Gabes22
Gabes22
Joined: Jul 19, 2011
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May 10th, 2019 at 4:41:11 PM permalink
Quote: Nathan

I wonder if menus should just automatically put tip and tax into the menu price. For example, a steak quad(, ribeye steak, fries, margarita, and a ice cream brownie is $40. With tax and tip, that is roughly $49. Why not take out the guesswork and say right on the menu,"Steak quad-$49?



I like the concept. But who will be the first one to take the risk and charge people 20% above FMV. Granted, it will be the same at the end of the night but there is ample evidence across multiple industries that might cause hesitation.

For instance, in air travel, Southwest Airlines which doesn't charge for checked bags does not even compete on many travel sites because their fees are included in the price of the ticket and it would take them off the front page.

It would be akin to being the first Vegas Hotel to include the resort fee with their advertised hotel rate on these travel sites. I mean $120 a night is the same as $79 a night plus $41 resort fee but when someone booking a vacation sees two hotels equal star level with one at $79 and one at $120 most people are gonna gravitate toward $79 despite the hidden fees
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
Nathan
Nathan
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May 10th, 2019 at 5:21:25 PM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

I like the concept. But who will be the first one to take the risk and charge people 20% above FMV. Granted, it will be the same at the end of the night but there is ample evidence across multiple industries that might cause hesitation.

For instance, in air travel, Southwest Airlines which doesn't charge for checked bags does not even compete on many travel sites because their fees are included in the price of the ticket and it would take them off the front page.

It would be akin to being the first Vegas Hotel to include the resort fee with their advertised hotel rate on these travel sites. I mean $120 a night is the same as $79 a night plus $41 resort fee but when someone booking a vacation sees two hotels equal star level with one at $79 and one at $120 most people are gonna gravitate toward $79 despite the hidden fees




I got my idea from my United Kingdom Customers who ask me why the Hanes 3 pack shirt says 14.99 on the shelf and at the register it is $16.04. I tell them that tax gets added at the register. They claim that in the UK, tax is already added at the shelf, so that Hanes pack would say $16.04 at the shelf. That's actually a good concept. 😃
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux 
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May 10th, 2019 at 6:49:37 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: Rigondeaux

I think, perhaps being tech nerds who think in spread sheets, they made the false assumption that people only care about the total cost of the service, regardless of where it goes. So they wanted to keep the "tip" portion of the price for themselves. But they were wrong. Most people are happy to pay an extra amount, IF THEY KNOW, it allows the person who is serving them, and talking to them and looking them in the eye, to live in a decent place and put food on the table.


Note: Emphasis mine.

I think they are right. I submit that employers of tip-receiving employees pay them less by about the amount they estimate the tip wills be. Casino dealers at even the nicest of properties here in Vegas make not much more than minimum wage. The casinos get away with it because the dealers can count on most of their income from tips.

Speaking for myself only, I'd rather pay one amount only and end the guessing game. I submit most people know this and think as I do.



As far as I can tell, you're agreeing with me.

Tipped employees: the employers pay them much less, yet overall they often make a good living.

Non tipped employees: The employers pay them more, yet they make less.

Uber went with number 2, not understanding that many people will pay a bigger total price, IF they know it is going to the person doing the work for them, and not to some rich guy. They thought that customers would be willing to "tip" a giant corporation instead.

Now they have a dissatisfied, lower quality workforce. And their prices are rising, leaving customers dissatisfied. And, they can't turn a profit, even constantly slashing wages and raising prices.



Quote: kuma

I have spent a good deal of time in Japan, never received better service anywhere in the U.S. or other tipping culture, enjoyed my experience more because I did not obsess over what was appropriate or worry about ruining someoneís day, and didnít pay any more than I otherwise would have. I have been told that tipping there is considered a sign of their poor service, as if you are saying ďplease try harder next time.Ē They more value (and expect) politeness.

My own feeling is that I wish it was this way here in the U.S. Of course, I think comfort in tipping at a certain level for a specific service or not tipping at all for poor service or certain services is somewhat a personality trait and that is why there is disagreement on this. It seems non-confrontational and uncertain folks might over-tip, and might be the ones who prefer it go away.

I had a $360 handpay (!?!) the other day and while waiting for the tech all I could think about was what I should do. I am sure many of you are laughing at this. I am not a newbie ó I have had this experience many times over 25 years, and it is never enjoyable. I admit, I probably have mental issues.



I don't know the particulars of Japan and each individual country. However, it seems like there is a political or business culture that seeks to provide decent wages for workers in a lot of these countries. Someone recently told me (ITT?), for example, that in Australia, dealers make $30/hr. Of course, those countries also all have stronger social safety nets as well. So making $30/hr in Oz is probably like making $40/hr here, in terms of your lifestyle.

In America, non-tipped workers in the service industry generally hover around poverty and have they have less social safety net than in any other first world country. Whether you're for it or against it, that's just the way it is. I don't totally know the reasons for it.

Not to veer too far off topic, but over recent decades, members of both parties have favored policies to reduce the middle class by as much as possible (open borders, outsourcing, student loan debt, reduced bankruptcy protection, increased health care costs, diminished social services, regressive taxation, keeping min wage low, eliminating unions etc. etc.) Not expand it. So, it's very unlikely that the entire country is going to become like Japan or Australia and people are going to start making $30/hr and have tons of social services and less student loan debt and so forth. It's the exact opposite.

Anyway, the reality of the situation is that in the U.S. these are often good, middle class or working class jobs: waiter, bartender, dealer, cocktails, valet, bell hop or doorman and (previously) taxi driver.

These people typically live around the poverty line: big box employees, fast food, uber drivers, custodians, call center, bank teller.

So CLEARLY, tipping works better in our culture.

If tipping causes you anxiety, why not just work on reducing your anxiety? Seems better than destroying someone else's livelihood.

In general, I don't understand why so many people are angered or anxious about giving someone a couple of dollars for a job well done. Maybe it's related to this being a gambling forum. People hung up on money or unusually greedy?
rxwine
rxwine
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May 10th, 2019 at 7:13:52 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux



These people typically live around the poverty line: big box employees, fast food, uber drivers, custodians, call center, bank teller.



So, you believe Walmart, Mcdonalds, and the like would be good paying jobs if they encouraged tipping? And I suppose business would improve as well. Maybe you should bring it up to the corporate heads. Maybe they just didn't think of it.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux 
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May 10th, 2019 at 7:26:34 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

So, you believe Walmart, Mcdonalds, and the like would be good paying jobs if they encouraged tipping? And I suppose business would improve as well. Maybe you should bring it up to the corporate heads. Maybe they just didn't think of it.



Possibly. I already floated the idea that, one way we could bring back the middle class would be to expand tipping.

Do you deny that, overall, people who work for tips do far better than people who work similar jobs without tips?

I can't think of a job in the service industry where people make good money without either tips or commission. I don't think it's a coincidence.
rxwine
rxwine
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May 10th, 2019 at 7:43:48 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

I can't think of a job in the service industry where people make good money without either tips or commission. I don't think it's a coincidence.



The logic goes, the worker makes more in a restaurant, because the owner won't pay him that much.

Don't you see the problem with that -- the only person who is making out is the owner. We make up the difference as the customer. It's not costing us less. It's not free money coming out of nowhere.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
RS
RS
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May 10th, 2019 at 7:44:25 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Yeah, but why your idea sucks here.

That waiter doesn't know if you're are actually going to pay him a good tip. He hopes you do, but you're so called great idea of tipping guarantees him ZILCH. Why should he not get what he deserves when he deserves it?

I'm fine with paying extra for people doing extra when I want it. He or she makes money; I get exactly what I want.


You're right, he isn't guaranteed anything. But the reality is, it's a fairly stable job. It's not like he's going to be going through long droughts of not getting any tips. But don't pretend that if something isn't guaranteed there's a realistic risk of it not happening. Sun isn't guaranteed to be there tomorrow, but I'll bet every dollar I have that it will be.

Quote: kuma

I have spent a good deal of time in Japan, never received better service anywhere in the U.S. or other tipping culture, enjoyed my experience more because I did not obsess over what was appropriate or worry about ruining someoneís day, and didnít pay any more than I otherwise would have. I have been told that tipping there is considered a sign of their poor service, as if you are saying ďplease try harder next time.Ē They more value (and expect) politeness.


Japan has a much different culture than the USA. I don't think most Americans, at least in the service industry, have the same kind of gusto in providing great service that you see in some Asian countries.

I didn't realize people's experiences got soured because they may have a tough time figuring out how much to tip or that people even obsess over how much to tip.

Quote: AxelWolf

$2 an hour from tips and an extra $5 an hour from pilfering crap.


I think you forgot several 0's after that $5.

Quote: rxwine

Maybe I could enjoy the same restaurant RS does. Just create a section of seats like a high limit room. RS can sit in the seats where he can pay the male waiter with a tight butt to hustle by filling his water glass every 30 seconds as much as he likes and Iíll sit in the cheap seats eating the same meal trying to make my water last the entire meal, happily not being bothered by the one armed waitress with a fright wig and butt wider than a school bus.


That sounds like absolute torture, to be honest. Trying to preserve 1 cup of water for a whole meal....ugh. I drink 2-3 glasses of water or other beverage when I'm having a meal. Reminds me of a friend of a friend in college -- he was pretty cheap (not calling you cheap) and he'd buy those little mini dixie cups. He'd use them to drink milk while eating dinner, effectively rationing himself on his milk consumption so he wouldn't go through half half the jug in a single meal. To me, that's just pure misery (aside from the fact milk drinkers are.....well, they're just "different"). Once my drink gets down to 1/4 or even 1/2 full, I'm wanting a refill because I can drink the remaining amount in 2 gulps.
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Mission146
Mission146
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May 10th, 2019 at 7:47:53 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

$2 an hour from tips and an extra $5 an hour from pilfering crap.



Ugh. Unless GoodWill is paying more than I would think on used clothes, we didnít really experience anyone leave anything of any great value. We did have a lady swear up and down for three days that she left a big skin cream canister that actually had a couple thousand of jewelry in it, but she ended up finding it in the back of her van in a small cooler that the husband just shoved it in while they were getting ready.

Of course, vehemently denying it and eventually getting angry is what you would do if you had stolen it or if you hadnít, which is what she was accusing the housekeeper and myself of, so thatís what happened. She was almost begrudging rather than apologetic when she called and said itíd been found, though I did convince her to call the franchise and ask them to remove her complaint from us.

Why the hell you would keep expensive jewelry in such a thing I have no idea. Prior to her calling us, my operating assumption was that the housekeeper just threw away the skin cream canister as the people were checkouts. They wouldnít really turn in that kind of stuff. Where would you stop? Bars of soap that are only half used? I think the stupidest thing that Iíd ever had anyone get mad about was actually a half bottle of shampoo because it was, ďExpensive shampoo.Ē They were SHOCKED that the housekeeper would just throw it away or that the hotel would allow for such a thing.
Vultures can't be choosers.
RS
RS
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RigondeauxMission146
May 10th, 2019 at 7:54:14 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

The logic goes, the worker makes more in a restaurant, because the owner won't pay him that much.

Don't you see the problem with that -- the only person who is making out is the owner. We make up the difference as the customer. It's not costing us less. It's not free money coming out of nowhere.


You do realize that your meal is going to cost you more in a tip-less restaurant so the employee can get paid more by the employer? It's not like a $100 meal + $20 tip in a tipped restaurant and $100 meal + $0 tip in a non-tipped restaurant. The owner has to make up the difference one way or another. Why do you want to be forced to pay the restaurant an extra $20 just so they can give part of that back to their employees?

I guess another way to even it out would be to cut employees. If there's 12 employees working a restaurant, the owner may figure if he's going to start paying them $15/hour, then he's going to cut it to 8 employees and make them work harder. He's paying them more now, right, why shouldn't they work harder? And now your dream of getting crap service can be met. Now you have terrible service, your food is the same or more expensive, the employees are making less money than they were before, and there are fewer people working. Utopian dream.
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Mission146
Mission146
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RigondeauxRS
May 10th, 2019 at 8:10:52 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

The logic goes, the worker makes more in a restaurant, because the owner won't pay him that much.

Don't you see the problem with that -- the only person who is making out is the owner. We make up the difference as the customer. It's not costing us less. It's not free money coming out of nowhere.



I donít recall what your personal tipping standards were, but I can tell you that the owner is going to, ďMake out,Ē either way. Itís not like heís suddenly going to incur an increase in labor costs and not do anything about it with price increases.

If you want to know who actually makes out in the current system, thatís an easy one: The people who donít tip are making out. The prices are going to go up if we get rid of tipping, so they canít possibly want that because itíll cost them more money...though itís a fine justification in the meantime. What the non-tippers should do is just quietly donít leave a tip rather than not leave a tip AND try to justify themselves to the majority of society that does tip.

Even if someone doesnít think the current state of affairs should be the case, the person knows what the state of affairs is right now. I say donít rip the server (or whoever) off and use other avenues to try to effectuate change. Why do you think the tipped employees, for the most part, donít want to move away from tipping? Answer: Because they know thereís not a chance in hell the owner pays what they are making with tips on direct.
Vultures can't be choosers.

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