MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
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September 25th, 2017 at 4:06:55 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Do these qualify as Personal Insults?



While I took little umbrage, I believe his flames are in violation of the applicable forum rule.
Last edited by: MrV on Sep 25, 2017
"What, me worry?"
ontariodealer
ontariodealer
Joined: Aug 5, 2013
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September 25th, 2017 at 8:00:12 PM permalink
mr v...its like when I called that idiot superick an idiot......that was an insult.
get second you pig
RS
RS
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
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September 25th, 2017 at 9:21:40 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

As an AP, I disagree with this. There are plenty of reasons to play non-AP...

1) Checking new games for vulnerabilities (both known and "new" games).
2) Learning how a new game works/is played in a particular casino (online practice doesn't always equate to actual casino experience).
3) Putting in 'some' action at games other than your primary AP game.
4) As TomG pointed out, there could be "some" entertainment value for VERY cheap -EV.
5) Near "free" (cheap) drinks lol.
6) Hanging out with non-AP friends and wanting to have fun with them.
7) etc.

The list could go on.


1 & 2 are essentially +EV if your intention is to scout and practice. Buying software in it of itself is -EV, but the gains you get from it make it +EV. Driving around different casinos and checking conditions is the same -- the act itself is -EV, but it can (and should) yield to +EV situations.

Idk what #3 means, unless you mean it as a form of cover play. In this case, although the cover play itself is -EV, overall its +EV because it allows you to play the main game for more hours.

#4 is definitely -EV.....unless you want to go the route of comparing that to something else you'd do for entertainment....but I think that's also a slippery slope and can be dangerous thinking.

#5 if your goal is to get drinks cheaper than you'd get them instead, then it's sorta +EV....like if you're going out clubbing or whatever y'all young whippersnappers do now a days with your face unions and SnackChats, cheaper to get loaded up at the bar for a few bucks than it is in the club for $20+/drink.

#6 yes this is -EV.



I've known several APs who are too scared to play anything without knowing 100% they have an advantage. It's like they don't realize they can play a game for a few minutes at a 1 or 2% HE, and if it's no good they can get up and leave.....but if it's good, they can play it at an advantage ranging from maybe 3% up to like 100% advantage, and they can play at such an advantage for hours.

It seems like the same kind of APs are the ones who won't touch "bad" games. They'll only play VP if it's 99.54% (9/6 JOB) or higher return....not even considering that the 8/5 JOB may yield a much higher advantage. I was playing a promotion next to another AP. He was playing something like 9/7 DB and I was playing something I don't even remember what it was (8/6 DDB maybe? Or super bonus?) but a good 1-1.5% lower base return. I asked him why he was playing the DB and he said it's the highest returning game and "would you rather play a 99% game or a 97.5% game?" I said "I'd rather play a 104% game than a 103% game." He didn't figure it out....plus he was an a**hole.
#TeamNathan
RogerKint
RogerKint
Joined: Dec 5, 2011
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September 25th, 2017 at 11:26:11 PM permalink
Quote: RS



I've known several APs who are too scared to play anything without knowing 100% they have an advantage.



Guiltyyyyyyyyyyyyy.jpg
"You can tell it's real cause it looks so fake" - Musk
mamat
mamat
Joined: Jul 13, 2015
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September 26th, 2017 at 2:35:05 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

As an AP, I disagree with this. There are plenty of reasons to play non-AP...

1) Checking new games for vulnerabilities (both known and "new" games).
2) Learning how a new game works/is played in a particular casino (online practice doesn't always equate to actual casino experience).
3) Putting in 'some' action at games other than your primary AP game.
4) As TomG pointed out, there could be "some" entertainment value for VERY cheap -EV.
5) Near "free" (cheap) drinks lol.
6) Hanging out with non-AP friends and wanting to have fun with them.

I play LOTS of -EV games.

If you are playing to make money, a possible guideline (considering only cash, not non-cash benefits) is:
(A) (Gross Profits on +EV games) - Expenses - Leaks (Gross Loss/Profit on -EV games, Errors on +EV games, Gross Loss/Profit on Unknown EV games) >= 0 (or desired profit)

There is no mathematical reason one has to play "only" +EV games.
(B) If Leaks < Net Profits (on +EV games), you are still +EV overall.

Even if your Leaks are 50% of your Net Profits, you can still be quite profitable.

------
Beyond Romes's good list, some other cute reasons to play -EV games.
7) For fun. (And Leaks < Net Profits as above).

8) Confusing AP competitors...about new games. If you have a known history among APs for recreationally blowing money on junk -EV games, you might be able to play a new game for X weeks before everyone else gets wise. Sometimes most of the profit in a new game occurs in the first few months.

AP competitors might include (a) slot APs (b) other APs who play a little slots (c) "player-hustlers" - regular heavy players who learn some AP methods

9) Confusing AP competitors...about when to play progressives. Playing a -EV game, or passing up a +EV game. P.S. You might only play a -EV progreesive for a few minutes or for a very small dollar amount (e.g. put in $100, but never intend to spend more than $5).

10) Playing Free Play. Sometimes no +EV games are available.

11) "Representing yourself" as a "particular type" of player for casino staff/Hosts (possibly part of a chain). You might say that this has long-term +EV.

------
P.S. To answer the OP's question.
a) My biggest current leak is Sub-100% Video Poker. I'm down about -20K in the past 2 years (roughly 97.5%). Lifetime loss is about the same.
b) Craps. Lifetime, I might be down -5K to -20K. Didn't keep records.
c) Horse betting. Tried twice. Lost both times. Got a "free" T-Shirt.
d) -EV slots. If you include mistakes (where I thought the game was +EV), games which I'm not sure about EV, R&D (Research & Development), fun, camouflage, could be -50K to -100K (or more) lifetime.
i keep track of "fun/camo" play separately from gross profits, but not usually mistakes & R&D.

There are many games where I thought I might have a winning strategy, won $1,000+, and ended up losing most/all of the profits.
Last edited by: mamat on Sep 26, 2017
Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
  • Threads: 173
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September 26th, 2017 at 2:21:05 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

As an AP, I disagree with this. There are plenty of reasons to play non-AP...

1) Checking new games for vulnerabilities (both known and "new" games).
2) Learning how a new game works/is played in a particular casino (online practice doesn't always equate to actual casino experience).
3) Putting in 'some' action at games other than your primary AP game.
4) As TomG pointed out, there could be "some" entertainment value for VERY cheap -EV.
5) Near "free" (cheap) drinks lol.
6) Hanging out with non-AP friends and wanting to have fun with them.
7) etc.

The list could go on.



I can see how some of those would be part of APing, though. The others, hanging with friends and cheap entertainment value, I guess that's a choice I hadn't considered. Over the years of hanging here, I've developed a picture of APers as loners and misanthropes. (That's neither good nor bad, I'm pretty much a loner, and I'd be a misanthrope if I thought I could pull it off.)
NO KILL I
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
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Thanks for this post from:
RogerKint
September 27th, 2017 at 11:09:39 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

All my gambling is at -EV games: high limit slots and craps.

Sure, I hate to lose, and overall I do lose.

But not all the time.

Hey, it's stimulation, it's recreation, it's something I enjoy, and the best thing is I only risk losing money (something I have earned and saved quite a bit of over the years, so it's really no big deal).

I could have spent an equivalent amount on pursuing another hobby, but the hobbies that I'd want to take up would probably cause me to incur a risk I'd rather not undertake.

Sky diving / base jumping, car / boat racing, cheating on my wife: all would offer stimulation, but oh what a potential price I might have to pay when things go south, as they often do.

I don't mind tilting against windmills.



I thought skydiving was extremely safe.

As long is there are no rap concerts within 25 miles of the skydiving store.
camapl
camapl
Joined: Jun 22, 2010
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September 27th, 2017 at 2:49:00 PM permalink
Quote: RS

...It seems like the same kind of APs are the ones who won't touch "bad" games. They'll only play VP if it's 99.54% (9/6 JOB) or higher return....not even considering that the 8/5 JOB may yield a much higher advantage. I was playing a promotion next to another AP. He was playing something like 9/7 DB and I was playing something I don't even remember what it was (8/6 DDB maybe? Or super bonus?) but a good 1-1.5% lower base return. I asked him why he was playing the DB and he said it's the highest returning game and "would you rather play a 99% game or a 97.5% game?" I said "I'd rather play a 104% game than a 103% game." He didn't figure it out....plus he was an a**hole.



Regarding 8/5 JOB > 9/6 JOB, are you talking about better mailers on the inferior pay table?

What was the promo that made 9/7 DB inferior?

As for the OP's question, I'm pretty tight when it comes to -EV plays aside from determining meter rise on progressives in a -EV state or checking out unknown games for +EV potential. To me my biggest leak might be playing (on occasion) at either at too high or an unknown ROR for my BR, especially on Must-Hit-By's. I only bring this up as running out of money would be ---EV, even on +EV plays. I could do better to balance time management (betting bigger) with money management (betting smaller), and playing with competition tends to push the issue.
* Actual results may vary.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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September 29th, 2017 at 7:24:05 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

See you next week.


I think his week (been 13 days) is up.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

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