texasplumr
texasplumr
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 343
Joined: Mar 6, 2011
January 27th, 2015 at 8:33:43 AM permalink
In light of the recent thread on the non payment of a bet I have seen both words used.
Is the correct term Welsh or Welch? Or, maybe they're both OK?

Inquiring minds and all that.

Thanks
Stupid is a choice
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9557
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
January 27th, 2015 at 8:38:46 AM permalink
either-or
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
January 27th, 2015 at 9:27:46 AM permalink
Welch.

FYI: Welsh is a person from Wales.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
bigfoot66
bigfoot66
  • Threads: 54
  • Posts: 1582
Joined: Feb 5, 2010
January 27th, 2015 at 9:32:57 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Welch.

FYI: Welsh is a person from Wales.



Isn't that the origin of the term?
Vote for Nobody 2020!
aceofspades
aceofspades
  • Threads: 366
  • Posts: 6506
Joined: Apr 4, 2012
January 27th, 2015 at 9:42:01 AM permalink
Venthus
Venthus
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 1125
Joined: Dec 10, 2012
January 27th, 2015 at 10:26:56 AM permalink
Courtesy of Etymonline...

welch (v.) 1857, racing slang, "to refuse or avoid payment of money laid as a bet," probably a disparaging use of the national name Welsh.

Huh. So both, sort of.
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
  • Threads: 67
  • Posts: 4300
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
January 27th, 2015 at 10:46:09 AM permalink
Quote: Venthus

Courtesy of Etymonline...

welch (v.) 1857, racing slang, "to refuse or avoid payment of money laid as a bet," probably a disparaging use of the national name Welsh.

Huh. So both, sort of.


Yeah, last time I looked this up, it had origins as a derisive term for Welsh people as apparently at one point in time they were known to be dishonest with respect to paying debts.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
January 27th, 2015 at 5:21:24 PM permalink
Yeah, we had the conversation around LemmieGate last year. I think we ended up deciding that it was formerly derisive of Welsh people no matter the spelling, no consensus on whether it was currently offensive, no consensus on spelling. I personally favor "Welching" for the spelling, as it seems less derivative of the Welsh people, but that's JMHO.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
January 27th, 2015 at 5:35:50 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Yeah, we had the conversation around LemmieGate last year. I think we ended up deciding that it was formerly derisive of Welsh people no matter the spelling, no consensus on whether it was currently offensive, no consensus on spelling. I personally favor "Welching" for the spelling, as it seems less derivative of the Welsh people, but that's JMHO.



It seems like using french to talk about a cut of vegetables, english to describe spin of a ball or scotch for killing of a rumour.

Possibly.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 2299
Joined: Jul 13, 2013
January 27th, 2015 at 5:42:53 PM permalink
I think the term originated with the English. The Welsh believed that if they didn't pay a debt in their lifetime they would pay it in their next life or the one after that.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
January 27th, 2015 at 5:51:36 PM permalink
I think using the term "welsh" is analogous to "jew someone". We just happen to know more Jewish people than welsh people. We are also more aware of the horrors the Jewish people have been put through. Both these things make "jewing" seem like a more derogatory term than "welshing".
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 2145
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
January 27th, 2015 at 5:55:19 PM permalink
Oh and don't forget gyp or jiip.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
  • Threads: 212
  • Posts: 8277
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
January 27th, 2015 at 9:57:00 PM permalink
I go with Welsh because it's in my phone. Plus I don't care if I offend the Welsh because I'm a Welshist.
I am a robot.
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 28576
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
January 28th, 2015 at 12:48:31 AM permalink
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
January 28th, 2015 at 4:32:21 AM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

I think using the term "welsh" is analogous to "jew someone". We just happen to know more Jewish people than welsh people. We are also more aware of the horrors the Jewish people have been put through. Both these things make "jewing" seem like a more derogatory term than "welshing".



You sum it up perfectly, rudeboyoi. Welch, no matter how you spell it, is a very offensive racial/ethnic slur. Even I know that and I don't work very hard on political correctness. Why it is continually used on this purportedly politically correct forum is beyond me. If that hateful slur is allowed here, shouldn't all slurs be allowed?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
djatc
djatc
  • Threads: 83
  • Posts: 4477
Joined: Jan 15, 2013
January 28th, 2015 at 10:42:11 AM permalink
I enjoy my checking account and Hollywood movies so I won't be saying anything bad about the Jewish people.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
January 28th, 2015 at 11:09:16 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

You sum it up perfectly, rudeboyoi. Welch, no matter how you spell it, is a very offensive racial/ethnic slur. Even I know that and I don't work very hard on political correctness. Why it is continually used on this purportedly politically correct forum is beyond me. If that hateful slur is allowed here, shouldn't all slurs be allowed?



I have never heard any Welshman complain that it is a hateful slur on them. I'll ask them next time I see one. Most likely as it's not a phrase used much in the UK.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
January 28th, 2015 at 11:48:23 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I have never heard any Welshman complain that it is a hateful slur on them. I'll ask them next time I see one. Most likely as it's not a phrase used much in the UK.



That goes for most nationalities. Most people just take it in stride as I do but some are truly offended.

Can we get an official WOV ruling and can we get the reasoning behind it? Is Welsh and or Welch, used in this context, a slur? How about you, secret administrator? What do you think?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
January 28th, 2015 at 2:04:44 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

That goes for most nationalities. Most people just take it in stride as I do but some are truly offended.

Can we get an official WOV ruling and can we get the reasoning behind it? Is Welsh and or Welch, used in this context, a slur? How about you, secret administrator? What do you think?



Turning to the dictionary, I find that either, "Welsh," or the more commonly used, "Welch," has taken the proper meaning of failing to pay, and particularly on a bet. The only way I would suggest that it would constitute a slur, in this context, is if you were using it to refer to something that the person did not actually do.

I did see, "Jew," or, "Jewing," mentioned earlier in the thread and, "Failing to pay," is not an acceptable definition of, "Jewing," someone. The term, "Jew," can properly mean, "To bargain with sharply," which does not infer non-payment at all, and is thus a slur used in that sense.

Thus, if we wish to get as technical as possible, when referring to straight up non-payment, Welching would not constitute a slur and Jewing would. Either could, however, if they were being used specifically and intentionally for no purpose other than to offend parties representing either of the two groups.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
January 28th, 2015 at 2:14:16 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

That goes for most nationalities. Most people just take it in stride as I do but some are truly offended.

Can we get an official WOV ruling and can we get the reasoning behind it? Is Welsh and or Welch, used in this context, a slur? How about you, secret administrator? What do you think?



If a Welshman takes offence at it, maybe it's a slur. Until that time, and I'll wager I know a lot more Welsh folks than you, I'll defer this silliness to those that have the time.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
January 28th, 2015 at 3:31:59 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

If a Welshman takes offence at it, maybe it's a slur. Until that time, and I'll wager I know a lot more Welsh folks than you, I'll defer this silliness to those that have the time.



I have no idea how many Welshmen you know or how many one must know to be deemed an expert. I'm not convinced by your or Mission's take on it so how about we agree to disagree? I will not use the term and leave it to others to make the decision that is best for them.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Perdition
Perdition
  • Threads: 36
  • Posts: 610
Joined: Sep 3, 2013
January 28th, 2015 at 3:39:07 PM permalink
Welsh Alf is not amused.

Face
Administrator
Face
  • Threads: 49
  • Posts: 4448
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
January 28th, 2015 at 4:49:12 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB


Can we get an official WOV ruling and can we get the reasoning behind it? Is Welsh and or Welch, used in this context, a slur? How about you, secret administrator? What do you think?



I won't presume to be the "official voice", but my opinion...

Much like "gyp", I had no idea it was a racial / cultural slur until, of course, it was brought up here a year or so ago. And even after that, I can't say I understand it. I don't get what breaking your word has to do with the people of Wales. No idea whatsoever.

That being said, since it is a confirmed slur, care should be exercised. I wouldn't go so far to start swinging the ban hammer out of hand, but we should generally attempt to avoid offense if possible. Use of "welsh" will surely happen again. If a Welshman, Englishman, just a man, or a body described with the suffix of -man, including but not limited to a wo-man, should take offense to it, an advisement should be issued to the offending party. Should an offender choose to disregard said warning, then there is plenty of elasticity built into the rules to deal with said breach, without having to codify each and every slur and slight, real or perceived.

Call it the Redskin Rule. An effort to not offend with an equal effort to not be offended, with Green action only for extreme examples, on a case by case basis.

What say you?
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
  • Threads: 67
  • Posts: 4300
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
January 28th, 2015 at 4:52:48 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

I have no idea how many Welshmen you know or how many one must know to be deemed an expert. I'm not convinced by your or Mission's take on it so how about we agree to disagree? I will not use the term and leave it to others to make the decision that is best for them.


Are you actually offended by this term, or are you just using this as an example of how the rules aren't specified down to the Nth degree on this board?
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
January 28th, 2015 at 5:23:21 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Are you actually offended by this term, or are you just using this as an example of how the rules aren't specified down to the Nth degree on this board?



I'm not offended nor am I offended by jokes about my heritage. That doesn't mean I'm comfortable with it. We all have them however not all jokes are slurs. I know that the use here was innocent in that no slur or insult was intended but we've all heard the saying about ignorance of the law. It's offensive no matter how many people use it and no matter how accepted it is.

You had to mention forum rules didn't you? :-) It's been a couple of days since I've been insulted and I'd like to keep that going so I'll refrain from commenting on the rules.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
  • Threads: 212
  • Posts: 8277
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
January 28th, 2015 at 5:47:10 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

I'm not offended nor am I offended by jokes about my heritage. That doesn't mean I'm comfortable with it. We all have them however not all jokes are slurs. I know that the use here was innocent in that no slur or insult was intended but we've all heard the saying about ignorance of the law. It's offensive no matter how many people use it and no matter how accepted it is.

You had to mention forum rules didn't you? :-) It's been a couple of days since I've been insulted and I'd like to keep that going so I'll refrain from commenting on the rules.

I'm part welsh somewhere i think and wouldn't care. probably long ago a man said he was sterile, knocked up great great etc. grandma and welshed on supporting the baby.
I am a robot.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
January 28th, 2015 at 6:05:56 PM permalink
The Wales is weak.
BoulderDamIt
BoulderDamIt
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 156
Joined: Jan 15, 2015
January 28th, 2015 at 6:28:59 PM permalink
Where does the board stand on "Limey"? Can I start throwing that around? :D
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
January 28th, 2015 at 7:19:22 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

The Wales is weak.

Wales is game to you?!?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
January 28th, 2015 at 7:51:40 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

Wales is game to you?!?



Hehe. You got it.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22272
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
January 28th, 2015 at 7:55:51 PM permalink
Don't know don't care if its a racial slur, I don't use it as one. My friend who comes from a jewish family. After I used the phrase.."I got Jewed" he said, "you do know thats offensive to jewish people right?"(he wasn't personally offended,he just wanted me to know) I then told him the jewish pervert joke.... "You want to BUY some candy little girl?"
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
  • Threads: 212
  • Posts: 8277
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
January 28th, 2015 at 9:03:42 PM permalink
Mork from Ork was a bigot once. Then he learned better and turned his klan friends into women and minorities. True story.
I am a robot.
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
January 28th, 2015 at 10:38:30 PM permalink
Quote: BoulderDamIt

Where does the board stand on "Limey"? Can I start throwing that around? :D




As long as I can call Americans 'Septics', please go right ahead. :D
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
January 29th, 2015 at 3:39:31 AM permalink
Quote: BoulderDamIt

Where does the board stand on "Limey"? Can I start throwing that around? :D



Ha ha. I've been called slimy on this very forum so why not? Maybe my insulter thought I was British and forgot the s?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
  • Jump to: