Neutrino
Neutrino
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September 2nd, 2017 at 6:09:18 PM permalink
Anyway in regards to a company, Most companies have name tags or IDs, especially ones in customer service. But then again you're getting paid to do what someone asks you to do.

But in a company setting, the police can't just threaten you with "obstruction of justice" When the "justice" you're obstructing is company policy not the law right?

But that's what they did to my sister and her classmates at school.
Mission146
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September 2nd, 2017 at 6:15:24 PM permalink
Quote: Neutrino



1: The cost of a replacement ID. IDs get lost by irresponsible kids all the time and the school probably knows this and uses this opportunity for a juicy "fundraiser". No prointrainning, they are not bulletproof.



Deterrent. Replace them at cost (close to nothing) and people will lose/forget them all the time because the replacement cost is no longer a meaningful deterrent. You could use Suspensions as a deterrent, but that would be Draconian, does not promote the educational environment (should be there to learn) and some kids might actually want a Suspension.

Besides, every single ID that needs replaced is a disruption to the academic process. The students take time out of class, the teachers have to deal with sending the kids for replacements, which cuts into class time AND it takes Administration time to actually replace each individual ID.

Also, if the teachers get sick of having to send everyone to get replacements, then eventually the teachers will become lax in enforcing the policy. They probably will, anyway, in the individual classroom, as they get to recognize their students by face.

In order to promote the use and enforcement of ID in common areas, the cost of replacement must serve as a sufficient deterrent. If you wish to protest the cost, say to make it $5, that would be best done via petition...which could also include parental signatures.

Quote:

2: They are quite angry at the school board taken "reactive" and "superficial/punitive" actions towards current events. We can't just allow policies that are meant to make us "feel better" if they don't actually contribute to the solution. This was actually brought to attention by a psychology teacher to the students and the principal isn't very happy with him. Rumor has it he may get fired for encouraging student disorderly behavior.



I don't think he should be fired, I agree it stops nobody from being shot.

Even with that, you don't want unauthorized personages in the building as a matter of sensible policy. They could commit other acts that interfere with students, steal stuff or do any other number of things you wouldn't want happening. How about installing a small camera in the ladies room? Would the students enjoy that? Of course not! For that reason, you don't want to let any unauthorized people in. It's not just because of shootings.

Again, I would support a petition to change the official line on why they are doing it.

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He used to be my teacher in high school and I can say he's an intelligent man. And I completely agree with him, when something happens in the news, companies tend to instill policies that are meant to look like they're doing something. His argument is, if you can do something about it by all means do. If you can't then don't waste money by trying to look like you're doing something for publicity sakes.



Agreed, but irrelevant. There are other good reasons for the policy, and it would be better for those to be the stated reasons.

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3: The massive hassle associated with accidentally forgetting one's ID and being constantly asked to present ID when it's not visible for what ever reason, including falling off its lanyard due to wear and tear. (some high-quality plastic that is...)



Petition for better quality ID's and lanyards, or alternative means of sporting them. I would support that, especially if they are to cost $10 each. With ours, you could have a lanyard or a little metal clip, the clips were pretty reliable. If your clip or lanyard broke (but nothing happened to the ID) they would replace those for free.

Also, you could technically just carry it in your hand everywhere, like an officer showing a badge. That would be a pain for obvious reasons, though.

Quote:

4: The replacement ID costs are not paid upfront. That means, they don't ask you for $10 cash and if you can't pay you don't get a replacement ID. Instead, they charge it to your school account for you to pay later, like a credit card, and then at the end of quarter parents get a bill for it. We all know credit cards encourage reckless spending, and this led to some large bills for some parents, which led to many angry parents.



Boo-Hoo for the parents, tell them to teach their kids some responsibility for their possessions. Also, have the parents teach the kids responsible financial habits...that would have REALLY helped me my first thirteen years of adulthood.

Besides that, they can home school if they really want to.

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5: A general feeling of violation of privacy, a Police-stateness, and big-brotherness caused by the IDs.



Um....

No, I'm not touching it. I mean, I'm Liberal myself, but I can't do this.
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Mission146
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Mission146
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September 2nd, 2017 at 6:18:17 PM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

Anyway in regards to a company, Most companies have name tags or IDs, especially ones in customer service. But then again you're getting paid to do what someone asks you to do.



School pays. The job prospects for people are greatly enhanced with at least a High School Diploma or GED compared to neither of the above. Besides, the person could just try to convince parents not to send them to a physical school. If old enough, the person in question may withdraw himself/herself from school.

Quote:

But in a company setting, the police can't just threaten you with "obstruction of justice" When the "justice" you're obstructing is company policy not the law right?

But that's what they did to my sister and her classmates at school.



You are right on this one, which is why I got into trespass laws. A company would probably order you to leave (i.e. termination) if you refused to wear your ID, if you refused to leave, then they would call law enforcement to charge you with defiant trespass. Maybe even disturbing the peace, too, depends on the context.
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Neutrino
Neutrino
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September 2nd, 2017 at 6:26:30 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146





Um....

No, I'm not touching it. I mean, I'm Liberal myself, but I can't do this.



I lean conservative and the conservative parents are angry at this as well. See my state is generally conservative (30% margin of victory for trump) and we have enough probably majority support among the parents for a pro-gun route to solve the "active shooter" problem. Many parent committees voiced that the only effective way to stop a school shooter is to have the school securities pack heat. Despite most likely having the majority of the community supporting this policy, the anti-gun school board implemented the ID policy instead and left many conservatives feeling like we got cheated out of a real solution and given a "fake" solution that is only meant to look like the board is trying to do something about it.
Neutrino
Neutrino
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September 2nd, 2017 at 6:34:33 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146



In order to promote the use and enforcement of ID in common areas, the cost of replacement must serve as a sufficient deterrent.



Boo-Hoo for the parents, tell them to teach their kids some responsibility for their possessions. Also, have the parents teach the kids responsible financial habits...that would have REALLY helped me my first thirteen years of adulthood.



That is indeed one way to see the cost issue, but another way to see it is, this is an extra cost that just spurred out of nowhere. We didn't have this cost a year ago and nobody got shot back then.

I do understand the point of other benefits to ID though.
Mission146
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September 2nd, 2017 at 6:46:06 PM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

I lean conservative and the conservative parents are angry at this as well. See my state is generally conservative (30% margin of victory for trump) and we have enough probably majority support among the parents for a pro-gun route to solve the "active shooter" problem. Many parent committees voiced that the only effective way to stop a school shooter is to have the school securities pack heat. Despite most likely having the majority of the community supporting this policy, the anti-gun school board implemented the ID policy instead and left many conservatives feeling like we got cheated out of a real solution and given a "fake" solution that is only meant to look like the board is trying to do something about it.



Well, all this, "Big Brother," is some Alt-Left sounding bull crap in my personal opinion. Now, the reasons you stated above don't read like, "Big Brother," so that makes a little more sense.

Anyway, the answer is to vote out the school board next time the election rolls around. Protesting at the school and disrupting academics will do exactly zero to get the School Board out of office. Have the kids get out there come election time and go door to door in support of these views. That would be a great Civics/Government exercise, anyway. I'd offer extra credit were I a teacher.

Even with that, though, the Board should then change its official line. The fact is that there are many good, sane, legitimate, reasonable and intelligent reasons to have an ID policy in place at schools. Again, I'm surprised the school hasn't had such a policy for over a decade.

I agree that ID's do not stop bullets. I don't know what to do about school shootings. I think officers of the law should be allowed to pack who are SEO's, I am neutral on whether or not teachers should be allowed to pack...my main concern is how well would the teacher be trained on preventing himself or herself from being disarmed? With a crap ton of training, maybe.
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Mission146
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Mission146
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September 2nd, 2017 at 6:47:36 PM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

That is indeed one way to see the cost issue, but another way to see it is, this is an extra cost that just spurred out of nowhere. We didn't have this cost a year ago and nobody got shot back then.

I do understand the point of other benefits to ID though.



Yes, we agree on the other benefits. I agree they do not stop bullets.

The cost of replacement does need to serve as its own deterrent, though.
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boymimbo
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September 2nd, 2017 at 7:07:14 PM permalink
I don't see any practical use of school IDs for students. Students will lose them. And it doesn't stop a student from coming in with a weapon. It's like putting up gates to a community - plenty of ways to get around it and it gives one a false sense of security. ID cards are the same. Every school should only have one unlocked door during school hours and a vigilant visitors policy where parents / visitors must report and sign in to an office, preferably at a front door. If staff want to wear ID cards or name tags during the first week, I think it makes sense so that students can identify staff.

This is really a gun control issue or a gun advocacy issue depending on what side you're on. In my view, people with any sort of mental health history should not be able to have a gun. But frankly, it's gotten so out of hand where gun ownership of any type is such a right where the only choice is to "defend yourself".

That means guns in schools. It's a solution I don't want to support, but frankly, if the school is staffed by an law officer or an SEO, s/he might as well should be trained to carry and be prepared to use to defend the school. And if the staff is comfortable and people feel that the school is susceptable, a couple of extra weapons stored under lock and key (or safe) in a staff or principal's office might be ok too.

Of course, when a lawfully owned gun is used by an SEO and an innocent dies, it will be an "accident" and it will be seen that having guns in schools and dealing with a sum of accidents is better than preventing a mass shooting at a school.
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Ibeatyouraces
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Thanks for this post from:
Mission146
September 2nd, 2017 at 7:12:58 PM permalink
School ID's are for proof you belong there and to prevent unwanted people from entering. Nothing more. No different than a military ID to get on a base.
Mission146
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September 2nd, 2017 at 8:30:35 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I don't see any practical use of school IDs for students. Students will lose them. And it doesn't stop a student from coming in with a weapon. It's like putting up gates to a community - plenty of ways to get around it and it gives one a false sense of security. ID cards are the same. Every school should only have one unlocked door during school hours and a vigilant visitors policy where parents / visitors must report and sign in to an office, preferably at a front door. If staff want to wear ID cards or name tags during the first week, I think it makes sense so that students can identify staff.



What IBYA said. I agree they don't prevent weapons from entering.

Has nobody ever worked anywhere in which you must have an ID with you (technically) to be in the building? I've had three different jobs at non-customer facing locations that still required an ID to be there.
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