aceofspades
aceofspades
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May 14th, 2013 at 4:41:59 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: aceofspades


What about buying 1 share in the casinos that are publicly traded, then attempt, as a shareholder, to gain access to the documents?


Can anybody comment on the legal merits of this strategy?





As is well known, my legal expertise is in the area of divorce law...


I defer to any corporate and/or securities attorneys on the board...
rainman
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May 14th, 2013 at 4:57:02 PM permalink
I am not an expert but I believe there will be a minimum number of shares you must purchase and that will no doubt be above one.
FleaStiff
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May 14th, 2013 at 5:29:18 PM permalink
The Dottys Are Illegal campaign was largely waged by Stations which now seems unopposed to the bare boned expansion of gaming in Supermarkets in the area. So the Dottys will close and the re-vamped Supermarkets will by the New Dottys.

The high spread is a disturbing factor to consider. If the information were more readily available and in a reliable format then market pressures would force the spread to narrow.
FleaStiff
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May 14th, 2013 at 5:34:05 PM permalink
Not really. Stockholder derivative suits and corporate gadflies were popular in the sixties and laws were tightened a bit, though Nevada corporate laws are notoriously lax. One share would suffice but the paperwork and time and notification requirements would make it a fool's errand.
s2dbaker
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May 14th, 2013 at 7:47:11 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Can anybody comment on the legal merits of this strategy?

All companies with publicly traded shares have to report in great detail, all of their finances. As a shareholder, you are entitled to no more and no less than the general public since it is assumed that at any moment any member of the general public can become a stockholder. For example, you can get any company's 10-K which is their most comprehensive breakdown of their operations. Let's take Caesars 10-K as an example. It has lots of detail about how much it's spending on stuff like the stupid Ferris wheel:
Quote: Caesar

During 2011, we commenced construction on Project Linq, a dining, entertainment, and retail development between the Flamingo casino and The Quad Resort & Casino, on the east side of the Las Vegas Strip, which is scheduled to open in phases beginning in late 2013. Project Linq also includes the construction of a 550-foot observation wheel, the High Roller, which is expected to open in early 2014. Through December 31, 2012, $240.6 million had been spent on this project, of which $187.9 million was spent in 2012. See Note 8, “Debt—Octavius and Linq Projects,” to the consolidated financial statements included in Item 8 of this report, for discussion of the financing related to Project Linq.

but nothing about slot machine payouts. The slot numbers are all bundled into overall casino operations. Caesars might give you the information you request if you write to them. I used to do that kind of work when I worked for Shearson/Lehman many many moons ago but I had varying degrees of success. Some companies would only provide the numbers over the phone, some would send a detailed letter, most would totally ignore you.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
rxwine
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May 14th, 2013 at 8:04:37 PM permalink
Nevada gaming law is finely tuned by years of pandering and political favors. (says the cynic). It's not an accident. It's by design.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Mission146
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May 14th, 2013 at 9:06:01 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard





Can anybody comment on the legal merits of this strategy?



The CEO of Pepsi buys one share of Coca-Cola Inc. and demands the formula...
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
pacomartin
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May 14th, 2013 at 9:19:44 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Nevada gaming law is finely tuned by years of pandering and political favors. (says the cynic). It's not an accident. It's by design.



I think some of the casinos would welcome a small amount of light let in. For instance, the Gaming Commission says there are 23 casinos on the strip that make over $72 million per year on gaming alone. By law the NGC is not even allowed to reveal which casinos are part of the 23, only the count. But I figured out how to back out which casinos are on the list. As usual when you are looking at the list there are not many surprises since most of them make way over that amount, but the marginal casinos are always difficult to tell if they are on or off the list.

The NGC can reveal that these casinos cumulatively retained 8.89% of the money gambled on nickel slot machines.

If we look back at the Wizard's nickel slot survey done in 2012, we get an average of 9.62% retained. Clearly there have been so many management and property changes since then, there may be little or no correlation today, but I list them anyway:

13.34% VENETIAN CASINO RESORT -1
12.58% BELLAGIO -2
11.28% RIO SUITE HOTEL & CASINO -3
11.13% MANDALAY BAY RESORT & CASINO -4
10.95% CAESARS PALACE -5
10.70% MIRAGE, THE -6
10.68% HARRAH'S CASINO HOTEL LAS VEGAS -7
10.68% TREASURE ISLAND -8
10.19% MGM GRAND HOTEL/CASINO -9
9.76% MONTE CARLO RESORT & CASINO -10
9.14% FLAMINGO LAS VEGAS/O'SHEAS -11
9.01% NEW YORK - NEW YORK HOTEL & CASINO -12
8.50% PLANET HOLLYWOOD RESORT & CASINO (ALADDIN in 2002) -13
8.18% BALLY'S LAS VEGAS -14
8.16% EXCALIBUR HOTEL AND CASINO -15
8.16% PALACE STATION HOTEL & CASINO -16
8.08% LUXOR HOTEL AND CASINO -17
8.08% PARIS LAS VEGAS -18
7.16% GOLD COAST HOTEL AND CASINO -19
6.58% PALMS CASINO RESORT -20
------- ARIA RESORT & CASINO -21
------- WYNN LAS VEGAS -22
------- COSMOPOLITAN -23


If someone could make such a list with last year's data, presumably the Palms, Gold Coast, and Palace Station would still show up as the loosest slots. Possibly even Treasure Island. They would welcome the publicity such a list would create. It might even force MGM and Ceasars to be more competitive on the some of the low end slots at some of their lower priced property.

I don't imagine that they could release this data for every individual type of slots. But that would only even things out since the expensive properties would have more expensive machines that naturally have lower percentage return.

It would be nice to have a Maloof signature that he endorses the release of this information.
AcesAndEights
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May 19th, 2013 at 6:54:38 PM permalink
Dang, once again my forum delinquency carried consequences. I would have chipped in some money, but I'm guessing it wouldn't have tipped the scale over $3K.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
pacomartin
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May 21st, 2013 at 8:39:11 AM permalink
It seems that in the UK a random slot machine must display it's % return to player. Also the law says:

Compensated machines vary the chance of winning a prize as a result of the outcome from previous play. Where such a machine is below its target %RTP it may become more generous dependent upon design and vice versa, though the prize distribution is still determined by chance.

I assume that compensated machines means primarily ones with progressive jackpots, but it may cover some other kind of machine as well.

As far as I know, the casino business is healthy in the UK, so they have learned to live with posting the %RTP on their machines.
DRich
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May 21st, 2013 at 11:22:29 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

The Dottys Are Illegal campaign was largely waged by Stations which now seems unopposed to the bare boned expansion of gaming in Supermarkets in the area. So the Dottys will close and the re-vamped Supermarkets will by the New Dottys.

The high spread is a disturbing factor to consider. If the information were more readily available and in a reliable format then market pressures would force the spread to narrow.



Is it coincidence that the owner of the largest slot route that oversee's the supermarkets is married to a Fertitta whose family owns Station's casinos?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
pacomartin
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May 21st, 2013 at 1:48:12 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Is it coincidence that the owner of the largest slot route that oversee's the supermarkets is married to a Fertitta whose family owns Station's casinos?



The writers of the gaming law included a provision for the "limited license" that the gaming revenue only be a small percentage of that of the entire location. They should have included a provision that limits the size of the operation running the limited licenses (15 slot machines or fewer and no table games). That way the licenses would only be available to local taverns, small hotels, and mom and pop stores.
FleaStiff
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May 21st, 2013 at 2:19:24 PM permalink
Its not just the physical expansion but the "going upscale in appearance" revisions to supermarket slot machines plus of course the linking of them all with Club Cards and Specials.
thecesspit
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May 21st, 2013 at 2:21:22 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

It seems that in the UK a random slot machine must display it's % return to player. Also the law says:

Compensated machines vary the chance of winning a prize as a result of the outcome from previous play. Where such a machine is below its target %RTP it may become more generous dependent upon design and vice versa, though the prize distribution is still determined by chance.

I assume that compensated machines means primarily ones with progressive jackpots, but it may cover some other kind of machine as well.

As far as I know, the casino business is healthy in the UK, so they have learned to live with posting the %RTP on their machines.



Slot machines or 'fruit machines' as they are known, are often found in pubs and bars and taxi cab offices. They have a limited jack pot (25 or 50 pounds), but excessively complicated features.... some people swear they know when they are about to 'drop'.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
pacomartin
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May 22nd, 2013 at 3:40:19 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Slot machines or 'fruit machines' as they are known, are often found in pubs and bars and taxi cab offices.


Are they clearly labeled with %RTP? Or do you have to look in the back.
onenickelmiracle
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May 23rd, 2013 at 7:04:37 AM permalink
My understanding is one province in Australia has all machines showing the RTP. I'm sure it keeps them honest as a casino.
I am a robot.
s2dbaker
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February 13th, 2014 at 8:27:32 PM permalink
Reading this story about the Peppermill Casino in Reno made me think about the information that The Wizard was trying to obtain from the Nevada Casino Bosses. Would The Wizard be willing to use a 2341 key to obtain the information on his own that he was turned away from getting from the agency?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
Sagevvvv1
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February 13th, 2014 at 8:47:07 PM permalink
Wow !!
reno
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February 13th, 2014 at 9:36:21 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Reading this story about the Peppermill Casino in Reno made me think about the information that The Wizard was trying to obtain from the Nevada Casino Bosses. Would The Wizard be willing to use a 2341 key to obtain the information on his own that he was turned away from getting from the agency?



I'm speechless. A Peppermill apologist might argue that industrial espionage is common in all sorts of industries, and obviously a business is curious about the competition. But for a casino to open up a competing casino's slot machine?? Let me rephrase that: the Peppermill didn't lose their license for opening up a competing casino's slot machine?? That ought to be grounds for a felony and prison time!

The Peppermill is the nicest casino in Reno. What could they possibly gain from tampering with a Circus Circus Reno slot machine? It'd be like Bellagio spying on Riviera.

They thought they wouldn't get caught?? Did it occur to the geniuses at the Peppermill that the competing casinos are wired with hundreds of security cameras? Unbelievable.
Wizard
Administrator
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February 13th, 2014 at 11:06:30 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Would The Wizard be willing to use a 2341 key to obtain the information on his own that he was turned away from getting from the agency?



Good article! Good for Gaming for throwing a big fine at the Peppermill too.

To answer the question, no, I wouldn't go that far. I might see if I can legally obtain the evidence used in that trial.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
pacomartin
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February 14th, 2014 at 9:13:28 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Reading this story about the Peppermill Casino in Reno made me think about the information that The Wizard was trying to obtain from the Nevada Casino Bosses. Would The Wizard be willing to use a 2341 key to obtain the information on his own that he was turned away from getting from the agency?



All gaming machines are required to clearly display the percentage return-to-player figure (% RTP), or the odds of winning a prize, from use of the machine.- UK Gambling commission

It's kind of a silly question. First the Wizard has always operated legally. Second, what good would the information do? It's clear that all casinos choose how tight they want their machines to operate. The Wizard only uses information that he can publish. Information gathered illegally would be useless to him.
98Clubs
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February 15th, 2014 at 1:15:11 AM permalink
A pro-po to the discussion is the growing sentiment amongst the judiciary, that pay or jail pendulum is getting way too far towards pay. Bloomberg-Legal news is reporting this on the weekend show with june Grasso. Also, the "Affluenza" defense gets accepted by a California Judge (of all states in the Union). Good-ol-Boys network in the news, where it does not want to be.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
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