rxwine
rxwine
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May 10th, 2019 at 8:14:22 PM permalink
Quote: RS

And now your dream of getting crap service can be met.



Only when you stop doing something you shouldn't have started in the first place do people take it out on you.

I worked for years without tips. Had someone started tipping and then stopped, I might have taken it personally. Did I do a poor job because I wasn't getting tipped. No I did a good job because I'd get fired for one thing. But it didn't occur to me anyway, because the idea of tipping wasn't even in my head.

My beef is two things. Itemization of what extra service I paid for. And choice whether to have any upgraded service at all. I took my car in for maintenance the other day. Had it come back fully detailed and the guy had his hand out for something I never asked for I'd be upset.
One person's freedom is another person's annoying crap.
Mission146
Mission146
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RS
May 10th, 2019 at 8:25:38 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine



My beef is two things. Itemization of what extra service I paid for. And choice whether to have any upgraded service at all. I took my car in for maintenance the other day. Had it come back fully detailed and the guy had his hand out for something I never asked for I'd be upset.



You can choose the downgraded service. Just sit down in the restaurant and inform your server that under no circumstances will he/she be getting a tip from you. I would think you will get the downgraded service in most cases.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Rigondeaux
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RSMission146
May 10th, 2019 at 8:33:20 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

The logic goes, the worker makes more in a restaurant, because the owner won't pay him that much.

Don't you see the problem with that -- the only person who is making out is the owner. We make up the difference as the customer. It's not costing us less. It's not free money coming out of nowhere.



jfc.

Firstly, you need to understand that the attitude you are laying out is at the extreme end of the spectrum in terms of greed/cheapness. MOST people, are happy to pay someone well for a job well done. It is UNUSUAL, to have heart palpitations about giving someone an extra dollar or two, or think to oneself, "man, I wish I could not have my drink refilled and save 80 cents."

The world cannot be built to accommodate the idiosyncrasies of every odd ball out there. (This is why I hate "service animals."). You can't have a whole section of every restaurant for people who are neurotically cheap or consumed by greed, and some bureaucracy for dealing especially with them. Any more than you can have special lanes on the highway for people who want to drive 35mph, or have a special section at the movies where it's OK to yack on your phone.

Building on that, MOST customers benefit from 1) better service, which MOST of them desire. 2) It makes them happy to pay someone fairly.

Society as a whole benefits from middle class jobs.

Yes, the owner benefits too. Great! I'm happy for him! I'm also happy that there are more restaurants for me to choose from because this business model is so great.

The employees ALSO benefit. I'm happy for them too! My waiter can afford to take his kids to the movies. Great! I prefer other people to be happy rather than unhappy. Especially if I am involved in the equation.

Even if I was 100% selfish, I've won a lot of money from bartenders, dealers, etc. Little to none from people who work at Wal-Mart. IDK what business you are in, but it probably needs customers. People who can barely make rent and food aren't going to be customers for a lot of businesses. And it's not just their direct business. If your waiter buys a car, some guy makes a commission. Then that guy can eat out. Then HIS waiter can buy some comic books. Then Bill Ryan can go to a baseball game.... etc. That's why the city of Las Vegas is not just some resorts and a bunch of employee housing, but a city full of car dealerships, comic book stores, restaurants, etc.

Lastly.

JFC!!!

you're now reiterating what RS said. YES. You are going to have to pay the costs of operating the restaurant either way. If tipping disappeared, the amount of money you saved would be pretty small.
rxwine
rxwine
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May 10th, 2019 at 9:06:23 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

You can choose the downgraded service. Just sit down in the restaurant and inform your server that under no circumstances will he/she be getting a tip from you. I would think you will get the downgraded service in most cases.



That would work fine in a place where no tipping was expected. But like I said, when you start doing something, people expect a certain amount of gratuity whether they deserve it or not. You just want me to get poisoned.
One person's freedom is another person's annoying crap.
rxwine
rxwine
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monobonito
May 10th, 2019 at 9:19:57 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Only when you stop doing something you shouldn't have started in the first place do people take it out on you.



My 1st premise: How pro-tipper a-holes ruin it for everyone.

Let's make a possible example. Pro-tipper a-holes start a practice of tipping 20-40 dollars to clerks making medical appointments. Years later after finding out why you've been waiting extra months to get appts, you find out you needed to hand the clerk a tip just to get in the normal line. Clerk has gotten use to the money, now it becomes more of an expectation.

Next thing you know it's spread through hospital services. You end up in a hospital bed with two broken legs and the orderly who used to at least ignore people equally, is down the f***ing hall because you didn't fork over a extra $20 so you laying in your own waste matter for an extra hour.

My 2nd premise (now you got me triggered) remember income inequality. Customers shouldn't be making up his deficient salary, it should always be coming off the top man or woman running the place or Corp FIRST god****it. Shave his salary first.
One person's freedom is another person's annoying crap.
RS
RS
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RigondeauxMaxPenMission146
May 10th, 2019 at 9:45:47 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

My 1st premise: How pro-tipper a-holes ruin it for everyone.

Let's make a possible example. Pro-tipper a-holes start a practice of tipping 20-40 dollars to clerks making medical appointments. Years later after finding out why you've been waiting extra months to get appts, you find out you needed to hand the clerk a tip just to get in the normal line. Clerk has gotten use to the money, now it becomes more of an expectation.

Next thing you know it's spread through hospital services. You end up in a hospital bed with two broken legs and the orderly who used to at least ignore people equally, is down the f***ing hall because you didn't fork over a extra $20 so you laying in your own waste matter for an extra hour.

My 2nd premise (now you got me triggered) remember income inequality. Customers shouldn't be making up his deficient salary, it should always be coming off the top man or woman running the place or Corp FIRST god****it. Shave his salary first.


1. What is a slippery slope logical fallacy?

2. lolwut. How much do you think this would cost the top dog? I mean come on, you gotta be joking here.
нет сговор. нет непроходимость. полный освобождение от ответственности.
Rigondeaux
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RSMission146
May 10th, 2019 at 9:59:11 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

That would work fine in a place where no tipping was expected. But like I said, when you start doing something, people expect a certain amount of gratuity whether they deserve it or not. You just want me to get poisoned.



If someone does solid work for me, they do in fact deserve to get paid. Preferably, a nice wage that allows them to have a reasonable amount of comfort and freedom. I want both of us to come away happy. So if I'm happy, they'll be happy. I know that seems weird to you. But it's not weird. It's actually pretty weird to harbor a bunch of anxiety and resentment about having to pay someone who does work for you, or to want them to be poor.

It's pretty rare that someone has done such shoddy work that I think, "I shouldn't even pay for this. The value is literally zero." At least when they work for tips. Happens more often with people who don't. If they DO work for tips, I can elect to reduce their pay. I've never had such terrible service that I gave a waiter zero. But I'll reduce their pay by 50% or so, maybe 1/100 times. Other times I'll just tip the standard min of 15% if I feel they were just going through the motions. If they are doing their best, which is the norm, I pay them well.

Other times someone who I normally wouldn't tip knocks it out of the park. I'll give them something and we're both really happy. This is good.

Quote: rxwine

My 1st premise: How pro-tipper a-holes ruin it for everyone.

Let's make a possible example. Pro-tipper a-holes start a practice of tipping 20-40 dollars to clerks making medical appointments. Years later after finding out why you've been waiting extra months to get appts, you find out you needed to hand the clerk a tip just to get in the normal line. Clerk has gotten use to the money, now it becomes more of an expectation.

Next thing you know it's spread through hospital services. You end up in a hospital bed with two broken legs and the orderly who used to at least ignore people equally, is down the f***ing hall because you didn't fork over a extra $20 so you laying in your own waste matter for an extra hour.

My 2nd premise (now you got me triggered) remember income inequality. Customers shouldn't be making up his deficient salary, it should always be coming off the top man or woman running the place or Corp FIRST god****it. Shave his salary first.



Premise 1 is some fantasy world in your imagination, and what you are describing is more like a 3rd world bribery system. Actually, tipping generally works the other way because you tip after the fact. So you can refuse to pay the person who provided the service, after you recieved it. (Which basically makes you a theif). Moreover, you are not paying someone off for a special favor. You are paying somebody who has provided you with a service for their work.

There are a handful of cases where a tip is more of a bribe to get a special favor. But those are unusual.

Premise 2 is also unrealistic, especially in the U.S. That's just not how things work. Real wages have been going down since like the late 70s and there are fewer middle class jobs than ever. The CEO of CET isn't going to just spontaniously give away his salary to all the waiters so that extreme cheapskates don't have to tip. Even if he did, I doubt he makes enough to cover it.

I mean, I can say, Bezos, Buffet and Gates SHOULD start a trust that pays poker dealers so that I don't have to tip. So what? That's never going to happen on planet earth. It's just some idea in my head. So what's it got to do with anything?
rxwine
rxwine
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May 10th, 2019 at 10:01:43 PM permalink
Quote: RS

1. What is a slippery slope logical fallacy?

2. lolwut. How much do you think this would cost the top dog? I mean come on, you gotta be joking here.



Quote:

Logic and critical thinking textbooks typically discuss slippery slope arguments as a form of fallacy but usually acknowledge that "slippery slope arguments can be good ones if the slope is real—that is, if there is good evidence that the consequences of the initial action are highly likely to occur.



The point isn't that top dog cover all, but whether top dog is even trying, or just taking as much as possible.

I'm not joking, except when I am. Best to keep guessing which, if you need to occupy your mind space on something.

Edit, there is also plenty of evidence that top dogs reward themselves much quicker and more often than they move the benefits of those at the bottom. If they don't feel guilty about it, I don't feel guilty about calling it out.
One person's freedom is another person's annoying crap.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 10th, 2019 at 10:38:01 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Ugh. Unless GoodWill is paying more than I would think on used clothes, we didn’t really experience anyone leave anything of any great value. We did have a lady swear up and down for three days that she left a big skin cream canister that actually had a couple thousand of jewelry in it, but she ended up finding it in the back of her van in a small cooler that the husband just shoved it in while they were getting ready.

Of course, vehemently denying it and eventually getting angry is what you would do if you had stolen it or if you hadn’t, which is what she was accusing the housekeeper and myself of, so that’s what happened. She was almost begrudging rather than apologetic when she called and said it’d been found, though I did convince her to call the franchise and ask them to remove her complaint from us.

Why the hell you would keep expensive jewelry in such a thing I have no idea. Prior to her calling us, my operating assumption was that the housekeeper just threw away the skin cream canister as the people were checkouts. They wouldn’t really turn in that kind of stuff. Where would you stop? Bars of soap that are only half used? I think the stupidest thing that I’d ever had anyone get mad about was actually a half bottle of shampoo because it was, “Expensive shampoo.” They were SHOCKED that the housekeeper would just throw it away or that the hotel would allow for such a thing.

You probably only had broke ass b*****s staying at that crack shack.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
RS
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Mission146
May 10th, 2019 at 11:04:07 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Quote:

Logic and critical thinking textbooks typically discuss slippery slope arguments as a form of fallacy but usually acknowledge that "slippery slope arguments can be good ones if the slope is real—that is, if there is good evidence that the consequences of the initial action are highly likely to occur.



The point isn't that top dog cover all, but whether top dog is even trying, or just taking as much as possible.

I'm not joking, except when I am. Best to keep guessing which, if you need to occupy your mind space on something.


They (slippery slope arguments) CAN be valid. That doesn't mean yours is. Yours is terrible. You are suggesting you wouldn't get health care at a hospital because you don't tip in this fantasy-land you cooked up.

What you're suggesting (in this thread as a whole) is so far removed from reality & logic.....it's.....I don't even know how to respond anymore. Seemingly everything you write is wrong or backed by mere desire without considering the effects...all just to "fix" a problem that doesn't even exist. The problem is purely imaginative. I suppose I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just messing around and you got rigindux and me in a good prank wasting our time.
нет сговор. нет непроходимость. полный освобождение от ответственности.

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