Thread Rating:

Tomspur
Tomspur
  • Threads: 28
  • Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
November 21st, 2013 at 5:11:29 PM permalink
I can't comment for Caesars but, for the most part, that call is made due to accounting restrictions. You can make the same argument about a $10 or $15 table being changed to a quarter table at a certain time and most people leaving due to it being out of their comfort zones.

Casinos seem to think that, the higher the limits, the more people will drop to play. The accountants tell the casino managers that tables gams need to be set at a certain limit so that the particular table in question can make money. if the minimum is set too low the accountants tell the casino manager that the particular table is running at a loss due to the dealer pay, floor person salary, proprietary fees (if applicable) and so on.

I have had this conversation with a million casino managers and all of them have told me exactly the same thing....we have NO say in the matter.

So my question to them has always been......What would you prefer, 10% hold of $1,000 or 12% hold of $100 (as an example of course).

My opinion is that casinos are concentrating on the 5 big players they get on a daily basis or perhaps 20 big players on the weekends and they completey forget about the 500 people walking by the higher limit tables with $200 in their pockets saying, "ah screw it, I'll go have dinner and go home".

Its not rocket science but the fact that casino people don't run casinos anymore makes it very difficult for these gusy to do their jobs.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
aceofspades
aceofspades
  • Threads: 366
  • Posts: 6506
Joined: Apr 4, 2012
November 21st, 2013 at 5:18:35 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

I can't comment for Caesars but, for the most part, that call is made due to accounting restrictions. You can make the same argument about a $10 or $15 table being changed to a quarter table at a certain time and most people leaving due to it being out of their comfort zones.

Casinos seem to think that, the higher the limits, the more people will drop to play. The accountants tell the casino managers that tables gams need to be set at a certain limit so that the particular table in question can make money. if the minimum is set too low the accountants tell the casino manager that the particular table is running at a loss due to the dealer pay, floor person salary, proprietary fees (if applicable) and so on.

I have had this conversation with a million casino managers and all of them have told me exactly the same thing....we have NO say in the matter.

So my question to them has always been......What would you prefer, 10% hold of $1,000 or 12% hold of $100 (as an example of course).

My opinion is that casinos are concentrating on the 5 big players they get on a daily basis or perhaps 20 big players on the weekends and they completey forget about the 500 people walking by the higher limit tables with $200 in their pockets saying, "ah screw it, I'll go have dinner and go home".

Its not rocket science but the fact that casino people don't run casinos anymore makes it very difficult for these gusy to do their jobs.



It is idiotic. The casino was choosing zero hold.
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3808
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
November 21st, 2013 at 5:31:49 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

I can't comment for Caesars but, for the most part, that call is made due to accounting restrictions. You can make the same argument about a $10 or $15 table being changed to a quarter table at a certain time and most people leaving due to it being out of their comfort zones.

Casinos seem to think that, the higher the limits, the more people will drop to play. The accountants tell the casino managers that tables gams need to be set at a certain limit so that the particular table in question can make money. if the minimum is set too low the accountants tell the casino manager that the particular table is running at a loss due to the dealer pay, floor person salary, proprietary fees (if applicable) and so on.

I have had this conversation with a million casino managers and all of them have told me exactly the same thing....we have NO say in the matter.

So my question to them has always been......What would you prefer, 10% hold of $1,000 or 12% hold of $100 (as an example of course).

My opinion is that casinos are concentrating on the 5 big players they get on a daily basis or perhaps 20 big players on the weekends and they completey forget about the 500 people walking by the higher limit tables with $200 in their pockets saying, "ah screw it, I'll go have dinner and go home".

Its not rocket science but the fact that casino people don't run casinos anymore makes it very difficult for these gusy to do their jobs.



The casino managers (more likely Table Games Shift Manager or just Pit Manager) are not telling you the truth. They are passing the buck to keep you off of them. Some idiot is making idiot decicions because they've heard or been told they should have higher limits at night or on weekends.

Some people have no brains to be able to balance what they've been taught and when to apply it in real time. A lot of incompetent people in positions they can't handle. This Is the case in other businesses as well, not just Casinos.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Tomspur
Tomspur
  • Threads: 28
  • Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
November 21st, 2013 at 5:36:58 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

The casino managers (more likely Table Games Shift Manager or just Pit Manager) are not telling you the truth. They are passing the buck to keep you off of them. Some idiot is making idiot decicions because they've heard or been told they should have higher limits at night or on weekends.

Some people have no brains to be able to balance what they've been taught and when to apply it in real time. A lot of incompetent people in positions they can't handle. This Is the case in other businesses as well, not just Casinos.

ZCore13



Well I was kinda trying to be nice to the people with whom I work. I have said it for the longest time now, we don't have casino people anymore we have people worried about their performance bonusses and keeping their jobs, thats it. Where are the days when Benny Binion and years later Jr, walked around the pits, hiring and firing people all day long. If you were doing a good job and was taking care of the guests you could name your price but boy oh boy if you were a lout, he would simply tap you out and tell you to pick up your money and go. No HR nonsense to think of.

Now casinos are a corporate trap is all, nothing more, nothing less.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 28576
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
November 21st, 2013 at 6:26:19 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur


Now casinos are a corporate trap is all, nothing more, nothing less.



That's what I keep saying. Every aspect of the business
is cut throat now, it's all about the bottom line. It's like a
factory before they went union. The owners knew the
names of all the employee's, they would walk the floor
and talk to people. There was a company picnic every
year. If you had problems they would work with you.
Then comes the union, all and that goes away. Now people
hate their jobs, they hate the company, but they got
their precious union.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3808
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
November 21st, 2013 at 6:30:43 PM permalink
Not all casinos are like that. You might be covering many Las Vegas Casinos with that description, but that's not how they all run outside of Las Vegas.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Tomspur
Tomspur
  • Threads: 28
  • Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
November 21st, 2013 at 6:33:06 PM permalink
Now people
hate their jobs, they hate the company, but they got
their precious union.



Yeah I don't know much about corporations in the Us but I do know the Unions are not a good deal, not in their current form, not what theya re doing in Vegas to the Casino industry.

I'm very sad when I see things like what happened at Cosmopolitan with regards to the sit ins by the Culinary union employees.......

But still there are employees daily voting to be unionised. They must be doing something right to attract all these employees or are they praying on the intellectually challenged?
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Tomspur
Tomspur
  • Threads: 28
  • Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
November 21st, 2013 at 6:33:43 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Not all casinos are like that. You might be covering many Las Vegas Casinos with that description, but that's not how they all run outside of Las Vegas.


ZCore13



Perhaps only the ones who are truly "corporations"?
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Buzzard
Buzzard
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 6814
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
November 21st, 2013 at 6:36:04 PM permalink
" But still there are employees daily voting to be unionised. They must be doing something right to attract all these employees "

Usually that something is higher wages and not worrying every time you get a new boss that your job is in jeopardy. But I do have to admit too many unions leaders nowadays are in the union business and never walked a picket line in their life.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
November 22nd, 2013 at 6:18:59 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

The casino managers (more likely Table Games Shift Manager or just Pit Manager) are not telling you the truth. They are passing the buck to keep you off of them. Some idiot is making idiot decicions because they've heard or been told they should have higher limits at night or on weekends.

Some people have no brains to be able to balance what they've been taught and when to apply it in real time. A lot of incompetent people in positions they can't handle. This Is the case in other businesses as well, not just Casinos.

ZCore13



I wish I had some casino experience, because I think I'd be more competent than that in making those kind of decisions. It's simple demand-based revenue management, nothing more or less. Table minimums are a price, not a fixed price because the game itself is variable, but the House Edge is the price you pay to play...when there's no demand at the current price, you must lower the price, which is the table minimum!

This is the case in all situations, unless you have a player who will simply go and play the slots and show enough slots action that the average slot machine hold * expected action is in excess of what you expect the hold * table minimum * hands played such that the house will make more money on the slots action than dropping the minimum on the table game.

So, you pretend you're calling upstairs, get on the computer, and see if these players hit the slots at all. If it is going to be lower the minimum or they'll play nothing at all, or even worse, take their action somewhere else, you lower the minimum. If you know they'll simply give the slots some pretty decent action instead, go ahead and refuse to lower the minimums, the machines will make more money.

But, ALWAYS grandfather players who are already playing. That's just good customer service, for God's sake!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
aceofspades
aceofspades
  • Threads: 366
  • Posts: 6506
Joined: Apr 4, 2012
November 22nd, 2013 at 8:31:57 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

when there's no demand at the current price, you must lower the price, which is the table minimum!


But, ALWAYS grandfather players who are already playing. That's just good customer service, for God's sake!




EXACTAMUNDO!!!
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
November 22nd, 2013 at 8:34:44 AM permalink
Heck, sometimes these people wearing suits don't have the authority to do anything anyway and often don't have the inclination to do anything.

The suits know you'll most likely stay in the casino and spend money somewhere, even if its at the bar cursing the suit and at the gift shop buying voodoo dolls. So they might as well just raise the limit and ignore those who want anything kept low. Look at how it happens sometimes...its obviously being done by the clock, not the crowd. Some memo tells them about raising the limits at a certain time.

Look at casino dealer scheduling: you've all seen crowds wandering about and suddenly descending on what is usually a not too popular game. You've all been at a craps table which is usually a relaxed slow game but one night gets to be a crowded frenetic game. The casino can't really predict what is going to happen or they wouldn't have so many dead tables. They want to be like the airlines and raise prices but some players will simply leave.
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
November 22nd, 2013 at 9:15:33 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Heck, sometimes these people wearing suits don't have the authority to do anything anyway and often don't have the inclination to do anything.

The suits know you'll most likely stay in the casino and spend money somewhere, even if its at the bar cursing the suit and at the gift shop buying voodoo dolls. So they might as well just raise the limit and ignore those who want anything kept low. Look at how it happens sometimes...its obviously being done by the clock, not the crowd. Some memo tells them about raising the limits at a certain time.



That seems more like a competition-based decision. If you're in an area such as LV or AC and it's simply a matter of a short walk to go to a different casino, then that is what many of these people are going to do. If you have someone staying at your casino for a period of a few days, but you see there are a few weekend days/evenings in which they are staying, but giving you no action at all, and the minimums are higher than they usually play at those times, then you can bet that is what is happening.

If you're in an area with less competition, then that makes things a bit different, I'd imagine. Perhaps they will go to the lounge and have a drink, eventually begrudgingly returning to play the game at a higher limit. But, where do they live? Are you the nearest comparable house by a long shot?

Here's an example, look at Wheeling Island v. The Meadows, now imagine you have someone who lives basically equidistant from those two places, call it Dallas Pike, or somewhere like that. Now, there's no question that The Meadows is a nicer casino, so if you have this kind of situation (and you're Wheeling Island) nobody is playing Roulette and this person wants to play but wants you to drop it from $10 to $5...it's almost always $5 anyway.

This guy can play $10 Roulette at The Meadows, he's not at Wheeling Island for the décor compared to Meadows, tell you that right now, he's there for the minimums. You don't drop those minimums, especially if he's the only one wanting to play and you have to pay a Croupier anyway, maybe he goes to The Meadows next time around. If he MUST play at a $10 minimum, and it's his only game, might as well do it a nicer place.

I mean, everything is situational, but you look at a place situated like Revel (which I assume AoS is talking about) you drop those minimums. $200 as opposed to $100, your casino absolutely sucks and you're getting $100/hand minimums, take the $100.

Quote:

Look at casino dealer scheduling: you've all seen crowds wandering about and suddenly descending on what is usually a not too popular game. You've all been at a craps table which is usually a relaxed slow game but one night gets to be a crowded frenetic game. The casino can't really predict what is going to happen or they wouldn't have so many dead tables. They want to be like the airlines and raise prices but some players will simply leave.



That's absolutely right, all things situational.

My going rate on a certain night might be $100 on a room. You have some guy that comes in with $50 at 3:00 in the morning, I have three rooms left, he's alone...he won't make noise, he won't cause trouble, he probably won't eat any continental breakfast...just wants a nap before he gets back on the road.

Think I'm not taking that $50 he's willing to trade for a nap. You can bet your bottom dollar that I'm taking that fifty dollars, and you'd have a 100% probability of winning that bet.

But, am I taking that $50 with three rooms available at 6:00p.m.? Absolutely not.

All things situational. Be willing to adjust. Think on your feet. Make money.

/rant
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
NokTang
NokTang
  • Threads: 56
  • Posts: 1314
Joined: Aug 15, 2011
November 22nd, 2013 at 11:47:24 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146


My going rate on a certain night might be $100 on a room. You have some guy that comes in with $50 at 3:00 in the morning, I have three rooms left, he's alone...he won't make noise, he won't cause trouble, he probably won't eat any continental breakfast...just wants a nap before he gets back on the road.

Think I'm not taking that $50 he's willing to trade for a nap. You can bet your bottom dollar that I'm taking that fifty dollars, and you'd have a 100% probability of winning that bet.



That isn't often the decision of the person working the desk at 3am, in a "small" motel especially.

Regardless, we call that a "short time" hotel over here in Asia. You can check in at 6pm but you must check out at 9pm. Likewise at 3am. Two or three hours. Not eight or nine hours for the half price on the room. You left out the part that the guy will most likely sleep in late using your electricity and keeping the maid staff late costing you overtime etc..
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
November 23rd, 2013 at 6:59:13 AM permalink
Quote: NokTang

That isn't often the decision of the person working the desk at 3am, in a "small" motel especially.

Regardless, we call that a "short time" hotel over here in Asia. You can check in at 6pm but you must check out at 9pm. Likewise at 3am. Two or three hours. Not eight or nine hours for the half price on the room. You left out the part that the guy will most likely sleep in late using your electricity and keeping the maid staff late costing you overtime etc..



Not going to keep the housekeepers late, I'll give him a late check out of 1:00p.m., have to show some empathy.

$50 is $50 > $0!!!

I don't rent to that guy, I get $0 for the room that night!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
NokTang
NokTang
  • Threads: 56
  • Posts: 1314
Joined: Aug 15, 2011
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:22:32 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146


$50 is $50 > $0!!!

I don't rent to that guy, I get $0 for the room that night!



and sooner rather than later, everyone will "demand" the $50.usd rate......these things have been thought through and the test of time has made the rules....If I guaranty a room with a "late" arrival of midnight, then my flight is delayed three hours and I show up at the desk at 3am, stand waiting and tired and a bit upset at being so late, to then see a guy given a room at half what I paid.....well you get the point. It doesn't work in the U.S.A..
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3808
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:29:22 PM permalink
I totally disagree. You paid to reserve a room so it was guaranteed whenever you got there. You can take a chance and see if a room is available if you want and get a lesser rate based on supply and demand when you get there. You chose convenience and guarantee.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
speedycrap
speedycrap
  • Threads: 46
  • Posts: 1305
Joined: Oct 13, 2013
November 23rd, 2013 at 9:00:19 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I totally disagree. You paid to reserve a room so it was guaranteed whenever you got there. You can take a chance and see if a room is available if you want and get a lesser rate based on supply and demand when you get there. You chose convenience and guarantee.

ZCore13


You are right on the mark!!!!!
GWAE
GWAE
  • Threads: 93
  • Posts: 9854
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
November 23rd, 2013 at 9:21:15 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

That seems more like a competition-based decision. If you're in an area such as LV or AC and it's simply a matter of a short walk to go to a different casino, then that is what many of these people are going to do. If you have someone staying at your casino for a period of a few days, but you see there are a few weekend days/evenings in which they are staying, but giving you no action at all, and the minimums are higher than they usually play at those times, then you can bet that is what is happening.

If you're in an area with less competition, then that makes things a bit different, I'd imagine. Perhaps they will go to the lounge and have a drink, eventually begrudgingly returning to play the game at a higher limit. But, where do they live? Are you the nearest comparable house by a long shot?

Here's an example, look at Wheeling Island v. The Meadows, now imagine you have someone who lives basically equidistant from those two places, call it Dallas Pike, or somewhere like that. Now, there's no question that The Meadows is a nicer casino, so if you have this kind of situation (and you're Wheeling Island) nobody is playing Roulette and this person wants to play but wants you to drop it from $10 to $5...it's almost always $5 anyway.

This guy can play $10 Roulette at The Meadows, he's not at Wheeling Island for the décor compared to Meadows, tell you that right now, he's there for the minimums. You don't drop those minimums, especially if he's the only one wanting to play and you have to pay a Croupier anyway, maybe he goes to The Meadows next time around. If he MUST play at a $10 minimum, and it's his only game, might as well do it a nicer place.

I mean, everything is situational, but you look at a place situated like Revel (which I assume AoS is talking about) you drop those minimums. $200 as opposed to $100, your casino absolutely sucks and you're getting $100/hand minimums, take the $100.



That's absolutely right, all things situational.

My going rate on a certain night might be $100 on a room. You have some guy that comes in with $50 at 3:00 in the morning, I have three rooms left, he's alone...he won't make noise, he won't cause trouble, he probably won't eat any continental breakfast...just wants a nap before he gets back on the road.

Think I'm not taking that $50 he's willing to trade for a nap. You can bet your bottom dollar that I'm taking that fifty dollars, and you'd have a 100% probability of winning that bet.

But, am I taking that $50 with three rooms available at 6:00p.m.? Absolutely not.

All things situational. Be willing to adjust. Think on your feet. Make money.

/rant



Tonight at the meadows the following happened.

My wife and I were playing at a $5 craps table. There were 5 craps tables open and 2 of them were $5 and other 3 were $10. Around 9pm the floor came over and changed the min to $10. Now there were 1 $15, 3 $10, and 1 $5. He told everyone at the table that we were grandfathered in as long as we were there. At 1030 another guy came over and said that the grandfather was ending at 11pm and everyone had to play at $10. The 6 of us balked at it and said it made no sense since none of the tables were full including the other $5 table. He said tough, and shortly after all 6 of us walked from the table. My wife is pregnant so we didn't want to play at the other $5 table because it was in the smoking section. So this floor person lost the action of 6 people because of a $5 difference. My wife and I went and had dessert and on the way out we walked by the new $10 table that had 1 person on it.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
November 23rd, 2013 at 10:55:30 PM permalink
Quote: NokTang

and sooner rather than later, everyone will "demand" the $50.usd rate......these things have been thought through and the test of time has made the rules....If I guaranty a room with a "late" arrival of midnight, then my flight is delayed three hours and I show up at the desk at 3am, stand waiting and tired and a bit upset at being so late, to then see a guy given a room at half what I paid.....well you get the point. It doesn't work in the U.S.A..



Demanding and getting are two different things, and usually, I'll ask someone to keep the rate just between us.

Furthermore, I wouldn't set someone up with a deal like that when anyone else is within earshot. Like I said, everything is situational, one of the last things I need is for any of my weeklies to know there is a nightly paying significantly less for the night than they are.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
November 23rd, 2013 at 11:05:32 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Tonight at the meadows the following happened.

My wife and I were playing at a $5 craps table. There were 5 craps tables open and 2 of them were $5 and other 3 were $10. Around 9pm the floor came over and changed the min to $10. Now there were 1 $15, 3 $10, and 1 $5. He told everyone at the table that we were grandfathered in as long as we were there. At 1030 another guy came over and said that the grandfather was ending at 11pm and everyone had to play at $10. The 6 of us balked at it and said it made no sense since none of the tables were full including the other $5 table. He said tough, and shortly after all 6 of us walked from the table. My wife is pregnant so we didn't want to play at the other $5 table because it was in the smoking section. So this floor person lost the action of 6 people because of a $5 difference. My wife and I went and had dessert and on the way out we walked by the new $10 table that had 1 person on it.



See you guys at Wheeling Island one day, sorry about the smoking at WI, though!

I don't know what their problem over at The Meadows is, they're a Locals casino in denial because they are marginally nicer than the two nearest Locals casinos. (Mountaineer and Wheeling Island) In the few times I've been there, the staff has usually behaved as though the place is some kind of world class resort and us table minimum bettors are peons who should get down on the ground and grovel at their feet in gratitude for them deigning to even let us be there...and that's how you get treated if you tip well!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
  • Jump to: