Math Challenged Kids

My daughter just got done with the spring semester
at her college and as usual, all the emails come rushing
in from the kids that failed her math classes. They want
to know what they can do to raise their grade. She sends
them a form letter to take the class again and do the work.
She says it gets worse every year.

On that note, I went to the chain grocery store this evening
near my house and saw a sign in the meat dept that said
buy 2 packages of Polish sausage, get 2 free. $4.29 each,
save $12.87. I immediately knew that was wrong and called
over the young assistant meat manager. He looked and looked
at it and could see nothing amiss. So I got the store assistant
manager to come over.

I took 2 packages in my hand and said these add up to $8.58,
I get 2 free, how much am I saving? She stared and stared
at the card with the sales info and I finally said I save $8.58,
right? Spend $8.58, save $8.58. Why does it say I save $12.87?

She stared some more and said "Its a typo." I replied, no, its a
math error, not a typo. You've had people all day long thinking
they were saving $12.87 and they weren't. I want to save $12.87
like the sign says, what can you do about it.

She stared and stared and stared, obviously a 23 year old kid who
can't even add and subtract. I'm sure she has a degree too, they
only make you a manager if you have a degree. "Well, if you buy
2 I have to give you 4 free, so I'll do that just this once."

I said are you sure that's right and she said yes, it was right. Who am
I to argue when a dealer makes a mistake, I bought 2 and got 4 free,
which of course was another store error.

Who are these kids when an old fart like me can see immediately that it
was wrong and they, with their bright shiny brains and degree's can't
see anything. And how did it go by all the customers today, with nobody
complaining. Oy..

Quote: EvenBob

My daughter just got done with the spring semester
at her college and as usual, all the emails come rushing
in from the kids that failed her math classes. They want
to know what they can do to raise their grade. She sends
them a form letter to take the class again and do the work.
She says it gets worse every year.

On that note, I went to the chain grocery store this evening
near my house and saw a sign in the meat dept that said
buy 2 packages of Polish sausage, get 2 free. $4.29 each,
save $12.87. I immediately knew that was wrong and called
over the young assistant meat manager. He looked and looked
at it and could see nothing amiss. So I got the store assistant
manager to come over.

I took 2 packages in my hand and said these add up to $8.58,
I get 2 free, how much am I saving? She stared and stared
at the card with the sales info and I finally said I save $8.58,
right? Spend $8.58, save $8.58. Why does it say I save $12.87?

She stared some more and said "Its a typo." I replied, no, its a
math error, not a typo. You've had people all day long thinking
they were saving $12.87 and they weren't. I want to save $12.87
like the sign says, what can you do about it.

She stared and stared and stared, obviously a 23 year old kid who
can't even add and subtract. I'm sure she has a degree too, they
only make you a manager if you have a degree. "Well, if you buy
2 I have to give you 4 free, so I'll do that just this once."

I said are you sure that's right and she said yes, it was right. Who am
I to argue when a dealer makes a mistake, I bought 2 and got 4 free,
which of course was another store error.

Who are these kids when an old fart like me can see immediately that it
was wrong and they, with their bright shiny brains and degree's can't
see anything. And how did it go by all the customers today, with nobody
complaining. Oy..

Hey, we're near western Michigan tonight, when you cooking up the sausage?

I do quick mental math when there's some numbers that needed to be added/subtracted/whatever at school and at work, and people are amazed at how fast I can do this. The problem is the math isn't that hard, like adding $5.08 and $12.35, finding 15% of 30, etc. Playing poker and figuring out edges in gambling leads me to figure out percentage rates, but shouldn't normal people know how to add dollar amounts?

That brings me to attendance in school. I can't believe instructors grade attendance. You paid for the classes, isn't that incentive enough to show up to class to pass? I never understood this concept.

Along these lines, one of my biggest pet peeves is the general misuse of the "cent" sign (eg Verizon math). People seem shocked when I hand them a penny for four .25 cent items.

At my local grocer, if they have an item and it's keyed at the wrong price, you get one of the items for free. For example, I bought asparagus last week and they keyed it at $3.99/pound when it should have been $2.97 for the bunch, and they gave me the asparagus for free. (I could post the receipt to prove it, of course!)

In your case, with the store policy in effect, you should have gotten 3 free (to save $12.87) and then not have to have paid for one of the packages. (ie, pay for one, and get 5). In your case you got four free, but you paid for 2, which you would have had to do to get the deal.

It's a good correction for them. You found it, and you deserve the deal.

Everyone has their pet peeves. I think what bothers me even more than math challenged kids are the kids who don't know how to spell. The misuse of

they're, there, and their
it's and its
lose and loose

among others, just drive me crazy sometimes.

Dam...I make all of those mistakes.

Quote: AxelWolf

Dam...I make all of those mistakes.

LOL

Yesterday, I went to the movies and bought popcorn for $6.00. I gave the girl $11.00 and got a somewhat lengthy deer-in-the-headlights look.

Plain and simple, education is flawed in America. I think the problem is we want EVERYONE to have an education. Some people should drop out in 8th grade like they did a hundred years ago. I don't care how insensitive that sounds.

The other thing is we don't know HOW to teach math and reading and science. Learning about the scientific method was beyond boring in middle school. By college, it became interesting. Advanced mathematics, which I think young children should be able to grasp isn't taught to 95% of the population, just college kids. Instead, memorize a bunch of boring formulas, never to be used again.

To this day I feel bitter about my education from time to time. High school doesn't really prepare you for college OR the real world.

Is your word wrap malfunctioning? On my device it looks full column.

This has been a issue for years. When calcators got cheap people stopped doing times tables and long division. It got worse from there.
Algebra is taught bad I. The USA because those who teach it never used it except to teach. Never did a teacher explain when you might use it in the real world. It was always "so you can pass x next year."

Just today I noticed the same error we are getting I. Forms is always divisible by 12 so I think it is adding something to every month incorrectly. If anyone else notices or cares remains to be seen.

Don't worry. We have decided to out-source math and science to India, and China. They will bail us out.

Quote: djatc

That brings me to attendance in school. I can't believe instructors grade attendance. You paid for the classes, isn't that incentive enough to show up to class to pass? I never understood this concept.

In colleges and universities, many students believe that since they are paying for the class, they should be able to decide if they want to attend any particular session. However, some institutions have performed "studies" (not sure if they were done scientifically) which show that students who don't attend class have a higher failure rate than those that do. Institutions are detrimentally affected (read: their financial gains are lower) when students fail. Thus, to promote better education (read: ensure their financial gains), they create attendance policies.

I sometimes wonder if companies like to take advantage of the fact that people tend to be math-deficient. Like in the OP, did someone really do bad math, or did they inflate the savings number because they knew people can't do math and would think they are saving more money than they really are? I remember being at Walgreens near Halloween one year. The large bag of candy was $5. The small bag of candy was $2. The small bag being half the size of the big bag. Of course, they were nearly sold out of the big bags. In another example, I was recently at a chicken based fast food place. They had the following specials: 10 boneless wings for $6.29. 3 boneless wings for $1.39. I asked the manager why 9 boneless wings were 46 cents each, and the 10th boneless wing was $2.12. He didn't get it. But he also wasn't responsible for making the pricing. Obviously, someone in the corporation knows full well that the 10 boneless wings price is very disproportionate. But they also know that people won't do the math, and will just order it. Thus creating extra income for the company.

The wing thing could also be intentional so as to get you to notice it. Smart marketers do stuff like that from time to time

Yes it's the same sad story in the UK with the supermarkets seemingly capable of creating the best apparent "bargains". I've also almost given in trying to pay, say 5.09 for a 3.99 item.

It's not just the math; the entire realm of logic seems to have disappeared.

Late last week, I had to evict a problem tenant who owed me a bunch of money and apparently owed a lot of others, including the utility companies. Water had been turned off, but electricity and natural gas were still connected.

Once the house was back under my control I had the water turned on as quickly as I could make that happen. This morning, I called the other utilities to have services changed back to my name. I had a surprising conversation with the rep from the electric company.

She said that the tenant had not contacted them to have service discontinued, and I said they weren't likely to hear anything or ever get paid another cent from the deadbeat. She said that if I wanted, I could initiate the change of service to myself, for a fee of $20. I asked what would happen if I didn't do that. She said that if the departed tenant didn't pay the bills, they would be disconnecting the service eventually. Then I could call them to have it reconnected. There would not be any charge to me for that.

Consider the possibilities: One option is for them to keep service going in the tenant's name (the air conditioning is running to keep the humidity/mold down) until there are larger unpaid amounts, then send a service person out twice to disconnect and later reconnect. There is no charge to me for that, so it seems that is fine with the electric company.

The other option is to change service right away to my name, not send anyone to the house at all, and get paid for all of the electricity that is used from now on. If I am willing to save them that money (bills for future service, which my former tenant wouldn't and shouldn't pay) and labor (two trips to the house), then they think I should pay them a fee on top of it.

I went through that about three times with the rep, asking her whether that policy made sense to her. Finally, I asked whether she really thought her company would prefer to have the bills not paid and have to send the truck out twice and if she was confident enough of that that she wanted to give me financial motivation not to change things now.

She checked with her supervisor and then told me that they would not charge me the $20 fee.

Quote: Doc

There is no charge to me for that, so it seems that is fine with the electric company.
.

Its sure not that way here. They charge a boatload
to connect and reconnect, especially if its not your
primary residence. If its a rental property here, they
charge a $1000 deposit to reconnect. They want
protection when the next deadbeat flees the place.

I have a separate account for my barn which is 100
feet from the house. Because its not my primary
residence, the $1000 deposit applies there also if
I ever get it disconnected and reconnected.

Quote: ewjones080

Plain and simple, education is flawed in America. I think the problem is we want EVERYONE to have an education. Some people should drop out in 8th grade like they did a hundred years ago. I don't care how insensitive that sounds.

The other thing is we don't know HOW to teach math and reading and science. Learning about the scientific method was beyond boring in middle school. By college, it became interesting. Advanced mathematics, which I think young children should be able to grasp isn't taught to 95% of the population, just college kids. Instead, memorize a bunch of boring formulas, never to be used again.

To this day I feel bitter about my education from time to time. High school doesn't really prepare you for college OR the real world.

Couldn't agree with this more. The problem is in an effort to quantify the quality of the public school system in this country, we've instituted a bunch of stupid tests. That only seem to measure how well the students have been taught the test. In my recent experience most teachers, and in school administrators, realize the futility of this system, but their job is tied to the results of these tests. As a result the vast majority of time in schools is spent preparing for standardized tests. Not actually learning anything. Logic...forget about it. Applying a learned skill...no time for that. The test is next week.

Also the misguided liberal nutball idea that everyone is the same. "no child left behind"... Noooo some people are smarter than others. Some children will be left behind, it's inevitable. So we've watered the education down so everyone passes. Creating a generation of entitled dumb-asses. Who all get a blue ribbon for showing up at everything.....errrrrrrr...This concludes my rant.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Yesterday, I went to the movies and bought popcorn for $6.00. I gave the girl $11.00 and got a somewhat lengthy deer-in-the-headlights look.

That happens to me all the time. People are especially confused when I go to the gas station and buy a bottle of water, say the price is $1.39, and then I ask for $38.61 on pump four to make it an even $40.

Some stores ask if you would like to make a donation to whatever charity they are supporting. In such cases I'll donate whatever amount would round my purchase up to the nearest dollar. For example, if I owed $9.13, then I would donate $0.87. However, I always get a strange expression when I indicate my intended donation, to which I have to explain the reason. Once such rounding resulted in a six-cent donation, to which I got a "what a cheap bastard" look from the cashier.

Quote: Mission146

That happens to me all the time. People are especially confused when I go to the gas station and buy a bottle of water, say the price is $1.39, and then I ask for $38.61 on pump four to make it an even $40.

It is a certain kind of mind that does this and is a minority of the population. It is he same people who know to calculate a tip by moving the decimal and multiply by 1.5 without being show. Or to add a series of numbers by pairing several then adding those suns.

It is also the same people who "McGayver" objects to do things not intended. And are good at solving the puzzle.

It isn't all intelligence. Many smart people don't follow it. It is some kind of hardwire in the brain.

Quote: konceptum

In colleges and universities, many students believe that since they are paying for the class, they should be able to decide if they want to attend any particular session. However, some institutions have performed "studies" (not sure if they were done scientifically) which show that students who don't attend class have a higher failure rate than those that do. Institutions are detrimentally affected (read: their financial gains are lower) when students fail. Thus, to promote better education (read: ensure their financial gains), they create attendance policies.

i remember i wouldnt go to my econ class lectures because there was no airconditioning in the building. then just have a friend prepared to sign my name if they took attendance that day. the exams were a joke too since theyd just give u a test bank of like 200 questions to choose 50 from so id just memorize the test bank.

Quote: rudeboyoi

i remember i wouldnt go to my econ class lectures because there was no airconditioning in the building. then just have a friend prepared to sign my name if they took attendance that day. the exams were a joke too since theyd just give u a test bank of like 200 questions to choose 50 from so id just memorize the test bank.

Some classes I am genuinely interested in (such as my econ classes this quarter) I make it a point to get a live class, then the classes I don't care for (science, or any other stupid pre-req like humanities or accounting) I take online. That way I don't miss anything I don't care to learn without being docked for attendance.

Quote: ewjones080

The other thing is we don't know HOW to teach math and reading and science.

If teachers were half as good at teaching core subjects as they are environmental propaganda we would have the smartest kids on the planet. Most kids can give you a 10 min lecture about recycling, saving gas, air pollution, etc., but they cannot spell and do math. I think that the disconnect in the system is the application of the math, spelling, grammar, etc. to something that interests the kids.

The other problem is the media continues to promote the idea that stupid is cool. In children's sitcoms the iconic stoner/surfer idiot is often the hero. No one wants to be the smart kid.

My kid's in grade 11 math now, and alot of the kids say, 'why are we learning this (trigonometry)'. The teacher replies 'because it is fun', acknowledging that it will be useless for most.

Of course 98% of what we actually learn goes out the window. The only time I use pythagorus is to figure out how much time I'll save by walking directly across the muddy field rather than going around the edges. I use area and volume equations all of the time just for fun.

And yeah, when I go to sleep, I calculate squares. Rather than count backwards from 100, I'll calculate squares backwards from 100 squared: 10,000, 9,801, 9,604, 9,409, 9,216, 9,025... it works like a charm...

The fact is that most skilled job requires the following:

(a) excellent language skills of one or more languages. You should be taking English and creative writing skills to the end of high school.
(b) basic yet quick math skills (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions, exponents, probability). Quickness is key. You are not going to bother calculating how much you will save on a bag of candy if you can't do the calculation quickly in your head. Rather than force people to take calculus I would focus on word problems and logic that utilize basic math skills.
(c) research and/or team skills - the ability to work independently or in a team by using outside sources to get information that you need to complete your job.
(d) excellent logic, memory and reasoning skills. These are the ability to solve word problems logically and quickly. Without these skills, you will lack the ability to quickly come to logical decisions based on sound reasoning.
(e) positive attitude - the ability and desire to learn and to happily work. Show up on time, don't be flaky, enjoy the fact that you are getting paid.

Put the five of these together and you pretty much have someone who could do any white collar job. Give them some muscles and they can pretty much do anything.

Now back to work I go.

Don't want to hijack this thread but I can not believe obesity in the USA, even kids. I thought Colorado was the fat ass capital. Now I see where it is one of the lowest states for obesity.

I spend most Fridays and Saturdays, from 8am to 4 pm at garage sales. Hardly ever see and kids playing outside, even on coolest days. WTF

Don't want to sound like an old fart, but in 50's as kids we were running, biking, playing ball till dark-thirty all summer. Yeah , a little stealing milk bottles, soda bottles for the deposit money, off back porches. Shoplifting water pistols, stealing cider from the fruit stand, etc. But 99% of the time was innocent fun. Pedaling them damn heavy Schwinn bicycles, playing baseball with black tape replacing the long lost cover,( after setting fire to the weed covered vacant lot ), stealing greased filled packing from boxcars for torches, visiting the stockyard, etc.

Now the kids are all inside on computers or x boxes. Future fat asses !

Quote: Buzzard

Future fat asses !

Future? They are current fat asses. I volunteer for a youth sports league (ages 8-11) and there's a number of kids who literally can't run because they're so fat already. The kids always ask us "what time is it?" or "when is practice over?". In between drills, we have to constantly remind the kids to stand up or to stop digging in their backpacks for snacks. Usually it's gummy worms or chips. At that age, if the coach told us practice was over, we groaned and asked for more time. When we got home for dinner we were fighting our dad, and each other, for the last lamb chop because we hadn't eaten anything since lunch.

Quote: EvenBob

Who are these kids when an old fart like me can see immediately that it was wrong and they, with their bright shiny brains and degree's can't
see anything. And how did it go by all the customers today, with nobody complaining. Oy..

Under the general theory of Behavioural Adaptation and Road Safety the phenomena of making driving safer is discussed. If you are driving on a European and Latin American Road you are frequently afraid for your life, and all your concentration is on driving. People adapt to an American road with all it's safety features, and then they make it even more dangerous by shaving, texting, putting on makeup, etc.

You are observing a phenomena where people have no ability to estimate anything. They are so used to something doing the calculation for them, that they can't even do an estimate of order of magnitude. Your approach to the issue is to think 2 time $4 is $8, and then you worry about the change. They don't even think to do an order of magnitude check.

So if a mortgage is $200K, and the mortgage rate is 6%, you probably think $12,000 interest a year is $1000 a month. So the payment with principal and interest is going to be something over $1000. If somebody tells you it is $800 or $1800 then you know it is off by an order of magnitude. You probably can't do the exact payment of $1,199.10 (for 30 years) in your head, but you know it is about correct.

================
They are building a minor league hockey arena for 8000 people in our area. It will cost $176 million dollars (and I think they are fudging that number) which is almost 5 times what a normal minor league hockey stadium costs. Season tickets are $410 to $1020 (with some corporate seats for higher).

To me you are looking at $10 million in revenue from the hockey team, including parking, snacks, and beer. It is an order of magnitude estimate. That is about 6% of the construction cost. That has to run the team as well as pay for the building. People say, "I wonder if this will be a financial success?", and I think "How could it possibly be a success?". The order of magnitude is completely wrong.

People make venues that cost a fraction of that amount pay off by having minor league hockey, basketball, lingerie football, concerts, etc. But they are in big cities, not in the center city of an old factory town.

No concept of order of magnitude.

Quote: Buzzard

Don't want to hijack this thread but I can not believe obesity in the USA, even kids. I thought Colorado was the fat ass capital. Now I see where it is one of the lowest states for obesity.

I spend most Fridays and Saturdays, from 8am to 4 pm at garage sales. Hardly ever see and kids playing outside, even on coolest days. WTF

Don't want to sound like an old fart, but in 50's as kids we were running, biking, playing ball till dark-thirty all summer. Yeah , a little stealing milk bottles, soda bottles for the deposit money, off back porches. Shoplifting water pistols, stealing cider from the fruit stand, etc. But 99% of the time was innocent fun. Pedaling them damn heavy Schwinn bicycles, playing baseball with black tape replacing the long lost cover,( after setting fire to the weed covered vacant lot ), stealing greased filled packing from boxcars for torches, visiting the stockyard, etc.

Now the kids are all inside on computers or x boxes. Future fat asses !

Kids were playing outside in the 60`s and 70`s too.I think it started changing in the 80`s.
your childhood sounds like mine Buzz ,playing ball till it was to dark to see,kick the can,riding bikes everywhere. Maybe this needs to go in the remember when thread.