Blackjack table dealt joker on a non joker table and voided the deck
The casino declared the deck null and void. The casino is giving back to the players $235 that is rightfully his.
I noticed nobody rushing to take me up on my bet that the casino did not report this to gaming.
Or is it only the player who is supposed to be honest !
This is same as the case of the Spanish 21 table with the tens in the deck. That isn't a real game either. That casino was penalized for running an invalid game even though in that case it worked out to be in the players' advantage.
Quote: buzzpaffIt's not like this was a malfunction on a slot machine. and a Mega Million payoff falsely shows up.
The casino declared the deck null and void. The casino is giving back to the players $235 that is rightfully his.
I noticed nobody rushing to take me up on my bet that the casino did not report this to gaming.
Or is it only the player who is supposed to be honest !
The 3rd line above says it all....I hear nothing but Crickets.......
Quote: ChampagneFireballIt doesn't matter what the effect of a joker is on the cards. The simple fact is that there are no rules are for Blackjack with jokers in the deck. It isn't a real game. The casino was running an invalid game and should stop it immediately and give back the money to those playing it. They would be lucky not to be fined.
So you're winning in this shoe... you are then obligated to give back all the money you won! I'm SURE the OP and all you guys who are arguing for the casino to give money back would be MORE THAN HAPPY to give your won money back. Especially after they get your tracked play and demand that the deck was voided...
It can't work both ways. The posters who I respect on this forum are all saying the same thing: Take the $235 and consider yourself lucky. But much like Blackjack players who are convinced Basic Strategy was developed by the casino and won't follow it at all, you'll never convince them otherwise.
Quote: ChampagneFireballIt doesn't matter what the effect of a joker is on the cards. The simple fact is that there are no rules are for Blackjack with jokers in the deck. It isn't a real game. The casino was running an invalid game and should stop it immediately and give back the money to those playing it. They would be lucky not to be fined.
This is same as the case of the Spanish 21 table with the tens in the deck. That isn't a real game either. That casino was penalized for running an invalid game even though in that case it worked out to be in the players' advantage.
But California DOES have blackjack games with jokers. The game with Jokers, apparently called Los Angeles Blackjack, is even offered at Hollywood Park Casino. Here's a link to the game info on Hollywood's own site.
Quote: ChampagneFireballThe casino ... should stop it immediately and give back the money to those playing it.
Which they did.
This is not at all like the Spanish 21 incident, because adding 10's to Spanish 21 affects the game. Adding a Joker to a regular blackjack game affects nothing, and it is only because the extraneous card says Joker that some people have a problem with it. If it were the card with the manufacturer's order form on it, everyone would have just chuckled and moved on. It might make the casino look a little unprofessional, but it's not the multi-million-dollar casino mistake that everyone dreams of cashing in on.
Quote: JBWhich they did.
This is not at all like the Spanish 21 incident, because adding 10's to Spanish 21 affects the game. Adding a Joker to a regular blackjack game affects nothing, and it is only because the extraneous card says Joker that some people have a problem with it. If it were the card with the manufacturer's order form on it, everyone would have just chuckled and moved on. It might make the casino look a little unprofessional, but it's not the multi-million-dollar casino mistake that everyone dreams of cashing in on.
Can you provide me with a list off cards beyond the correct 52 that should be laughed at versus those which the casino should follow
it's rules and declare the deck voided ?
It is not a question of the dollar amount, but what was the right thing to do . I commend the casino on doing the right thing.
Now if only they has contacted gaming ! SIGH
Quote: rdw4potusBut California DOES have blackjack games with jokers. The game with Jokers, apparently called Los Angeles Blackjack, is even offered at Hollywood Park Casino. Here's a link to the game info on Hollywood's own site.
To be fair, I think that page is outdated because you can only find it via a Google search. If you go to their home page and click on their list of games, you won't find it.
What you will find, however, is their regular blackjack page -- if you click through the screens you'll notice the first item listed under "New Features" is that "Blackjack pays 6-5". What a feature!
Is it safe to assume that this is the game the OP was playing, since the version that uses a joker is clearly ruled out?
There is no gaming.Quote: buzzpaff
I noticed nobody rushing to take me up on my bet that the casino did not report this to gaming.
CA Casinos do not have to answer to anyone in CA unless they are sued.
The HP Casino used to be just a card club as all the others in the LA area.
They gave Millions, if not billions, of $$$ to CA lawmakers so they could be a Casino just like the casinos the Indians got.
To them, it was not fair the Indians got the Casinos and they only had a card club.
They are the fox watching over the chicken pen.
In CA, if you play at a CA casino, you assume all risk. You vs. them.
The OP has not stated he took photos, names, times etc. He lost.
The Gambling Control Act (the Act), Business & Professions Code sections 19800 through 19985 governs the licensing and operation of California cardrooms under the regulation of the California Gambling Control Commission.
Quote: JBThis is not at all like the Spanish 21 incident, because adding 10's to Spanish 21 affects the game. Adding a Joker to a regular blackjack game affects nothing, and it is only because the extraneous card says Joker that some people have a problem with it. If it were the card with the manufacturer's order form on it, everyone would have just chuckled and moved on.
Adding a joker to a regular blackjack game does affect the game the same as having a manufacturer's order form in there: It makes the game invalid. The casino itself admitted the game was invalid because they stopped the shoe immediately. They didn't chuckle and keep on dealing. They stopped. They knew they messed up, and they proceeded to fix it.
That said, I am only arguing for the cash back for affected shoes (it could have been more than one). Who knows what else was wrong with that shoe. Did the joker replace a another card in the deck: a five or a king or an ace maybe? Did anyone check that? Is there video to confirm?
Quote: buzzpaffCan you provide me with a list off cards beyond the correct 52 that should be laughed at versus those which the casino should follow
it's rules and declare the deck voided ?
Any card which isn't one of the standard 52. All cards outside of the standard 52 are meaningless for (regular) blackjack.
This is not the same thing as adding an extra 2 or 10, or removing an Ace, or anything else that would affect the math. This is having an extraneous, effectively blank card in the deck by accident. It's only because a Joker has meaning in other games that it seems meaningful in this situation. Again, it briefly makes the casino look unprofessional, but they replaced the deck immediately because they were just as surprised as the players were.
Had I been at the table I wouldn't have expected a dime of compensation because I understand that this was a non-event. If they offered to refund all of my prior losses, like they did with the OP, I would have considered them a class act.
Quote: 7craps
The HP Casino used to be just a card club as all the others in the LA area.
They gave Millions, if not billions, of $$$ to CA lawmakers so they could be a Casino just like the casinos the Indians got.
To them, it was not fair the Indians got the Casinos and they only had a card club.
When does the indian-style casino part open? All they have now is cards, just like Commerce and Bicycle and Hawaiian Gardens. And, like every card casino in California, they're state regulated.
And if they did not, after declaring the deck VOIDED, I would consider them thieves !
*When does the indian-style casino part open?*Quote: rdw4potusWhen does the indian-style casino part open? All they have now is cards, just like Commerce and Bicycle and Hawaiian Gardens. And, like every card casino in California, they're state regulated.
Never!
Exactly my point. Excellent rdw4potus.
They never got the slots they wanted as the Indians did. Just card games.
Let us talk about all the state rules on everything a CA casino must do.
Point is. There is no gaming control in CA. Just some written rules to follow.
Scenario
I play Blackjack at XX casino. (yes a CA casino)
I am accused of card counting and cheating using my cell phone.
They take all my money, and winnings, and say I can never come into their casino again as they physically throw me out.
As a player, I cry to the CA Department of Justice Bureau of Gambling Control.
"Mission Statement: To ensure the integrity of gambling in California"
They laugh at me and tell me to find something else to do.
And I did. I found 24 hours of South Park.
Hey, my money!!
Now who to turn to.
A lawyer. Not enough money in it they tell me.
I know, I will try Santa Clause and if that fails, Tinkerbell will help.
Beware of ALL CA casinos.
They wants only one thing.
And they gets what they wants.
http://www.library.ca.gov/crb/97/03/Chapt5.html
"California Has no Special State Agency to Regulate Cardclubs in the State. Although the Department of Justice has a role, it is not the regulator in the same sense that other states have regulatory agencies that oversee gambling activity. This situation has led some outside researchers to point to California as an anomaly. As one researcher, who overstated the number of cardclub rooms, noted:
"For a bad example of gambling regulation, California stands out. There are over 400 legal cardrooms in that state, with no special agency to regulate them."11
California's Gaming Registration Act was enacted to provide a minimum level of regulation by registering owners and operators as a prerequisite to licensing. The Gaming Registration Act is administered at the state level through the California Attorney General. Annual registration is required. This annual process involves updating of information which trigger additional background checks."
Quote: ChampagneFireballAdding a joker to a regular blackjack game does affect the game the same as having a manufacturer's order form in there: It makes the game invalid. The casino itself admitted the game was invalid because they stopped the shoe immediately. They didn't chuckle and keep on dealing. They stopped. They knew they messed up, and they proceeded to fix it.
The net result is the same as if they just removed the joker and kept dealing. That's what I mean when I say that its presence didn't affect anything, so long as the other 52 (or 104, since it was a double-deck game) cards were present.
Quote: ChampagneFireballThat said, I am only arguing for the cash back for affected shoes (it could have been more than one). Who knows what else was wrong with that shoe. Did the joker replace a another card in the deck: a five or a king or an ace maybe? Did anyone check that? Is there video to confirm?
There is a lack of information about this. I think it would have been wise to spread all of the cards face-up and verify them, or replace the 2 decks and verify the new ones face-up. I don't know if they use pre-shuffled decks like the Gempak. I still don't see why previous losses should be refunded. If the player had won on prior hands/shoes, should they be forced to give their winnings back, and do you think this would go over well with the player?
If my Aunt had balls , she'd be my uncle.
Quote: WizardofEnglandCant believe we are still debating this...... ZZzzzz
LoL... yeah, I just realized I've entered the uncanny valley on this subject... it's a loose interpretation of the theory but hear me out...
First, the OP said he was playing when the joker came out. He then filed a complaint with the manager. He THEN proceeded to continue to play in the casino, poker, which he lost another $600 of which, initially, he was upset about, though he has since retracted that statement.
THEN, he was upset that a card that has no value on that game "ruined the deck" and could have changed his outcomes, while I was somewhat under the impression it was a multi-shoe game. Okay, so far I'm still reeled in on this subject. NOW, it was a double-deck game, where 16 hands in the same deck is next to impossible, and highly unlikely in multiple shuffles in the same deck (though not impossible or improbable).
In most of the other posts, he attacks everybody who disagrees that he should be entitled to a share of the casino, whilst others chime in about how he should sue for damages. And yet the most sane people on the forum all agree that he's lucky the casino is even offering him any money (which to me, $235 seems like a very arbitrary number. Unless the OP was making bets of $65 and variances of that).
Eventually, there comes a point where you can believe and believe while things get more fantastical... then all of a sudden you dip into a point where it's so lavish you reject the notion that it is at all possible. That's called the uncanny valley. Sometimes, you get out and there is acceptance...
We'll see if I get to that point with this...
Dear Sir, where did he say that? Not on this thread .
Wake up Wiz of England. It's tea time..
Quote: buzzpaff" he attacks everybody who disagrees that he should be entitled to a share of the casino"
Dear Sir, where did he say that? Not on this thread .
Quote: wbuballa23@tiltpoul read my post before making dumb statement.
Quote: wbuballa23@wizardofengland have you not read anything I have been saying
Quote: wbuballa23@JB people please read my post as I have stated numerous amounts of tie that after the joker came out I stopped playing blackjack I did not continue to play blackjack.. I lost the rest of my money playing poker which I am fine with.. please read posts... thank you
I'm pretty sure JB, myself, and WizardofEngland have read every post... therefore, I stand by my earlier statement...
Quote: TiltpoulThe posters who I respect on this forum are all saying the same thing: Take the $235 and consider yourself lucky.
They didn't go above and beyond, they just did what they ought to do in that situation. I wouldn't consider that exactly a gift (even though that joker didn't affect the odds, it did invalidate the game), it's a fair or more than fair compensation. Similar situation as to when you RMA a device that's now only worth a quarter of its purchase price and get the full purchase price back.
Quote: wbuballa23I asked to view the tape after they said it was only $235..
OK, and they agreed to show it. So, assuming that the offer and acceptance means that you watched the tape, what was the loss?
Quote: wbuballa2316 hands in the same deck is not impossible when I am playing by myself..
Yes, it is impossible. two cards for you and two cards for the dealer in each hand. 2+2 is 4. 4x16 is 64. 64 is greater than 52.
After the Joker was discovered, did an Employee (Supervisor, PitBoss, etc.) deal-down the shoe to verify that the correct number of cards were in the deck after the Joker was removed?
Where pray tell does he say he is entitled to a share of the casino. Please tell me the date and time of that post on this thread.
Thank you.
Quote: rdw4potusYes, it is impossible. two cards for you and two cards for the dealer in each hand. 2+2 is 4. 4x16 is 64. 64 is greater than 52.
He said it was double deck; 16 hands heads-up is about 88 cards on average. However, that's about 85% penetration into 104 cards (er, 105), which is unlikely. On the other hand, he said he lost $235 in 16 hands, which unless he's betting big amounts means he lost a lot of hands, and that usually means he frequently busted and/or the dealer often stood on 2 cards (ergo, fewer cards came out). 16 rounds at 4.5 cards (total) per round is still 72 cards, or 69% penetration. That still seems very high to me. Anyone know what the typical penetration is for that game?
I must say that it seems highly irregular for a joker, or any card that doesn't belong, to have made it into play. Where I work we spread the cards and both the dealer and a floor supervisor inspect them to insure that all the cards (and only the correct cards) are put into play.
Anyway, I have a couple questions for the OP:
- How long had these decks been in use?
- Does that game use a shuffler or is it hand shuffled?
- What, specifically, did they do with the cards that were removed, i.e. how did they leave the table?
Quote: wbuballa23@p90 thank you that is all I was saying... I never once said the $235 was not enough I just simply asked what I should do in this situation that is all.... of course I was mad about the way the caisno handled it at first as would anybody be...
Well the answer is, take your $235 and shut the f up!
If anything your lucky to get $235.
....Now if everyone could please flag this post so it disappears in the the hole with Jerry Logan and his multiple identities I think the world would be a better place ;-)
Quote: WizardofEnglandWell the answer is, take your $235 and shut the f up!
If anything your lucky to get $235.
....Now if everyone could please flag this post so it disappears in the the hole with Jerry Logan and his multiple identities I think the world would be a better place ;-)
your a douche bag... I was only asking for help I did not ask for idiots to post there thoughts or comments on whether I deserve to be compensated or not... fuck off wizardofengland... such a gay name by the way
Quote: wbuballa23your a douche bag... I was only asking for help I did not ask for idiots to post there thoughts or comments on whether I deserve to be compensated or not... fuck off wizardofengland... such a gay name by the way
I hope you've enjoyed your time on this forum...bye bye now...
Quote: wbuballa23your a douche bag... I was only asking for help I did not ask for idiots to post there thoughts or comments on whether I deserve to be compensated or not... fuck off wizardofengland... such a gay name by the way
this seems warrant an entry on the suspension list
In the process, I skimmed the thread. This is the first I've heard of such a situation. My inclination is that the fair thing to do would be to call the hand dead where the joker came out dead. Then fan out all the cards to ensure that other wise the deck was otehrwise correct. Assuming it was, which appears to be the case here, I see no reason to say previously dealt hands are dead, since they were not affected by the joker. On the other hand, I think the casino should administer some kind of self punishment. Perhaps given each player at the table a comp for two to a free meal at the coffee shop. To get back the net loss that deck I think is generous of the casino, and I would accept that offer in a second.
Regarding WoE's "shut the f up" comment I'm going to give him an official warning for ungentlemanly behavior and implied profanity.
