AZDuffman
AZDuffman
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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RogerKint
December 15th, 2018 at 7:33:23 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Why not? I waited six weeks for a minor surgical treatment on the NHS and got it free. A family member has been given an NHS appointment in April 2019 for a very minor, non-urgent (cosmetic) operation and will be going private to get it done just after Christmas.

Necessary = free
Non urgent but necessary = free but wait a while.
Luxury or expedited = modest cost



"Why not" is simple. Because in a short time you will end up de facto having to pay for everything or end up waiting months to over a year. Happens every time. Remember the old Soviet joke?

SOVIET DOCTOR: Good news, comrade, you just need minor surgery. Come back 4 years from tomorrow and we will fix you up!
SOVIET CITIZEN: Can we make it in the afternoon?
SOVIET DOCTOR: Comrade, it is in 4 years, what is the difference morning or afternoon?
SOVIET CITIZEN: Well, the telephone company is installing my new line in the morning.

What it comes down to is trusting government. You seem to trust your government. Most Americans do not trust government. At least the red-pill takers do not. We have seen what government has done and how it runs things. No thanks.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
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December 15th, 2018 at 7:47:51 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Only when they think "the rich" will pay for it all. When you tell the bottom 47% they will have to start paying taxes to fund it all their attitude changes.

BTW: what does "large portion of the population not recieving care" mean? What percent is "large?" Can you please cite or at least explain?



Refer to the graph I posted. Or, if you don't trust my selection, just google image search "health care costs per capita." Yes, you pay taxes, instead of funding a gazzillion dollar insurance industry. The end result is that medical costs are cut in half. You pay less and get more. That's why people want it.

This was also the first thing to catch my eye in a google search. A gallup poll says that 12.2% of Americans don't have insurance.

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/01/17/477331.htm

Of course, even a homeless person can go to an ER. But roughly 1/8 don't have full medical care. Heck, even if you ARE insured, seeking treatment is tedious and expensive. We paid over $400 a month and my ex's employer paid more than that. She visited a hospital with stomach pains that turned out to not be a big deal and we got a bill for $3,000. Healthy people in our 30s.

Other things not factored into our expenses: 1) millions of hours of unpaid labor, dealing with health insurance and picking plans, and open enrollment and savings plans etc.

2) The economic and social costs of people becoming bankrupt due to medical costs, the leading cause of bankrupsy in this country.

If you include those, our healthcare system might be 3x more expensive.

This is ALMOST an apolitical issue. There really is no rational discussion about which system is most effective if your goal is simply to give the cheapest, most effective care to as many people as possible. The only question is if the more effective system violates your political ideology for whatever reason.
FinsRule
FinsRule
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
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Thanks for this post from:
AZDuffman
December 15th, 2018 at 7:48:15 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

"Why not" is simple. Because in a short time you will end up de facto having to pay for everything or end up waiting months to over a year. Happens every time. Remember the old Soviet joke?

SOVIET DOCTOR: Good news, comrade, you just need minor surgery. Come back 4 years from tomorrow and we will fix you up!
SOVIET CITIZEN: Can we make it in the afternoon?
SOVIET DOCTOR: Comrade, it is in 4 years, what is the difference morning or afternoon?
SOVIET CITIZEN: Well, the telephone company is installing my new line in the morning.

What it comes down to is trusting government. You seem to trust your government. Most Americans do not trust government. At least the red-pill takers do not. We have seen what government has done and how it runs things. No thanks.



In America, we write “in god we trust” on our money. In Soviet Russia, we have no money!
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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December 15th, 2018 at 8:09:47 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux



This was also the first thing to catch my eye in a google search. A gallup poll says that 12.2% of Americans don't have insurance.



So what?

For many people, health insurance is a bad deal. If you are male 20-30 it is really not needed. If you are female of the same age same thing unless you plan to have kids.

Quote:

Of course, even a homeless person can go to an ER. But roughly 1/8 don't have full medical care. Heck, even if you ARE insured, seeking treatment is tedious and expensive. We paid over $400 a month and my ex's employer paid more than that. She visited a hospital with stomach pains that turned out to not be a big deal and we got a bill for $3,000. Healthy people in our 30s.



And your example is part of why health care costs so much and costs more when people have more insurance. Had you known in advance the cost would be $3,000 you might have decided to tough it out a day or two. But when everything is covered, people take every test suggested since someone else is paying. John Stossell does a parody of this on YT showing what would happen if we all had "food insurance." Walks the meat section of a grocery and loads up with the best cuts, since he has "food insurance"

Quote:

This is ALMOST an apolitical issue. There really is no rational discussion about which system is most effective if your goal is simply to give the cheapest, most effective care to as many people as possible. The only question is if the more effective system violates your political ideology for whatever reason.



It is a totally political issue. Liberals want government care for the control of the masses it brings. Do you really think Nancy Pelosi cares that you have good health care? Or Hillary Clinton?

Here is the bottom line on a health care system. Pick any 2 of the three you want:

1. GOOD
2. FAST
3. CHEAP
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
OnceDear
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OnceDear
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December 15th, 2018 at 8:17:23 AM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

Waiting for the US to impose a television licence

LOL. Yes that is an anachronism £150 per yaer to operate a tv receiving device.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
MaxPen
MaxPen
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December 15th, 2018 at 8:25:03 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

It's funny you should say that. As a European at the moment, I see an awful lot of tax avoidance and cheating in some EU countries. Italy, Spain and France are particulary bad for grey economy tax dodging. But we have VAT on consumption and high tax on Petrol and Diesel, and that goes a long way to making tax unavoidable.

The VAT system encourages some small traders to go 'legit' because they get to offset some tax in exchange for effectively running the system. Tax cheats find it harder and harder to spend their CASH as we are developing 'Proceeds of Crime', benefit fraud and anti money laundering legislation. It's pretty effective in squishing freeloaders and cheats. There will always be poor people who are prepared to live in significant poverty rather than working, but that's not such a popular life choice here. A price we generally accept.

I personally had a lot of fun trying to persuade a UK online casino that I was not money laundering when my total wagering went above £2k!!!

More and more, AML laws make spending 'Cash in hand' untaxed income tricky. Try paying cash for a new car in the UK and you'd probably have to show where your funds came from. Certainly so if buying property.



I just got back from a little over 2 weeks in Italy. I would estimate 2/3 of the businesses, mostly mom and pop operations I dealt with were working a scheme to avoid the tax collector. I will write about some of the shenanigans when I get some sleep.
OnceDear
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OnceDear
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MaxPen
December 15th, 2018 at 8:26:50 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

"Why not" is simple. Because in a short time you will end up de facto having to pay for everything or end up waiting months to over a year. Happens every time. Remember the old Soviet joke?


Short time? 75 years? So, we managed to have our NHS survive for about 75 years. We love it, we fight for it and it survives.

Should we aspire to just abandon it and go for a US equivalent?.

Yes, it might sneak up on us that we get massive cost or massive wait, but they ain't managed to do that yet.

Any Brit political party that showed a tendency to ban Private health treatment would get crushed. Any party that wanted to close down the NHS would also get crushed.. All our major parties run on maintaining the middle ground that we have at the moment because they know haw we treasure it.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
OnceDear
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OnceDear
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December 15th, 2018 at 8:34:31 AM permalink
Quote: MaxPen

I just got back from a little over 2 weeks in Italy. I would estimate 2/3 of the businesses, mostly mom and pop operations I dealt with were working a scheme to avoid the tax collector. I will write about some of the shenanigans when I get some sleep.

I can believe that. Italy is one of the worst European countries where grey market and criminal enterprise are endemic.
BT, my ex-employer, had an Italian division which was found to be cooking the books big-time. Nearly broke the whole Group.
Italy, Greece, Spain, Hungary and a few other countries are happy to contribute to EU laws but to hell with complying with them.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
darkoz
darkoz 
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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December 15th, 2018 at 8:45:34 AM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

Waiting for the US to impose a television licence



Uhh

Didnt they force everyone to get digital signals and throw out all those rabbit ears a few years ago
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Boz
Boz
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
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AZDuffman
December 15th, 2018 at 8:48:49 AM permalink
Some days are better than others for working Americans. Yesterday was one of the best! When the SC upholds it will an even better one.

Now if we could just get the Farm Bill with the work requirements passed.

Make Americans Accountable Again!
Last edited by: Boz on Dec 15, 2018

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