang busters, the two regional-chain grocery stores here are losing out. Once the public realizes they can save $35 a week on groceries, that'll do it.
And when they get to that town, they find gas is 15c cheaper. Can you say, "save $50 a week over there"?
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
EvenBob
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June 25th, 2012 at 12:13:20 PM permalink
Around here its half empty or empty strip malls. 5 years
ago they were all full, now only the ones on the main
drags are. The rest lost most or all the small businesses
that are the backbone of the economy. My mechanic
has more work than he can handle, people are hanging
onto their used cars.

A chain grocery closed their local store in March, 3 mom
and pop restaurants near my house are gone, a bookstore,
a gym, a a sewing store, an eyeglasses joint, a packaging
store. Yet the pizza places are thriving, none of the
mom and pop ones closed, in fact a new one just opened.
Go figure.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FleaStiff
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June 25th, 2012 at 1:13:28 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

What signs do you see in your everyday life that make you think the economy sucks?


Fewer police issuing citations to people who feed the homeless and thus reward them for indolence and congregating in public spaces and impairing the quality of life of rich people.
buzzpaff
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June 25th, 2012 at 1:35:30 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Fewer police issuing citations to people who feed the homeless and thus reward them for indolence and congregating in public spaces and impairing the quality of life of rich people.




I will take that as sarcasm. Lots of homeless are victims of circumstances beyond their control.
tsmith
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June 25th, 2012 at 1:38:37 PM permalink
I'm not sure that empty storefronts or stores going out of business is necessarily an indication of the economy. There could be a million other reasons, such as poor management, loss of suppliers or suppliers raising wholesale prices, rent increases, moving to better locations or bigger cities, the wrong type business for the local demographic, death or retirement of the owner, overbuilding of strip malls 10 years ago, unwillingness to lower prices in order to compete with the larger stores, etc.

In my town we have a new restaurant opening every 6 months and they all go out of business within 6 months, not because of the economy but because they served crappy food. The fast food places and family-owned restaurants that take the time to prepare good food are all still in operation and doing fine.

Two years ago we had a store called Goody's, a retail clothing chain, close down because of a nationwide reduction in their outlets, yet last year Goody's opened a new store across the street from the old location in a building with twice the square footage.

Since this is a gambling site I will say that I see one indication of the economy at the casinos in Tunica, Mississippi. It used to be that majority of the clientele was senior citizens but there was usually a good representation of the under-40 crowd too, not just on weekends but during the week too. Now I hardly see anyone under 40 there unless they're locals at the buffet for a night out with the kids.
Gabes22
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June 25th, 2012 at 1:42:39 PM permalink
Here in the NW Chicago Burbs, I am starting to see signs of the economy coming back to life, I am seeing commercial and residential real estate starting to come back (not to 2004 or 2005 levels, but coming back nonetheless), I have seen residential developments on hold for years, be completed this spring. WHile there are still some vacant commercial lot, I am seeing fewer and fewer of those. Now granted, I live in a fairly affluent area, and when I do go down to the city, it seems a lot more depressed than I remember it from a few years ago, and coupled with the fact we seem to have 40-50 shooting incidents every weekend this summer, it is decreasing my want to go down there.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
Tiltpoul
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June 25th, 2012 at 1:48:11 PM permalink
I'm going to disagree respectfully that things are getting worse. Consolidation is a natural reaction to poor economic conditions. Just because store fronts are closing does NOT mean that things are getting worse. Chances are the company's were being mismanaged in the 90s and 00s and it's just a natural step in fixing an overloaded system.

I think there are cities that are more resilient to economic downturns. I live in Ohio (now) and there seem to be open positions across the board. People are always poaching our business for new employees, and after 3 years here, I have seen so many people leave for bigger and better opportunities. I also work in a business that deals with a lot more professionals, and our business is soaring in our market (like 20% better than last year, which was 15% better than the year before, and 30% better than the year before that). The first two numbers are a little inflated, but this year it really isn't.

However, there are other cities where we are located that are really struggling, some down as much as 25%. So I get why some people might be worried. Overall, I think it's hard to say, but I feel confident that the company I work for, which is expanding a safe rate, will be around for years to come.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
buzzpaff
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June 25th, 2012 at 1:49:11 PM permalink
It's obvious the economy is lagging further behind for the less affluent.

I never really understood supply side economics, but it seems demand is what needed today ?
FleaStiff
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June 25th, 2012 at 2:15:19 PM permalink
Quote: tsmith

I'm not sure that empty storefronts or stores going out of business is necessarily an indication of the economy.

Its not, but some municipalities have enacted ordinances forbidding landlords to soap windows, use plywood or in any other fashion indicate the premises are not presently occupied for commercial purposes.
Face
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June 25th, 2012 at 3:01:51 PM permalink
Friends of mine cheering that gas is at $3.35/gal. Something about that bothers me in a way I can't put words to.

As far as visual cues go, I've actually seen signs of growth in my little town. A garage that went out of business turned into a mom and pop diner, and is getting good business and praise on Facebook. The abandoned car dealership is now a pawn shop. The abandoned grocerette is now a toy store. The small pharmacy choked out by Rite Aid has been filled with something, although I don't remember what. A restaurant that burned down is still a vacant lot,and no one has yet bought the old Burger King, but those are the only vacant commercial spaces that are as of yet unused.

I've also seen a surge in private business. More and more hand made signs dot the driveways advertising small engine repair, Mr Fix-Its, piano lessons, etc. I see "Claude" daily, driving his lawnmower through town, going house to house earning a few bucks per trim. And like you said with the yard sale, there's been a definite change in scenery. Used to be old, outgrown items you'd buy for a buck or two. Now there's always a bike or a Jeep or home theatre mixed into the pile.

Personally, I've been fighting to prevent becoming the COWBOY. Hotels turned into sleeping in garages, well stocked fridge now has but milk, eggs and water, and I was going further into debt at a rate of $1k a month. Now, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I MIGHT still have to sell my guitars, but my guns are safe. I've actually kept a two digit positive balance for some weeks, and had enough cash to take my boy to the races last week. Hell, I even have home internet now! With any luck, I might have TV again by the end of summer, and if my plan works out, I might even be debt free by years end.

It's been a long fall, but the further you fall, the higher you bounce =)
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EvenBob
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June 25th, 2012 at 3:28:08 PM permalink
Quote: Face

The abandoned car dealership is now a pawn shop.



I had to laugh when I read this. During the Great
Depression, pawn shops thrived. Pawn owners
got rich buying gold and silver. A lot of the mom
and pop businesses showing up are last ditch
attempts by people who've been out of work for
a long time and the benefits have stopped. So
they take their life savings and open all kinds
of fly by night businesses that are doomed for
failure. Then they're left with nothing.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
bigfoot66
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June 25th, 2012 at 3:50:50 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

I will take that as sarcasm. Lots of homeless are victims of circumstances beyond their control.



Not really. Think about it, you have to lose everything (which happens to a lot of deserving people) PLUS burn every bridge to every sibling, cousin, parent, and close friend to the point that all these people are willing to put you out on the street. Pissing off that many people is not beyond your control.
Vote for Nobody 2020!
EvenBob
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June 25th, 2012 at 3:55:28 PM permalink
Quote: bigfoot66

Not really. Think about it,



But it is. Under Reagon, he got rid of gov't funded mental
institutions and dumped all the mentally handicapped
people on the streets. We're still seeing the results of
that today.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
buzzpaff
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June 25th, 2012 at 3:57:46 PM permalink
Lots of the homeless are mentally challenged veterans, who gave you the right to post this dribble. Many come from single parent families. Other are disabled and always a paycheck away from being homeless.

Yes the drunks and meth addicted are there too. SO WHAT !


Go talk to some people at homeless shelters and walk away realizing how lucky you are !!!
Face
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Face
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June 25th, 2012 at 4:16:43 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

But it is. Under Reagon, he got rid of gov't funded mental
institutions and dumped all the mentally handicapped
people on the streets. We're still seeing the results of
that today.



My town had a very large hospital like this, as well as one in the neighboring town. It's now a prison, and yeah, all the previous residents were pretty much dumped out. That's the life I grew up with, riding bikes in town and running into Jesus, Bruce the Sailor, Teddy Teller, Betty Bags, Hightower, Chadwick...just a long list of interesting characters. It was a long time until I realized what a weird situation it was, how a large percentage of the people you see out walking are mental. Every one of them except Betty and Chad are still roaming the streets today, some 15-20 years later.
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bigfoot66
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June 25th, 2012 at 4:49:02 PM permalink
Reagon, eh? There are some crazy folks out there. We don't disagree on these cases. But most of us could lose our jobs and turn to friends and family, the church, or charities for help. If you are the kind of person who blew all of these chances...well, its partially your fault at best.
Vote for Nobody 2020!
bigfoot66
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June 25th, 2012 at 4:50:11 PM permalink
Besides, we are talking about the economy. Are there more crazies out there because the economy took a dive?
Vote for Nobody 2020!
EvenBob
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June 25th, 2012 at 4:51:19 PM permalink
Quote: Face

My town had a very large hospital like this, as well as one in the neighboring town. It's now a prison, and yeah, all the previous residents were pretty much dumped out.



It used to be easy to commit yourself or for your
family to committ you. I always suspected it
was the insurance companies behind it, they
got tired of paying Jane and Jacks shrink bills
and so they made it much harder to get yourself
into an institution.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
midwestgb
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June 25th, 2012 at 5:09:37 PM permalink
In my city... We have an ongoing problem in the Hood. Shades of Detroit and Chicago and St. Louis there. More generally, I see buildings that remain indefinitely vacant... Restaurants mostly. Btw, visit Austin TX for a good look at the street corner Homeless.

It is still tough out there.
FleaStiff
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June 25th, 2012 at 5:26:18 PM permalink
Was it hard to get into an institution?

Consider the very Populist state of Wisconsin wherein it was ruled that an operator of an asylum could legally restrain a wife who was delivered to him by her husband despite the fact that the wife did not meet the criteria for detention in other respects.

Consider the famed "On Being Sane In Insane Places" study where San Francisco area housewives, grad students, etc. complained of hearing voices but once admitted ceased all pretending and acted normally. Staff never detected them but patients often asked if they were investigators or reporters. At the conclusion of the study the institutions were given forms to fill out on the "ringers" that would be soon sent in as a second wave. Many psychiatrists filled in the forms for various admittees that they thought were or might be ringers but the study never had any second wave of volunteers sent in. Large and often useless institutions seem to have worked marginally better than the drugs that replaced incarceration and in a large scale study in Wales (which remained largely rural and poor) readmission rates were far higher on drugs than the therapy previously used.

In the early days of biofeedback, many people learned to inhibit their vegus nerve and get admitted for free hospital stays. Same with people who learned to smuggle a bottle of vanilla syrup into the hospital and take a swig prior to medical tests.
Nareed
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June 25th, 2012 at 5:28:36 PM permalink
There's that Keynesian in the White House...
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
buzzpaff
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June 25th, 2012 at 5:38:16 PM permalink
Yeah Wall Street got us in this mess. Wall street will get us out. LOL
bigfoot66
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June 25th, 2012 at 5:52:24 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Yeah Wall Street got us in this mess. Wall street will get us out. LOL



I assume you mean "the people on Wall street". What did they do to "get us into this mess?"
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buzzpaff
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June 25th, 2012 at 6:00:05 PM permalink
Look up Derivatives. Plus buying lots of home mortgages from the broker across the street, then using your magic formula to make them worth 3 or 4 times as much. then sell them to Iceland, plus keep a lot of the inflated shit on the books so you can but riskier stuff.
MauiSunset
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June 25th, 2012 at 6:17:28 PM permalink
Welcome to Obamaville - the Socialists Utopia.

Take a close look at what Socialism is and does to a country - to some folks this is heaven - no working anymore, free food stamps,the best health care in the world for free, an Obama-phone in every pocket, and a government check in the mail every month.

This is what happens when Socialists play with a country - spread the misery around.

Americans voted for this and I'm not sure the majority want it changed.

In the mean time all you can do is hoard your cash and get ready for the eventual implosion like the USSR went through and so will Amerika.

Komrads rejoice - wait until they hand out the free vodka, only then will we know we have bottomed out.............
thecesspit
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June 25th, 2012 at 6:22:21 PM permalink
When the US becomes Socialist, I'll let you know. It's easy using buzz-words, eh?

You are still confusing a large welfare state (and in fact, large government) with a socialist economy.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
MauiSunset
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June 25th, 2012 at 6:28:53 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

When the US becomes Socialist, I'll let you know. It's easy using buzz-words, eh?

You are still confusing a large welfare state (and in fact, large government) with a socialist economy.



>50% the US Households now get some kind of monthly government check.

>50% of all US "tax payers" pay no Federal Income Tax.

>US Corporations pay the highest taxes of any country on earth.

We are Socialists; we rob Peter to pay Paul................
thecesspit
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June 25th, 2012 at 6:33:06 PM permalink
Quote: MauiSunset

>50% the US Households now get some kind of monthly government check.

>50% of all US "tax payers" pay no Federal Income Tax.

>US Corporations pay the highest taxes of any country on earth.

We are Socialists; we rob Peter to pay Paul................



High taxation, and progressive wealth redistribution is not socialism. I've told you this before. It maybe abhorrent to you. It may not be something you like. But calling it socialism when it isn't is purely barking out scare words, rather than saying WHY the situation you describe is Bad and Wrong.

The situation you describe can happen under a Republican or Democrat rule. Left or right. Socialism is about the -ownership- of the production and services in a country.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
MauiSunset
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June 25th, 2012 at 6:37:49 PM permalink
You use your definition of Socialism and I'll use mine - how about that...........
thecesspit
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June 25th, 2012 at 6:39:30 PM permalink
Quote: MauiSunset

You use your definition of Socialism and I'll use mine - how about that...........



Sure, whatever floats narrative. I just think you lose the power of your argument by concentrating constructing on a boogey-man, than exemplifying the benefits of an alternative.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
MauiSunset
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June 25th, 2012 at 6:48:42 PM permalink
Socialists don't like to be called Socialists - they like to be called "Progressives".

But they all believe that stealing from some citizens to enrich the lives of other citizens is perfectly OK - in fact, it's their mission in life.

Anti-Socialists, like Capitalists, believe that punishing hard working folks with high taxes and then using that money to reward deadbeats is totally wrong for a society.

One thing's for certain - Socialists are 180 degrees opposite to Capitalists and the reason there is no compromise at all - grid lock is better than compromising one's principles.

I know that makes me a hard-ass, and I'm proud of it...........
weaselman
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June 25th, 2012 at 7:09:15 PM permalink
Quote: MauiSunset

Socialists don't like to be called Socialists - they like to be called "Progressives".


thecesspit is right. You are making your (very valid) point much weaker by misusing the term.
You could call them monkeys just as well. Nobody likes to be called that either ...

Quote:

I know that makes me a hard-ass, and I'm proud of it...........


Not much to be proud about I am afraid.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
thecesspit
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June 25th, 2012 at 7:15:28 PM permalink
Quote: MauiSunset

Socialists don't like to be called Socialists - they like to be called "Progressives".



The socialists I know are proud of being red-breasted socialists, keeping the red flag flying and all that. Shrug. I can't really subscribe to their creed myself, and have had many a stand up argument with the Militant wing of the UK Labour Party, Socialist Worker and other types out for the revolution.

Progressives include Socialist, but are not just socialists, but all flavours of left-wing... both economically left and socially liberal.

But I was using the word "Progressive" in relation to the taxation system (where a those on higher incomes pay a margianlly greater rate of tax than those on low incomes). The US taxation system is excessively progressive right now. I think there's a VERY good case that it's harmfully so, and one you could be making, rather than screaming about socialists under the beds. If it is to change... how? What taxes are changed, how do you deal with a tax increase to some sectors? What spending do you cut, if you are reducing the tax take overall? Shouting about The Socialist United States makes you look very silly, when it clearly is no such thing. If you can't attack the right opposition, why would anyone trust your solution? Better to make your own argument water-tight and offer solutions.

Shame the right/left economic fight always gets tangled into the conservative/liberal social fight (or seems that way to me).
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
buzzpaff
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June 25th, 2012 at 8:18:37 PM permalink
Well, once the Republicans are back in the White House the deficit will not matter any more. Just like before !
MauiSunset
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June 25th, 2012 at 8:20:32 PM permalink
The top 1% of US taxpayers pay as much taxes as the bottom 90% do; that's the very definition of a Socialist Country.

Americans might not want to think that they are Socialists but the bottom 50% "tax payers" sure are Socialists - they voted in politicians to steal money from the 1% to pay for their free ride. Socialists believe in larceny - and in large quantities.

But like I said Socialists don't want to be called Socialists - Progressives is the current cute word they like............
mrjjj
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June 25th, 2012 at 8:55:58 PM permalink
Quote: bigfoot66

Not really. Think about it, you have to lose everything (which happens to a lot of deserving people) PLUS burn every bridge to every sibling, cousin, parent, and close friend to the point that all these people are willing to put you out on the street. Pissing off that many people is not beyond your control.





I agree.

Ken
thecesspit
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June 25th, 2012 at 9:21:20 PM permalink
Quote: MauiSunset

The top 1% of US taxpayers pay as much taxes as the bottom 90% do; that's the very definition of a Socialist Country.



No, no it isn't. The 'very definition' of a socialist country does not include how progressive or regressive the taxation structure is.

Quote:

Americans might not want to think that they are Socialists but the bottom 50% "tax payers" sure are Socialists - they voted in politicians to steal money from the 1% to pay for their free ride. Socialists believe in larceny - and in large quantities.

But like I said Socialists don't want to be called Socialists - Progressives is the current cute word they like............



No, no they don't. Real Socialists use the word outwardly and loudly.

Progressives are the opposite of Conservatives. Not all progressives are socialists (meaning they believe in the societal control of major industry). Just like not all Conservatives are Tea Party members.

You just keep using words in ways that are not correct.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
MauiSunset
MauiSunset
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June 25th, 2012 at 9:46:56 PM permalink
Socialism is very simple:

1) Punish the achievers in life with high taxes

2) Reward the losers in life with subsidies paid for by the achievers

Socialism is simply redistribution of Peter's wealth to pay for Paul's pathetic life.

Sadly the old 80/20 rule applies and there are 4 times as many losers as winners and thus just vote to steal the wealth from the achievers.

That's Obamaville, what used to be the USA................
avargov
avargov
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June 25th, 2012 at 9:55:08 PM permalink
Quote: MauiSunset

Socialism is very simple:

1) Punish the achievers in life with high taxes

2) Reward the losers in life with subsidies paid for by the achievers

Socialism is simply redistribution of Peter's wealth to pay for Paul's pathetic life.

Sadly the old 80/20 rule applies and there are 4 times as many losers as winners and thus just vote to steal the wealth from the achievers.

That's Obamaville, what used to be the USA................



Hmmm....aren't billions in subsidies given to corporations every year? Guess that is a big portion of the losers in this argument.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
EvenBob
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June 25th, 2012 at 10:03:34 PM permalink
In a true Socialist country, the gov't controls everything
for the 'good' of the people. They control the land, the
industry and business, the religion, and most of all,
the money. Nazi Germany was a Socialist state. USA is
not. We may be headed there, but thats a long way
down the road.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MauiSunset
MauiSunset
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June 25th, 2012 at 10:11:00 PM permalink
Quote: avargov

Hmmm....aren't billions in subsidies given to corporations every year? Guess that is a big portion of the losers in this argument.



No corporation has ever paid 1 penny in taxes - ever.

America's super high corporate tax rate of 40% is the highest of any country on earth; that's why American jobs are sent to other countries.

A corporation is just a pile of legal papers and ALL taxes charged and/or collected are simply passed on to the consumer in the way of sky high prices American corporations must charge.

Any "loop holes" are simply acknowledgments by the Federal Government that lower taxes generate more sales and result in higher wages paid to the employees and thus more income taxes that the government eventually gets.

People pay taxes, corporations simply pass on ALL taxes to the end consumer or investor via high prices of goods and services or lower dividends to investors and send the taxes to the government......
FleaStiff
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June 25th, 2012 at 10:26:53 PM permalink
Quote: MauiSunset

Socialism is very simple:
1) Punish the achievers in life with high taxes
2) Reward the losers in life with subsidies paid for by the achievers
Socialism is simply redistribution of Peter's wealth to pay for Paul's pathetic life.
Sadly the old 80/20 rule applies and there are 4 times as many losers as winners and thus just vote to steal the wealth from the achievers.


Whether you refer to pure socialism or some sort of massive welfare state, its clear that one can not exist unless certain drastic measures are taken to be rid of the obvious financial drains.
I believe this is why Scandinavian states took drastic measures regarding sterilization of the feeble minded.
Ultrahigh taxes and disincentives for career choice can lead to a wealthy welfare state but that initial "disenrollement" from the insurance program will always be necessary.
MauiSunset
MauiSunset
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June 25th, 2012 at 10:32:21 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Whether you refer to pure socialism or some sort of massive welfare state, its clear that one can not exist unless certain drastic measures are taken to be rid of the obvious financial drains.
I believe this is why Scandinavian states took drastic measures regarding sterilization of the feeble minded.
Ultrahigh taxes and disincentives for career choice can lead to a wealthy welfare state but that initial "disenrollement" from the insurance program will always be necessary.



If you are talking about Norway they simply nationalized all the oil and gas fields in the North Atlantic seas and each citizen get's a check each month of the profits; this will work well until the oil and gas run dry and then it will implode like all Socialistic countries.

You can't build a vibrant country by stealing money from productive citizens/corporations and reward the lazy with welfare checks - it never has worked and never will.

Capitalism is the only form of government that can stand a chance in the long run - but there are just too many lazy citizens to ever let Capitalism blossom it seems....
MauiSunset
MauiSunset
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June 25th, 2012 at 10:42:42 PM permalink
When our son was 5 years old he wanted a Super-Soaker squirt gun - it cost about $25. We told him that we would add $5 to any $1 he could make by doing jobs for other folks.

He decided to sell the excess tomatoes we had in our garden and I followed him as he dragged his little wagon full of tomatoes and sold $5 worth of them in 30 minutes to our neighbors. He bought an even bigger gun.

Solving poverty is simple with the same analogy - get off your lazy butt and work and we will help you for a while.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOO we have to hand out free and unlimited food stamps, rent checks, Obama-phones, health care, and hundreds of government agency checks and encourage laziness.

The result is Obamaville.........
thecesspit
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June 25th, 2012 at 10:52:07 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

In a true Socialist country, the gov't controls everything
for the 'good' of the people. They control the land, the
industry and business, the religion, and most of all,
the money. Nazi Germany was a Socialist state. USA is
not. We may be headed there, but thats a long way
down the road.



The National Socialists (and Italian Fascists) proposed a "third way" that was neither Capitalism or Communism. They had state control of wages and job conditions, but let industry run it's own affairs. The class system (or some version of it) was in effect, tied in with concepts of racial. The Nazi's were big on equality of opportunity, not equality of result. Certainly, they had some Socialist elements to their doctrine, though the pure, socialistic, anti-Capitalism of the 20's faded into a more Corporatist system by the time Hitler got elected and Mussolini had already moved away from the pure Socialistic/Communism in the 20's.

I have no idea what the wealth redistribution was like in Nazi Germany... but as you say, the government controlled much of country's operations, directly or indirectly (which was basically the aim of the Nazi Party... take political control, and drag economic control and social control along with you). There was less pure centralized planning of industrial output - the big Industry would generally run their own affairs, but very motivated by what the government was willing to buy.

Of course, the clue for the roots of the Nazi party is in the name... National Socialism - socialism based on the concept of ultra-right nationalism.

I've read some interesting ideas that suggest the current progressive/left wing ideals are a evolution from the failures of fascism and national socialism.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
weaselman
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June 26th, 2012 at 3:45:55 AM permalink
Quote: MauiSunset

The top 1% of US taxpayers pay as much taxes as the bottom 90% do; that's the very definition of a Socialist Country.


You are not listening, are you? It is not the definition, nothing to do with it whatsoever. It does not mean, it is a good thing, just nothing to do with socialism. The definition of a socialist country is government monopoly on business (manufacturing and services).

Quote:


Americans might not want to think that they are Socialists but the bottom 50% "tax payers" sure are Socialists - they voted in politicians to steal money from the 1% to pay for their free ride.


It does not make them socialists. Just lazy free riders.

Quote:

Socialists believe in larceny - and in large quantities.


No, they don't actually. Socialists actually believe in fairness an innate goodness and honesty of people. It is a very naive and misguided believe, but there is nothing immoral about it, the opposite is true.


Quote:

But like I said Socialists don't want to be called Socialists


Oh, wrong again. They do like it, very much so!
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
weaselman
weaselman
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June 26th, 2012 at 3:47:28 AM permalink
Quote: MauiSunset

No corporation has ever paid 1 penny in taxes - ever.


LOL
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
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