WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
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December 16th, 2010 at 9:43:38 AM permalink
Question, if you owned a casino, how would you make it better than the rest?
Bare in mind all your suggestions have to be viable in terms of running a business.
What games would you have and not have? Would you offer lower stakes at slightly higher edges?
What sort of cocktails would you serve, good quality or watery horrible stuff?
Comps? 40% of theo loss, less or more?

What makes a great casino? and which casino has it closest to your ideal?
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
MathExtremist
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December 16th, 2010 at 10:11:08 AM permalink
I've had that conversation with myself many times. I'd do the following:

1) Take on all new games from anyone. As long as the math works, I'll try it. To cover and amortize my costs, I'll take a stake in the totally unproven ones.
2) Have multiple gaming floors that cater to different bankroll players, like I've heard they do in Macau (I really need to get over there). Except maybe the low-roller floor, each floor has a non-smoking area with an effective way to separate the air.
3) At least one upper floor includes whale salons and a whale sportsbook which facilitates large bets on *anything*. A helipad on the roof.
4) Private ownership so I'm not responsible for quarterly numbers to shareholders. I'd be looking to offer a high-value gaming experience rather than trying to make insane profits. As long as the business was moderately profitable, I'm fine pouring money back into it via marketing/comps/promos/luxury experiences/etc.
5) Build a quality brand known for a unique entertainment philosophy, not one laser-focused on separating you from your money.

I'm sure there's more, but that's a start.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Martin
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December 16th, 2010 at 10:48:13 AM permalink
I'd run my joint just like everyone else ran their joint because the average gambler is clueless. It doesn't matter what you put in to make their lives better, smarter, happier or hipper they will flock to Casino X because "that's where Aunt Ida hit a penny slot for $800 on her last trip and we just have to go there too."

Otherwise I'd like to own Binion's and bring back his rule - whatever you bet on your first hand is your limit for the session. I think the owner should be part gambler too.
mkl654321
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December 16th, 2010 at 11:13:01 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

Question, if you owned a casino, how would you make it better than the rest?
Bare in mind all your suggestions have to be viable in terms of running a business.
What games would you have and not have? Would you offer lower stakes at slightly higher edges?
What sort of cocktails would you serve, good quality or watery horrible stuff?
Comps? 40% of theo loss, less or more?

What makes a great casino? and which casino has it closest to your ideal?



I would offer the best possible versions of all games--single deck blackjack with Strip rules, craps with 100X odds, fullpay video poker, the loosest available slots, and a generous slot club with good benefits and promotions that encouraged players to return. I would have a mixture of casual, buffet, and fine dining restaurants, all competitively priced. I would offer well-appointed rooms at excellent prices.

This business model was wildly successful in the past for the few casinos that offered it. The suits and bean-counters are afraid to do so now, though. But my God, I could absolutely blow the competition out of the water if I ran a casino and had free rein to do this.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
FleaStiff
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December 16th, 2010 at 11:29:58 AM permalink
Is a "better" casino one that is more profitable or more honorable or more festive ... or simply the one that packs more visitors into it so as whatever happens in whatever style of running a casino, it happens to more dollars and the drop goes up.

I would like to run a Benny Binions type place or an M Resort type place, but remember... the real Horseshoe closed long ago and the M Resort can be foreclosed by its new bondholders who got it on the cheap.

Would I run a Shearing Shed? No. Even if they came in with fanny packs and said I don't want lessons I know that a slot machine that faces South is a winner... I would not want to shear the ignorant.

Would I have every new game in sight? NO WAY!! I don't mean to offend those on this forum who make their living or at least have a hobby that involves new games for casinos. I just see no need to innovate. Its like asking a Fashion Designer to improve The Little Black Dress or the man's Blue Serge Jacket. Or market celery that is silent. Or do anything else that is needless new and likely to be unrewarding. Heck, half those players simply sit at slot machines and press little red buttons. If you can't turn them on to established games such as blackjack and craps, how are you going to turn them on to Latest Wrinkle even if you invest all that dealer time in training for how to deal Latest Wrinkles and how to remember to also serve the Hollandaise Sauce with it.

Cocktails? A good decent drink or none at all. No watery drinks, no ice-filled tiny little thimbles, no annoyances. If you can't afford to give your players a decent drink. Tell them that. If you can afford to give your players a decent drink, then do it. No futzing around with cutesy tricks about it. Its cheaper for a bartender to do a straight pour than do closely measured shots. Customers get a stiffer drink and the bartender goes on to his next drink order faster. You keep people waiting for a precise pour they get annoyed and go elsewhere. Once you get them in the door, you don't do anything to annoy them. They have to leave with a smile on their face, even if the whore faked the orgasm.

Comps: Just as slot machines have to dribble a few "wins" along the way of taking all your money, so does the Comp System have to have a few "extras" thrown in now and then. My comp system would be generous but would emphasize the reward of valuable and frequent visitors. I would not hem and haw on room comps. Its either Yes or No. Its not "based on your average level of play we will consider etc".

I would be honest and direct. These are our room freebies. These are our Housekeeping Times. These are our booze brands. These are our freebie gambling-trinkets, ... and nothing really NEW. Its a casino, not a whorehouse. You just have to run it as if it were a whorehouse that never needs new girls, just new customers.

No loud music, no cutesy personal greetings at the cattle loading dock, er uh,,, main entrance. Ignore the name on the luggage tags and just address males as Sir and females as Ma'am... and take the darned luggage out of the car as fast as you can. No room upgrades except in exceptional circumstances (we brought our friend along at the last minute, etc.). No mad crunch at the check in desk. Get as many staffers on it as you need to and get the system down pat and then don't change it. A Starbucks type place that serves gourmet coffee right away rather than asking questions about Shady Side of the Mountain or Hand Picked or Fair Trade. Serve the (censored) coffee!! Decent House Bands in rotation. The band gets a steady gig and exposure but you offer your customers variety in the scheduling and venue. Dealers get monthly assignments. Avoid last minute rubber-banding by The Pencil. Dealers have their assigned tables and they go there even if the action is slow. No last minute kinks. No untrained dealers on the craps table because The Pencil had no one else to assign there. Run the place right or close the doors. Stop trying to screw your own dealers and stop trying to screw your customers. Make an honest living and if that means the executives tighten their belts then so be it! No fancy names for restaurants, use descriptive names or atleast add a description each and every time you use the name. Signage should not say 'this way to O'Malleys" but this way to "O'Malley's Irish Pub". And don't tell me that is unnecessary, avoid confusion or delay or disappointments, particularly when your customers are already half sloshed or from a foreign culture. Explicit information clearly presented. You want them in the casino gambling, not frustrated by being unable to find O'Malleys or being disappointed that it didn't serve sushi.
DJTeddyBear
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December 16th, 2010 at 11:37:46 AM permalink
M.E. and MLK might be giving away the farm, particularly in these tough economic times.

Martin is far more of a realist. I'd be more inclined to follow Martin's approach.


However, I would do one thing different. This is a pet peave of mine:

Combine the player's club accounts for couples.


My wife earned Diamond status in Harrah's, while I remain a lowly Gold. She is entitled to bring a guest with her when she goes to the Diamond lounge, and gets on the express line at the restaurants.

Sometimes I want to eat when she doesn't. My choices are to avoid the Diamond lounge, or get on the general line at the restaurants.

OR, I can use a crowbar to remove her from what ever machine she is attached to, just to get into the Diamond lounge.

Does the casino REALLY want me to do that? Why can't I just go on my own, while she continues to gamble?


Some casinos, such as Borgata, will not allow me to get the car from the valet without paying. She gets free valet, so she has to be the one to put in the claim. But she'd rather play a few minutes longer. Doesn't Borgata want that as well?


Similarly, she gets room offers that are far better than mine. On that note, I understand. But if we go in separate cars, and I arrive hours before her, why can't I get a room, and sign for it at the rack rate, then get it re-rated when she gets there? Harrah's properties will not allow that, stating that they are sold out, and can't afford to give me the room, even at rack rate, if she doesn't show up.

For the record, on our last trip to Mohegan Sun, she was able to add additional names to the reservation and anyone could have checked in. She only needed to stop by the desk at some point before we checked out to get it re-rated.


End of rant. I'll get off my soapbox now. Thanks for listening.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Ayecarumba
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December 16th, 2010 at 1:12:26 PM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

Question, if you owned a casino, how would you make it better than the rest?
Bare in mind all your suggestions have to be viable in terms of running a business.



I would make the whole joint (hotel rooms and bars included) non-smoking. I think there are enough smoke averse gamblers to make it viable.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
WizardofEngland
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December 16th, 2010 at 1:27:42 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I would make the whole joint (hotel rooms and bars included) non-smoking. I think there are enough smoke averse gamblers to make it viable.



I like that suggestion!!
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
teddys
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December 16th, 2010 at 1:53:40 PM permalink
Great stuff, FleaStiff. I agree with everything you said -- couldn't have said it better.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
HKrandom
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December 16th, 2010 at 2:46:38 PM permalink
Most gamblers are clueless, giving games with good odds wouldn't attract the good kind of gamblers. If I could I would probably run a place similar to the Wynn where every detail is paid attention to, where the stakes are high and the customers rich. Everything would look fancy and it would be full of luxury shops. Comps for first time customers would be somewhat basic but repeat customers would get free rooms, food, shows, etc. Everything would be high end and very personalized, including the cocktails.
ahiromu
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December 16th, 2010 at 3:15:46 PM permalink
I would have a plethora of 6:5 BJ, but enough 3:2 to keep real gamblers happy. Slots would be set horribly low, like abysmal. Craps would pay 2:1 on both the 2 and 12, 3/4/5 odds. I would have a few nice setup, very happy and cheerful dealers, free middle-of-the-shelf cocktails. People are fucking moronic, give them free drinks and nice dealers and 9/10 wouldn't notice the difference.

What I'd like to make my casino about, primarily, is a 1 on 1 relationship with the customer. Such as if you simply ask when getting chips at a table if you can go 10x - the pit allows it without a second thought. If you ask someone where the best BJ rules are, they'll point you to the right set of tables. If you want to know where the single zero is, someone will bring you over there. This way everyone's happy, the smart gamblers feel appreciated (although they're still playing against a HA) and the idiots (majority) are happy to get their free (decent) drinks.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
EvenBob
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December 16th, 2010 at 3:16:08 PM permalink
Good looking female dealers dressed in nothing but body paint. The tips would be over the top and the male players wouldn't even notice how much they were losing.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
thecesspit
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December 16th, 2010 at 3:38:41 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Good looking female dealers dressed in nothing but body paint. The tips would be over the top and the male players wouldn't even notice how much they were losing.



It's coming one day in Vegas, I'm sure of it.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
FleaStiff
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December 16th, 2010 at 4:11:45 PM permalink
Perhaps you should work for The Evil Empire. Then again, perhaps you already do.
This very sensible business strategy would make your casino bland. The same mashed potatoes you can get anywhere else. Now your "me too" philosophy goes over well with MBA students but would it go over well with gamblers?
If other casinos can distinguish themselves in some manner wouldn't you at least want to be having something that was a unique signature of some sort?

Quite frankly, I'd still go for the good gamble, good food, good drinks and great broads model.

Yes, I'd go for non smoking ... one casino is doing if for a roomful of slots on a trial basis. I think it will work out for them.

Yes, I'd link couples cards, its embarrassing. Would a waiter ever ask your wife if it was okay for you to order a certain entree? So why do they try to determine comp point usage. Don't they know that you should never come between a man and his girl. If they are going to have a fight, so be it but you butt out. A casino should not be trying to lay down the law on matters involving two people who live together. That is just wrong. Would you want to be asked in the midst of a hot roll at that craps table if your wife could have an herbal massage with hot Japanese stones? Whatever goop and glop those girls put on themselves in a spa is always going to be mystery to you anyway. Casinos have to learn to butt out. Link the darned cards, elevate every linked person's status and let them decide how to share the points. Next thing you hear is Harrahs will say sorry... you are only a Gold Card... you have to sleep in a separate bed from a Diamond Status card holder.

Would the offering of 3:2 and banishing of 6:5 be a point of honor but financial loss? If people know they are being well treated they usually are grateful. If they later learn they were being cheated, they may go elsewhere even if its no better there.

Sure, gorgeous dealers, attractive displays are always appreciated. Its nice to have "artwork" around the place. Yet, you do it at 3:2, not 6:5 unless its a flat out Tit Pit and even then, I'd still give 3:2 a try.
AZDuffman
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December 16th, 2010 at 4:35:05 PM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

Question, if you owned a casino, how would you make it better than the rest?
Bare in mind all your suggestions have to be viable in terms of running a business.
What games would you have and not have? Would you offer lower stakes at slightly higher edges?
What sort of cocktails would you serve, good quality or watery horrible stuff?



First I would make everyone who worked for me undersand it is a CASINO-Hotel not a HOTEL-Casino. The more places that forget that the more Vegas becomes Orlando. Anyways, I have also said much of this before but:

First, loose-as-a-goose slots. 90%+ of whatever gets win in the slots will simply get run back thru them again and never hit the door. Players are tired of $20 lasting less than 5 minutes. Let them have some play, they will come back. And if Aunt Betsy does walk out with $500 that only means her and her friends will drop $1,000 over the next year.

Super-aggressive table limits, low during the day to fill the place up. A $5 table may make little profit but an empty table makes no profit.

Free cocktails for players and waitresses that get them back before next tuesday. And real drinks, not cups of ice.

Pit bosses who are encourages and maybe required to comp a dinner to a random player per shift. Now, by random I still mean someone playing at a decent level, but throw in some old-school-anything-can-happen atmosphere.

Old school LOUNGE ROOM with some jazz or other quiet music playing so you can enjoy the music but talk without screaming.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
mkl654321
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December 17th, 2010 at 11:36:31 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I would make the whole joint (hotel rooms and bars included) non-smoking. I think there are enough smoke averse gamblers to make it viable.



I agree with you, and now might finally be the time to do it, but it has been tried, and has failed, at at least three locations in Nevada that I know of.

The test case, I think, was when the big card barns in L.A. were moaning and weeping about the effects of the statewide indoor smoking ban, when it turned out that their business increased by 20% after the ban went into effect. Nevada now has a similar law, but of course, casinos are exempt, and the law is NEVER enforced, even in response to a direct complaint. I would love to see some casino go out on a limb and try to go completely non-smoking. I think it would work now, but the previous failures have made casino owners gun-shy.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Mosca
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December 17th, 2010 at 12:21:54 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I would offer the best possible versions of all games--single deck blackjack with Strip rules, craps with 100X odds, fullpay video poker, the loosest available slots, and a generous slot club with good benefits and promotions that encouraged players to return. I would have a mixture of casual, buffet, and fine dining restaurants, all competitively priced. I would offer well-appointed rooms at excellent prices.

This business model was wildly successful in the past for the few casinos that offered it. The suits and bean-counters are afraid to do so now, though. But my God, I could absolutely blow the competition out of the water if I ran a casino and had free rein to do this.



Not a challenge, a question asked from ignorance: which casinos did this? And why did they change, or fail?

The reason I ask is that the whole thing should be able to be crunched right down to the number; you should be able to decide what you want for your net profit, then build the casino backwards from that.
A falling knife has no handle.
WizardofEngland
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December 17th, 2010 at 12:26:15 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Not a challenge, a question asked from ignorance: which casinos did this? And why did they change, or fail?

The reason I ask is that the whole thing should be able to be crunched right down to the number; you should be able to decide what you want for your net profit, then build the casino backwards from that.



I don't think its as simple as that, if all your games had a 0.1% edge would you make more than a casino who had all games with a massive 80% edge? Where is the happy median?
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
FleaStiff
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December 17th, 2010 at 1:48:22 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

the whole thing should be able to be crunched right down to the number; you should be able to decide what you want for your net profit, then build the casino backwards from that.

Its not just a question of the number crunching, its also of the basic attitude. I once posted a thread that was A Tale of Two Casinos in which I compared comparable lower-tier casinos in which one girl had received "one freakin' dollar" in comps and walked out versus the other casino wherein there was a generous slot club and generous points policy and free tournaments.

I'm sure these two casinos would be fairly equal if the numbers were crunched. Its mainly attitudes and commitments.
Martin
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December 17th, 2010 at 2:18:36 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Perhaps you should work for The Evil Empire. Then again, perhaps you already do.
This very sensible business strategy would make your casino bland. The same mashed potatoes you can get anywhere else. Now your "me too" philosophy goes over well with MBA students but would it go over well with gamblers?
If other casinos can distinguish themselves in some manner wouldn't you at least want to be having something that was a unique signature of some sort?



I assume that this is directed at my model - and I can assure you I don't work for the "empire."

I recently spent some time in the Wynn and absolutely loved the place - good VP, reasonable limits at the tables, very clean, very airy, no stale smokey smell and hardly any customers. What does it have that is unique aside from Steve Wynn's overbearing attention to detail? An interesting buffet. SW is a great steakhouse and it is as good as Morton's, Smith and Wallenskys and any other of the dozens I've eaten at over the years.

My point is simple - a joint is a joint. What makes people come in the door? It certainly isn't good gambling opportunities because if it was most of the places on the strip would be ghost towns. The most reasonable games are craps, blackjack (6 deck, shoe dealt) and roulette. I was in Harrah's for a week and the 6/5 BJ tables were the only ones crowded. You could get a seat at most of the 3-2 tables anytime. They normally had only a couple of roulette wheels going and no more that two craps tables active out of entire population and only one of those would be crowded - I opened and closed tables at both Harrah's and Wynn's.

There were no shortage of cocktail waitresses at either place and I can attest that the drinks weren't "watered down" as I drink my whiskey and cognac straight.

What makes people come through the door is loyalty to the comps. I admit it - I play mostly in the empire because I like the Diamond rating, I like the mini-suites upgrades (45 nights last year alone), I like the free valet parking, I like being able to go to the head of the line, I like having a lounge where I can get a couple of drinks and a knosh and on the East Coast a full meal for the price of a tip. I like the comp'd limo to the airport. Does it bother me that they round up the vig on a lay bet? You bet it does but I'll get over it. Does it bother me that they offer 6/5 BJ? Not a bit - I don't play that game. Does it bother me that they have a zillion penny slot machines that pay 85% - nope.

So if I owned a casino I wouldn't give people free meals - I'd give them free rooms and a way to earn their way to the upper floors and the top shelf. And it really wouldn't matter what kind of gambling I had on the floor because I'd have enough "pro-level" games to satisfy the few "pro's" who came through the door but I'd also have plenty of the games that everyone else liked too.
RaleighCraps
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December 17th, 2010 at 2:55:39 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Not a challenge, a question asked from ignorance: which casinos did this? And why did they change, or fail?

The reason I ask is that the whole thing should be able to be crunched right down to the number; you should be able to decide what you want for your net profit, then build the casino backwards from that.



Quote: WizardofEngland

I don't think its as simple as that, if all your games had a 0.1% edge would you make more than a casino who had all games with a massive 80% edge? Where is the happy median?



A "player's" casino of good games, friendly staff, and good comps would get plenty of customers and action. The problem is good old lady luck is going to play heck with the casino take! Yes, over the long run, the house will bring in close to the projected amount. But, if the edge is that close, there will be lots of times where the casino is on the wrong end of things. So, you would have to have some kind of business plan that accounted for that. Or, you have some other source of income that has a lower variance.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
FleaStiff
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December 17th, 2010 at 3:42:43 PM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

A "player's" casino of good games, friendly staff, and good comps would get plenty of customers and action. The problem is good old lady luck is going to play heck with the casino take!

Yes, you make a good point. Even a plain vanilla casino with good games, good drinks, good comps, etc. will have some scary mornings when the overnight figures come in. However, the mega resorts with their whales playing Baccarat often have the same scary mornings when those whales all won.

Martin makes a good point. No matter how seemingly attractive a casino's offerings should be, its the players who determine actual usage of what is available. Given empty 3:2 tables and full 6:5 tables, I'd be puzzled but puzzled or not, if thats what players do, so be it. I think this summed up by the old adage: If you build a better mousetrap,,, the world will yawn! Perhaps its the same with casinos: we have this mythical casino that is light, airy, smoke-free, has gorgeous Tray Lizards, great comps, 3:2 Blackjack without side bets, 100x craps without Firebets, ... but all the customers are down the street playing at a Sweat The Money shearing-shed.

Alot of the business world now is "capturing" the customer. TV networks want to have early evening lead-ins to capture their audience and keep them all night long. Travel aggregators want to capture the traveller and make the real money not from the airline ticket but from the car rental and hotel reservation. Casinos are simply joining in the game when they want to capture the customer with a Comp System. Even these All Buffets and All Shows deals are nothing other than ways to keep the wandering sheep from straying to far.

I've been in casinos where the craps dealers commented how empty the place was and probably knew their days were numbered. Getting them in the door is the first goal. You can treat them right or you can shear them real close, perhaps even nick them, but you have to get them in the door in the first place.
FleaStiff
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December 18th, 2010 at 7:06:59 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Getting them in the door is the first goal. You can treat them right or you can shear them real close, perhaps even nick them, but you have to get them in the door in the first place.

The Evil Empire seems adept at getting them in the door and keeping them there even when they know they are about to be shorn very closely. Comp loyalty programs help, public relations "planted items" about expecting to lose probably help as well. It seems that 6:5 is a non-issue for most people in Vegas casinos.
Martin
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December 18th, 2010 at 8:01:34 AM permalink
One additional thought, everybody wants "something for nothing." I.E. people will take great risk for great reward as long as the perception of the risk is that it "isn't much." That's how you can explain the popularity of the various state run lotteries, daily pick 3's, pick 4's, pick 6's and the like. The take is horrendous but folks don't care as long as they believe that a big hit is coming their way.

To be real about it - in order to make money at craps, roulette or blackjack (regardless of the rule set) you have to be prepared to grind and most folks don't want to grind. They want to have fun. On my last Vegas trip while I was waiting for the 24-hour cafe to open (the recession turned it into an 18-hour cafe) I sat down at a penny slot, dropped in a $20 bill and pressed "max bet" - $2.40 - three presses later I was a $290 winner. I was stone cold sober and haven't got the slightest idea how I won. People seem to like that because regardless of where I go they play those machines.

You could no more have a casino without those vacuum cleaners than you could without a craps table - but the craps table would be less missed.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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December 18th, 2010 at 8:35:51 AM permalink
Yes, the "atmosphere" has to be there. Vacuum cleaner one-armed bandits do have to be sprinkled liberally around the place. Its part of the atmosphere, its part of the required mix of options. Heck, that darned vertical wheel with the matching bills on the surface of the table... typical carney junk but its got to be there. Tradition, you know!

Couples arrive at a casino and often have divergent interests and abilities. A casino can't be solely for sharp gamblers. You do have to offer lessons even if you try to cater to those players who could teach the lessons in their sleep!

Bingo, bowling and keno have to be available as well. Bingo is a loss-leader that makes its money at the slot machines. Keno is for idiots but even sharp gamblers like to have some action while they in the buffet line. Movies are a draw, particularly as a place to park the teens for awhile.

It can't all be 3:2 blackjack or 1.414 Pass Line bets. Casinos make their money on those who press their luck, those who make center bets, those who get sloshed to the gills.

You've got to have good looking Tray Lizards helping them get sloshed just as you've got to have some dumb bingo caller or give away a free bingo card to an early bird or two.
mkl654321
mkl654321
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December 18th, 2010 at 12:11:09 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Not a challenge, a question asked from ignorance: which casinos did this? And why did they change, or fail?

The reason I ask is that the whole thing should be able to be crunched right down to the number; you should be able to decide what you want for your net profit, then build the casino backwards from that.



The Fiesta in North Las Vegas (now the Fiesta Rancho) did exactly that, and its huge success enabled George Maloof to bankroll the Palms. Then Stations bought it from Maloof and ate it.

The Reserve in Henderson operated under the same model. It was extremely successful. Then Stations ate it, and it is now the Fiesta Henderson.

There were several locals' casinos that offered just about the best gamble and the best value possible, and Stations, and to a lesser extent Coast Properties, embarked on a systematic attempt to acquire those casinos, and establish a monopoly that would destroy good gambling. They have succeeded to a large extent, albeit by taking on company-busting debt in the process.

The reason why offering the best value works is that you actually make the same amount of money with 98% return dollar slots as you do with 93% slots; it just takes longer. People have a fairly fixed daily/weekly/trip gambling budget. But a lower house edge lets them have more fun, for longer. Casino monsters like Harrah's have an exact opposite mentality--get 'em in the door, rape 'em, get em out. I think that as long as the recession lasts, the give-em-value model will be the only successful one.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mrjjj
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December 18th, 2010 at 2:03:55 PM permalink
I would start rumors that I had a couple bias roulette wheels.

The positive side.... Casino profits would SOAR!

The negative side.... All the wasted chair space for the goofs jotting down info.

Ken
bgriffin
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December 18th, 2010 at 2:38:07 PM permalink
I think you hit on something important here, which is that the context of the casino matters. On the Strip, the motivation to offer good rules is limited, since most Strip players are clueless tourists who don't understand or appreciate good rules. And even if there is a budget-exhaustion angle, tourists like to casino-hop, so if you don't take their money, someone else will. The Mandalay actually does a good job of this--most of their games have lousy odds, the better to milk the unaware, but they also have a few excellent tables with low limits in an unassuming corner that let the better-informed gamblers still have a good time. And the extra take at all the other tables helps keep the books balanced. These do have to be money-making businesses at the end of the day, after all, or they wouldn't continue to exist.

If you were building a locals casino in Vegas, or a casino elsewhere in the country that depended more on regulars, it might be easier to sell the good games angle, but the simple and unfortunate fact is that most people just don't care enough to comparison shop. In Atlantic City, where most people are better-informed about their games than the average Strip player (at the least, people tend to know most of basic strategy), there's still not much competition based on odds or game quality, and even if there were, I don't think it would sway many people. Most people choose their destination based on the scene and style of the place--and of course on loyalty program, though they choose which place to become loyal to in the first place based in part on the scene. Most Borgata customers would still choose to go there even if it didn't have the best rules in AC, and likewise, Borgata could go to all-single-0 roulette, 100x odds, and 6D S17 RSA LS blackjack and they still wouldn't attract away people who prefer the vibe of particular other AC properties.

The one thing that helps is a loyalty program that people see as valuable, as others have noted in this thread. I've known lots of people who understand that the rules at Harrah's properties aren't the best, but who still stay and play there because they love the comped rooms (and particularly love the comped rooms in Vegas--their ability to offer a free Vegas trip based on regional casino play is truly a huge differentiator for a lot of people). This is ironic, because again for example in AC, the Harrah's properties may be a bit looser on room comps, but in terms of value toward meal comps and the like, most other properties (including Borgata) are more generous, at least for table players. But something about those free rooms really appeals to people, and especially on the Strip, comped room rates can be oddly hard to come by. I for example usually play at MGM properties in Vegas and at the Borgata in AC. I can almost always get a comped room at the Borgata Su-Fr, but often get no better than a $29 rate offer at the likes of the Excalibur in Vegas. I understand that there are differences in business model and so forth (the hotel rooms are much more of a loss leader in AC than they are in Vegas), but the simple fact remains that if you place a lot of value on getting your Vegas hotel room for free, your best bet is far and away to br loyal to Harrah's. So maybe the answer is to build a Strip casino with a mix of good and bad games and a somewhat freer hand in giving away rooms. Naturally, such a business model is also much easier when you have Harrah's collection of long-since-paid-for buildings in prime locations.
JohnnyQ
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December 18th, 2010 at 5:53:16 PM permalink
I would simply install a self-serve soda pop machine, like what they have at most Burger Kings.
There is one casino in Indiana that has that, and there may be many more, I don't know.........
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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December 18th, 2010 at 6:42:19 PM permalink
The M Resort has several such machine and the waitress in the Deli area will even tell customers to just step over to the machine and help themselves and thereby avoid the charge that goes on their bill if she brings it.

I think a Comps Program is important to most people particularly a somewhat transparent program: simple, quick and easy to redeem.

Players in AC knowing a great deal about the games? There were jokes going around AC when the inexperienced dealers first started there: If you don't know what to pay out on a craps bet, just keep dropping cheques down until one of those New Yorkers smiles, then take that last chip back. The players sometimes do know what is going on and sometimes are simply sheep to be fleeced.
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