Card Counter detained while losing?

I read the recent issue of Casino Player magazine. In the reader questions section, someone said that they had been barred from blackjack for playing either $25 or $50 per hand, while losing $400. They were taken to a back room, told they were a card counter, photographed, and had the information sent to all casinos. The reader questioned this lunacy. Henry Tamburin was asked by the magazine to reply. He said that there is one specific casino in Tunica that does this, but he didn't name it. Does anybody here know which one it is? I'd like to stay away from any casino that bars you for simply doubling your bet from time to time while losing.

Response:

Hollywood casino in Tunica 86'd a BJ player (who was losing not winning) for counting cards and escorted him to the cage where the cage demanded his ID before cashing his chips, he refused to give it to them so they called the Sheriff's dept. He waited since he wanted his money. The deputy asked for his ID and he handed it to the officer, who then handed it to the cage so they could make a copy. Hollywood used the DL info and sent flyers to the other casinos in town. He hired the above attorneys and filed suit, the casino and the Sheriff's dept paid an out of court settlement. The deputy was wrong for giving the DL to the casino.

I'm taking a trip to tunica tomorrow now I'm not so sure about it. Anyone else heard of this?

Are you a card counter?

If your not, you should hope this happens to you.
I'd love an out of court settlement.

Yes I count and kinda hope if it ever happened to me I would be lucky enough to get an out of court settlement. I just wasn't sure if it is really that bad in tunica!

I would never allow a casino to take me to their "back room" and I wouldn't let them photograph me and take my information when all I'm doing is card counting or pressing my bets or winning too much. They could either escort me off the property or arrest me and that's what I would tell them.

Now I understand that in certain circumstances they need your ID, like if you buy in for more than 10K, and possibly if you're cashing out more than that. I have no problem doing that, so long as I'm not a card counter, but then I wouldn't get myself into that sort of situation in the first place. It seems ridiculous they'd do this to a player just for suspecting he's counting.

Quote: ewjones080

It seems ridiculous they'd do this to a player just for suspecting he's counting.

Particularly since clearly they were aware he was losing.

i pray for the day they try this with me.
as a disabled veteran, i am nearly certain i could get high-six figures.

Advantage player attorney Bob Nersesian will be a guest on my radio show on May 10. One question I'd like to ask, but I'm sure I'll think of lots, is how to act if you're unjustly back-roomed. Based on his book, I think he would say to go under verbal protest, because you broke no law. Keep repeating it. To take someone to a place they don't want to go, when he broke no law, is highly against the law, perhaps kidnapping. They are supposed to have cameras with audio all over the place behind the scenes, especially the holding cell. Don't offer your ID. Casino security has no right to demand it, but they can ask.

When you finally get out, call a lawyer immediately. Card counters should have a phone number at the ready. The tapes will work in your favor should it ever come to court. A gentle illegal back-rooming, that didn't get physical, or include threats of violence, should be worth about 50K-100K.

i think that is great advice from the wizard.
another tactic to consider if you are touched
is to immediately fall on the floor and start convulsing.
claim you hit your head, and that you have persistent headaches,
blurry vision, nausea and dizziness.
this could be worth an additional 200-300K.

Quote: WongBo

another tactic to consider if you are touched
is to immediately fall on the floor and start convulsing.
claim you hit your head, and that you have persistent headaches,
blurry vision, nausea and dizziness.
this could be worth an additional 200-300K.

To what end?

The tape from the eye will clearly show your little drama play is a bunch of crap, thus destroying your credibility as a claimant.

Yeah, try to convincingly fake having convulsions for the camera.

Good plan.

*not*

Another question with respect to providing an id.
I know one needs to be given if cashing out over $10,000.
This past February at the Mirage I was asked for my ID when cashing out $6,500, one of which was a $5,000 chip.
I was not comfortable with providing my ID but did. Mostly because I wanted to get my money and keep moving. Also because I was there on a comp and didn't want to cause a scene that might put future comps in jeapordy.
My guess at the time was they were making sure it was a legitimate chip.

Anyone want to take a shot at what would happen the next time if I refuse to give my ID?
Will I be able to cash out?
Will I get barred?

i was sort of joking,
however, knowing how to fall on the ground could still be a good AP here.
very hard to prove you were not thrown off balance by being touched.
and ultimately it will be up to a jury if they don't settle first.
even if the tape looks like you took a dive,
the tape should also show you asking to leave or speak to attorney the whole time.
you can claim you were so traumatized by the experience that you panicked just to get out of there.
there is no down side.

Quote: rayray83

I'm taking a trip to tunica tomorrow now I'm not so sure about it. Anyone else heard of this?

Although I know how to count cards, I'm too lazy to go through all the rigamaroll of trying to disguise it, varying bets at different degrees and counts. Besides, just because you're counting and the count is super high doesn't mean you are guaranteed a win. The dealer can get the blackjack while you get the 20 just as easy as the reverse; it's just that when you get the BJ you'll have more money out and it's paid at 3:2.

That being said, don't worry about Penn (Hollywood). A supervisor who I knew when I went regularly there 5 years ago one time left a computer screen that I could clearly see. He didn't say a word, but he left it up and kind of gestured toward it. In the distance, I saw a "Call security when playing Double Deck. Possible counter." By the way, I RARELY get above a $50 bet on a $25 table, and that's more of a winning progression, rather than counting. Sure if I KNOW the deck is high I might double (which always backfires on me), but truly THAT'S IT! I would hardly call it counting... I've seen drunks vary bets more than I do.

Anyways, as long as you don't run more than a 5x spread on the good Single Deck games in Tunica, they are unlikely to back you off. The dealers are trained to dump high count decks early anyways. As far as backrooming, you would have to be really unruly or really hitting them for a ton of money.

i missed the mention of this incident in the initial post. here is the full story:

Federal jury awards $729,000 to victim of patron abuse by Hollywood Casino in Tunica

A federal jury returned a verdict totaling over $729,000 in a case involving the abuse of a patron by security personnel at Tunica's Hollywood Casino and a deputy of the Tunica County Sheriff's office.

The victim, who was suspected of counting cards, a lawful activity, but not suspected of any illegal activity, was wrongfully detained by Hollywood Casino employees, who instructed cashiers to refuse to cash the victim's chips unless the victim provided them with his identification.

The victim refused to do so and asked to be paid so that he could leave the casino. Instead, casino employees called the Sheriff's department. Deputy Dornae Mosby responded and demanded identification from the victim, who complied with the deputy's request but instructed the deputy not to show the identification to casino personnel. The deputy ignored this instruction, and allowed casino personnel to take possession of the victim's identification and photocopy it, despite there being no legal basis for so doing. The victim was arrested by Mosby for disorderly conduct. The charge was subsequently dismissed.

The victim sued Hollywood casino, Tunica County, and Deputy Mosby. The jury awarded him $25,000 from Deputy Mosby individually for the violation of his Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment rights to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures. The jury found the casino liable for false arrest, false imprisonment, malicious prosecution, abuse of process, conversion, and trespass to chattels. The final two items involve the wrongful taking of plaintiff's identification by casino personnel. The jury awarded $103,703 in damages to the victim from the casino, plus punitive damages of $600,550.

Case: US District Court for the Northern District of Mississippi, Delta Division --
Civil Action No. 2:06CV204P-A Grosch v. Tunica County et al.

Link to court ruling

Here are some other stories about patron abuse.
Like I said before, you really have to look under a lot of rocks to find forms of life lower than casino operators.

Hmmm ... I wonder, would it be considered cheating if I went to that casino, looking really suspicious, and started playing BJ, moving my lips with each card out, taking really long time to make a bet, not responding to any conversation attempts from others, and varying my bets like crazy?

Quote: weaselman

Hmmm ... I wonder, would it be considered cheating if I went to that casino, looking really suspicious, and started playing BJ, moving my lips with each card out, taking really long time to make a bet, not responding to any conversation attempts from others, and varying my bets like crazy?

I actually think it could work, and like Mike says, I'd make a big a scene as I possibly could. $25-50k is fine, but they decided to get physical, I'd be laughing all the way to the bank.

The question to be asked is this;

How do you look like a counter, without being a counter, and not looking like someone pretending to be a counter?

even if you are a counter and admit it, they have no right to detain you in anyway shape or form.
they have the right to cash you out and escort you off the property, untouched.
if they try any bullshit with refusing to cash your chips, or hold you for questioning, you've got a lawsuit.
were i not making a lovely chunk of money from counting, i might consider trying to get backroomed.

Quote: WizardofEngland

How do you look like a counter, without being a counter, and not looking like someone pretending to be a counter?

Oh, I can be a counter :) I used to count in the past, and still do sometimes, but not very often, because it feels too much like work, and my real work pays better. But for the kind of money we are talking about here I don't actually mind working a little bit :)

Quote: WizardofEngland

How do you look like a counter, without being a counter, and not looking like someone pretending to be a counter?

Don't think too hard about it because I can't think of many casinos that can tell the difference anyway. Grosjean makes a pretty funny point in his book where he recommends that anyone who thinks the floor can count try a simple experiment. I'll quote here, but if this is not allowed or somehow constitutes copyright infringement, I'll be glad to edit/remove it/paraphrase:

Experimental Procedure to Prove that Casino Personnel Cannot Count Cards:

1. Walk into a Vegas casino wearing sunglasses.
2. Go to a single-deck table if there is one, otherwise the double-deck.
3. Buy in for $2600, all at once.
4. When the floorperson asks for a player's card, politely decline.
5. Bet $5 for the first several rounds, then when you get deep into the deck so that it looks like it will be the last round before the reshuffle, then jump your bet to two spots of $500. (The dealer might reshuffle before dealing this round.) Play 2 x $500 until the shuffle.
6. For the next deck, again start out betting $5. Flatbet $5 for the entire deck, never raising your bet, even on the last round. Play one spot of $5 until the shuffle.
7. Return to Step 5. (Continue these steps regardless of the count, if you already know how to count.)

* You may ignore basic strategy and play the hands however you please; however, look intently at the layout at all times.

Guaranteed backoff/barring!

Quote: WizardofEngland

How do you look like a counter, without being a counter, and not looking like someone pretending to be a counter?

You probably don't want to ask someone else at the table "What's the count?"

On the other hand, if you were to say to the dealer, "I'm telling you, this card-counting shtick is a whole lot more complicated than dice-setting and hole-carding combined," they might just not take any chances.

Lol these are all great replies.

What about having a calculator in your top shirt pocket?

i would probably try a line like this when the pit boss get nosy:
"wow, 24 aces out and 156 cards left in the shoe, can i get a comp for the buffet, please?"

I hate to point out the obvious, or at least what I think should be obvious. You are conspiring to shake down a casino through litigation. Why would you even think of doing that? You love to gamble at casinos. That is why you are here at this forum. The casino is not your enemy! If the casino didn't have to protect itself against counters (and the awesome roulette methods of mrjjj of the awesome dice influencing sK1llZoRz of heavy :) ) then we wouldn't be discussing back rooms and casino security.

i love money far more than i love gambling.
casinos aren't going anywhere, there are more of them every week.
what do i care if a few of them who choose to break the law get taken to the cleaners.
it sends a message to the rest of the industry,
"don't f**k with me, fellas, this ain't my first time at the rodeo"

Quote: WongBo

i love money far more than i love gambling.
casinos aren't going anywhere, there are more of them every week.
what do i care if a few of them who choose to break the law get taken to the cleaners.
it sends a message to the rest of the industry,
"don't f**k with me, fellas, this ain't my first time at the rodeo"

Although she looked fabulous doing it, Joan Crawford was still a tool for doing that.

Quote: Wizard

Advantage player attorney Bob Nersesian will be a guest on my radio show on May 10.

Bob was a guest speaker at the WGPC the year before the one you attended. One of his examples was an incident that sounds exactly like the OP, and I'm sure you're right on what he'd advise. Verbally refuse anything and everything, but physically comply if police get involved, or if security gets physical

Quote: s2dbaker

I hate to point out the obvious, or at least what I think should be obvious. You are conspiring to shake down a casino through litigation. Why would you even think of doing that? You love to gamble at casinos. That is why you are here at this forum. The casino is not your enemy!

All casinos are not created equal. I do love gambling, but I love sticking it to a bunch of idiots on a power trip way more.

Quote:

If the casino didn't have to protect itself against counters (and the awesome roulette methods of mrjjj of the awesome dice influencing sK1llZoRz of heavy :) ) then we wouldn't be discussing back rooms and casino security.

If they wanted to protect themselves against counters, they would install CSMs. and if they want protection against dice influencers, they are idiots, and so I have no sympathy for them.

There's at least one casino in the UK where the staff wouldn't bother to try and stay on top of the card counter risk . . . . overheard from one of the BJ dealers at a Gala casino: "card counting won't work with our games anyway as we use six decks".

Good.

Quote: acesnfaces

Another question with respect to providing an id.
I know one needs to be given if cashing out over $10,000.
This past February at the Mirage I was asked for my ID when cashing out $6,500, one of which was a $5,000 chip.
I was not comfortable with providing my ID but did. Mostly because I wanted to get my money and keep moving. Also because I was there on a comp and didn't want to cause a scene that might put future comps in jeapordy.
My guess at the time was they were making sure it was a legitimate chip.

Anyone want to take a shot at what would happen the next time if I refuse to give my ID?
Will I be able to cash out?
Will I get barred?

Many casinos, ours included will request ID prior to reaching the $10,000 mark. You don't have to provide it, but if you don't the casino doesn't have to let you play. It's done by the casinos to remain in compliance with Title 31 currency transaction reporting requirements. At $10,000.01 the casino will not complete a transaction without proper identification, including a social security number.

Mark

i never color up beyond black chips.
and i cash in every time i reach $5,000.
i don't do paperwork and
i am never going to be caught holding a bunch of worthless plastic.
show me the money!

Quote: WongBo

i love money far more than i love gambling.
casinos aren't going anywhere, there are more of them every week.
what do i care if a few of them who choose to break the law get taken to the cleaners.
it sends a message to the rest of the industry,
"don't f**k with me, fellas, this ain't my first time at the rodeo"

I agree, if I got banned from a casino I would just go to another with my 6 figure pay out.
There will always be somewhere else to go.

Quote: s2dbaker

The casino is not your enemy!

So they're your friend, then? As long as you
lose like a good sport and always remain a
loser, thats true. Just don't get ahead of them,
or you'll find out just what kind of friend they
are.

Quote: WongBo

i never color up beyond black chips.
and i cash in every time i reach $5,000.
i am never going to be caught holding a bunch of worthless plastic.
show me the money!

If your cashouts total more than $10,000 in a casino's "gaming day" you'll be subject to the identification requirements too. It's cumulative, not by individual transactions. If the casino is doing it's job as required by the federal government then they would already have your previous $5,000 recorded somewhere.

Mark

there are ways around every rule.

Quote: WongBo

i never color up beyond black chips.
and i cash in every time i reach $5,000.
i don't do paperwork and
i am never going to be caught holding a bunch of worthless plastic.
show me the money!

MGM casinos in Vegas (like the aforementioned Mirage) are notorious for confiscating high-denomination cheques from players who can't "prove" that they won them personally. MGM-chain chocolates are basically worthless unless you intend to show ID at the cage. I can't quite recall the official justification for this, but no one should be fooled by flimsy references to CTR law; they will ID for you for a quarter of what it takes to generate a CTR.

And cheques are usually clay, not plastic ; )

Quote: WongBo

there are ways around every rule.

Sure, but some of these "ways" are called "structuring," which is a felony. Also note that the CTR requirements apply to cash transactions of any sort, which includes cashing out as well as buying in at a table. Anything over $10K cash is a CTR.

But again, why was the previous poster (who got carded for a $6K transaction) ID'd for his cashout amount? It has nothing to do with CTRs, so what's the excuse?

ceramic would be more accurate.
i would never trust a casino to honor anything beyond a black chip.
as far as the CTR goes,
i know the parameters of what i can and cannot do.
i never commit actionable offenses.

Quote: marksolberg

At $10,000.01 the casino will not complete a transaction without proper identification, including a social security number.

How about foreigners who can't have an SSN? Will a passport do?

i love that you are already planning for the contingency of winning $10,000 !
make it $20K. ++

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Sure, but some of these "ways" are called "structuring," which is a felony. Also note that the CTR requirements apply to cash transactions of any sort, which includes cashing out as well as buying in at a table. Anything over $10K cash is a CTR.

But again, why was the previous poster (who got carded for a $6K transaction) ID'd for his cashout amount? It has nothing to do with CTRs, so what's the excuse?

The ID below $10,000 is for ctrs. Most casinos have a level they start compiling information at for multiple transactions. If the shift changes and a player has more transactions that put you over $10,000 then it has to be reported. Failure to take reasonable efforts to properly report can mean significant penalties for the casino. It's more of a pain in the ass for us (the casinos) than you.

Mark

Quote: Nareed

How about foreigners who can't have an SSN? Will a passport do?

Yes a passport is valid. (had to look that one up)

Mark

Quote: marksolberg

Yes a passport is valid. (had to look that one up)

Thanks.

In Mexico the prferred ID is the voter regitration card. So much so that foreigners often have trouble when asked for ID. FYI, a passport has a better chance than a driver's license in Mexico (long story).

Off-topic post in response to comments in this thread:

Quote: LonesomeGambler

And cheques are usually clay, not plastic ; )

Quote: WongBo

ceramic would be more accurate.

Real clay chips haven't been used in more than half a century. Most modern chips are from classes referred to as "clay composite", "ceramic", and "plastic injection molded." I am familiar with manufacturing processes for other products described by those names, but I'm not convinced the chips are made by the processes I know. I have been looking casually for good info on the chip manufacturing processes for each of these classes, but I have only found generalities, since the detailed processes are proprietary trade secrets.

I never understood the stupidity of casinos (in the US and elsewhere) of overeacting to casual card counters and using approaches like detaining them etc.
First, a lot of card counters are not really strictly advantage players. They might know how to count but not be really that good at it and only playing with a very small advantage in BJ. At the same time they might also be playing other negative Ev games turning their overall activity to negative EV. Also many will come to the casino with their wife, girlfriend or friends who do not count making the overall activity of the group negative Ev, profit for the casino.

The casino might be worried by high stakes professional counters but I do not see any business reason for overacting with low stakes casual card counters.

The best approach for the casino is a polite back off, preferably in the following terms: "Your BJ play is too good for us sir, you are welcome to play any other game but not BJ"

I had a few backoffs/barrings, most outside the US and two in Las Vegas many years ago.
My first barring was the most polite I had. I walk in the casino and go to sit at the BJ table (small casino outside the US). The pitboss sees me and comes over before I start to play and tells me that the casino manager wants to talk to me at his office. I have been playing at that casino for the last year reguraly. As I walk towards the casino all sort of horror stories that I have read about, been beaten up etc go through my head. The casino manager tells me that my play is too good for them and he know that I am counting and that I can play any other game but not BJ. He also tells me this is nothing personal, he appreciates that I am polite with the dealers and often tip (in the countries I play, players are often rude to the dealers when losing and rarely tip) but that is their decision. I just tell me that is your casino and you make the rules and that's about it.
The clever part about that way of barring someone is that the casino does it privately and not in the middle of the casino without any other player noticing and without causing a scene in the middle of the pit.

And there are no hard feelings on either side. Card counters generally accept the position that the casino can bar them or use other counter-measures like reduding penetration etc. It is a game of cat and mouse trying to avoid been made as a card counter and using techniques (cover) to avoid detection or at least prolong the play. These days most of the skill of the card counter is avoiding detection and not the actual card counting.