Neutrino
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September 2nd, 2017 at 5:14:00 PM permalink
Quote: RS

What happens if there's a kid at a school who does not belong to that school? If he can't show ID, would they ask him to leave? Or do they keep him there because he might be a student?

If they ask him to leave but he is a student there, then the school is in trouble for not being responsible for their student(s). If they require him to stay but he is not a student, they don't have any authority over him (I think)....would this not be kidnapping?


I don't see a problem with being required to show ID or else vacate the property. Although I'd amend it to being required to show ID if you're in a place where or when you're possibly not supposed to be -- walking around during class time, that type of thing.




Ok yes I understand how they can use the IDs to ask someone to leave the property but,

the main reason they said they implemented IDs is to save lives in cases of "mass school shooting"

I'd imagine the shooter would politely say "Yes sir, I will leave your property now"

No seriously how the hell does ID help stop mass shooting... what kind of logic is this
Neutrino
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September 2nd, 2017 at 5:20:00 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

State laws vary, of course, when mentioned:

1.) At any school size, but especially for bigger schools, it stands to reason that not every staff member is going to recognize every student (or employee) as someone who should be there, hence ID's.



I think this is exactly it. The population of our town is not too big but just recently I guess they decided that either our schools has grown to a size where staff can't recognize anymore or the shooting problem has become too frequent.
Mission146
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September 2nd, 2017 at 5:22:52 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

In regards to point #7, if a child is supposed to be in school, I don't think the staff can just order them to leave. Schools must have some responsibility for kids in their care. Suppose the kid goes out and gets hit by a car when he is supposed to be in school. Parents put their faith in a school system that picks up their kids and drops them off.
Not a teacher, nor have I been the parent of a student for many years but I think there must be some responsibility.
Send them to detention, or an in school suspension, not just let them go wander wherever.



I imagine any specific laws regarding that likely vary both by state and age. Since I know neither in this specific case, I'm afraid I cannot further comment as to this line of discussion. I think it would also matter (potentially) that the students were, in fact, recognized as students. If even the principal didn't recognize them, then what? As RS mentioned, can you force people who might not actually be students to stay there?

I think that another question is whether or not the students drove themselves to school or rode with another student. If the student did not use the school's transportation system in, then the student does not need the school's transportation system out. I remember High School and if you drove and had a parent's note, say you had a doctor's appointment or something, obviously your parent did not have to physically appear in order to leave. When eighteen, you simply told the school you had an appointment and left when the time came. Technically, there might be disciplinary for an unauthorized departure, but I think you could technically leave anytime you wanted when eighteen.

Again, it might be different because it seems that the principal (or someone else) acknowledged recognizing the students. The ones who drove can go right back home, though.
Vultures can't be choosers.
ProInTrainning
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September 2nd, 2017 at 5:34:43 PM permalink
They must be bulletproof IDs, I mean, after all they're sold at $10 each and that's the only possible justification for the price
billryan
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September 2nd, 2017 at 5:37:49 PM permalink
Quote: ProInTrainning

They must be bulletproof IDs, I mean, after all they're sold at $10 each and that's the only possible justification for the price



Hofstra charged many times that for a replacement id and that was thirty five years ago.
If there is a shooting, the card will quickly id you if you get shot in the head, and allow first responders to identify everyone.
What kind of id do minors carry these days?
It's what you do and not what you say If you're not part of the future then get out of the way
Mission146
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Thanks for this post from:
SOOPOO
September 2nd, 2017 at 5:42:07 PM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

I think this is exactly it. The population of our town is not too big but just recently I guess they decided that either our schools has grown to a size where staff can't recognize anymore or the shooting problem has become too frequent.



ID's alone are not going to stop shooters, I think we can all agree on that. Schools really should drop the line that ID's alone are going to stop shooters in and of themselves. What they do accomplish is the ability to easily recognize someone (who lacks an ID) as potentially someone who shouldn't be there. Someone who perhaps should not be there can be reported to staff, the SEO or other appropriate staff member(s) can then go investigate that person.

I will also stipulate that there have been a few other things implemented when I was in school that were not preventive.

1.) Metal detectors...at the front door.

-It doesn't take someone a lot of casing to know the front door can be avoided by parking in the student or teacher parking lot. Granted, you would have to know to enter prior to first bell, (or the front door was your only option, unless someone outbound held a door for you) but that's really not hard. Besides, it would make the most sense for a shooter who wants to inflict the most damage to go when the students are congregated pretty tightly, which is before they are all in their individual classrooms.

I hope that has been fixed.

2.) Identification of those who wish to enter.

-This is a good one, but it's not perfect. At my kids' Elementary School, the office is in front and is the only thing a person can access immediately upon being admitted into the building. The doors to the hallways (second set after the front doors) will not work. If you are supposed to be there (parent participation thing) they need to already have your name and where you are going, which you then need to verify. If it's an early pick-up, they send the student to you.

-I think that works very well, except for a few things:

A.) I wish they had a metal detector.

B.) I wish they required ID even from people who are, "Supposed," to be there or, "Supposed," to pick the kids up.

Your Sister

Haha, "Your sister," is the sort of thing I'd have said in school. But, seriously:

I respectfully disagree with her protest and consider it a protest against a very reasonable requirement that exists for the clear and present reason of identifying individuals who are or are not supposed to be in the building or on the property. That's why the food delivery people, among others, have to have visitor's badges at many schools.

I think that the idea of such a protest is borderline uncalled for. As discussed, there is a clear and present reason for the policy. Beyond that, how can the students claim that they are being unjustly put upon by having to adhere to a requirement that the school has when their very attendance is technically optional? I would say for some of them, but not necessarily all of them or your sister specifically, this was just to get themselves talked about.

If they want to change the official line as the reason for the policy, then they should endeavor to do that. I would sign a petition to that effect, ID's don't directly prevent anyone from shooting anything.

Also, I think the protest is sanctimonious. If any of these students have part-time jobs, or are interested in getting one, I'm sure they wouldn't pitch too much of a fit if the company hiring them required picture ID's to be worn while on property. Would someone who wants paid take such a stand against conditions of employment? Maybe a few, but I suspect most of those twenty would be or are okay with that.

Ultimately, it's an unnecessary stand against a policy that makes sense to have. Further, a policy to which they do not have to necessarily be subject if they can compel their parents to home school them. Alternatively, if at an age allowed by the state, they can withdraw themselves from school.
Vultures can't be choosers.
ProInTrainning
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September 2nd, 2017 at 5:42:08 PM permalink
How much did they charge? Were they gold plated IDs?
Mission146
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September 2nd, 2017 at 5:44:33 PM permalink
Quote: ProInTrainning

They must be bulletproof IDs, I mean, after all they're sold at $10 each and that's the only possible justification for the price



It's not profit-incentive. The ID's have to cost a meaningful amount to serve as a deterrent to losing or forgetting them. Replace them for a quarter, and you'll be replacing them for 5-10% of the student body on a daily basis.

ADDED: The Hofstra ID's would have been far more expensive to make thirty-five years ago, especially if at the quality of today's ID's. Not like you could just zip a loaded image through a printer and laminate it.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Mission146
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September 2nd, 2017 at 5:50:07 PM permalink
By the way, pleasure to meet you, Neutrino's sister. Please forgive me for not addressing you directly, but it just clicked. What are you training to become a pro at?
Vultures can't be choosers.
Neutrino
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September 2nd, 2017 at 6:02:09 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146


My Sister



I've talked to her since the incident quite a bit about it and I happen to know why the student body is angry at the policy, it's quite righteous in my opinion.

1: The cost of a replacement ID. IDs get lost by irresponsible kids all the time and the school probably knows this and uses this opportunity for a juicy "fundraiser". No prointrainning, they are not bulletproof.

2: They are quite angry at the school board taken "reactive" and "superficial/punitive" actions towards current events. We can't just allow policies that are meant to make us "feel better" if they don't actually contribute to the solution. This was actually brought to attention by a psychology teacher to the students and the principal isn't very happy with him. Rumor has it he may get fired for encouraging student disorderly behavior.

He used to be my teacher in high school and I can say he's an intelligent man. And I completely agree with him, when something happens in the news, companies tend to instill policies that are meant to look like they're doing something. His argument is, if you can do something about it by all means do. If you can't then don't waste money by trying to look like you're doing something for publicity sakes.

3: The massive hassle associated with accidentally forgetting one's ID and being constantly asked to present ID when it's not visible for what ever reason, including falling off its lanyard due to wear and tear. (some high-quality plastic that is...)

4: The replacement ID costs are not paid upfront. That means, they don't ask you for $10 cash and if you can't pay you don't get a replacement ID. Instead, they charge it to your school account for you to pay later, like a credit card, and then at the end of quarter parents get a bill for it. We all know credit cards encourage reckless spending, and this led to some large bills for some parents, which led to many angry parents.

5: A general feeling of violation of privacy, a Police-stateness, and big-brotherness caused by the IDs.

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