skill based slots?
http://casinoconnectionac.com/issue/vol-11-no-11-november-2014/article/new-jersey-to-accept-skill-based-games
My question is if this can work, will the casinos truly accept it?
Technically, they already have a skill based game in casinos. It's called Blackjack.
If anyone who spends every part of his day to train and become so skillful he can make a profit, then will the casinos start hunting them down and identifying them as skilled players?
Traditionally, casinos don't like skilled players, identifying them to exclude them. So can you have skilled based games and not have skilled players?
Quote: RSJust because it's skill based doesn't mean it's beatable.
Yep. For example, pays back 92% if you play optimally, less if you don't, I think the casinos might jump all over that.
Quote: MoscaYep. For example, pays back 92% if you play optimally, less if you don't, I think the casinos might jump all over that.
Exactly, it's hard to tell what exactly is in the works as, "Skill-based," is a pretty ambiguous term.
I could see two general ways something like this could go (and there are probably more), for instance, if you take something like Scrabble or Words with Friends, there could be some feature where how much the pays are is based on how many points you score in making a specific word. Obviously, there is going to be an Optimum word you can make, with respect to points, and there are going to be less than Optimum words...but that doesn't control what letters the player would get. If you get, ieouauk, there's not much you can do with that.
You could also have some kind of PvP skill game, but so is Poker, and the house makes its money simply off of taking a rake there. In a game such as that, the House doesn't really have a reason to care if someone kicks the crap out of everyone else.
In some Vegas casinos there is a Texas Holdem machine that is entirely skill based. There is no rake, they are willing to rely on the superior play of the AI vs. human players. I played one at the Aria about a year ago in the area where the dollar VP machines are located. It is hyper-aggressive and I got owned rapidly. I put in $100 and won a couple big hands off the bat, running it up to $400, then was down to $0 in just a few more hands. I have read a few accounts of players that claim they can beat it but given that competitive software for heads-up LHE has been around for a while, I doubt that many people can.
It is so good I am not sure how popular it is since most players will get smoked in a hurry. Only the highest-level human LHE players are nearly as aggressive as the machine. I have seen people playing it at the Venetian where a few of them are outside the poker room, or at least they were a year ago.
Quote: jml24There is video poker in AC right? If it was a slot that allowed suboptimal play it wouldn't be any different from VP.
In some Vegas casinos there is a Texas Holdem machine that is entirely skill based. There is no rake, they are willing to rely on the superior play of the AI vs. human players. I played one at the Aria about a year ago in the area where the dollar VP machines are located. It is hyper-aggressive and I got owned rapidly. I put in $100 and won a couple big hands off the bat, running it up to $400, then was down to $0 in just a few more hands. I have read a few accounts of players that claim they can beat it but given that competitive software for heads-up LHE has been around for a while, I doubt that many people can.
It is so good I am not sure how popular it is since most players will get smoked in a hurry. Only the highest-level human LHE players are nearly as aggressive as the machine. I have seen people playing it at the Venetian where a few of them are outside the poker room, or at least they were a year ago.
http://www.lvrevealed.com/articles/research/investigating-texas-holdem-heads-up-poker.html
After they fixed the bugsQuote: jml24There is video poker in AC right? If it was a slot that allowed suboptimal play it wouldn't be any different from VP.
In some Vegas casinos there is a Texas Holdem machine that is entirely skill based. There is no rake, they are willing to rely on the superior play of the AI vs. human players. I played one at the Aria about a year ago in the area where the dollar VP machines are located. It is hyper-aggressive and I got owned rapidly. I put in $100 and won a couple big hands off the bat, running it up to $400, then was down to $0 in just a few more hands. I have read a few accounts of players that claim they can beat it but given that competitive software for heads-up LHE has been around for a while, I doubt that many people can.
It is so good I am not sure how popular it is since most players will get smoked in a hurry. Only the highest-level human LHE players are nearly as aggressive as the machine. I have seen people playing it at the Venetian where a few of them are outside the poker room, or at least they were a year ago.
I played off and on (not many hours), i'm up $460 total, I was up $1600 at my high.
I'm willing to bet no well known poker player can beat it playing it for 500 hrs.
Not counting slot card promotions.
Quote: AxelWolfAfter they fixed the bugs
I played off and on (not many hours), i'm up $460 total, I was up $1600 at my high.
I'm willing to bet no well known poker player can beat it playing it for 500 hrs.
Not counting slot card promotions.
I agree with you. You really need to be a heads up limit holdem specialist to have a decent shot beating it longterm. In my 30 minutes lifetime, I'm down about 160 on it...grrr
Quote: tringlomaneI agree with you. You really need to be a heads up limit holdem specialist to have a decent shot beating it longterm. In my 30 minutes lifetime, I'm down about 160 on it...grrr
Every time I play It,I seem to obviously out pay it. It always seems to have a significantly better hands than I do.
For instance will oftentimes be in a re-raising war until the river.
My last hand
I have AA
flop 7 2 4 rainbow
k turn
Q river.
AI is holding Q K
Quote: AxelWolfEvery time I play It,I seem to obviously out pay it. It always seems to have a significantly better hands than I do.
For instance will oftentimes be in a re-raising war until the river.
My last hand
I have AA
flop 7 2 4 rainbow
k turn
Q river.
AI is holding Q K
I wouldn't trust that bull**** for five seconds. That sounds just like this video game I had that plugged directly into the TV several years ago, I think it had Daniel Negreanu on it, anyway, the game claimed to be able to, "Adapt," or whatever, and to gradually play you tougher to make you a better player.
The only thing it gradually did was **** *** ** *** *** constantly! It was a No-Limit game and I can't remember if it was tournaments or just open tables, I think you had to advance through a bunch of different tables. Anyway, you'd go all-in pre-flop with KK, this thing would call you with 8-2, 7-2, 8-3 or some crap like that, and inevitably, it'd end up with Trips against your Aces, or Two Pair against your Aces...and there was NO REASON TO CALL!!! The computer had nothing at stake except the blinds.
This happened with me going all-in with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 1010, AK(s) or KQ(s) seven consecutive times, and it was always when you would reach a certain level of the game. Needless to say, that game went straight in the trash, I might be a decent poker player...but I can't compete against clairvoyance.
Quote: Mission146I can't compete against clairvoyance
Why do you think Negreanu is so good? [g]
Quote: pewCasino Donkey Kong!
I know its an unrealistic expectation. But I was actually thinking about that too when I read the thread. It would be awesome if casinos could feature arcade games where players either face off or in games like DK challenge for the highest score. Players can agree to wager a set amount (deposited in account) and then the casinos credit it to the winner, and profit from either making a rake and/or charging a play fee like arcades have. Maybe a way for players to wager tier points as well as money to make it interesting.
Quote: pewWhat better way to start the little darlings off on a degenerate gambling habit. Ms. PacMan $25 min.
Already taken care of - what else do you call Skee-Ball, or any of those arcade "redemption" games that reward skill with tickets? And don't tell me that it's impossible for a kid to find someone on the school playground who is willing to buy the tickets (because he's trying to collect for some megaprize and it's cheaper in the long run to buy the tickets). Besides, what are bingo pinballs if not at least partially "skill based", and you don't see those in casinos?
But Ms. Pac-Man is probably the best choice for such a game, if only to target the gamblers in their 40s and 50s who are convinced that they have a pattern to beat it. (Pac-Man levels have fixed paths through every maze that are guaranteed to work, but Ms. Pac-Man has some sort of randomizer in it that prevents there from being a single, guaranteed pattern. It may be possible to get to a point on each level where a particular strategy gets you through the round, but you have to get there first.)
Next up: Joust and Galaga. "Oh, did we mention that these are the revised versions of those games, where (a) you can't get an enemy bird in a "permanent grip" by the lava monster so you can spend all day standing on the middle ledge defeating pterodactyls (the main arcade in Berkeley in the 1980s had a warning: anyone caught doing this would be thrown out), and (b) you can't get to a point where the enemies stop shooting at you?"
Quote: ThatDonGuyNext up: Joust and Galaga. "Oh, did we mention that these are the revised versions of those games, where (a) you can't get an enemy bird in a "permanent grip" by the lava monster so you can spend all day standing on the middle ledge defeating pterodactyls (the main arcade in Berkeley in the 1980s had a warning: anyone caught doing this would be thrown out), and (b) you can't get to a point where the enemies stop shooting at you?"
LOL, so they were backing off and banning Joust players at Berkeley in the 80's.
http://dmckee.lvablog.com/?p=18415
Clearly someone just needs to explain to them that $100 denom slots are the way to go. LOL
I think there is going to be a push in the industry in the next 5-10 years to implement new concepts in machine gaming. They're putting all the ridiculous Shaq Jack stations in right now.
Quote: DRich"Part of the challenge facing Gamblit’s skill-based slots is the long replacement cycle that will preface its games’ adoption by the industry. Also, “Slot players wager once every five seconds, compared with every 20 to 60 seconds for some Gamblit games, which may prove less lucrative than traditional slots even if they attract new gamblers,”
http://dmckee.lvablog.com/?p=18415
Clearly someone just needs to explain to them that $100 denom slots are the way to go. LOL
How is that a challenge ? If the skilled based game is fixed time limit and the casino thinks its marginal cost is a traditional slot wagering every 5 secs then a 60 second game would just need to be 12 cents for penny, 60 cents for nickel, $1.20 for dimes, and $3 for quarters. Not that crazy of a notion.
Quote: DiscreteMaths2How is that a challenge ? If the skilled based game is fixed time limit and the casino thinks its marginal cost is a traditional slot wagering every 5 secs then a 60 second game would just need to be 12 cents for penny, 60 cents for nickel, $1.20 for dimes, and $3 for quarters. Not that crazy of a notion.
The average penny player plays $1.50 per spin so by that logic the same player would pay $18 a game. That would make trying new games very expensive especially skill games because it is assumed you will not be playing with a lot of skill in the beginning so you will be losing more than average.
Counting cards or using progressive winning to your advantage will eventually catch the attention of the casino.
I don't think casinos will ever take away skill games like blackjack. They are not based purely on skill after all.
I don't know how online casinos are tackling this issue, whether they are banning players or not
Quote: gamerfreakCasinos will accept them, but skill based doesn't mean a beatable house edge.
I think there is going to be a push in the industry in the next 5-10 years to implement new concepts in machine gaming. They're putting all the ridiculous Shaq Jack stations in right now.
The only installs I could find are Parx and in AC. Are there others? I saw a baccarat station similar to it which, in some ways, is even better.
Quote: DRichThe average penny player plays $1.50 per spin so by that logic the same player would pay $18 a game. That would make trying new games very expensive especially skill games because it is assumed you will not be playing with a lot of skill in the beginning so you will be losing more than average.
At least at the places I frequent, machines are never full. There aren't enough average players to fill up all the machines. A dormant machine isn't earning anyone money. I find it hard to believe that most casinos would be losing money putting a few of these new machines in. But yeah, its hard to beat a format where people are willing to put in large sums of money and have the game be over in an instant.
edit: actually rereading my original post I made it sound like I was saying you could unconditionally replace any given traditional slot machine with a skilled one for the same results, thats not the case.
