Emergency help pai gow
Quote: strictlyAPIs ace high straight a 2345 always the second highest or do some places play it as the lowest
Some places play it as the lowest. Nationally, most places probably play it as the lowest. why is this an emergency?
To avoid disputes, many of the casino's a notice on the table signage that states "A-2-3-4-5 is the second highest straight"
Quote: strictlyAPIt was an emergency because I had an issue with a big hand and they refused to show me where in the rules it said that and it said it no where/ didn't want to make an ass if my self with gaming commission if this is always the second highest
What state? The rules are codified in PA and, I think, MD. So you could look up the uniform state rules pretty easily there. In other jurisdictions, it'd vary by casino. As Midwest AP says, it's usually pretty clearly posted when that's the second highest straight. It generally IS the second highest in NV and NJ, and is NOT in the midwest, gulf area, or CA.
Pai Gow Poker A2345 low straight
same room, Asia poker, A2345 2nd higest straight.
also this particular casino unlike EVERT other one in pa does not allow you to redraw to split aces in spanish 21
(Incidentally: First and only time I've seen hand-dealt pai gow poker. And I thought 'normal' PGP was slow enough...)
I don't buy that. PGP is not a draw game. You either have it, or you don't.Quote: VenthusThis came up in a discussion at Santa Ysabel (CA) recently, and they consider it second highest on the grounds that it's closed on one end, same as a royal, and thus harder to achieve.
Years ago, it was explained that, similarly to PG Tiles, when there are hands of the same rank, you look at the cards individually. Therefore, the wheel loses to Broadway, but it's ace beats a King high straight.
HOWEVER, if that's true, shouldn't AQ444 beat 73999, K6633 beat J8855, etc. ?
I saw it at Circus Circus. Actually played a few hands with PaiGowDan and a few other WoV members at G2E. Dan assured us that the weird shuffle / deal procedure was correct. I didn't ask why, but my guess is that it simulates the procedures for PG Tiles.Quote: Venthus(Incidentally: First and only time I've seen hand-dealt pai gow poker. And I thought 'normal' PGP was slow enough...)
Yeah, "Damn slow" is an understatement!
Quote: DJTeddyBearI don't buy that. PGP is not a draw game. You either have it, or you don't.
Years ago, it was explained that, similarly to PG Tiles, when there are hands of the same rank, you look at the cards individually. Therefore, the wheel loses to Broadway, but it's ace beats a King high straight.
HOWEVER, if that's true, shouldn't AQ444 beat 73999, K6633 beat J8855, etc. ?
Not entirely. A five-card straight has no kickers. The wheel straight is simply considered the "second-highest ace-high straight." Keep in mind that many accepted conventions are fundamentally irrational or are kludges (sloppy fixes or rules) that got adopted.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI saw it at Circus Circus. Actually played a few hands with PaiGowDan and a few other WoV members at G2E. Dan assured us that the weird shuffle / deal procedure was correct. I didn't ask why, but my guess is that it simulates the procedures for PG Tiles.
Yeah, "Damn slow" is an understatement!
I hand dealt Pai Gow Poker on rare occasions at Fiesta, when absolutely no shuffler was available. It was a one-off VERY rare situation. Slow and annoying. The dice-indicated "first position to receive a hand" remains in effect, and so selects the first manually-dealt packet (of the seven piles) to be dealt to the indicated player position. Hand-dealt Pai Gow Poker is sometimes done to favor or disfavor particular brands of the game that are concurrently offered at the same local casino house. (Fortune versus Emperor's Challenge Versus EZ Pai Gow versus Imperial Pai Gow kind of thing, where the TGD or shift manager has a particular reason or favorite.) If you see hand dealt PGP on a consistent basis, something is up.
Quote: VenthusThis place was so small (relative to what I'm used to) that I think it was a cost-saving measure.
I don't think they have auto shufflers at all, do they? They also hand-shuffle BJ, 3CP, and UTH, IIRC.
Quote: VenthusThis place was so small (relative to what I'm used to) that I think it was a cost-saving measure.
Maybe so. (That is one Broke-az card room.) But the hands-per-hour improvement would pay for it all. Talk about a wine-drinking game; $40 would last eons....$1 for the waitress....
Final PA Gaming Regulations
Quote: Page 720, Chapter 645, Rule 6: Pai Gow Poker Rankings
The permissible Poker hands at the game of Pai Gow Poker, in order of highest to lowest rank, shall be: ........
(7) A straight, which is a high hand consisting of five cards of consecutive rank, regardless of suit, with an ace, king, queen, jack and 10 being the highest ranking straight; an ace, 2, 3, 4 and 5 being the second highest ranking straight; and a 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 being the lowest ranking straight.
By the way, nothing in there about how the casino sets its hands -- that's up to the casino but it is must be submitted to the gaming commission according to 645a.11.c.
Quote: Page 727, Chapter 635, Section 11
(c) After a second card is dealt to a split pair hand, the player shall indicate his decision to stand, draw or double down with respect to that hand. A certificate holder shall specify in its Rules Submission under § 601a.2 (relating to table games Rules Submissions) the number of additional times a patron may split pairs, including aces.
A few minutes later, another pit lady strolled by so I asked her whether the 5-high was the second-highest straight in this casino. She said yes, second to the Royal straight, and explained it to the dealer. Apparently I benefited from both the dealer and the first pit person being mistaken. I was not asked to give the money back.
Quote: BlueEagleI played PGP in a North Las Vegas casino the other night. I had a wheel and the dealer had Broadway. My low hand won, so I expected the hand to be a push. However, the dealer stopped and called the pit man over. She asked him if a 5-high straight beat an Ace-high straight, and the pit said yes. I said no, the wheel is the second-highest straight and he replied that in this casino, the wheel is the highest. The dealer paid me for a win.
A few minutes later, another pit lady strolled by so I asked her whether the 5-high was the second-highest straight in this casino. She said yes, second to the Royal straight, and explained it to the dealer. Apparently I benefited from both the dealer and the first pit person being mistaken. I was not asked to give the money back.
BlueEagle,
Thanks for the info; interesting (and profitable) mistake. Welcome to the forum!
Please forgive me for asking, as there's another thread discussing whether machine shufflers can read the cards and give the dealer the best hand. Do you mean the casino is up to something and whether hand dealt or machine dealt is the safer to play. I thought the dice, assuming you weren't playing any bonus bet, meant it was [fairly] random who got the best hand.Quote: PaigowdanIf you see hand dealt PGP on a consistent basis, something is up.
Quote: charliepatrickPlease forgive me for asking, as there's another thread discussing whether machine shufflers can read the cards and give the dealer the best hand. Do you mean the casino is up to something and whether hand dealt or machine dealt is the safer to play. I thought the dice, assuming you weren't playing any bonus bet, meant it was [fairly] random who got the best hand.
On this, I was discussing operational mismanagement only: if the casino cannot track or plan for needed gaming equipment (and shufflers are needed for PGP and some poker carnival games), then a manager might not be doing his job well.
In all cases, the machines do not stack the cards during the random shuffling when in "dealing mode," although it may know where the cards are for verification. The cards are read as the machine shuffles, but the shuffle itself is in no way rigged, similar to a VP slot machine. You'll notice that the floorman will check the machine whenever a royal or five aces hit, to verify that the cards were not mucked between the players. The dice do randomize the hands further.
On these machines (I-deal, etc.), a random starting position that is produced by the RNG is displayed, so that the machine knows which position has which cards, for game verification purposes only, if a dispute arises. In no way are the cards stacked as they are being shuffled, it is a totally random shuffle that is simply read by the machine. Again, this is similar to a slot machine awareness of the hands dealt in Video poker. In this regard, using physical dice over the machine's RNG number display, or allowing player banking, will disrupt this "where the cards are" machine knowledge.
Obviously the casinos would not risk their license on something this small, but there are some conspiracy theorists out there...
The origin of the A2345 is the 2nd highest straight is that since the deck contains 5 aces, casinos developing house ways found that mathematically it was better for the house to make that hand which contains one of the aces higher in value. A player can arbitrarily set a hand that has a subtle bias, whereas the casino is locked into creating a house way that is easy enough for the dealers, supervisors, surveillance and everyone else to understand.
However sometimes the player, especially PGT, should adopt an opposite strategy (by making a stronger Hi and weaker Lo rather than best Lo). It seems strange that in PGP, except some two pair, the player's action is usually similar to the banker's and doesn't tend to have the 0/9 vs 4/5 scenario.
For those not familiar with P G Tiles, the aim is to make two hands which, with many exceptions, uses Baccarat scoring. Like PGP you have to win both to win, etc. It is usually better to make Lo=0,Hi=9 and try to win the High hand than 4/5 and possible lose both.
btw : Has anyone seen the game where you make two Baccarat hands from four cards? I once saw it many years ago (probably here - http://www.sycuan.com/casino/asian_games/double-hand-baccarat/ ) but have never seen it since.
Quote: charliepatrickThere are a few games with "House Way" (e.g. PGP PGT) and they typically allow the player to adopt a better strategy or take the bank. This is offset by taking 5% commission (or some other means with variants). Personally I wish these "House Ways" were kept simple and standardised without some casinos eeking out an advantage by adding exceptions or tweaks.
However sometimes the player, especially PGT, should adopt an opposite strategy (by making a stronger Hi and weaker Lo rather than best Lo). It seems strange that in PGP, except some two pair, the player's action is usually similar to the banker's and doesn't tend to have the 0/9 vs 4/5 scenario.
For those not familiar with P G Tiles, the aim is to make two hands which, with many exceptions, uses Baccarat scoring. Like PGP you have to win both to win, etc. It is usually better to make Lo=0,Hi=9 and try to win the High hand than 4/5 and possible lose both.
btw : Has anyone seen the game where you make two Baccarat hands from four cards? I once saw it many years ago (probably here - http://www.sycuan.com/casino/asian_games/double-hand-baccarat/ ) but have never seen it since.
I have had a reasonable amount of success at PGP playing opposite the house way in certain circumstances, especially when deciding whether to keep 2 pair together or split them; it depends to a certain extent on how the cards are running, but making the highest possible low hand (similar to your suggestion about PGT) consistently (not in every case, but using a consistent strategy) seems to help over a long session. The house seems to sacrifice some small advantages on certain hands in order to provide a house way that the dealers can remember easily. (The same is also true of Asia Poker).
