If free play was for sale...

1)
If the casino sold $1000 free play, what would a fair price be?

2)If a casino sold free play which included a free room Friday-Sunday worth $400, how much would a fair price be and how much free play would you have to buy?

Edit: You can play any machine which accepts free play. Lets pretend all do but the technologically outdated machines.
Edit again:strictly theoretical.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

1)
If the casino sold $1000 free play, what would a fair price be?

2)If a casino sold free play which included a free room Friday-Sunday worth $400, how much would a fair price be and how much free play would you have to buy?

Are they doing this somewhere? The more you can buy the more I would pay for it. I would not care to go around buying $5 for $1 to much work.

U should be willing to pay 85% on the dollar, if you can buy it at large amounts or it may not be worth your time.
This would be only from a casino I would pay that high, I would never pay that much from an individual

Quote: AxelWolf

Are they doing this somewhere? The more you can buy the more I would pay for it. I would not care to go around buying $5 for $1 to much work.

U should be willing to pay 85% on the dollar, if you can buy it at large amounts or it may not be worth your time.
This would be only from a casino I would pay that high, I would never pay that much from an individual

No, it's only theoretical.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

1)
If the casino sold $1000 free play, what would a fair price be?

2)If a casino sold free play which included a free room Friday-Sunday worth $400, how much would a fair price be and how much free play would you have to buy?

Edit: You can play any machine which accepts free play. Lets pretend all do but the technologically outdated machines.

It would be worth around face value because of full pay video poker. but you'd probably want a discount for buying it.

There's no such thing as a free room worth $400. If you put $1000 coin in in one visit they'd probably give you a room anyway.

Quote: sodawater

If you put $1000 coin in in one visit they'd probably give you a room anyway.

Ummmm....NO

Quote: onenickelmiracle

1)
If the casino sold $1000 free play, what would a fair price be?

It depends on the best game the casino offers that is applicable to the Free Play in terms of Expected Value, and also, whether or not (rare) the casino offers a game in which the Free Play could be straight-up liquidated.

IOW, if you could use it on Loose Deuces, then the expectation is 1000 * 1.016 = $1,016, which would be the fair price.

If you could use it on E-Craps (liquidation) then you would go $500 Pass, $500 Don't Pass and:

35/36 * 1000 = $972.22 which would be the fair price because you are looking to liquidate it without using your own money to effectively have a chance of doubling it.

If the result was actually 12 on the CO, I'm not sure if the Free Play could be cashed at that time or would need bet again, so that's why I don't finish the problem. If you could cash it, then:

500 * 1/36 = 13.89 + 972.22 = 986.11, which you see pretty much represents (500 * .0136) + (500 * .141) = 13.85 the $1,000 after the combined expected loss on the two $500 bets.

If the result was a 12 on the CO, and the $500 had to be played again, and you wanted to try to turn it into a grand by betting $500 on the DP again:

It would be the same 13.8, but then you also have the House Edge on the $500 needing re-bet, so:

13.85 + (500 * .014 * 1/36) = 14.044444444444444

So, in that scenario, the fair value would be about $985.96. The difference being the fact that the DP must resolve.

Quote:

2)If a casino sold free play which included a free room Friday-Sunday worth $400, how much would a fair price be and how much free play would you have to buy?

The value of the free play + $400, I guess, even though the room should only be, "Worth," $400 to the house. I can't imagine what should make the value of any room $400 to the player.

I don't know how much Free Play you would have to buy, couldn't you just buy the room for $400 if you wanted?

Quote: AxelWolf

Ummmm....NO

ha i guess the casinos im referring to are desperate

I think you're underestimating your play.

Regardless, "fair" is a very ambiguous term. I don't think I'd buy free play for more than two-thirds the amount, and then only if I could play it on VBJ or 8/5 or better JoB. Of course, if you could and were likely to, "fair" would be 97% or so.

Sodawater: You might be able to get future offers, but a casino would not wipe the bill out someone already paid upfront for to buy. It's often thought of as a we already have your money situation, so........no. When it's a ridiculous loss much more than the room cost, maybe but sometimes even no if a lot of coin-in and the player is still ahead.

Mission: Yes you could have the option of just paying for the room. In this scenario, the hotel wants to be sure you'll lose enough to comp the room upfront and the player wants to be sure as long as they play, the room will be free.

Although I cannot disagree with the valuations and think the casino would have to take precautions assuming people would play the best machines, the casinos would love people bringing ten thousand into the casino knowing once the money is inside their doors, it's at risk. If a casino sold free play this way, people would walk in not being able to play whatever they want. Although it's not a part of the original question, it would make sense before a casino offered this, they would probably consider it would have to be purchased in advance. Or maybe not, I am not sure.

I'm also kind of swaying with another idea maybe there isn't a fair price. If a player takes a higher house edge machine to play, such as a slot at 83%, the fair price would be much lower for them. Fair is subject to semantics I suppose.

Quote: 24Bingo

I think you're underestimating your play.

Regardless, "fair" is a very ambiguous term. I don't think I'd buy free play for more than two-thirds the amount, and then only if I could play it on VBJ or 8/5 or better JoB. Of course, if you could and were likely to, "fair" would be 97% or so.

Such is the reason it's not done. You could buy $40 Free play online for $20 for some casinos which offer it at certain sites, but only once per person and thought of as a marketing expense just to get people there. Iirc, I believe the Palms does it and some casinos in Florida. I am unaware of the site offhand or the restrictions.

I raised this question over on my forum a few weeks ago because at Rincon there are players who want to sell their "free play."

Free play there can come in two forms: credits that you download onto your game with your player's card inserted (password needed) and free play in the form of "tickets" which are obtained from the cage with certain promotions. These tickets usually don't expire for 6 months to a year.

Rincon free play for table players comes in the form of promo chips which are of course easily transferrable.

At Caesars LV free play comes in the form of tickets. Years ago they gave out promo chips.

At the Bicycle Casino (card casino in LA) there is an active market buying and selling "promo chips" that players win in qualifiers for tournaments. At The Bike they usually change hands at face value because players are simply helping other players -- and from time to time we all end up with the "tournament chips."

While I have never seen anyone sell free play at Caesars, it was being discussed at Rincon.

The concensus was that the free play had to be priced well below the expected return of the game.

By the way, selling free play is what made Bob Stupak famous. For a fixed dollar amount, players got XXX amount of "casino action" (as he called it).

Fair price for "free slot play" (that you could use on video poker, even as bad as 6/5 JoB), fair price I'd pay would be $600.

I think that valuing freeplay is an interesting problem, and actually pretty useful when trying to value promotions (eg, the Cosmo promotion that I was apparently the last gambler on earth to hear about today, where you get $100 in freeplay the first time you lose $100 in a day)

First, I feel that Mission's earlier statement:

Quote: Mission146

if you could use it on Loose Deuces, then the expectation is 1000 * 1.016 = $1,016, which would be the fair price.

is (with all due respect) a little bit ridiculous. First of all, it values your time as being worth $0. Second (and more importantly), who in their right mind would pay $1,016 for $1000 in freeplay when they could just put $1000 into the machine instead and save the $16? Clearly, the freeplay can be worth no more than $1000 (assuming that the machine accepts cash as well as freeplay)

Also: most places will give you comps when playing cash, but not when playing freeplay. Therefore, the $1000 in freeplay is actually worth strictly less than $1000 -- its max value is $1000 - $x, where $x is the value of the comps that you would get from $1000 in play.

Furthermore (from an AP perspective), no one should take on variance for free. Repeatedly doing so has a 100% risk of ruin (another way of saying this is that the optimal Kelly bet for a bet with no edge is $0, regardless of your bankroll size). Therefore, we need to further discount the value of the freeplay by an amount that is determined by both your bankroll, and the variance that you take on in order to play through that $1000.

So, given:

1. The expected return of the machine that you will play on
2. The total variance of the sum of all your bets (eg, if you are playing it on a $1 VP machine, at $5/bet, 200x the variance of one bet)
3. The value of the comps that you will get for $1000 in play (the value to you, which may be less than their face value)
4. The value that you place on the amount of time it will take you to play through the $1000
5. The size of your bankroll

it would be possible to determine the maximum that you should be willing to pay for the freeplay.

Note that if you're trying to pick the best machine, you can combine #1 and #2 into the DI (I believe that there was a thread about this earlier). The optimal play is the one with the highest DI, if you ignore #4 (the value of your time -- it will take 4x as long to play through the money at a quarter machine than at a dollar machine!)

I actually think that this is a really interesting question. It made me think about a lot of different parts that go into finding a good play.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

is (with all due respect) a little bit ridiculous. First of all, it values your time as being worth $0. Second (and more importantly), who in their right mind would pay $1,016 for $1000 in freeplay when they could just put $1000 into the machine instead and save the $16? Clearly, the freeplay can be worth no more than $1000 (assuming that the machine accepts cash as well as freeplay)

I didn't really understand what he wanted as an answer, when he used the term, "Fair value," I thought he was asking, "How much is it worth?" If you have an investment expected to return a positive 1.6%, then the investment is worth whatever amount you can invest in it plus 1.6%, in terms of cash value. In the case of something that returns exactly 100% or more than 100%, in terms of, "Fair value," there is no difference between free play and cash with regard to expectation.

I also didn't factor time in, just how much the free play was worth in terms of Expected Value.

I guess I'm not saying that I would actually pay $1,016 for $1,000 Free Play to play on Loose Deuces. Depending on what games were available at the casino that could be used with the Free Play (and the amount of the Free Play, but we'll assume $1,000) I would pay between $600-$800.

Quote:

Also: most places will give you comps when playing cash, but not when playing freeplay. Therefore, the $1000 in freeplay is actually worth strictly less than $1000 -- its max value is $1000 - $x, where $x is the value of the comps that you would get from $1000 in play.

Not a consideration in terms of, "Fair value." My answer was basically just an answer on the expected return of the Free Play absent other considerations.

Quote:

1. The expected return of the machine that you will play on
2. The total variance of the sum of all your bets (eg, if you are playing it on a $1 VP machine, at $5/bet, 200x the variance of one bet)
3. The value of the comps that you will get for $1000 in play (the value to you, which may be less than their face value)
4. The value that you place on the amount of time it will take you to play through the $1000
5. The size of your bankroll

My answer factoring these things in is between $600-$800 depending on the situation and machines available.

Mission, come on, you have to acknowledge that it is impossible for $1000 free play to have a value of more than $1000 if the machines also accept cash. That would be true whether the slot you chose had an EV of 101%, 80%, or 200%. The fact that the machine accepts cash puts an upper limit on how much the freeplay would be worth. Your comparison to an investment makes no sense. A more apt comparison would be whether you could buy a gift card that can be used to invest, and the investment also accepts cash. Here, again, the upper bound cash value of the gift card would face value.

Another reason your answer of $1016 makes no sense is that if you had $1015 you would be better off putting that cash in the slot machine directly than buying freeplay.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Mission: Yes you could have the option of just paying for the room. In this scenario, the hotel wants to be sure you'll lose enough to comp the room upfront and the player wants to be sure as long as they play, the room will be free.

Although I cannot disagree with the valuations and think the casino would have to take precautions assuming people would play the best machines, the casinos would love people bringing ten thousand into the casino knowing once the money is inside their doors, it's at risk. If a casino sold free play this way, people would walk in not being able to play whatever they want. Although it's not a part of the original question, it would make sense before a casino offered this, they would probably consider it would have to be purchased in advance. Or maybe not, I am not sure.

I'm also kind of swaying with another idea maybe there isn't a fair price. If a player takes a higher house edge machine to play, such as a slot at 83%, the fair price would be much lower for them. Fair is subject to semantics I suppose.

Paragraph responses in order:

1.) It sounds like the Free Play isn't actually Free Play, it's just going to be a certain amount of money that gets pre-loaded onto a Player's Club card in addition to a room and in exchange for cash such that the player will have to run x cash through at least once.

If that's the case, then I could say that if the casino honestly believes the room is worth $400, and the Slot Play amount is $1,000, then they'll probably want you to pay $1,400 for it. All they are really getting is the expected loss (or win) on the $1,000 coin-in as well as the $400 for the room.

In terms of time, it seems more Economical just to sell the player the room for $400 and then the player can gamble as he/she desires.

If the hotel is going to comp a room that it honestly believes is worth $400, then they are going to want, at a minimum, an expected loss of $400 which could be anywhere from $4,000-$40,000 in Free Play depending on what you are playing...or, if they have a positive expectation game for which this applies, they would probably rather you just pay for the room.

2.) I don't know, it seems a strange way of doing it. Kind of what I said above, instead of just buying the room it seems that you are suggesting that the player purchase an amount of Free Play that has an equivalent expected loss to whatever the room would have cost, anyway. I suppose a player could get a lot of value if the casino is just going to assume everyone will play 90% returning slots.

3.) I don't know, the fair price is just the overall expected return for whatever gets played, in terms of the free play.

Quote: sodawater

Mission, come on, you have to acknowledge that it is impossible for $1000 free play to have a value of more than $1000 if the machines also accept cash. That would be true whether the slot you chose had an EV of 101%, 80%, or 200%. The fact that the machine accepts cash puts an upper limit on how much the freeplay would be worth. Your comparison to an investment makes no sense. A more apt comparison would be whether you could buy a gift card that can be used to invest, and the investment also accepts cash. Here, again, the upper bound cash value of the gift card would face value.

Another reason your answer of $1016 makes no sense is that if you had $1015 you would be better off putting that cash in the slot machine directly than buying freeplay.

If you ignore time and other considerations and I pull out $1,016 and hand it to you, then you give me $1,000 of it back, and then some amount of time later you give me another $16, I now have $1,016 again. The $1,016 = $1,016. The only way I'd actually be better off with the $1,016 (as opposed to the $1,000) is to gamble the $1,016 straight through, on my own, rather than trade it for that Free Play because then it is worth 1016 * 1.016 = 1032.256

However, strictly speaking, the $1,000 Free Play has a fair value of $1,016...it's the $1,016 you'd be paying for it that has a greater fair value than $1,016.

The end result after subtracting house edge, and the value of the time it takes to run it through. Also the variance goes into effect as well.

Maybe losing 2-5% with normal video poker variance, so I'd pay 900 if I can run it in one hour for $50/hr after subtracting the 5% house edge. I had an opportunity to do this with someone but decided against it as I play at that casino a lot and don't want to be marked.

Quote: Mission146

I don't know, the fair price is just the overall expected return for whatever gets played, in terms of the free play.

I disagree. I feel that the fair price is the maximum price that a rational person should pay.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I disagree. I feel that the fair price is the maximum price that a rational person should pay.

Subjective, which is fine. "Fair price," in the subjective sense, is just whatever both parties agree to. If the two parties cannot determine a price that both of them find reasonable, then there will be no agreement, and the result is that they did not arrive at a fair price.

It can't be, "The maximum price that a rational person should pay," because two different people might have different maximum prices, yet both be rational, and why should one endeavor to pay the most that one is willing to pay in the first place? I don't think it is rational to open up offering the most you are willing to pay, it is rational to offer less initially, but still fair if the other party accepts. I prefer to pay less than I am actually willing to pay, if possible.

Fairness is identity, $1 = $1, again, barring any other considerations. There are other considerations here, but again, I didn't exactly understand the intent of the original question and basically got, "How much is it worth," out of it.

In any event, I would pay $600-$800 for $1,000 in Free Play depending on what machines were available.

It's inherent once you buy the free play, you no longer have the option of not gambling unless you don't care to forfeit the free play entirely. If it were me, it would have to low enough a price to forfeit the right to not gamble.
On the room thing, this is why the casinos offer these outrageous requirements if you ask because they have to protect themselves for all situations upfront. In the end, the casino wouldn't want people to just take these deals and create an incentive to only gamble with the offers.

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Here's the other thing, now that I really think about it:

We're kind of losing context of the original issue in discussing this because we have went from one thing into a question of, "How much would you pay someone else for the Free Play?" The problem is, the OP would have us paying the casino for the Free Play (which, again, I didn't realize initially, I just thought the question was how much was it worth).

Okay, so this opens up all kinds of questions.

1.) How much would I be putting in coin-in at this casino regardless of whether or not I bought Free Play from them?

-Basically, if I was definitely going to run at least $1,000 through in play, anyway, then anything less than $1,000 - (Comp value of $1,000 gambled in cash) is a good bargain. If one point is worth $0.01 and I get one point for every $5.00 gambled, absent any other comps, paying anything less than $998 for the $1,000 Free Play would be a good deal, regardless of what machine I intended to play.

-On the other hand, if I did not intend to put $1,000 coin-in (which is significantly less than $1,000, in all likelihood, when not paying it up front) in the first place, or had no idea how much coin I was putting in, then I might want a discount. I'm pretty much captive to some extent until I run the $1,000 through. I don't really know how to quantify that, though, maybe the difference in time * hourly rate?

2.) What kind of machines can be played?

-We went over this already. If none of the machines have a 100%+ theoretical return, then that would have to be considered as well as Variance, as has been mentioned.

-If the machines have a greater than 100% theoretical return AND the theoretical return exceeds 100% + the value of my comps, then I should be happy to pay face value for the Free Play.

3.) More subjective crap.

-How do I feel about this casino? Palms smells terrible, so that's going to detract from how much I am willing to pay for it. I really like Vintage Vegas at The D, so how much they'd have to knock off is basically see Item #1 on this list.

I don't know, it's a pretty loaded question. I would say that if there was a casino offering to sell $1,000 in Free Play for x amount, and the expected return of the $1,000 in Free Play was at least $1000, then I would purchase the Free Play for about $950, I think. $50 is the discount for being captive to the casino for whatever length of time.

Quote: Mission146

Here's the other thing, now that I really think about it:

We're kind of losing context of the original issue in discussing this because we have went from one thing into a question of, "How much would you pay someone else for the Free Play?" The problem is, the OP would have us paying the casino for the Free Play (which, again, I didn't realize initially, I just thought the question was how much was it worth).

Okay, so this opens up all kinds of questions.

1.) How much would I be putting in coin-in at this casino regardless of whether or not I bought Free Play from them?

-Basically, if I was definitely going to run at least $1,000 through in play, anyway, then anything less than $1,000 - (Comp value of $1,000 gambled in cash) is a good bargain. If one point is worth $0.01 and I get one point for every $5.00 gambled, absent any other comps, paying anything less than $998 for the $1,000 Free Play would be a good deal, regardless of what machine I intended to play.

-On the other hand, if I did not intend to put $1,000 coin-in (which is significantly less than $1,000, in all likelihood, when not paying it up front) in the first place, or had no idea how much coin I was putting in, then I might want a discount. I'm pretty much captive to some extent until I run the $1,000 through. I don't really know how to quantify that, though, maybe the difference in time * hourly rate?

2.) What kind of machines can be played?

-We went over this already. If none of the machines have a 100%+ theoretical return, then that would have to be considered as well as Variance, as has been mentioned.

-If the machines have a greater than 100% theoretical return AND the theoretical return exceeds 100% + the value of my comps, then I should be happy to pay face value for the Free Play.

3.) More subjective crap.

-How do I feel about this casino? Palms smells terrible, so that's going to detract from how much I am willing to pay for it. I really like Vintage Vegas at The D, so how much they'd have to knock off is basically see Item #1 on this list.

I don't know, it's a pretty loaded question. I would say that if there was a casino offering to sell $1,000 in Free Play for x amount, and the expected return of the $1,000 in Free Play was at least $1000, then I would purchase the Free Play for about $950, I think. $50 is the discount for being captive to the casino for whatever length of time.

One thing to consider is that if you use somebody's freeplay which will most likely be on their card, you won't get the credit for the coin-in such as cashback or a promotion which requires your card to be inserted, so running the money through would strictly be to cycle through and keep as much of it as possible.

I came up with the $50/hr figure, because playing it on something like DB or even worse DDB would destroy any profit imo if you run bad. Also factor in the 5% drop (I've ran 15-20% loss on JoB on a significant number of bets) and it'll come out to $900 for the freeplay. Of course if this was a lower amount, or spread throughout multiple cards that will be factored in as well. I prefer not to drive to GVR or Suncoast for a $50 freeplay at $40 cost because of the distance, or also a strip property since it requires too much driving through LV Blvd, parking, walking through malls in places like PH to get to the casino, play, cashout, then do it all over again. I spent a good amount of time when I first moved here picking up $10 here and there and it got old fast. Now I'll only drive out for $25min, or if there's a food comp that's worth the drive, such as Hard Rock or Ellis Island since I live so close from the area.

Also about buying freeplay at face value.... it wouldn't make any sense to do this even if you play at that casino, unless it's a good buddy of yours. You need to be properly compensated for exchanging cash for freeplay, such as paying less on giftcards because they are usable only at that store. They are taking the sure thing but the amount is less. Even with a +EV situation such as FPDW I would negotiate a discount since the return includes the royal which is improbable to hit unless you play a cycle.

Man you guys are making a mountain out of an anthill. Buying $1000 in free play is nothing more than saying "how much is that one grand worth to me as I play it through a machine right now"? There's no figuring out how much it could be worth as part of a larger bankroll for years to come. Why, what's that got to do with it? Anyone who pays more than $500 for it is nuts, and the free room part means nothing. The casino doesn't really care if you pay them $400 or $600 or $800 for it. They expect you'll keep giving them action after a once through, and most will. So just pay what it's worth: five hundred bucks.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

You could buy $40 Free play online for $20 for some casinos which offer it at certain sites, but only once per person and thought of as a marketing expense just to get people there. Iirc, I believe the Palms does it and some casinos in Florida. I am unaware of the site offhand or the restrictions.

The site is slotplaycoupons.com. As far as the Palms is concerned, it's 25$-for-40$ every 30 days for existing members. Free play only.

There aren't many casinos that participate, but states that have locations are: Arizona, California, Florida, Illinois, Lake Tahoe, Las Vegas. (Some of the deals are kind of meh-- like bundling in food credit... or admission?) Personally, I use it every month or so for Agua Caliente/Spa Resort in the Palms Springs area for 25$-for-40$ in non-negs. (Note: Their policy is inconsistent. Out of the ~40 times I've used this, I've been told twice that it's only available for free play.) Occasionally, you can find discounts off of that. (On Black Friday, they offered 5% off.) They also offer rebates for referrals, so if anybody's interested... =)

As far as the main topic is concerned: I personally consider a fair deal to be anything discounted, provided you were going to play that amount in the first place. I'd have no objection to paying 99% for, say, 500$ in chips since I'd run through that easily (Hey, 5$ is 5$.). I'd want a MUCH bigger discount if if was buying, say, 200k since I'd either be playing way out of my comfort range to get it back or spending the next week glued to a seat. (I'd say in the vicinity of 2/3rds or less.)

Quote: tournamentking

Man you guys are making a mountain out of an anthill. Buying $1000 in free play is nothing more than saying "how much is that one grand worth to me as I play it through a machine right now"? There's no figuring out how much it could be worth as part of a larger bankroll for years to come. Why, what's that got to do with it? Anyone who pays more than $500 for it is nuts, and the free room part means nothing. The casino doesn't really care if you pay them $400 or $600 or $800 for it. They expect you'll keep giving them action after a once through, and most will. So just pay what it's worth: five hundred bucks.

let me get this str8 ........You think, if you pay more then $500 for $1000 in free play your nuts?

MAJOR FAIL.

Once again, this adds to the many reasons people do not believe you are a real AP. Your advice is counter AP, and dangerous to anyone first starting out.

Quote: Venthus

The site is slotplaycoupons.com. As far as the Palms is concerned, it's 25$-for-40$ every 30 days for existing members. Free play only.

25 is 62.5% of 40, so that seems like an immediately good deal. Even if you wanted to assume an ER of 90% on the machine to be played, your ER would still be $36, so the cost of the Free Play is still less than 70% of the ER.

Assuming that one is going to gamble anyway, this is fundamentally no different than getting $15 in Free Play, straight up, for running $25 through the machine. The question as to whether or not one would want to take advantage of this simply boils down to whether or not $15 Free Play would be worth the individuals time if the individual were not already going to the casino in question, anyway.

If the individual would be going to the casino for one reason or another, they'd be crazy not to jump on this, if it's a legit site.

I am taking an NCL cruise. One of the things you can do in advance is buy casino play! And since NCL charges you a fee % if you take advances against your room charges (no other cruise line I have been on has done this), buying casino play in advance sounded attractive.
Turns out I can buy $40 in Casino play for .................. $40. But, you are only allowed to buy ONE . Guess they don't want you to get too much of an advantage on this deal.....

IT should come as no surprise that NCL and CET are linked........

I think I would pay 90% of the freeplay amount in most casinos. So the short answer to the question is $900 for me.

About 5% discount from the best returning game is fair. If the numbers are very large, then probably a 1-2% discount. Just depends on the size of the numbers.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I am taking an NCL cruise. One of the things you can do in advance is buy casino play! And since NCL charges you a fee % if you take advances against your room charges (no other cruise line I have been on has done this), buying casino play in advance sounded attractive.
Turns out I can buy $40 in Casino play for .................. $40. But, you are only allowed to buy ONE . Guess they don't want you to get too much of an advantage on this deal.....

IT should come as no surprise that NCL and CET are linked........

I think they are missing a huge marketing opportunity here. Why not sell $50 in play for $40 or $45?
First off, on a cruise, so few people would play perfect strategy on any game that they should not fear this being an AP drain.
Secondly, many people may say what the heck, I am ahead by buying this play. And some of these people may not have had any intention of stepping into the casino, so that is way more action for the casino.
Finally, some of those people who do play through their $50 will get sucked in and drop even more money into the games.

And with a captive audience, you can set your paytables as awful as you want. I think I read a post a while back where the best VP paytable on their cruise was something like 91% at 5$denom.

Quote: AxelWolf

let me get this str8 ........You think, if you pay more then $500 for $1000 in free play your nuts?

MAJOR FAIL.

Once again, this adds to the many reasons people do not believe you are a real AP. Your advice is counter AP, and dangerous to anyone first starting out.

Axel, you haven't a clue. Anyone who pays more than $500 is wasting their money. You insist on attributing some theoretical amount through infinity to something that will last 30 minutes at best, and then it will be over forever. It doesn't matter to me who believes what about me. I make money and I know how to make money from casinos. From what I've seen, you need to ask others to play for you in order to make anything at all. And yes, I have a much nicer and faster car than you do.

$750 for $1000 in free play would be a good deal at any casino with video poker in Nevada.

Quote: tournamentking

Axel, you haven't a clue. Anyone who pays more than $500 is wasting their money. You insist on attributing some theoretical amount through infinity to something that will last 30 minutes at best, and then it will be over forever. It doesn't matter to me who believes what about me. I make money and I know how to make money from casinos. From what I've seen, you need to ask others to play for you in order to make anything at all. And yes, I have a much nicer and faster car than you do.

Wow, can't believe that just came out of your keyboard. So, let me get this straight, if I were to put $1000 of play through a machine (for the sake of arguement, let's make it a lousy 90% return), I'd be 'wasting money' (according to you) to buy $1000 worth of free play for $600 vs. put $1000 of cash in the machine?

Huh?

Quote: tournamentking

And yes, I have a much nicer and faster car than you do.

That is hilarious.

Quote: tournamentking

Axel, you haven't a clue. Anyone who pays more than $500 is wasting their money. You insist on attributing some theoretical amount through infinity to something that will last 30 minutes at best, and then it will be over forever. It doesn't matter to me who believes what about me. I make money and I know how to make money from casinos. From what I've seen, you need to ask others to play for you in order to make anything at all. And yes, I have a much nicer and faster car than you do.

You telling Axelwolf that he doesn't have a clue is like a McDonald's burger flipper, who has been on the job for a month, telling Gordon frigging Ramsay that his food blows.

Listen, do me a favor, where are you from and where do you gamble...only if you are comfortable answering? If you gamble in Vegas, and get a reasonable amount of Free Play at any of the Vegas casinos, let me know and I will give you 51% of the face value of the Free Play when I visit and we'll both think we are getting an awesome deal!

Please enlighten me as to how you make money from casinos. Did your method start with the words, "I'd like an application, please?"

One of you ought to try this: the next time you have a free play coupon (the amount doesn't matter) walk up to anyone in the casino or ask any player at a machine next to you... "how much cash would you give me for this?"

Most people in a casino will not stop and think about the math of any game, or the return of any game. They will look at the free play (let's say its $20) and say to themselves something like "I was going to put $20 into that slot machine... maybe now I can spend $10 to get that $20?"

This is really how "market values" are determined. In part it's math, and in part it's "the greater fool theory" at work.

What I would like to see is a report from multiple forum members on the percentages they were offered. You are not obligated to make the sale because you are only asking "how much cash would you give me for this?"

Then after you have the offers, let us know which offer made sense to you and you would take?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Most people in a casino will not stop and think about the math of any game, or the return of any game. They will look at the free play (let's say its $20) and say to themselves something like "I was going to put $20 into that slot machine... maybe now I can spend $10 to get that $20?"

This is really how "market values" are determined. In part it's math, and in part it's "the greater fool theory" at work.

That's absolutely right, and it's also prospective based on individual perspective. It's basically an investment, like stocks, where a buyer/seller determine what they think is a good price based on what the company will do. People who are not knowledgeable gamblers probably won't understand expected value, what they do understand is that they put $20 and usually lose $20 failing to hit $100, or $1,000, or whatever the goal is...so $20 Free Play doesn't result in a certain expected value, as far as they are concerned, it just keeps them playing longer and gives them a few more chances, so the $10 offer is based on that.

You also would take the overall amount into consideration, though, even when dealing with knowledgeable gamblers and advantage players. If someone has $20 Free Play that they won't be able to collect, and another person would be going to the casino anyway, then $10 is probably a fair offer because the expected profit on the Free Play isn't very much and the first person couldn't use it. If the question is the same, but the amount is $1,000 Free Play, I imagine (if, for some reason, the person couldn't make it for that) that the person would take $500, begrudgingly, if they couldn't find anything else, but typically, would try to find a different buyer.

Anyway, if we're going to make, "Fair value," subjective, then it is wherever buyer and seller agree. If we are to make it objective, then the fair value is just whatever the best game-based expected return is.

Quote: Mission146

You also would take the overall amount into consideration, though, even when dealing with knowledgeable gamblers and advantage players. If someone has $20 Free Play that they won't be able to collect, and another person would be going to the casino anyway, then $10 is probably a fair offer because the expected profit on the Free Play isn't very much and the first person couldn't use it. If the question is the same, but the amount is $1,000 Free Play, I imagine (if, for some reason, the person couldn't make it for that) that the person would take $500, begrudgingly, if they couldn't find anything else, but typically, would try to find a different buyer.

Freeplay is being sold everyday for about the price you suggest. I know one professional gambler, livepoker/video poker, who lives in Ohio. And he spends a lot of time duck hunting in Arkansas in the winter. He gets big chunks of freeplay, $400 to $1000, in Las Vegas and Reno. He has a local pro in each town running off his freeplay for half the win.

Quote: mickeycrimm

Freeplay is being sold everyday for about the price you suggest. I know one professional gambler, livepoker/video poker, who lives in Ohio. And he spends a lot of time duck hunting in Arkansas in the winter. He gets big chunks of freeplay, $400 to $1000, in Las Vegas and Reno. He has a local pro in each town running off his freeplay for half the win.

At Rincon you can use someone else's free play that is loaded into their account you have their card and PIN.

What casinos in Vegas have the same system? When I play at Caesars you have to show up at the cage with your card and ID to claim the free play coupons.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I am taking an NCL cruise. One of the things you can do in advance is buy casino play! And since NCL charges you a fee % if you take advances against your room charges (no other cruise line I have been on has done this), buying casino play in advance sounded attractive.
Turns out I can buy $40 in Casino play for .................. $40. But, you are only allowed to buy ONE . Guess they don't want you to get too much of an advantage on this deal.....

IT should come as no surprise that NCL and CET are linked........

They totally did not charge me a fee against room charges for markers. It was a free service that I settled up each day at the purser's desk. They must have some discretion, Raleigh. (This was the Epic transatlantic last April)

Quote: onenickelmiracle

1)
If the casino sold $1000 free play, what would a fair price be?

Caesar's sells comps (sort of) on their Facebook game. Want to know their ridiculous price? You can "earn" 150 rewards credits for spending $100 on virtual chips to play their casino games for fun (sort of).

I'd pay up to $500 for $1000 in free play, depending on the quality of the casino. Not sure about the room.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: RaleighCraps

I am taking an NCL cruise. One of the things you can do in advance is buy casino play! And since NCL charges you a fee % if you take advances against your room charges (no other cruise line I have been on has done this), buying casino play in advance sounded attractive.
Turns out I can buy $40 in Casino play for .................. $40. But, you are only allowed to buy ONE . Guess they don't want you to get too much of an advantage on this deal.....

IT should come as no surprise that NCL and CET are linked........

They totally did not charge me a fee against room charges for markers. It was a free service that I settled up each day at the purser's desk. They must have some discretion, Raleigh. (This was the Epic transatlantic last April)

Thanks babs. PM sent

Give me $10k of freeplay for $9500 all day every day and I'll feed you $100's so fast your head will spin.
In fact I will write you an IOU based on the freeplay ticket you give me when I run out of money. By the time I'm a millionaire playing through them I'll resell them to a grinder for $9600 and live off the fat.

Quote: AlanMendelson

At Rincon you can use someone else's free play that is loaded into their account you have their card and PIN.

That's the way its done, Alan. One person passes off his card and pin number to another person. Someone having to go to a booth doesn't work.