Sucker Bets
Poll
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31 members have voted
My own position is that it's ok when you understand the house edge and are willing to risk your money on such terms. Why? Because often there are other values involved. Fun, excitement, a thrill, etc. In the case of the hardways in craps, I find the dealers warm up to me, and to other players, when I or they bet a two-way hard anything. One such bet often makes for a more pleasant session.
Its more a matter of mood rather than precise knowledge.
What's not OK is to not know better than the woman playing BJ on the same table as me a couple of days ago. She was determined to make the sidebet on two spots on every round. You see this pattern of behavior more often than the "occasional lark"
What I don't understand why does someone needs justification to play a sucker bet? Are people afraid the Wizard may be watching them. Are they afraid others here may berate them for doing so? Is there a special award for people who don't play sucker bets? Unless you are playing with an advantage in the first place its all a suckers bet. Who cares? Your money, your time. If you want to risk more EV for a better payday.
As long as you know it's a sucker bet, and you still wanna do it, then regardless of the reason, it's ok.
Quote: tongniI have seen dealers misunderstand the payouts for some really bad bets. The worst I have seen was the $1 progressive in uth got paid on 7 cards, not first five, for 8 hours at Maryland Live.
How many royals did you see in 8 hours?
But I'm not perfect. Several years ago, my wife rolled 5 separate points and a player at our table won a lucrative fire bet payout as a result of my wife's impeccable dice skills. Neither my wife nor I had bet the fire bet so our net win on that one was $0. Ever since then, I've routinely put $1 on the fire bet.
Intellectually, I understand the math and know the fire bet is a terrible wager.
Emotionally, I'm a sucker.
I'm not proud of this.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceHow many royals did you see in 8 hours?
Probably none, but when you get 40 to 1 on a regular flush, who cares? Must have been a nice 8 hours unless you ran bad, tongni.
Quote: tringlomaneProbably none, but when you get 40 to 1 on a regular flush, who cares? Must have been a nice 8 hours unless you ran bad, tongni.
Maybe this is a different progressive than I've seen. The one I've seen pays on 7-card hands, except that a 7-card royal is only 10%; you need to flop it for the full 100%.
(That's why I asked about the number of royals, since everything else would be irrelevant)
I don't hide the fact that I gamble for a living from anyone. When I get asked about advantage gambling I sure don't march them over to a machine and say "Here, play this!" I use Shake A Day as an example and explain the math to them. And since I won't gamble at a disadvantage I only take the shake when the money is above $713.
I walked into the Golden Rose in Missoula to see an old bartender friend of mine, Claude. These college kids were busy trying to figure out some equation. They had napkins strewn all over the bar. I asked them what they were trying to figure out. They said they were trying to figure out the odds of Shake A Day.
"Try six to the fifth power divided by six." I said.
"That's 1296" One of them said "Are you sure?"
"Yes, I'm sure."
"Well, I'm gonna take this to a math professor at the University." One of them said.
"Be my guest. Tell him I said hi."
I think its more re-assurance or simply an aid to decision making. One of the best responses I ever heard about was the dealer who said "its a lousy bet but its only a dollar and if you don't do it, you will never hear the end of it".Quote: AxelWolfWhat I don't understand why does someone needs justification to play a sucker bet?
Quote: BozI believe Axel hit it right, unless you are playing with an advantage, which most of us are NOT, they are all sucker bets and we just play because we enjoy it. Unless you want to get into the whole "DI, etc" stuff, isnt playing craps a sucker bet? Yet many of us play and enjoy it, knowing full well we are going to lose over time.
Craps, using Basic Strategy, can be one of the lowest House Edge games that exist in the casino and at 100x odds factor the House Edge is equal to 0.06 percent. The ODDS Bet itself is always ZERO house edge as well as ZERO player edge. What a craps sucker bet would be is that which the Stickman is intoning everyone to make during his game "patter": hardways, hop bets, Cs and Es, etc. These are craps bets that can have up to a sixteen percent house edge.
Of course there is a story about one brave young stick chick who in the early hours of the morning altered her "patter" to include lines like "Get your Sucker Bets" and sure enough one man flipped down a twenty and said 'Money Plays on the Sucker Bet". Oh, there are indeed times when you are glad the Floor Person is on the other side of the pit and sound asleep.
I think the branding it as "1 shake a day max" is brilliant. It reminds people of daily bonuses they get frequently in online/mobile games. It makes it sound like "we won't give you more than 1 a day because that would be bad for us, hence it must be too good for you." These are people who know how to shear sheep and not slaughter. Friggin brilliant.Quote: mickeycrimmWe have a legal game in the bars here called Shake A Day. It's a progressive game. You get one shake a day. There's five dice in the cup. It costs 50 cents to roll the dice. If you roll a natural five of a kind you get the money in the progressive minus 10% to start the new jackpot. People come in the bar and take the roll everyday regardless of how high the progressive is. It might be only $50 but they still take the shake.
I don't hide the fact that I gamble for a living from anyone. When I get asked about advantage gambling I sure don't march them over to a machine and say "Here, play this!" I use Shake A Day as an example and explain the math to them. And since I won't gamble at a disadvantage I only take the shake when the money is above $713.
I walked into the Golden Rose in Missoula to see an old bartender friend of mine, Claude. These college kids were busy trying to figure out some equation. They had napkins strewn all over the bar. I asked them what they were trying to figure out. They said they were trying to figure out the odds of Shake A Day.
"Try six to the fifth power divided by six." I said.
"That's 1296" One of them said "Are you sure?"
"Yes, I'm sure."
"Well, I'm gonna take this to a math professor at the University." One of them said.
"Be my guest. Tell him I said hi."
Quote: NareedThe question is when is it ok to play a sucker bet.
My own position is that it's ok when you understand the house edge and are willing to risk your money on such terms. Why? Because often there are other values involved. Fun, excitement, a thrill, etc. In the case of the hardways in craps, I find the dealers warm up to me, and to other players, when I or they bet a two-way hard anything. One such bet often makes for a more pleasant session.
It's never Ok. The worst thing that can happen is that you win. Now you have an excuse to keep playing it. If you understand the house edge, why would you play it? This seems like a contradictory statement to me.
On the other hand, you almost have to play it when it is a jackpot sidebet. Because if you would have won had you played it, that negative EV is better than offing yourself in the parking lot.
Quote: endermikeI think the branding it as "1 shake a day max" is brilliant. It reminds people of daily bonuses they get frequently in online/mobile games. It makes it sound like "we won't give you more than 1 a day because that would be bad for us, hence it must be too good for you." These are people who know how to shear sheep and not slaughter. Friggin brilliant.
People will buy anything that's one per customer...
First of all: Out of all the craps players I have seen(a ton of them) no Matter how much they talk about 0.06 or whatever. They never stick to just that. They always come up with a reason to start betting other stuff. They justify it with everything you can think of including "COVER PLAY" I don't know what the DI classes are teaching nowadays, but I bet they are finding all kinds of ways to claim DI's can bet all the FUN bets and make lots of money.Quote: FleaStiffCraps, using Basic Strategy, can be one of the lowest House Edge games that exist in the casino and at 100x odds factor the House Edge is equal to 0.06 percent. The ODDS Bet itself is always ZERO house edge as well as ZERO player edge. What a craps sucker bet would be is that which the Stickman is intoning everyone to make during his game "patter": hardways, hop bets, Cs and Es, etc. These are craps bets that can have up to a sixteen percent house edge.
Of course there is a story about one brave young stick chick who in the early hours of the morning altered her "patter" to include lines like "Get your Sucker Bets" and sure enough one man flipped down a twenty and said 'Money Plays on the Sucker Bet". Oh, there are indeed times when you are glad the Floor Person is on the other side of the pit and sound asleep.
The problem is.... even if you do play optimally and that's your MO, You probably play much longer sessions and for more money. Don't forget the tips involved. This is not just something we can forget about. I think mission was over tipping the craps people. I don't care if he short rolled 5 feet from the back wall, that wont make up for it.
Quote: AxelWolf
The problem is.... even if you do play optimally and that's your MO, You probably play much longer sessions and for more money. Don't forget the tips involved. This is not just something we can forget about. I think mission was over tipping the craps people. I don't care if he short rolled 5 feet from the back wall, that wont make up for it.
In fairness, I don't claim to be at an advantage, though. The way that I tip, if you were to look at tips as increasing the House Edge, I'd probably be bucking about a 3-5% effective House Edge, and I don't see even FrankS claiming to be able to beat that!
I have a secret to tell. I know all the AP's are going to be mad at me for this, I just can't keep it in any longer.Quote: NareedThe question is when is it ok to play a sucker bet.
My own position is that it's ok when you understand the house edge and are willing to risk your money on such terms. Why? Because often there are other values involved. Fun, excitement, a thrill, etc. In the case of the hardways in craps, I find the dealers warm up to me, and to other players, when I or they bet a two-way hard anything. One such bet often makes for a more pleasant session.
When AP's come together or run into each other, there is a special code: Automatic honor and respect given, its like a brotherhood. We share (non gay, in most cases)glances back and froth in casinos and at WOV events. We give smug smiles and wink back and forth, while motioning towards the NON AP's. AP's all secretly talk about non AP's and how big of suckers they are. We talk about the different people and their levels of degeneracy. Some of us even have special lists of who to stay away from because they are bad luck. If you are not an AP, and ever in a room with an AP who suddenly starts texting, Its probably about you. Imagine what we are talking about when 3 or more are off talking.
Quote: NareedThe question is when is it ok to play a sucker bet.
They are never okay and your punishment is one push-up for every dollar you bet on one. However, you'll be happy to know that any you owe me can offset push ups that I owe you. Does that bring down my tab?
Undefined concept.Quote: NareedThe question is when is it ok to play a sucker bet.
If one defines "sucker bet" as negative EV, then why play at all? I buy lottery tickets because my expected UTILITY is positive. I play Caribbean Stud because I get fun doing it. I buy tombola tickets because I draw utility from helping a charity. Tipping a dealer (or a waiter) is typically -EV, yet you do it.
Look at Baccarat. WoO says betting Player or Banker is OK (sort of) but Tie is a sucker bet. My question: what is the numerical threshold for a bet to become "sucker"?
Say I play Blackjack, at 0.45% HE. It seems reasonable enough and is seemingly not viewed here as a sucker bet. Now, across the aisle is a table where you can drop an amount, the dealer takes 0.45% of it and gives you back 99.55%. Same HE! But I think that may be considered a supersucker bet...
So, again, what's the definition?
I can't stand sucker bets. They slow down the game and people (re: idiots) get mad at me when I don't play them.
I seek out blackjack tables without sucker bets. They're easy to find in Vegas, but at local casinos it's impossible.
Quote: ams288
I can't stand sucker bets. They slow down the game and people (re: idiots) get mad at me when I don't play them.
You can say that again
Quote: SonuvabishI am pretty sure this thread was in regard to side-bets that frequently carry a very large edge, of at least 5%.
The OP specifically referred to making a hard way craps bet as an example.
Sucker bets seem common across the board.
Quote: WizardThey are never okay and your punishment is one push-up for every dollar you bet on one. However, you'll be happy to know that any you owe me can offset push ups that I owe you. Does that bring down my tab?
I'd have to play sucker bets every session, every hand fir a month before your tab comes down appreciatively ;)
Quote: WizardThey are never okay and your punishment is one push-up for every dollar you bet on one.
I would have to do push ups every waking hour.
Quote: MrVThe OP specifically referred to making a hard way craps bet as an example.
Sucker bets seem common across the board.
Missed that. But those have a huge house edge. As a non-dice player, I'd frame it as a side-bet.
Yes. I fear the Wizard . . .Quote: AxelWolfWhat I don't understand why does someone needs justification to play a sucker bet? Are people afraid the Wizard may be watching them. .
Irrespective of terminology between "side bet", "center bet" and "sucker bet" ... I think its a matter of house edge.... you look around to make sure the Wizard is not watching you and then you put a dollar on it despite your guilt feelings. You know its "wrong" in a mathematical sense to make such a bet, you know its what the house wants you do... but you also know it just might win and heck, "its only a dollar". So a sucker bet is really one that your mind knows is extreme but its still enticing. If you add in the desires of a wife or girl friend, you know that the "one lousy dollar" is worth the peace of mind. Add in a few free drinks and you start thinking that way about "five dollars" and then "ten dollars".Quote: SonuvabishMissed that. But those have a huge house edge. As a non-dice player, I'd frame it as a side-bet.
This is not to say I bet them strictly "for fun." I do bet a two-way hard 6 or 8 when either's the point. In my experience most dealers appreciate this bet even more than a straight tip, though it often loses.
At PGP I always put at least $1 in the bonus because I'd hate to be dealt a really good hand and merely win $5 minus 5% for it. Or worse yet have it push or lose. And because I can also put a bonus bet for the dealer as well.
Now, I know dice have no memory(*), but still sometimes there are streaks (If you define a streak as when something happens for an arbitrary number of events, you will always find streaks of any arbitrary length), or some numbers seem to be "biting" more often. I know I'm dead wrong with this, but still, there was that bubble craps session at the Plaza where sevens were rare and 2,3,11 and 12 hit rather more often than usual. Even I was hitting them. Despite this I stuck to pass line, place 6 and 8, and two come bets, and told myself "Self, if you want to bet more just place a come bet and then odds." But I broke down and placed a $4 horn, which hit, I kept it going and it hit twice more.
I know. I got lucky.
But then on the session where I hit 8 with odds on four successive come bets I also got lucky (albeit on a smarter bet).
And the time I was playing don't pass at Rapid Craps and threw four 11 come outs in a row I got unlucky. It happens.
As a matter of fact my "strategy" for craps can be summed up as "Bet (mostly) smart and get lucky."
(*) I want to repat a joke Doc told me "Dice have no memory, but they do hold grudges." It ellicited much mirth when I retold it at craps (real and bubble).
