Rogue Dealers (theoretical)

If a rogue dealer were to be caught by casino security, would the casino refund player losses from this game, had they not been involved? For instance, say a dealer was able to force cards through shuffles, dealing a poker player a few "top hands" in poker, with other players lower hands (ie AAAAK vs 8888A etc), or something of the sort (somehow affecting outcomes in roulette, money wheel, other games where it isn't all players Vs dealer).

I know security monitors things in realtime, but let's be serious, they cannot follow one game for hours while still monitoring everything else. Had they discovered a tournament, or specific table had been cheating, and taken action against the dealer.. would they refund any of the money from a player's or the house's wrongful winnings? Or would it be up to the Division of Gaming to do so?


All this is theoretical, I was just curious as to the process.

The casino would give nothing back unless the gaming control board forced them to do so.

Quote: ajemeister

(ie AAAAK vs 8888A etc)

On this hand I think someone might notice the 5 aces in the deck

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At most they would build a file on a suspect dealer, but a suspect dealer is usually one who steals not one who deals in an arbitrary and capricious manner that entertains the dealer and happens to favor some random players.

Many houses foster an "us versus them" attitude, sort of an "every penny they win comes out of YOUR pocket" type thing.

Also many things are "allowed to slide" for awhile so that a tactful arrangement can be made. For instance if an attractive young lady starts massaging a poker player's back a dealer might not ask her to sit down right away but might give a signal that means two suits show up and watch from a few feet away and then a uniformed guard strides purposefully in her direction. The other players at the table will not be told that she might have been giving signals, she will be allowed to stop and depart.

Dealers are usually arrested on duty and paraded in a round about manner to the security office often amidst chip-pounding by other dealers. This walk of shame is supposed to let all dealers know that no matter what personal situation the dealer is known to be in, arrest is certain since tact and compassion are for customers, not dealers.

Quote: ajemeister

If a rogue dealer were to be caught by casino security, would the casino refund player losses from this game, had they not been involved? ...would they refund any of the money from a player's or the house's wrongful winnings?

One thing to remember is that the vast, vast majority of the dealer theft is the dealer stealing from the casino. He'll either directly take the money from the rack or, more often, collude with an associate at the table. In the entire time I've been in the industry I've never seen a dealer intentionally steal from a player; it's just not worth it. Sure, dealers will be absolute dicks to players they don't like at times but not to the point where they'd outright cheat them. I'm not saying it never happens, it's just extremely rare compared to other forms of theft & cheating.

I can't speak for Poker though as I don't have much experience there. However, at the properties I've worked at I've never heard of a poker dealer fired for theft or cheating. I have seen dozens of Table Games dealers get caught though.

Quote: FleaStiff

This walk of shame is supposed to let all dealers know that no matter what personal situation the dealer is known to be in, arrest is certain since tact and compassion are for customers, not dealers.

Yes, the walk of shame is as much for the other dealers as the customers. But really? Tact and compassion? This isn't Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread, it's some moron stealing from the company he works for. Even at the worst casinos the dealers make a livable wage. What personal situation requires that they steal from their casino?

I heard about a casino that had a party pit where the dealers were contracted out to Casino Job Center. These dealers did not have to wear an apron & went for their own tips. I heard they would cash out their tips at another casino to avoid attention to the amount they were getting. There was some speculation of theft in some instances, but in the end they ended the contract and hired party pit dealers to their own staff.

Quote: AZDuffman

The casino would give nothing back unless the gaming control board forced them to do so.

The casino often gives back money and capital when a situation is correctly pointed out.
AZDuffman speaks for himself - and for the casino that HE operates.
If you want to play at the AZDuffman Casino, by all means, go ahead.
He has expressed his own approach to the matter clearly.

Contracting out the Party Pit? That's terrifying. Aprons are overrated as protection devices by the way. Their primary purpose is to protect the dealer's pants as they grind along the table rail. Next time you're at a table take a look when the dealer gets pushed and you'll see it well worn in the middle. About half the ones I've seen don't even cover side pockets.

Quote: PopCan

Even at the worst casinos the dealers make a livable wage. What personal situation requires that they steal from their casino?

Not always. Some dealers are problem gamblers, some have problem spouses, divorces, kids, etc. Ever see a young mother lose her kids because she couldn't afford a plumber to fix a toilet and an hour later she has to go to work and smile and handle enough chips that would let her get her kids back?

Sure dealers can admit to problems rather than submit to temptations but they don't always take that option.

A film review reveals a dealer theft? They will often wait for the next shift's busy time and then give her the walk of shame, they won't tell her to go to the office at the start of her shift or anything like that.

That walk of shame is true, they arrested one of the cage workers one night in front of everyone!

I am concerned with dealers cheating using "sleight of hands" with a player partner. Now that poker became so popular, and cards are still dealt from hand held deck, and the fact that it is extremely difficult to catch if its performed masterfully makes it serious business for someone who possess that skill.

So have there been any cases poker dealer caught dealing second or bottom?

Quote: andysif

I am concerned with dealers cheating using "sleight of hands" with a player partner. Now that poker became so popular, and cards are still dealt from hand held deck, and the fact that it is extremely difficult to catch if its performed masterfully makes it serious business for someone who possess that skill.

So have there been any cases poker dealer caught dealing second or bottom?

Casinos are always worried about collusion since Dealer-Player collusion is their weakest point but lets face it, some really tight poker players who play 12 hours a day, six days a week are a mighty effective and utterly free surveillance force.

Some poker dealers get caught on tips or pinching a pot but usually it gets noticed by someone even if it is not the Pot Winner. Eyes in the poker room are simply too sharp and too numerous.

Thanks everyone for your replies. I was referring mainly to a dealer working with another individual, the rest of the table not knowing this. Say a dealer lets dice slide only if its in that player's favor in craps, can somehow (i know its impossible) position throws on the roulette wheel, signal what the next card is in blackjack (or when to take insurance), or forcing certain hands in poker (Texas hold'em eg. AA Vs 88 with 88KAA coming out. or something similar to give greatest profit and chance of winning (tournament or session) for that player). Also, instead of getting large excessive tips in the spot, the team can settle up later to avoid drawing any more flags.

I was just wondering if there are any safeguards in place to protect the "average joe" from strolling up to a rigged system and losing his money when someone else has insider knowledge and knows the outcomes. I understand that to the other people it's "all random" anyways... but in reality the game was unfair from the start, and the odds change dramatically, depending on how the dealer-player team chooses to win (going from standard odds to being forced to mimic the player(roulette or blackjack insurance) to win at all). If the casino can see that a dealer and a player are scamming the house out of money and shut down a table or something, do they just close the table and tell the other people to find a different table? Cause it sounds to me that playing a manipulated table game breaks the rules of that game from the start.. Do you think there is any type of compensation for this?

I can understand that it may take hours/days/weeks/few sessions for this to become noticed. I just hope that casinos would make it right somehow.

There would be no compensation to other players, but usually a rogue dealer will be discovered too soon. Certainly a poker room has too many neutral eyes watching. A BJ dealer might try something in a hand held game but usually those are watched by the floor person like a hawk and usually have knowing players as well.

Its an interesting concept but largely theoretical. That is why most dealers and most bellman in a hotel are still employed. You don't last 15 minutes if you steal, much less 15 years.

Those rigged miniBacc games involved the whole table and the dealers.

Quote: FleaStiff

Those rigged miniBacc games involved the whole table and the dealers.

Can you elaborate on this story? I don't believe I heard it...