beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 10th, 2014 at 2:14:03 PM permalink
So, I played about 4 hours of UTH the other night. Both the main and relief dealers were pretty experienced and made no mistakes the first couple of hours that I saw. The pit supe was new to the casino (and possibly the game), but said she'd been in the business 27 years in Vegas before moving out here. The game is single-deck, the same deck hand-shuffled and dealt; cards are counted and washed after any Trips bet pay. (Yuck, but I do like the hand-shuffled part.)

I played 2 hands the whole time, the second hand blind with 4x on it. I had a run of good cards (actually dealer had bad cards for the most part) and that hand more than held its own, though bonuses were rare. The other 2 times I've tried playing this way, it bled too much in the first hour to continue, but this time it did well, paying for my less powerful playing hand a couple dozen times for a net win.

Anyways, in the third hour, the table had gone down to 1 other guy and me, and he decided to start playing 2 hands (he was betting greens in back and 50/hand on Trips; a local businessman who is a regular there). The pit supe was at the table, chatting with me and watching the game, and the flop was a rainbow. The dealer turned up a King to pair the board; I was on a lower pair and lost. My blind hand was on a high-card and lost. His played hand was on a lower pair and lost. While the dealer was resolving the hands, he was talking to the guy. The dealer opened his blind hand, and there was a ten that paired the board, so he paid the guy just as the pit manager walked up. He folded his hand, removed the cut card and was about to split the deck to shuffle (the player had already reset his bets) when the pit manager said "You had a pair of Kings". The dealer said, "What?" The pit manager repeated himself. The pit supe went over to the other side of the dealer, nudged the pit mgr, looked at the dealer, then looked at me questioningly. I gave a tiny shrug and nod, indicating, "yeah, he had a pair of Kings". Didn't really mean to indicate anything; just one of those times. (Nobody was saying the manager was wrong; just strange that the pit supe would include me in it.)

The dealer hesitated, then backed up the cards, put his hand and the flop out, then the player's cards, then they went through the mess of backing up the bet and taking the correct amount back, being sure not to take the Trips bet twice. The mgr watches the thing get settled, then wanders away. The pit supe comes back to stand next to me. The table's a bit quiet, as these things tend to put a little scare into the underlings.

So, the very next hand, dealer puts a jack-high straight on the board. Nice! His hand does not improve the board/ he has K4o. I'm in it for both hands Trips and my playing hand has a Q, so I win that one outright. Yea! My blind hand has ANOTHER Q and is max-bet. Yea! I get paid on all bets. The guy's first hand has paired the board w/50 Trips. Yeah! Except he's pushed the dealer. And yet the dealer pays ALL his bets. The pit supe stands there smiling about the good hands. The guy's blind hand pairs the board w/50 on Trips. Yeah! And the dealer AGAIN pays all his bets with a push. And the pit supe stands there smiling. And they gather it up and deal the next hand, and I say Not. One. Word. The rest of the time the hands were paid correctly, and my game went slightly south, though that was the turning point for the other guy; he was down about 700 at that point, and over the next hour went to +2800 cashout on a string of Trips wins at the end.

So, I've been thinking about it off and on since. I absolutely think it is 100% on the house to pay a player correctly, and 100% on the player involved in the bet to speak up, and not up to another player at the table to volunteer a correction on somebody's overpay. I don't know why the pit supe looked to ME to verify what the pit mgr claimed on the first hand. Or why she and the dealer didn't then pay closer attention to what they were doing, throwing a hundred+ bucks overage to the other guy. Or whether the dealer and regular were in collusion and taking advantage of the new pit supe. Or whether, really, I should have spoken up with some birdbrained comment like, "well, nobody could do worse than push that" to appease the table karma and give somebody a clue the guy hadn't won his back bets. I think the most likely thing is the dealer got in the mind-set, because I won with overcards twice, that every hand won, and the pit supe went there mentally, too, perhaps trusting the dealer or even ME to correct any problem; but maybe he was trying to pay the guy back for the previous hand, even though it ended up correctly. (He was a George like me, but betting bigger, so they did very well off him the whole way, then he tipped a black at the end.)

I don't know. But I wanted to revive the ethical discussion for another round and see what you all had to say. Thanks!
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
April 10th, 2014 at 2:25:35 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

So, I played about 4 hours of UTH the other night. Both the main and relief dealers were pretty experienced and made no mistakes the first couple of hours that I saw. The pit supe was new to the casino (and possibly the game), but said she'd been in the business 27 years in Vegas before moving out here. The game is single-deck, the same deck hand-shuffled and dealt; cards are counted and washed after any Trips bet pay. (Yuck, but I do like the hand-shuffled part.)

I played 2 hands the whole time, the second hand blind with 4x on it. I had a run of good cards (actually dealer had bad cards for the most part) and that hand more than held its own, though bonuses were rare. The other 2 times I've tried playing this way, it bled too much in the first hour to continue, but this time it did well, paying for my less powerful playing hand a couple dozen times for a net win.

Anyways, in the third hour, the table had gone down to 1 other guy and me, and he decided to start playing 2 hands (he was betting greens in back and 50/hand on Trips; a local businessman who is a regular there). The pit supe was at the table, chatting with me and watching the game, and the flop was a rainbow. The dealer turned up a King to pair the board; I was on a lower pair and lost. My blind hand was on a high-card and lost. His played hand was on a lower pair and lost. While the dealer was resolving the hands, he was talking to the guy. The dealer opened his blind hand, and there was a ten that paired the board, so he paid the guy just as the pit manager walked up. He folded his hand, removed the cut card and was about to split the deck to shuffle (the player had already reset his bets) when the pit manager said "You had a pair of Kings". The dealer said, "What?" The pit manager repeated himself. The pit supe went over to the other side of the dealer, nudged the pit mgr, looked at the dealer, then looked at me questioningly. I gave a tiny shrug and nod, indicating, "yeah, he had a pair of Kings". Didn't really mean to indicate anything; just one of those times. (Nobody was saying the manager was wrong; just strange that the pit supe would include me in it.)

The dealer hesitated, then backed up the cards, put his hand and the flop out, then the player's cards, then they went through the mess of backing up the bet and taking the correct amount back, being sure not to take the Trips bet twice. The mgr watches the thing get settled, then wanders away. The pit supe comes back to stand next to me. The table's a bit quiet, as these things tend to put a little scare into the underlings.

So, the very next hand, dealer puts a jack-high straight on the board. Nice! His hand does not improve the board/ he has K4o. I'm in it for both hands Trips and my playing hand has a Q, so I win that one outright. Yea! My blind hand has ANOTHER Q and is max-bet. Yea! I get paid on all bets. The guy's first hand has paired the board w/50 Trips. Yeah! Except he's pushed the dealer. And yet the dealer pays ALL his bets. The pit supe stands there smiling about the good hands. The guy's blind hand pairs the board w/50 on Trips. Yeah! And the dealer AGAIN pays all his bets with a push. And the pit supe stands there smiling. And they gather it up and deal the next hand, and I say Not. One. Word. The rest of the time the hands were paid correctly, and my game went slightly south, though that was the turning point for the other guy; he was down about 700 at that point, and over the next hour went to +2800 cashout on a string of Trips wins at the end.

So, I've been thinking about it off and on since. I absolutely think it is 100% on the house to pay a player correctly, and 100% on the player involved in the bet to speak up, and not up to another player at the table to volunteer a correction on somebody's overpay. I don't know why the pit supe looked to ME to verify what the pit mgr claimed on the first hand. Or why she and the dealer didn't then pay closer attention to what they were doing, throwing a hundred+ bucks overage to the other guy. Or whether the dealer and regular were in collusion and taking advantage of the new pit supe. Or whether, really, I should have spoken up with some birdbrained comment like, "well, nobody could do worse than push that" to appease the table karma and give somebody a clue the guy hadn't won his back bets. I think the most likely thing is the dealer got in the mind-set, because I won with overcards twice, that every hand won, and the pit supe went there mentally, too, perhaps trusting the dealer or even ME to correct any problem; but maybe he was trying to pay the guy back for the previous hand, even though it ended up correctly. (He was a George like me, but betting bigger, so they did very well off him the whole way, then he tipped a black at the end.)

I don't know. But I wanted to revive the ethical discussion for another round and see what you all had to say. Thanks!



Definitely, not your place to say anything.

Also, I get that you just play for fun, are paying for entertainment, and expect to lose (etc, etc), but, why, oh why, for the love of god, would you play a blind hand?? You do know how expensive that is, right? I totally get that you want more action, but why not just double up your bet on your first hand?

Sorry, I had to mention that. It would have been unethical of me not to.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 10th, 2014 at 2:31:23 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Definitely, not your place to say anything.

Also, I get that you just play for fun, are paying for entertainment, and expect to lose (etc, etc), but, why, oh why, for the love of god, would you play a blind hand?? You do know how expensive that is, right? I totally get that you want more action, but why not just double up your bet on your first hand?

Sorry, I had to mention that. It would have been unethical of me not to.



Heeheehee; I appreciate your demonstration of integrity. If the cards are running well for the blind hand, I continue to play it. If they're not, I drop it. This time, they were good, so I let it run. But yes, I'm not AP'ing, just enjoying the game.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
LarryS
LarryS
  • Threads: 67
  • Posts: 1410
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
April 10th, 2014 at 2:51:03 PM permalink
I never go outof my way to help the house or help the player. Its the players responsibility to catch mistakes involving their payout. I dont know how many times at roulette I see these newbies covering the board, getting a hit involving quads, splits, streets, and stragiht up...and they get pay incorrectly. If they cant calculate a win....and notice the descrepency...then they should not be playing. If a craps player isnt paying attention to see that a die moved his dollar off the hard 10....its not me who is gonna complain or verify it when he sees it missing a roll later. And being consistant...I dont point out mistakes of the house in the favor of the player.

on top of that....If a player is drinking the chances of missing a mispay goes up...and far be it for me to be the caretaker of someone who is not paying attention/depressing their awareness/depressing their mental acuity,,,, on purpose by drinking.

Some people get overpaid and never realize it, some people get underpaid and never realize it....drugs(including alcohol). fatique,poor game knowledge are the usual suspects....and all are within the control of the individual.
RS
RS
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 8626
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
April 10th, 2014 at 3:25:43 PM permalink
Other than playing a hand blind, you did the right thing.
chefphydeaux
chefphydeaux
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 36
Joined: Feb 22, 2012
April 10th, 2014 at 3:32:08 PM permalink
I too will remain an bump on a log playing any game. I dont volunteer information backing player or house unless the play has an affect on my hand or payout. My quote usually is "elebenty billion cameras here, and only 2 eyes watching my money".
I did have an event happen a couple years ago on the game, where I bystander pointed out to the dealer that he had a straight, beating the table, not a slop hand paying the table. A BYSTANDER! Im semi ok with a player in the game pointing this out, but not someone with skin in the game, karma or something.
I was playing red chips, no big deal to me, I legitimately lost the hand. other were green chippers and more upset. One commented to loose lips the shut the hell up, or next time suffer a beating.
A cardinal rule I learned along time ago, Dont fuck with someone else money; dont fuck with someone else woman.

Phydeaux
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 10th, 2014 at 3:50:05 PM permalink
Quote: chefphydeaux

I too will remain an bump on a log playing any game. I dont volunteer information backing player or house unless the play has an affect on my hand or payout. My quote usually is "elebenty billion cameras here, and only 2 eyes watching my money".
I did have an event happen a couple years ago on the game, where I bystander pointed out to the dealer that he had a straight, beating the table, not a slop hand paying the table. A BYSTANDER! Im semi ok with a player in the game pointing this out, but not someone with skin in the game, karma or something.
I was playing red chips, no big deal to me, I legitimately lost the hand. other were green chippers and more upset. One commented to loose lips the shut the hell up, or next time suffer a beating.
A cardinal rule I learned along time ago, Dont fuck with someone else money; dont fuck with someone else woman.

Phydeaux



Eloquent and exactly right, phydeaux; thanks! I've been the victim of bystanders' interference before as well (called it before they'd gotten to my pay), though I don't allow the house to overpay me; it's most annoying. One of the worst was on that same UTH table last year, where I was 2nd to get paid on a hand, and as the dealer was making the error on my hand, the player who had been first paid quickly pointed it out. The thing was, HE had gotten paid through the same error, had quickly taken the money in, and claimed he wasn't paid in error. They said, "Yes, you got paid wrong" and he was, like, prove it; no money beside my bet. I had seen them pay him erroneously and was still trying to decide what to do about it, since he had benefitted, if they paid me wrong, which they were in the process of doing. So he burned MY hand, claimed successfully he hadn't been overpaid, and made ME look like a cheat, all in the same transaction. I was furious, but couldn't bring myself to stoop to his level and call him a liar on his pay. I got my karma revenge when he busted out a few hands later, while I had a solid winning session that day.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
dwheatley
dwheatley
  • Threads: 25
  • Posts: 1246
Joined: Nov 16, 2009
April 10th, 2014 at 4:47:37 PM permalink
I will echo that the only really unethical thing you did is play a UTH hand blind. Somewhere between a 14 and 45% house edge. No one has bothered to calculate it exactly, because it's terribly unethical to your bankroll to play that way :)

Keeping quiet on another person's mispay is a very grey area, but the majority of gamblers support keeping quiet. You want to be 100% ethical, you should point it out, but that rarely goes over well with the victim. It could even lead to you getting into physical danger, so you could argue the correct thing to do is not point it out.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
FinsRule
FinsRule
  • Threads: 128
  • Posts: 3914
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
April 10th, 2014 at 5:24:12 PM permalink
Quote: dwheatley

I will echo that the only really unethical thing you did is play a UTH hand blind. Somewhere between a 14 and 45% house edge. No one has bothered to calculate it exactly, because it's terribly unethical to your bankroll to play that way :)

Keeping quiet on another person's mispay is a very grey area, but the majority of gamblers support keeping quiet. You want to be 100% ethical, you should point it out, but that rarely goes over well with the victim. It could even lead to you getting into physical danger, so you could argue the correct thing to do is not point it out.



There's no way it's that high of a house edge. 10% maybe?
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
April 10th, 2014 at 5:27:24 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

There's no way it's that high of a house edge. 10% maybe?



I suspect that most players give up more than a 10% edge in that game.

Not that I'm saying that I'm sure that all-in blind is worse than the way most players play. At least the blind bet gets diluted.
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
  • Threads: 29
  • Posts: 1342
Joined: Feb 5, 2014
April 10th, 2014 at 6:01:31 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

So, I played about 4 hours of UTH the other night. Both the main and relief dealers were pretty experienced and made no mistakes the first couple of hours that I saw. The pit supe was new to the casino (and possibly the game), but said she'd been in the business 27 years in Vegas before moving out here. The game is single-deck, the same deck hand-shuffled and dealt; cards are counted and washed after any Trips bet pay. (Yuck, but I do like the hand-shuffled part.)

I played 2 hands the whole time, the second hand blind with 4x on it. I had a run of good cards (actually dealer had bad cards for the most part) and that hand more than held its own, though bonuses were rare. The other 2 times I've tried playing this way, it bled too much in the first hour to continue, but this time it did well, paying for my less powerful playing hand a couple dozen times for a net win.

Anyways, in the third hour, the table had gone down to 1 other guy and me, and he decided to start playing 2 hands (he was betting greens in back and 50/hand on Trips; a local businessman who is a regular there). The pit supe was at the table, chatting with me and watching the game, and the flop was a rainbow. The dealer turned up a King to pair the board; I was on a lower pair and lost. My blind hand was on a high-card and lost. His played hand was on a lower pair and lost. While the dealer was resolving the hands, he was talking to the guy. The dealer opened his blind hand, and there was a ten that paired the board, so he paid the guy just as the pit manager walked up. He folded his hand, removed the cut card and was about to split the deck to shuffle (the player had already reset his bets) when the pit manager said "You had a pair of Kings". The dealer said, "What?" The pit manager repeated himself. The pit supe went over to the other side of the dealer, nudged the pit mgr, looked at the dealer, then looked at me questioningly. I gave a tiny shrug and nod, indicating, "yeah, he had a pair of Kings". Didn't really mean to indicate anything; just one of those times. (Nobody was saying the manager was wrong; just strange that the pit supe would include me in it.)

The dealer hesitated, then backed up the cards, put his hand and the flop out, then the player's cards, then they went through the mess of backing up the bet and taking the correct amount back, being sure not to take the Trips bet twice. The mgr watches the thing get settled, then wanders away. The pit supe comes back to stand next to me. The table's a bit quiet, as these things tend to put a little scare into the underlings.

So, the very next hand, dealer puts a jack-high straight on the board. Nice! His hand does not improve the board/ he has K4o. I'm in it for both hands Trips and my playing hand has a Q, so I win that one outright. Yea! My blind hand has ANOTHER Q and is max-bet. Yea! I get paid on all bets. The guy's first hand has paired the board w/50 Trips. Yeah! Except he's pushed the dealer. And yet the dealer pays ALL his bets. The pit supe stands there smiling about the good hands. The guy's blind hand pairs the board w/50 on Trips. Yeah! And the dealer AGAIN pays all his bets with a push. And the pit supe stands there smiling. And they gather it up and deal the next hand, and I say Not. One. Word. The rest of the time the hands were paid correctly, and my game went slightly south, though that was the turning point for the other guy; he was down about 700 at that point, and over the next hour went to +2800 cashout on a string of Trips wins at the end.

So, I've been thinking about it off and on since. I absolutely think it is 100% on the house to pay a player correctly, and 100% on the player involved in the bet to speak up, and not up to another player at the table to volunteer a correction on somebody's overpay. I don't know why the pit supe looked to ME to verify what the pit mgr claimed on the first hand. Or why she and the dealer didn't then pay closer attention to what they were doing, throwing a hundred+ bucks overage to the other guy. Or whether the dealer and regular were in collusion and taking advantage of the new pit supe. Or whether, really, I should have spoken up with some birdbrained comment like, "well, nobody could do worse than push that" to appease the table karma and give somebody a clue the guy hadn't won his back bets. I think the most likely thing is the dealer got in the mind-set, because I won with overcards twice, that every hand won, and the pit supe went there mentally, too, perhaps trusting the dealer or even ME to correct any problem; but maybe he was trying to pay the guy back for the previous hand, even though it ended up correctly. (He was a George like me, but betting bigger, so they did very well off him the whole way, then he tipped a black at the end.)

I don't know. But I wanted to revive the ethical discussion for another round and see what you all had to say. Thanks!



If you ever sit down next to me and inform an employee they overpaid me, then I hope you don't smoke. Because I'm going to immediately light one up. I hope you don't like it when people clap when you lose. Because I will. To add, it's not your job to lie. There was nothing wrong with acknowledging the supervisor was correct when you were directly asked. And playing a blind hand is horribly wrong. The cards never run a certain way, you are experiencing variance. Positive variance, i.e. luck, is less likely to occur when you play blind.
dwheatley
dwheatley
  • Threads: 25
  • Posts: 1246
Joined: Nov 16, 2009
April 10th, 2014 at 6:04:30 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

There's no way it's that high of a house edge. 10% maybe?



There's an older thread where the forum tried to figure it out:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/poker/15506-house-edge-on-playing-a-blind-hand-on-ultimate-texas-holdem/

miplet figured a lower bound of 14%, and an upper bound of 44%, if I'm interpreting that thread correctly.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
sodawater
sodawater
  • Threads: 64
  • Posts: 3321
Joined: May 14, 2012
April 10th, 2014 at 6:33:54 PM permalink
BBB,

That was a very long post for a very simple issue. Unless you're receiving paychecks from the club to supervise its game, you have zero ethical obligation to point out dealer errors that help you or another player at the table. That's not your job in the same way that it's not your job to watch for mistakes two tables down.

It's not your job in the same way that it's not your job to scrub the toilets in the bathroom.

On a lot of issues there can be two sides, but this isn't one of them. Why would the club be entitled to free labor from its customers? I never even understood why anyone would think it's an ethical obligation to point out dealer errors. The customer is not even licensed to deal the game, much less supervise it.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 10th, 2014 at 6:53:15 PM permalink
Thanks for the discussion, everyone. LOL on all the 2nd hand criticism; I'm sure you're right. I was enjoying the variance while it lasted that day.

I started the discussion for someone else, to let them get a sample of responses. I was pretty confident of what I did, and no, Son, I don't call hands or correct overpays on other people. Ever. I do correct underpays/no pays if the dealer misses a bonus or something. I seem to see them faster than most if not all the people I play with, including most dealers. But I don't work for the casinos.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
RS
RS
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 8626
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
April 10th, 2014 at 8:48:27 PM permalink
As they say at the dice table, "You call the numbers, you make the payouts." In other words, if you don't work here, shut the f*ck up.
michael99000
michael99000
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 2113
Joined: Jul 10, 2010
April 10th, 2014 at 9:04:13 PM permalink
This is a huge issue at 4 Card Poker, where the dealer routinely doesn't realize he has a flush.

Which is why I HATE when the dealer flips over his cards and another player immediately shouts "Dammit another flush." Give him a chance to not see it you moron.

Those 2 seconds after he forms his hand not seeing the flush, and glances it over before beginning payouts.. Seems like forever.
UTHfan
UTHfan
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 155
Joined: Mar 10, 2013
April 11th, 2014 at 5:01:18 PM permalink
Ethics? The casino is designed to confuse and distract you. Assume that if they hand you money, it's yours. If they try to take money, be sure they deserve it.

Also, what the what? The way the second hand should work is that you play your first cards blind to what the second cards are. Then you can can see them. Am I understanding you that you played blind blind? huh? betting 4x blind? hmm. ok.

I found that the dealers are very lucky in the real world, I'd be maximizing my edge, not giving away more and more negative EV.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 11th, 2014 at 5:40:01 PM permalink
I've only tried the 2nd hand blind 2 places. The NCL Epic allowed a blind hand with 1x bet only. This casino allows it with 4x or 3x only. Neither one allows you to look at any point. I would think it's because you have 3 opportunities to check/fold or bet, so you can't go back and forth. If the dealer's running weak, which they were doing that night, it can hold its own. But I drop it fast if it's not working. Makes it more fun.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
RogerKint
RogerKint
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 1916
Joined: Dec 5, 2011
April 11th, 2014 at 5:54:43 PM permalink
This afternoon, while scouting uth, I saw an old lady fold her Q high against K high. With the quickness, dealer starts to collect her bet including ante. I had to say something even if it wasn't the right thing to do.

And babs, you earn your own money. Dont let anyone else tell you how to spend it. I wish you more positive variance on that blind hand!
100% risk of ruin
  • Jump to: