Does the Average Player Notice Differences in House Advantage?

Take the average gambler who goes to casino and gambles for an average time of 4 hours. The player has a choice of betting an average bet of $25 per hand for the four hours on roulette, 3 card poker, or craps ($5 pass line with 3x4x5x odds). Of the three games, obviously roulette has the biggest house advantage, while craps due to the odds has the lowest.

My question is does the average player notice a difference in house advantage over a short period like 4 hours? How,many hours would you speculate a person would have to play to start noticing a difference?

Oh they might imagine a difference right away in the same manner slot players declare a casino has tightened its slot machines but after a few drinks I don't think anyone really notices the rate at which they are losing money, particularly if its only four hours. You can lose your shirt at a craps table in just a few minutes and you can hang in there at roulette sometimes. Many players don't know what the house advantage is and think an extra green on the wheel is a good thing the same way having the dealer required to take another card on a soft 17 is a good thing. And those are the opinions they hold while sober. Its gets worse after a few drinks.

It's a meaningless question.

The average person doesn't know or care about house edge. They simply play the game that they have more fun playing.

I mean, if they cared about the edge, Roulette players would play single zero rather than double zero.

I agree; most players don't care about house edge in the short term. You could argue I would be one of those players. I like to visit a casino, and occasionally, I'll play a game I like with a higher house edge (e.g Ultimate Texas Hold Em), simply because I like the game. Heck, even the Wizard played an American Idol slot machine!

As far as the number of hours it would take before you feel the effect of house edge, I would say that is meaningless. Luck DOES play a factor PER INDIVIDUAL. The only person who cares about the house edge in the long run is.... the HOUSE. There could be a player who plays 6:5 6-deck games where you can only double on 10,11, no double after split, no surrender, who wins EVERY time they play on that table. It's POSSIBLE. In the long run, the table will make the money it's supposed to, but the individual may not see the difference.

If you look at my slot machine winnings, I'd be way ahead. I've hit some nice mini-jackpots, usually cash out as soon as I am $.01 up, and use Free Slot Play when you can't use it on VP. I hit a $1200 jackpot on a machine with a coupon. I can nearly guarantee you I've not lost $1200 in 8 years of gambling on a slot machine, and I've played well more than a total of 4 hours.

At the Excalibur in May '10 I played 3CP betting on ante and play only. Everyone else was playing Pair+ and the Progressive.

There was a man playing who bet more than the $5 minnimum and seemed more experienced. a newbie latched on to him for advice on when to fold and when to play. The newbie asked him, not me, why I wasn't playing the side bets. The man said "Well, the ante and play are statistically more likely to win."

So I'd say some average players do know what a hosue advantage is, even if they pay it no mind.

But that's ok. I don't play on house advantage criteria only. I do avoid the worse games/bets, but if I feel like playing a higher edge game I will. If I feel like playing slots, I take out a ticket for $0.01 I kept from the Rio. On it I wrote "Remember: from $20 to this in less than six minutes, 05/12/10" And then I go play something else :)

It is PAY TO PLAY.
The average player either knows or does not know the house egde.
If he were to be obessing about it, instead of having fun at gambling, he would not be playing. You pay your entertainment fee in the long run, usually.
If he does know about it, he makes the better bets and plays (pass line, Don't pass and come bets on dice, knowledable stratgey on Pai Gow, basic strategy PLUS card counting as endorsed here apparently [no comment as a "casino cop"], and Baccarat) and avoids Keno or weak slots/weak VP.

You use expert advice going in: Read this before you play on Mike's orders..

Come and play.

Quote: Nareed

At the Excalibur in May '10 I played 3CP betting on ante and play only. Everyone else was playing Pair+ and the Progressive.

There was a man playing who bet more than the $5 minnimum and seemed more experienced. a newbie latched on to him for advice on when to fold and when to play. The newbie asked him, not me, why I wasn't playing the side bets. The man said "Well, the ante and play are statistically more likely to win."

So I'd say some average players do know what a hosue advantage is, even if they pay it no mind.

But that's ok. I don't play on house advantage criteria only. I do avoid the worse games/bets, but if I feel like playing a higher edge game I will. If I feel like playing slots, I take out a ticket for $0.01 I kept from the Rio. On it I wrote "Remember: from $20 to this in less than six minutes, 05/12/10" And then I go play something else :)

Interestingly enough, I don't play TCP anymore, because I don't want to play the game without playing the Pairs Plus. My first trip to Vegas I played a lot of TCP even though the Flush was 3-1 (I didn't know how bad the HE was on the game). I hit four straight flushes on the trip, one with $25 up (Usually only had $10 on it, but hit a nice streak... the story on how I got it was interesting... hit it at the Sahara... sigh...)

ANYWAYS, I do avoid games that have a ridiculous high edge. I like Ultimate Hold Em, Blackjack, Craps (Pass line/odds and place 6/8), 9/6 JoB sometimes 9/5 or 8/6 if that's all there is, Pai Gow Poker and poker. I avoid side bets, except I do play the Trips when the HE is less than 3% and if I'm feeling lucky, I'll play 21+3, since the HE on that side bet is around 3%, and I do miss playing TCP. The Fortune Bonus on PGP is okay too.

Quote: Tiltpoul

Interestingly enough, I don't play TCP anymore, because I don't want to play the game without playing the Pairs Plus.

Because you'd rather be playing the side bets, or because the flack you get from everyone else?

Quote:

My first trip to Vegas I played a lot of TCP even though the Flush was 3-1 (I didn't know how bad the HE was on the game). I hit four straight flushes on the trip, one with $25 up (Usually only had $10 on it, but hit a nice streak... the story on how I got it was interesting... hit it at the Sahara... sigh...)

I played at the Fitz last year and when I doubled my $50 buy-in I started betting the pair+. I hit three straights and few pairs rather quickly, once beating a dealer pair of aces. Then I started losing. so I quit with $150 in hand. Not bad. But when I tried the same thing elsewhere I quickly lost. So...

Quote:

ANYWAYS, I do avoid games that have a ridiculous high edge.

Likewise.

But I will buy the odd lotto ticket now and then.

The Vegas Baby, Vegas attitude, the hookers, the liquor flowing freely, the music, the lights, bells and whistles and clang of quarters ... none of it is conducive to well reasoned calculations of anything. People go to Vegas for a fling... some financially, some sexually, some just enjoy Disneyland but don't go on all the rides that are available. Darn few carry a slide rule around with and analyze the hell out of everything. They see this gorgeous woman going by in a red dress and so they bet on red. And sometimes they win! When they lose, they take a drink. Its Vegas, Baby. Vegas! Besides, they are on a streak.

Quote: Nareed

Because you'd rather be playing the side bets, or because the flack you get from everyone else?

A little of both to be truthful. I avoided Caribbean Stud, because the $1 bet seems like a waste, but not playing it will nearly get you booted off the table. On a rare occasion, at a $5 table I might play some Let it Ride. I don't play the $1 on that in the Midwest, since most of the time, it only pays on 2 pair or Trips or better. Anytime I hit a decent hand, the players and dealer will comment on what I could have won. I point out that unless I hit a straight flush or Royal, it doesn't even pay enough to make that much of a difference to my bankroll, but losing the $1 does.

Anyway, I don't see much point in playing TCP if you're not going to play for the Pairs plus. Yes, it's a sucker bet, but at least straight flushes and trips hit enough to make it worth its time... if the House Edge is low enough.

Quote: Nareed

Likewise.

But I will buy the odd lotto ticket now and then.

Now that's something I never do... I don't gamble. ;-)

Quote: Tiltpoul

Anyway, I don't see much point in playing TCP if you're not going to play for the Pairs plus. Yes, it's a sucker bet, but at least straight flushes and trips hit enough to make it worth its time... if the House Edge is low enough.

If you want to play it, then play it.

There's nothing wrong with making sucker bets, as long as you know what you're getting yourself into and what your expected loss is.

Still, I enjoy TCP without the side bets. But I won't play at Caesars' properties because they do push the 6 card bonus a lot, and hard.

Quote: Nareed

If you want to play it, then play it.

There's nothing wrong with making sucker bets, as long as you know what you're getting yourself into and what your expected loss is.

Still, I enjoy TCP without the side bets. But I won't play at Caesars' properties because they do push the 6 card bonus a lot, and hard.

Well in Vegas you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a sign advertising the Million Dollar Payout for the Super Royal Flush in Diamonds!!!

Last time I played TCP was at Belterra in Indiana. They have 4-1 on Flush, but 5-1 on the Straight. However, they have the progressive, and it was up to $14,000. I believe the breakeven point is $12000. I actually got a flush, with the As,Qs, but a low spade... so close, yet so far.

[edit] I forgot to type this. It's actually the principle that they took down the flush just to make extra money. I know that 3% wasn't high enough, but that was just getting greedy.

I would say that the average player is very conscious of differences in house edge, but not in an organized manner. It is very common to hear "insurance is a sucker bet" while at the same time overlooking moves with a much higher advantage.

Another big one is to always play maximum coins in a slot machine. While it is true that decreases house edge, the total decrease is very small. Your expected loss in the meantime goes up because you are betting so much more money.

In my opinion, roulette (even American style) is a reasonable house edge for a payout of 36:1. But it is very high for a 1:1 payout. Yet people always play the outside bets.

And literally no one would play carnival games or side bets if they care about house edge. But many people think those bets are thrilling, and it increases their enjoyment.

I would say that the average player is very conscious of differences in house edge, but not in an organized manner. It is very common to hear "insurance is a sucker bet" while at the same time overlooking moves with a much higher advantage.

Yet that same player will take "even money" when offered ! LOL

Quote: Tiltpoul

Well in Vegas you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a sign advertising the Million Dollar Payout for the Super Royal Flush in Diamonds!!!

Who knows. You might hit one advertising a brand new car for playing slots :P

Quote:

Last time I played TCP was at Belterra in Indiana. They have 4-1 on Flush, but 5-1 on the Straight. However, they have the progressive, and it was up to $14,000. I believe the breakeven point is $12000. I actually got a flush, with the As,Qs, but a low spade... so close, yet so far.

One of the straights I got at Fitz was Ah Kh Qd. Alas, as I remind myself at VP, there ain't no such thing as a Royal Straight...

Oh, there was no progressive, but the difference between 6:1 and 40:1 is noticeable.

Quote: Nareed

One of the straights I got at Fitz was Ah Kh Qd. Alas, as I remind myself at VP, there ain't no such thing as a Royal Straight...

Oh, there was no progressive, but the difference between 6:1 and 40:1 is noticeable.

I hit two Mini-royals in my time, both in hearts.

Quote: Nareed

...the difference between 6:1 and 40:1 is noticeable.

Sure it is.

But if that was, say, 7:1 and 35:1, would you notice the difference in the house edge? Would the average person even know which one is better for the player?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Sure it is.

But if that was, say, 7:1 and 35:1, would you notice the difference in the house edge? Would the average person even know which one is better for the player?

That kind of reminds me of the Par-a-dice Casino in East Peoria, IL. (I used to live in Peoria, and it was the only boat around.) They paid 4-1 on the flush for quite sometime. Eventually, they switched the payout to 3-1. Reason being (according to one dealer)
"The average bet on the Pairs Plus is $10. To simplify the payout, we now pay one green and one red. That's much easier for the player to understand."

Clearly, this dealer was not PaigowDan (at least I sure hope it wasn't). That was about the time I stopped playing TCP in general.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Sure it is.

But if that was, say, 7:1 and 35:1, would you notice the difference in the house edge? Would the average person even know which one is better for the player?

Probably not.

My math-defficient brain, though, tells me to take the 7:1 and 35:1, as I think I'm likely to hit more straights than royals.

>I would say that the average player is very conscious of differences in house edge, but not in an organized manner.
This is probably true but its a bit misleading also.

> It is very common to hear "insurance is a sucker bet"
Yes, but what this means is that the speaker has heard that said, thinks it is probably true but is not sure and can not prove it to you or compare it to other sucker bets or other sensible bets. He just feels comfortable parroting something that he has heard and which may even be true but if you asked him to put money on the truth of falsity of his statement, well ... he wouldn't be that much of a sucker.

>Another big one is to always play maximum coins in a slot machine.
Right. He has heard the bottom line. He doesn't know the reasoning, the parameters or the actual effect in terms of dollars and cents.
And if you come right down to it, he would probably admit that there may be some exceptions to that rule but he really can't read the machine and figure out which machine might or might not be one of those exceptions, he just knows that blondes are better in bed than redheads... oops,, I mean he just knows that you should always put in maximum coins.

>In my opinion, roulette (even American style) is a reasonable house edge for a payout of 36:1. But it is very high for a 1:1 payout. >Yet people always play the outside bets.
Well, their bankroll lasts longer that way, they get more "positive feedback" with those more frequent wins albeing at 1:1 or 2:1. And lets face it, Inside Bets are more likely to lose.

>And literally no one would play carnival games or side bets if they care about house edge.
They are there in a group. Its 3 guys and 3 girls. They are out to blow off some steam and drink lots of booze. They got a room at the IP 'cause they like the balcony. There are six people fighting over those two key cards. One of them is a CW and will soon be prancing around that balcony rail displaying her skills at drunkenly carrying an imaginary tray filled with imaginary drinks, then she will finally get off the balcony and have drunk-sex with one of the guys. Probably the one that is her current boyfriend, but maybe one of the others for old times sake or maybe with one of the other girls and maybe, just maybe, she will remember when she wakes up just who it was she was having sex with, but right now she does indeed think the carnival bets are exciting and she likes the group she is with and most of all she would like another free drink.
> But many people think those bets are thrilling, and it increases their enjoyment.
It is thrilling and it does increase her enjoyment. She will soon have to sober up and go back to work in a day or so, but right now she is indeed thrilled even if its only a carney game because she can possible WIN something.

Quote: FleaStiff

They are there in a group. Its 3 guys and 3 girls. They are out to blow off some steam and drink lots of booze. They got a room at the IP 'cause they like the balcony. There are six people fighting over those two key cards. One of them is a CW and will soon be prancing around that balcony rail displaying her skills at drunkenly carrying an imaginary tray filled with imaginary drinks, then she will finally get off the balcony and have drunk-sex with one of the guys. Probably the one that is her current boyfriend, but maybe one of the others for old times sake or maybe with one of the other girls and maybe, just maybe, she will remember when she wakes up just who it was she was having sex with, but right now she does indeed think the carnival bets are exciting and she likes the group she is with and most of all she would like another free drink.

Man, you really paint a picture!

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Man, you really paint a picture!

+1

Well, there are a great many such "pictures" that might apply in a casino.

Sometimes a guy and girl go to a casino because they've each received a mailer, so rather than cook dinner at home they decide to straddle the coupons at the Craps table, take the guaranteed 15 dollars to a nearby casino bar for some drinks, Video Poker and music, then play a nearby slot on a whim and then see about a dinner where they don't have to cook or clean up afterward. Sure they could just go to a nearby restaurant but the casino offers a much better chance that the dinner will be free and a much better range of alternative entertainment. Sometimes the cost of exercising that Free Match Play coupon can be a bit high but they have fun anyway. Not one of their decisions that night will be based on house edge though. They may know house edge down to a science, but its really just a night of avoiding cooking, avoiding doing the dishes, and having a crack at Lady Variance as well.

It will based on the chance that their dinner that night will be free. It will be based on what games or machines are nearest to them at the time and it will be based on their knowledge that the bartender will keep the drinks flowing as long as they are feeding the bartop machines. They've used up the coupons, tipped the dealers and the bartender/waitresses and maybe they are "up" that night and maybe not. Either way, they could probably recite the house edges for you if you happened along and asked them to, but it really was not a decision-maker for them. Whims, moods, geographic convenience and things like that can be much more of an influence. If they run into friends, plans may change but rarely is anyone carrying out the math to four decimal places and then making the optimal decision. The traffic and parking decisions are probably more important than the house edge. Its a night of entertainment and they may be in the mood for a return trip to the craps table or for a stint of roulette. Its not going to be an all night session in the casino, its just a dinner, drinks, music and some excitement that the local Italian restaurant can't really match.

Locals are out to have some fun and take advantage of some bargain. Tourists are there to have a fling. Some will concentrate on booze, some on a variety of games, some will be meeting up with a few friends and the games they play will be decided by votes rather than by math. Everyone "knows" the math and some may even know it correctly but its not always high on the list of deciding factors. I don't think casinos really compete on House Edge, they compete on overall perceptions which are an amalgam of the various offerings they have. Volume and style of music, dealer's personality, dealer's anatomy, restaurants, rumors about restaurants, comps, rumors of comps, ... its all part of the picture for someone. House edge really isn't all that high on the list. Parking and lighting in the garage are much more important than house edge.

Quote: FleaStiff

And those are the opinions they hold while sober. Its gets worse after a few drinks.

While I've perhaps painted an overly exaggerated picture and sloshed it with too much alcohol and not enough sober and intelligent opinions, let me hasten to add that even those who do know math and do stay sober and do know more truth than lies about about gambling, there is still a certain realization that it is supposed to be fun. So some people will indeed make choices based on their preferences rather than on the math involved. If they have to play less time at roulette than at Blackjack but happen to enjoy roulette more, then indeed this 5.26 percent stuff simply will not phase them at all. If three hours of roulette beats out five hours of Blackjack, so be it.

An awareness of house edge? Of course they have it. They didn't just fall off a turnip truck and wander into a casino. They know basic math, they know the casino's motives and ploys. They know that lovely young lass with the drink tray is the equivalent of those women who sang to ancient sailors to lure them to their doom. They know their wallet will last longer at the PassLine than at the Hop bets. Its just that its a situation wherein one puts his money in the circle. Its not one wherein the money must be placed in the exact center of the circle. No one is there with a micrometer or a slide rule. The decision about house edge has many factors. They drove up the casino in an expensive car, they have expensive luggage, they are staying in a spacious suite, not a tiny broom closet. They did not accumulate their wealth by being ignorant of math or unaware of their surroundings and the nature of the games played in life. They are not limited to the optimal house edge. They are not constrained in their decision making by a slavish adherence to optimal strategy. They choose the nature of the game by its enjoyment factors, not by the pennies involved in calculating house edge.

Quote: FleaStiff

While I've perhaps painted an overly exaggerated picture and sloshed it with too much alcohol and not enough sober and intelligent opinions, let me hasten to add that even those who do know math and do stay sober and do know more truth than lies about about gambling, there is still a certain realization that it is supposed to be fun.

In our society "fun" is affected by the desires of spouses, friends, etc. so even the most sane and sober gambler will be making decisions based on factors that are utterly unrelated to house edge on a particular game. The female who when asked about house edge replies "I'm a girl. I don't have any edges, just curves" may in fact be the sharpest gambler in the group, but her response is to diminish the effect of house edge in favor of the effects alcohol and camaraderie have on enjoyment of the evening's adventures. Decades ago there was Club Med with its famed shears that were employed if any man showed up wearing a necktie. Casino personnel are probably trained to do the same thing if any morose drunk starts babbling about house edge.

I agree with everyone who said that recreational gamblers do not care about house edge. For me there are simple evidences of that, excluding the fact that I have been to many casinos with friends who do not gamble often.

1) If people really cared, there would not be so many carnival games around casinos;
2) There would not be, again, so many non 3:2 blackjack tables;
3) People would not split bets at roulette;
4) Casinos would not offer free drinks.

Not going to read everyone's posts here, but I would say the average recreational (non-serious) gambler will see much more variance than house edge.

Quote: aluisio

I agree with everyone who said that recreational gamblers do not care about house edge.
For me there are simple evidences of that, excluding the fact that I have been to many casinos with friends who do not gamble often.
3) People would not split bets at roulette.

Okay now, I both understand and agree with your points that you've designated 1, 2 and 4, but I just don't understand the one you've listed as number 3 since the full amount of the money on a straight up bet versus half the money on a two-number split seems to be the exact same thing.

Quote: FleaStiff

Okay now, I both understand and agree with your points that you've designated 1, 2 and 4, but I just don't understand the one you've listed as number 3 since the full amount of the money on a straight up bet versus half the money on a two-number split seems to be the exact same thing.

an odd amount of chips split between two numbers will cost you .5 more of a chip on a win.

Quote: rudeboyoi

an odd amount of chips split between two numbers will cost you .5 more of a chip on a win.

You are talking about "breakage?" I thought all bets at roulette had the same edge except one bet arounf 0/00?

Quote: kmcd

Not going to read everyone's posts here, but I would say the average recreational (non-serious) gambler will see much more variance than house edge.

Excellent point, which is why when a game is within "decent, standard, and acceptable HE range" AND the player's strategy is sufficiently decent or competent, the game performs well for both the player and the house - which is not a paradox!
What this generally means is that:
1. The Main type "flat bet" (Pass line, Odd/Even on Roulette, main BJ bet, Pai Gow Poker main bet, etc) is 1% to 4%
2. The Strong hand Bonus bet or a bad beat/Pai Gow insurance bet is about 7% (Fortune Bonus bet on Pai Gow, BJ side bet, Pair Plus on Three Card, etc)
Then the game allows for a good mix of winning and losing sessions where the game appears to be fair, and the house edge takes effect in winnings over many players' sessions, still allowing positive player sessions to occur.

From the winning player's POV, he walks away with $450 on a $100 buy-in session that an even game would made him $500 or $550.
The losing player experience is essentially the same, a loss, and looks forward to the next winning session.
The house makes money over many such sessions, while each player primarily experiences the "variance;" either a winning or losing session.

If a game's house edge is too strong, above these general ranges, the players get creamed, the table loses action with a bad reputation and is abandoned by players, and the game disappears.
If the game's house edge is too weak, the game loses money for the house (i.e., the players win too much), the game gets a bad rep with the casino, and gets pulled by management dictate.

Players can get clobbered on 0.001% BJ, and win on 5% American Roulette, so generally, games that are easy and fun to play (game style-wise), and are within standard house edge ranges (defined above), do all right from all parties' POV.

So no, a player will not notice much difference, consciously or unconsciously, between a game with a 1.9356463847655% HE versus a game with a 3.001846529441% house edge; they do not say, "Oh! this game feels like it has a 3.76345% house edge to ME! I must play another game!" They say, "I hit a straight flush and left a winner tonight," or "I lost tonight."

he'll notice if he made five points on craps, or got a Royal on Pai Gow Poker, or hit "Black" eight out of ten times on Roulette, and take his cash and his comps.

I think this is what is meant by such general statements as "the mafia knew it had to let the players win alot" whereas its the slide-rule toting MBA's that keep tightening the screws on the players.

Its obvious no one ever claims that the house has tightened down on craps or Pai Gow any more than they would accuse the golf course of tightening down on the grass.

Its the slot machines were the player gets a sense of just how long his money lasts and does gripe about things being "tight". Many times its mere supposition but also it is a sense of experience as well. Their initial coin-in just doesn't last as long as it used to. And they know that.

In Mexico, its known as "the bite" but its known all over the world and in some economies it keeps things moving by being a very small but ever present "bite". The casinos in Vegas have the house edge and variance data and super computers to calculate and compare the data, but its the same general rule. They have to leave with a smile on their face at all times, and a valid hope and expectation that if this particular time they are not leaving a winner, it will indeed be next time that they do win. This "winning" can't be illusory (many slot machines, 6:5, Big Six), it has to be an actually reasonable expectation.

Quote: FleaStiff

Okay now, I both understand and agree with your points that you've designated 1, 2 and 4, but I just don't understand the one you've listed as number 3 since the full amount of the money on a straight up bet versus half the money on a two-number split seems to be the exact same thing.

What I mean is that by the "split bets" you are paying for the convinience. Once the payout in a single number is 35:1; if you split bets you get 17:1; and if you use the corner (betting 4 numbers) you get paid 8:1. I have seem people - so many times - betting 2, 3, 4, 5 chips splitted between two (or four) numbers and I cannot see the logical point of that. Do you realize?

I think different games work differently. It's not just the HE that people experience, it's the variance.

Pai Gow Poker is great, because even though there is HE, the game can be an even experience (if you bank). The HE comes from the commission and the tie games. But there is not a great deal of variance. But it's boring to some, but it's slow.

Blackjack is also a great game offerring skilled players a low HE, but the game is very fast.

What bugs me about Let it Ride is the fact that even though the HE is acceptable, the variance is high (it takes on average 4 hands to produce a winner) and you are throwing in your cards the majority of the time. Caribbean, 4 Card and 3 Card can be the same.

That said, everyone has their own cup of tea, taking a choice between volatility and house edge, and the game itself. Even in my sessions, I'll sit at a carnival game for a number of hands (usually less than 20) looking for that positive variance, because i know that it I spend more than that time there, I could easily catch a streak of negative variance that would kill my bankroll.

Quote: aluisio

What I mean is that by the "split bets" you are paying for the convinience. Once the payout in a single number is 35:1; if you split bets you get 17:1; and if you use the corner (betting 4 numbers) you get paid 8:1. I have seem people - so many times - betting 2, 3, 4, 5 chips splitted between two (or four) numbers and I cannot see the logical point of that. Do you realize?

I can not see the logical point of accepting a reduced payout unless there is a corresponding increase in the liklihood of the bet winning. As I understand roulette, if you go from a Straight-Up bet to a Split bet, you go from a 35 to 1 payout to a 17 to 1 payout. However, you have gained an equivalent chance of wining since you now have two numbers that will possibly pay off rather than just one.

Quote: FleaStiff

I can not see the logical point of accepting a reduced payout unless there is a corresponding increase in the liklihood of the bet winning. As I understand roulette, if you go from a Straight-Up bet to a Split bet, you go from a 35 to 1 payout to a 17 to 1 payout. However, you have gained an equivalent chance of wining since you now have two numbers that will possibly pay off rather than just one.

Let's try it another way: you are playing in an american roulette and you wanna bet 2 chips. You then place your 2 chips between 0 and 00 and one of them actually hits. You will get paid 34 chips, instead of 35 chips if you had placed one chip in each number. Did you see the difference?

Quote: aluisio

Let's try it another way: you are playing in an american roulette and you wanna bet 2 chips. You then place your 2 chips between 0 and 00 and one of them actually hits. You will get paid 34 chips, instead of 35 chips if you had placed one chip in each number. Did you see the difference?

And you get to keep both of the two chips that you put on the line between 0 and 00. Either way, you wind up with a total of 36 chips in your possession after the payout (17*2 paid +2 not lost or 35 paid +1 not lost).

Quote: aluisio

Let's try it another way: you are playing in an american roulette and you wanna bet 2 chips. You then place your 2 chips between 0 and 00 and one of them actually hits. You will get paid 34 chips, instead of 35 chips if you had placed one chip in each number. Did you see the difference?

You're looking at this the wrong way. Let's assume you have exactly 2 chips in your stack prior to the spin of the wheel. Using your example, if you place 2 chips on the the line between 0 and 00 and either one hits, you'll receive 34 chips for the win (17X2) PLUS you'll still retain the original bet of the 2 chips meaning that you'll have 36 chips after the win. If you place one chip on the 0 and one chip on the 00 and either one hits, you'll receive 35 chips for the win PLUS you'll retain the original bet of 1 chip meaning that you'll have 36 chips after the win. It's exactly the same result for either scenario and no net loss to the player. It's not how many chips you're paid for the win, it's how many chips you have in total after the win INCLUDING the original wager which is returned to you.

You get the same result if you place 4 chips on a 4-number corner. If any of the 4 numbers hit, you'll receive 32 chips for the win (8X4) PLUS you'll get your original wager of 4 chips back for a total of 36 chips. This is why it doesn't matter where you place a wager on 00 roulette (not including the 5-number "basket" bet), the house edge will ALWAYS be 5.26% on your wager.