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chook
chook
Joined: Jul 5, 2010
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August 31st, 2010 at 7:21:36 PM permalink
What you are failing to take into account is that in the offering of casino games, there is an "implied presumption" that the games are honest - mkl


I think this sums up the problem exactly.
You are also entitled to presume that the Government is monitoring the probity, of these places, successfully.
When playing their games, you should only have to contend with your own stupidity & greed and the erratic behavior of random numbers.
Not consistent extreme deviations from the mean that you would only, normally, expect to find inside the Bermuda Triangle.
I also agree, as has been said previously, that the problem is at a much higher level than just the stickmen.
You can't trust a dog to mind your food.
Headlock
Headlock
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August 31st, 2010 at 7:25:24 PM permalink
The discussion of law will soon drown out all vestiges of the original topic! Anyway, I am reposting shamelessly so we can get to top 4!

The topic of this thread was whether or not gaming commissions, board, controls, etc. were an effective deterrent to casino cheating. The results are in and the consensus opinion (well, just mine) is a resounding NO!

Only cclub79 was eyewitness to a New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement representative taking cards from the table in the casino.

There were several examples of CCC reps (NJ) and a few from other states where the gaming official helped to resolve disputes between the patron and the casino, always at the request of the patron. What little I read about the CCC led me to believe these representatives in the casino were akin to Wal-Mart greeters. I don't mean to offend anyone by that.

Alot of discussion about dealers cheating either on their own or on behalf of the casino. While interesting, I think this was off-topic.

An oft-repeated opinion was that "casinos don't have to cheat, they always have the edge." I can only attribute this to wide-eyed innocence. Casinos are just as likely to cheat as any business given motive and opportunity.

There was some vigorous debate about whether shaved or weighted dice would or would not favor the casino. My opinion is that the casino certainly could use weighted dice in their favor, but I would suspect a juiced table (harder to detect by the player) rather than weighted dice.

Nareed, your contention that, rather than cheat, casinos would change the payoffs and/or paytables is just ridiculous. If casino A pays 1:1 for a blackjack and 8/5 JOB, while casino B pays 6:5 for a blackjack and 9/6 JOB, casino A will lose it's patrons just as surely as if they had been caught cheating. Also, your sarcastic comment about the use of sensors in blackjack tables was not like your level-headed self. I can assure you they are in use; I have seen them. Not the MindPlay software the Wizard mentioned. What I have seen is a button on the table that the dealer presses after making sure all bets are down and before dealing the first card. It records the amount bet in each circle. I do not claim to know how the casino uses this information.

Doc, I read some of the case summaries Zcore13 directed us to. Seemed to be mostly licensing issues.

I'll mention my creds, as if that will mean anything. I am a CPA, an auditor. I have been trained to maintain a degree of skepticism in my work and right or wrong that spills over into other facets of my life. I have been a casual gambler since 1984, for the past 5-6 years I play an average of 35 weekends a year. Until 4 years ago, I played blackjack almost exclusively, and counted cards, mostly unsuccessfully. For the last four years I have been playing craps with just a bit of video poker mixed in.

This is off-topic, perhaps seed for a new thread. I know the house edge at craps, and I fully realize that I am probably going to be a loser in the long run. I play PL and 2 come bets with full odds, 10x at the casino I frequent. I understand this is a high risk/high reward betting strategy, but the house edge is only .18% if the Wizard is to be believed (and I do!). If I lose more than I win, that's to be expected. If I lose almost all the time, it's bad luck. If I lose 20 sessions in a row, it's bad luck. If I lose 40 sessions in a row, it's bad luck.

Isn't there a point where the bad luck leads you to believe something is amiss?
cclub79
cclub79
Joined: Dec 16, 2009
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August 31st, 2010 at 7:26:24 PM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

There are those who speak very highly of you behind your back.



First time for everything.
DorothyGale
DorothyGale
Joined: Nov 23, 2009
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August 31st, 2010 at 7:37:21 PM permalink
Quote: cclub79

First time for everything.

Let's try and keep some things private ... TMI.

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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August 31st, 2010 at 7:41:59 PM permalink
My two cents.

I don't believe that land-based casinos cheat. I think they do everything legally possible to take money from you, and sometimes even cross the ethical line from time to time (Watanabe). Looking at the Nevada Gaming's complaint, there are been few complaints over the years on the strip casinos... Caesar's for letting a baccarat player dance on the table, the Palms for not supervising a third party poker tournament payout, Harrah's for backrooming someone who withdrew a bet after cards were drawn. Big whoop. These are not casinos cheating people, they are individual employees misbehaving.

Every single game at the casino was created with house advantage built in. Dice are weighted properly and cards are not missing from the decks. You are getting dealt a fair game and there is no need to operate illegally and risk reputation. The slot machines with an advantage of 2 to 15 percent allow casinos to make money hand over fist.

Do individuals at casinos cheat? Absolutely, you will find a bad egg in the group. But I think that players likely cheat as much as the dealers do. Just because Harrahs and MGM are large corporations doesn't make them cheats. The gaming authorities verify the slot machines and verify the gaming technology to make it fair to the consumer.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
teddys
teddys
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
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August 31st, 2010 at 7:45:02 PM permalink
Thanks for bringing this thread back on topic. I like law discussions! (By the way, mkl6454321, are you a law professor/J.D.? If not, you are quite the impressive polymath.) Re: the button that they push. I'm 90% sure that's to record the speed of the dealer so they can evaluate his or her performance. It does not/cannot record the amount everyone bets.
Quote: Headlock

If I lose more than I win, that's to be expected. If I lose almost all the time, it's bad luck. If I lose 20 sessions in a row, it's bad luck. If I lose 40 sessions in a row, it's bad luck.
Isn't there a point where the bad luck leads you to believe something is amiss?

Of course. Why wouldn't you think that? It's a natural human response to come up with an explanation for extremely bad luck. But that's oftentimes just what is is. We just can't comprehend extreme variance. Turn the tables a bit: If you won 40 sessions in a row, and the casino kicked you out for cheating, would you feel they were justified in doing so?
-----------------------------------
I don't think casinos cheat and nothing has been said in this thread to convince me that they do, sorry.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Headlock
Headlock
Joined: Feb 9, 2010
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August 31st, 2010 at 7:56:46 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

Thanks for bringing this thread back on topic. I like law discussions! (By the way, mkl6454321, are you a law professor/J.D.? If not, you are quite the impressive polymath.) Re: the button that they push. I'm 90% sure that's to record the speed of the dealer so they can evaluate his or her performance. It does not/cannot record the amount everyone bets. Of course. Why wouldn't you think that? It's a natural human response to come up with an explanation for extremely bad luck. But that's oftentimes just what is is. We just can't comprehend extreme variance. Turn the tables a bit: If you won 40 sessions in a row, and the casino kicked you out for cheating, would you feel they were justified in doing so?
-----------------------------------
I don't think casinos cheat and nothing has been said in this thread to convince me that they do, sorry.



Don't apologize, I'm not trying to convince anyone that casinos cheat. And thanks for helping me get the thread back on topic. Re table sensors, I inquired about the button and was told by both the dealer and pit supervisor that it recorded the bet amounts. I don't play blackjack anymore so I don't look, but I am going to Colorado and Missouri the next two weekends and I will be looking for table sensors not only on BJ tables but the other games as well.
mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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August 31st, 2010 at 7:59:59 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

Thanks for bringing this thread back on topic. I like law discussions! (By the way, mkl6454321, are you a law professor/J.D.? If not, you are quite the impressive polymath.)



Thank you, but I'm jest a humble backwoods English teacher. I have worn many hats in my life, though, some having been nailed to my head. My experience with the law is based on actual combat (I have never hired an attorney, figuring that I could botch my own legal affairs for free).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
DorothyGale
DorothyGale
Joined: Nov 23, 2009
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August 31st, 2010 at 8:06:48 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Thank you, but I'm jest a humble backwoods English teacher.

*Based on your posts, your dialect, and your spelling, notwithstanding your political views, I'd say you live in the Bay area in California, and that you have spent most of your life living on the "left" coast ... you like to travel and visit far away backwoods places, but you also like to come home to a clean middle class and moderate, but slightly liberal, lifestyle ... my guess is you own an SUV, though at this point it's become less science than I'd really like ... because of the tinge of guilt you feel while driving said car ...

Backwoods? I think not ...

--Dorothy

*research courtesy "the google" -- speculations courtesy "the scarecrow"
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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August 31st, 2010 at 8:42:59 PM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

*Based on your posts, your dialect, and your spelling, notwithstanding your political views, I'd say you live in the Bay area in California, and that you have spent most of your life living on the "left" coast ... you like to travel and visit far away backwoods places, but you also like to come home to a clean middle class and moderate, but slightly liberal, lifestyle ... my guess is you own an SUV, though at this point it's become less science than I'd really like ... because of the tinge of guilt you feel while driving said car ...

Backwoods? I think not ...

--Dorothy

*research courtesy "the google" -- speculations courtesy "the scarecrow"



Since you would otherwise live in an agony of speculation, I will provide you with some information...

I grew up in the Bay Area, but I haven't lived there since 1993.

I have lived, at one time or another, in every state west of the Great Plains, except Utah. I would rather be smeared with honey, bound with rope, and buried in an anthill than live in Utah. (It's a spectacularly beautiful place; if all the people would leave, I'd reconsider.)

My lifestyle has never been what anyone would remotely call "normal", and having had a widely fluctuating but largely satisfying career as an advantage gambler, i suppose you could call me middle class--with wide swings around that datum.

My political views can be summed up with two statements: anyone exhibiting a desire to hold political office should be ipso facto banned from holding such office, and neither the vote nor the right to bear children should be automatically conferred on citizens until they have exhibited minimal understanding of the attendant processes and consequences.

I own and have always owned a small compact car. My present one goes zoom zoom. (I hate paying for gas.)

I do like to travel--in fact, I have abandoned lucrative career opportunities because they would have affected my ability to do so. That's one of the cool things about being a teacher--the long vacation.

And you're right--I don't really live in the backwoods--though I often have, in the recent past.

Overall, nice work. B-plus.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw

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