AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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October 17th, 2012 at 7:48:02 AM permalink
Quote: TheBigPaybak

2. I think many organizations realize that paying the lowest possible wage isn't in their best interest. I don't think McDonald's does that most of the time. I do feel businesses, especially smaller ones, sometimes need the flexibility to do what they need to do.

.

CORRECT! This goes way back, Henry Ford's 8hr/$5 day being the among the first well-known examples. Over the years the reasoning has been distroted to say that Mr Ford wanted his workers to be able to buy a car. Nonsense. He did it because turnover at the factories was very high-they had to hire thousands of workers a year just to stay staffed. When he paid twice as much people stayed on. Cynics refer to this as "golden handcuffs."

The difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals look at this and say it should be a law that everyone does it. Conservatives know if everyone is forced to pay a better wage or provide health insurance then the outfits that do will lose a competitive advantage in workplace recruitment, eventually we will all be worse off.

Yes, some people will not be able to get hired at the best places. Sorry, but welcome to earth. Get better skills and the better places will consider you.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
thecesspit
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October 17th, 2012 at 8:09:58 AM permalink
Golden Handcuffs, I thought, meant a large bonus or wage at some point in the future, but not right now.

E.g. a executive is offered a $100,000 bonus in two years time. He could leave, but he loses his bonus, hence a golden pair of handcuffs.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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October 17th, 2012 at 8:36:19 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Golden Handcuffs, I thought, meant a large bonus or wage at some point in the future, but not right now.

E.g. a executive is offered a $100,000 bonus in two years time. He could leave, but he loses his bonus, hence a golden pair of handcuffs.



Can be used that way as well. I have also heard it called a "honey pot."
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Scotty71
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October 17th, 2012 at 9:08:52 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Golden Handcuffs, I thought, meant a large bonus or wage at some point in the future, but not right now.

E.g. a executive is offered a $100,000 bonus in two years time. He could leave, but he loses his bonus, hence a golden pair of handcuffs.



Yes usually in the form of restricted stock and stock options that vest over chunks of time keeping you handcuffed to your employer....but if they let you go w/out cause they usually vest immediately.
when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because." — E.E. Cummings
Mission146
Mission146
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October 17th, 2012 at 9:19:05 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Then you move into other work. The average person has what, 6 carrers in a lifetime now?



He should move. When I was in AZ they were always looking for good teachers. Teaching jobs in the norheast are harder to get than most places as far as I have noticed.



He could, I just don't know that he wants to. He has subbed, and he sad he would take anything in Ohio or W.Va.



Quote:

Again, why should you have to be "permitted" a certain employer/employee relationship? If a grocery store wants to employ PT to "duck giving benefits" that is their business. One of a few things can happen. There may be a suprlus of labor in the area, in which case they will be able to staff. There may be a shortage of labor, meaning they will need to offer FT to more workers. They may get a lower-level of employee with only offering PT, or they may not. No matter what, it is their choice as a business to do it however they want. As it should be.



I'l tell you why, because when you have a place that works someone 39 hrs, or even 39.75 hrs per week, every week, all they are doing is ducking the benefits. It's cheating, nothing more or less. I worked at a store that did this, you worked 39.75, but if something happened and you accidentally clocked out late on the last day, write-up, two of those, bye-bye. I'll tell you one other thing that happened there with cashiers. The hours went by 15's, so you could clock in seven minutes early without it counting, and that was mandatory! You had to have the drawer counted and be at your register when your, "Shift started." Essentially, then, the five-day-a-week cashiers actually did work over forty hours and should have been FT. Cheating. If you failed to clock seven minutes early, that was a first time right up and second time bye-bye.


Quote:

Based on what? Wages are based on skill. I make more than the kid at the grocery store both because I deliver more value to my employer and I can do his job but he cannot do mine. A doctor makes more than me for the same reasons. Why is wage disparity a bad thing in this case? If there was less disparity then there is less motivation to improve yourself. Why go to college if you can make almost as much at the grocery store? Why learn a trade, taking years to go from apprentice to journeyman to master craftsman if you can make near as much as unskilled labor?

Sorry, wage disparity is not a bad thing, unmotivated people thinking they have a "right" to a living wage is.



I'm not talking communism, here, there is no question that there should and must be some wage disparity and still a good deal of it. I'm not looking to cap income by position, except for State and Federal positions, of course.

Quote:


Why have a prisoner clean highways instead of a free person?

Prisoner: $.25/hour
Free Person" $10+ per hour, and they still need supervision even if not armed.



You are incorrect, no offense. Before that $0.25/hr you still often pay as much as $70+/day to house the prisoner, that must be factored into the equation. Besides, one bullet is cheaper than one hour, even at $0.25/hr.
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Mission146
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October 17th, 2012 at 9:53:26 AM permalink
Quote: Scotty71

The two income family is the worst thing that has happened to America. 100% household employment is what we should strive for. This is where the "rich" need to be "taxed" if you will AND this is where health insurance/HC reform will do the most good. I will start a thread for this topic because it is too much to expand on here.



Bullseye! Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Women's Lib, and wage equality between genders assuming the same position, seniority and education. I'm cool with taking the hammer to the glass ceiling, but an unfortunae unintended consequence of this fact is going to be a flooded labour market on the supply side. If you dump another 30% into the workforce, almost within a decade, it's going to force down wages/salaries relative to spending power and earnings. I can back this up with charts, in fact, I had that very discussion on another Forum, so I could just copy that entire post over later. I've got the data.

Quote:

HUD currently subsidizes housing to almost no rent to accomplish exactly this right. What needs to change? My widowed mother ran a HUD housing unit in a small town for years. Its one of the poorest county in the midwest and wages are low, so depending on # kids rent was anywhere from $8- $180 a month with utilities included and in and at most HUD complexes cable TV is a utility or at least an inalienable right.



The first thing is that HUD regulations need to be changed. HUD has, "Preference points," which basically make it very difficult to find housing (in certain markets) unless you're a family or single parent with custody of your kids. If you are a full-time student, living alone, you are automatically disqualified. If you have no other means by which to obtain housing as a ful-time student, then, and no familly support in that regard, you're screwed. I understand that people could live on campus, but then you talk about th C.C. people and the bulk of those don't have campuses. I obviously do not support having to choose between education and having a plac to live. In my experience tallking to people who have lived in such housing, if you want cable, you pay. They really shouldn't have any except the most basic cable plans, though, if they can't support themselves from a housing standpoint. I'd say Internet access is probably a must, that really gives you access to any information that you may need. TV is unnecessary.

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I'm sorry but I often work 70-90 hours a week, why should I subsidize any wage especially if they aren't working my hours and taking my risks. We have safety nets to prevent starvation so WTF is a good living wage anyway? Is it acquiring goods, that's mainly what people want regardless of what they tell you. They want stuff because that's what people in America value!



I don't know that you should because I do not know what your income level is, FWIW my average week is 65-70, but I'm salary. I would say a good livng wage is simply one by which a person (lacking debt) could easily afford all of their food, utilities, healthcare and transportation to/from work. We are strong enough that there is no compelling reason that people should struggle, in this regard.

Quote:

I like this idea but you have to juice job creation and hiring to even need a job board. If you cut the bennies for non compliance does that include no housing benni's like hud or section 8? As far as the job site goes the Govt doesn't usually compete with private industry (Monster, jobs.com). Is the govt going to screen applicants better? What about the people who get fired at jobsites and newspapers because the government undercut their industry?



Yes, if you refuse employment found for you, that's it, you're 100% done. The reason that someone gets fired (or laid-off) will obviously play a factor. In the event someone works in a Government-Found job, then if they need to call off they must make documentation for both the Agency and the employer. Obviously, if someoneg gets Termed for not showing up for work without adequate cause, they're done, no more benefits, game over.


Quote:

l yeah! I love this but you will be accused of slavery and this is so hard to enforce regionally but you are on the right track. I would goes as far as to phase out lowest level govt jobs and transition unemployed welfare recipients in. All of this works well in urban areas but there is more poverty than you can imagine in rural America and less access to transportation to complete these service projects. You have to be careful that you dont grow govt in this dept so you turn this over to the Red Cross' and Habitat's of the world.



The enforcement would not be terribly difficult, you would just give someone somewhere to be, a time to be there, and check randomly to make sure they are doing what they should be doing. You could even go te route of phasing out Government jobs and putting these people in those places, except, it's kind of counter-intuitive because that is a net job loss. My point is there are all kinds of good social niceties that can be done by people who are otherwise sitting on their tuchuses right now. The rural areas are a tough matter, but certainly, there are services that can be found that people can perform on-line 40 hours per week. It could be as simple as responding to Government agency E-Mails with pre-written answers and passing along the questions for which there exists no pre-written answer. If someone is well-educated enough, they could do proofreading of Government websites just for Grammar/Punctuation errors and correct those.

That's the thing. If you want to get people to WANT to work, then you have to get them in the habit of working, not watching Springer.

Quote: Mission146



What about the alcoholics, they are a bigger problem I bet. You know some are on disability for alcoholism right? Please tell me you would boot them off disability and put em on short term welfare. I say no money no drinky.



Random alcohol tests, you're drunk, you're done. There will be no disability for alcoholism, you will be placed on short-term welfare, do your mandatory 40/week CS and attend AA, you miss, you're done.


Quote:

lose me here. Dont over complicate and just make it a tax credit I think... In your model as an biz owner can I opt out and close up shop?... lay people off? Dangerous ground here unless I'm missing something.
I run a private investment company, is the gov't going to tell me how much money I need to lose before I can lay people off or cut their wages? I need clarification. is this small biz temporary welfare... who audits and decides what is a fair margin?



It is basically just small Biz temp welfare. The fair margin is simply that if you have a business, and the business is viable with exception of being able to pay all of their employees, but otherwise in the good, the Government will help out for one year by subsidizing the wages in order to keep the people employed and off the elfare. You'd be audited, don't misunderstand, so you could not be doing any wantonly frivolous spending either, and then come begging for help, so you might hae to cut your spending in other areas. The overall function, though, is to give the business a year to get back on its feet and people employed.

Quote:

just to get very specific I pay my admin 56k a year+401k match+14 days vacation+12 sick days+disability insurance+employment taxes...is that a good wage? Next year after her wages are paid I should clear over 300k lets say... I'm not looking for ways to pay her less because she is very good... but in 2015 if things go bad and I only clear 200k do I deny her her her normal 3%-5% COLA(union lovers say no) & at what point am I justified to reduce her pay by 30% if ever. Whats my fair wage given the fact that I took the risk of starting my own company (quit a job), burned a shitload of capital (all of my savings and most investments) and flirted with 7 figure lawsuits( over non competes) to get it going? Can I get the govt (Dems) to guarantee she doesn't take a better job and leave me in the lurch...hell no. Great wages & job security for the serfs w/out loyalty to the King....that NEVER has worked. Its my risk to keep talent but you have to understand that in the private sector investors are bearing the risk and you want to potentially tax them more for zero incremental reward. When you gamble do you want to just break even or do you want a payoff for putting your money at risk, Its like paying 3:2 on the 4&10... you might make some money but the downside risk doesnt necessarily warrant the bet.



Good wage? Listen, you've got my PM if she ever quits!!! You are justified in doing whatever sh is agreeable to. I don't think wage increases are necessarily permanent, but like you, I believe in sharing the wealth. If the business does very well, you, as an employee, do very well. In my case, I am about 25% above where I was when I started, and would not agree to go below my starting point, but if the revenues go way down, then my salary needs to come down a bit. I can't expect to keep a high relative pay level for the market when the business is hurting. Wages being indexed to business performance fosters employees who will bust their butt to maxmize revenue because if the business does well, then they do well, and this index needs to be specifically focused on employees whose departments are more closely related to the gains/losses in revenue.

In any event, employees have no more protection when it comes to keeping a job the business simply cannot afford. If they perform poorly, same thing, we would keep laws such as Right to Work, with only the difference that an employee MUST be given a specific reason(s) for termination.

Quote:



Farm subsidies you forgot to mention- I would want to support small farms more and cargill a lot less, but the smaller need to act bigger via cooperatives- End subsidies completely and fund loans to seed farming cooperatives with via community banks. You have to have a strategy for jobs in rural America too!

Stay tuned for health care...



I don't know much about farming Economics, so should I ever have the opportunity to look at it, I will then provide an answer.
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Mission146
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October 17th, 2012 at 10:15:41 AM permalink
Quote: Scotty71


I can live with UHC...but again you are dictating profits. Companies will charge what the market will bear, its very simple. The drugs and equipment they sell overseas aren't necessarily manufactured in an FDA compliant (very expensive) facility in the US either. America doest get to pay Africa prices because revenue has to come from somewhere unless you want to put Pfizer and Merk out of biz. You could shift the most expensive R&D to universities but again that is meddling and will cost jobs and the government cannot allocate capital a fraction as well as a profit driven entity. Dont forget the Healthcare sector is 17% of the S&P 500 and if you crush the pharma companies the pensions and mutual funds (in your 401k too) will get crushed along with the overpaid executives you likely think are the problem. Rev growth will be purely secular & you will remove most of the profit motive that funds future projects. Investments are my area and in addition to stocks I invest in private health care companies and clinical startup biotech too so I am sensitive to this area. I (we) have over 7.2 million directly invested in startups in the following areas (stem cell production for diabetes and cancer research, wound care management technology, medical records efficiency and drug delivery/efficacy). These investment if all the stars align could pay off 200x... is that too much, what is a fair return on my capital when we can lose our entire investment. Investment decisions are driven by competing projects (other projects). If HC doesn't pay off anymore the investment $$ chasing returns will go where its treated best.



I suppose that's the first thing, the FDA is patently out of control, so you need to get rid of some of these garbage regulations. I say that if someone wants a prescription, and a pharmaceutical company can say, "This is what it is designed to do, but we are very early in the use of this prescription, so there could be risks we don't know about yet," and someone is willing to take those risks, then it is fine. If they commit fraud by putting something out there that they KNEW would result in serious adverse side effects, then they can be sued, but to expect medications in their infancy to be perfect (and keep them from the market until they demonstratively are) is irresponsible because it prevents people from getting the treatment they need.

In any event, like many regulatory agencies, the FDA overstepsits bounds and is unwilling to allow individual citizens to take the risks they are willing to take for what they believe will improve their health. The bad companies that intentionally release dangerous products and have unsafe environments will eventually be sued into non-existence/bankruptcy or will be unable to compete with the companies that do adequate research/testing of their products and consistently deliver good produts more cheaply. The first assumption that has to be made is that the pharmaceuticals have no motivation to put out products that will kill people or have debilitating side effects nor would they deliberately do so. The FDA approaches almost everything from a standpoint of a company trying to get away with putting a bad product out their, they overstep their bounds, they do not allow fr individual decision-making, it's ridiculous!

Quote:



Money always goes where it is treated best, casino's & governments notwithstanding.

St Jude Medical for example makes heart valves, pacemakers etc... they spent 704MM on R&D last year, greater than 10% of their revenues...what kind on long term return can the expect on that money. If their Implantable defibrillators (about 40k) work fine now what incentive exists to make a better one that saves more lives. Make them reduce prices by 15%..... Do they comfortably have 700MM a year now to invest in R&D when rev goes from 5.5BB to 4.6BB but their EBITDA goes from 1.2BB to 600MM?



When you look at nationalized healthcare where you can still have for-profit pharmaceuticals, the Government (which will insure the vast majority of people) want to strike a balance between the best working product and most economical product and figure out which one is the correct balance pursuant to product testing and pricing. Delivering a good product at the best price possible will still be incentivized as it is in the current market. Your best bet is the company that you think can do that.
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Mission146
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October 17th, 2012 at 10:38:05 AM permalink
Quote: TheBigPaybak

A lot of points, and a busy day- so to quickly comment:
1. I certainly don't, and would imagine that most people don't agree any "low level" worker is a pariah or social outcast! If you contribute, you're all right in my book!
2. I think many organizations realize that paying the lowest possible wage isn't in their best interest. I don't think McDonald's does that most of the time. I do feel businesses, especially smaller ones, sometimes need the flexibility to do what they need to do.

Anyway, need to get back to it- I appreciate the different perspectives!



1.) We're cool on that point, then, but ther are certainly those that determine that anyone receiving any form of social welfare is an outcast.

2.) They realize that, but only BECAUSE of the minimum wage. In other words, if you want to entice a burger-flipper that can actually be expected to show up for work, maybe you pay him a dime or quarter an hour more than the next guy, which is fine. My point is, without Minimum Wage, you could set the bar for beating another company's wage scale very low. There can be no question that if they were inclined to pay more they'd already be doing it, so it's a cinch they will pay less.
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AZDuffman
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October 17th, 2012 at 11:11:26 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

He could, I just don't know that he wants to. He has subbed, and he sad he would take anything in Ohio or W.Va.



Again, self-imposed limits. If he likes the area, good for him. But it is an area with very low population growth and one where teachers do not quit until they retire. I would suggest he find a growing market (Phoenix, Dallas, Atlanat, etc) then move there and go for it.


Quote:

I'l tell you why, because when you have a place that works someone 39 hrs, or even 39.75 hrs per week, every week, all they are doing is ducking the benefits. It's cheating, nothing more or less. I worked at a store that did this, you worked 39.75, but if something happened and you accidentally clocked out late on the last day, write-up, two of those, bye-bye. I'll tell you one other thing that happened there with cashiers. The hours went by 15's, so you could clock in seven minutes early without it counting, and that was mandatory! You had to have the drawer counted and be at your register when your, "Shift started." Essentially, then, the five-day-a-week cashiers actually did work over forty hours and should have been FT. Cheating. If you failed to clock seven minutes early, that was a first time right up and second time bye-bye.



Well, the answer is to require less benefits then. Clearly the cashier job is one that does not produce enough value to the store to justify an extra $1,000/mo in benefits. Simple economics, as I have been saying all along.

As to clocking in a few minutes early, boo hoo hoo for the cashiers. I have had office jobs where the same is expected, except instead of counting a drawer you have to log on all of your systems. Truck drivers only get paid for the mile driven, but they have to walk-around inspect their vehicles. It happens in jobs sometimes.


You are incorrect, no offense. Before that $0.25/hr you still often pay as much as $70+/day to house the prisoner, that must be factored into the equation. Besides, one bullet is cheaper than one hour, even at $0.25/hr.



Except you are not going to shoot people for minor to medium offenses. The prisoners picking up garbage are lower-risk. Even in Joe Arpio's tent city, picking up trash is a sought-after prison job. You pay to house the cons either way, so let them clean up.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
EvenBob
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October 17th, 2012 at 1:41:39 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I don' see how years matter, just the number of predictions made. 8000 correct predictions of something is impressive. 8, not so much.



Sure its impressive. You act like they throw darts at
a board. Its a finely tuned scientific process and they
can show exactly how they arrive at their results. And
they improve on it constantly, so if anything their odds
of being right go up every 4 years.

They did it earlier with stats from May and found Romney
the winner. They did it later with stats from Aug and it
was even more in Romney's favor. And they didn't even
have to use Intrade.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Mission146
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October 17th, 2012 at 1:50:25 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Again, self-imposed limits. If he likes the area, good for him. But it is an area with very low population growth and one where teachers do not quit until they retire. I would suggest he find a growing market (Phoenix, Dallas, Atlanat, etc) then move there and go for it.



That's a fair statement.


Quote:

Well, the answer is to require less benefits then. Clearly the cashier job is one that does not produce enough value to the store to justify an extra $1,000/mo in benefits. Simple economics, as I have been saying all along.



If you carry this suggestion through to its logical conclusion, which is to reduce benefits so you have more FT employees, then you end up with, "Why don't we pay everyone minimum wage so we can have more FT employees." Absent a minimum wage, "Hey, we can have FT staff optimally at $1.00/hour."

The point that I am making, and why I call it cheating, is because the store wants all of the benefits of a FT employee, and actually, literally (seven minutes early) has a FT employee, and is ducking the benefits.

Quote:

As to clocking in a few minutes early, boo hoo hoo for the cashiers. I have had office jobs where the same is expected, except instead of counting a drawer you have to log on all of your systems. Truck drivers only get paid for the mile driven, but they have to walk-around inspect their vehicles. It happens in jobs sometimes.



I would suggest that most office staff and truck drivers have an effective pay of higher than minimum wage. If you're looking at garbage level employees, and not to say that I didn't personally go above-and-beyond when I was one, but there just really shouldn't be any of this stipulative crap except be on time and do your job adequately. These cashiers would also kill their register at end of shift and then have to count before clocking out, and clock out within seven minutes after end of shift, or be written up. You're basically looking at effectively taking over an hour from someone who you're only paying MW, it's nonsense.

I work for an employer who shares the wealth. January after my first full year here, he says, "Hey, you brought our revenues up 18%, so I'm going to give you a 9% raise," and so it went. I've been here over four years, now, just talked to him yesterday and he said, "The revenues are way up, due to the natural gas drilling. I can't give you a raise based on that because I wouldn't want to take anything away if it stops. Here's what I'm going to do, you get the same percentage raise you got for last year, plus a one-time $1,500 bonus, effective January 1st. I know that even though the revenues would have went up anyway, that you drove them up at times the market declined AND that you are maximizing those revenues for me, so you need to get something for it. If everything remains the same, same deal next year."

Quote:

Except you are not going to shoot people for minor to medium offenses. The prisoners picking up garbage are lower-risk. Even in Joe Arpio's tent city, picking up trash is a sought-after prison job. You pay to house the cons either way, so let them clean up.



Aren't I? How do you feel about second-offense DUI?
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AZDuffman
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October 17th, 2012 at 10:19:19 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146




If you carry this suggestion through to its logical conclusion, which is to reduce benefits so you have more FT employees, then you end up with, "Why don't we pay everyone minimum wage so we can have more FT employees." Absent a minimum wage, "Hey, we can have FT staff optimally at $1.00/hour."



No, you could not. Labor would not supply itself at such a low rate, and if rates did approach such low levels then it would become more attractive for new businesses to hire.

Quote:

I would suggest that most office staff and truck drivers have an effective pay of higher than minimum wage. If you're looking at garbage level employees, and not to say that I didn't personally go above-and-beyond when I was one, but there just really shouldn't be any of this stipulative crap except be on time and do your job adequately. These cashiers would also kill their register at end of shift and then have to count before clocking out, and clock out within seven minutes after end of shift, or be written up. You're basically looking at effectively taking over an hour from someone who you're only paying MW, it's nonsense.



The pay rate does not matter, some jobs just require you have to be there a few minutes early to get set up. If you do not like it, you need to look elsewhere.


Quote:

I work for an employer who shares the wealth. January after my first full year here, he says, "Hey, you brought our revenues up 18%, so I'm going to give you a 9% raise," and so it went. I've been here over four years, now, just talked to him yesterday and he said, "The revenues are way up, due to the natural gas drilling. I can't give you a raise based on that because I wouldn't want to take anything away if it stops. Here's what I'm going to do, you get the same percentage raise you got for last year, plus a one-time $1,500 bonus, effective January 1st. I know that even though the revenues would have went up anyway, that you drove them up at times the market declined AND that you are maximizing those revenues for me, so you need to get something for it. If everything remains the same, same deal next year."



Good for you and your boss. You must provide value and he sees the slowdown in gas driling going on the last year as prices have fallen. Abstractors like myself got hit first, drilling will soon slow as well. At least until exports become more feasable. What would be bad would be for the state to demand all hotel employees get the same bonus.


Quote:

Aren't I? How do you feel about second-offense DUI?



They kept the lawyer I worked for in business. He would announce "two time loser coming in tonight!" Some got the second so close to the first that the cases got consolidated. Best punishment for those seems to be house arrest. I did see a DUI-tank in WNY, where they put them to keep them safe for their year in the can.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Mission146
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October 19th, 2012 at 6:43:05 AM permalink
Before my response, Clinton was great, never got close enough for the autograph, though...

Quote: AZDuffman

No, you could not. Labor would not supply itself at such a low rate, and if rates did approach such low levels then it would become more attractive for new businesses to hire.



I strongly and vehemently disagree. Just look at third-world countries and what employees are paid for hard labor in some of those, barely enough just to eat, let alone housing and everything else. Look at the Industrial Revolution and the type of working conditions that were endured prior to Unions and safety regs.

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The pay rate does not matter, some jobs just require you have to be there a few minutes early to get set up. If you do not like it, you need to look elsewhere.



The pay rate is my entire point, why should an employer have the right to expect such concessions from someone making MW?


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Good for you and your boss. You must provide value and he sees the slowdown in gas driling going on the last year as prices have fallen. Abstractors like myself got hit first, drilling will soon slow as well. At least until exports become more feasable. What would be bad would be for the state to demand all hotel employees get the same bonus.



We will continue to boom, it's just that he can't feasibly give me a raise based upon a 75% increase in revenue over last year, nor would I ask for one, however, he is showing his appreciation for the fact that he knows I maximize revenue (i.e. charge the highest rate-and fill up-that we can possibly get). Actually, a hotel woud ideally have one or two empty rooms, if you sell out completely, you weren't charging enough.

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They kept the lawyer I worked for in business. He would announce "two time loser coming in tonight!" Some got the second so close to the first that the cases got consolidated. Best punishment for those seems to be house arrest. I did see a DUI-tank in WNY, where they put them to keep them safe for their year in the can.



I think the death penalty should serve as sufficient discouragement for a repeat offense.
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AZDuffman
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October 19th, 2012 at 7:10:30 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146


I strongly and vehemently disagree. Just look at third-world countries and what employees are paid for hard labor in some of those, barely enough just to eat, let alone housing and everything else. Look at the Industrial Revolution and the type of working conditions that were endured prior to Unions and safety regs.



In those countries and in the Industrial Revolution, the supply of labor was near-endless. But that does not keep up. Look at Japan for example. In teh 1950s "Made in Japan" = junk. Their cars were cheap and their people were paid dirt. By the 1980s their people were rich and consuming all kinds of consumer goods, and then S Korea was the place where people "worked cheap." Now S Korea is more wealthy and China is the place of cheap junk. But China is already nearing a limit, and some other place will have to be found, maybe Indonesia.

Put another way, put up a sign in the USA saying, "Help Wanted, $3/hr." (ignore mw laws for this example.) You will get few if any takers. Why? Because the market rate is much higher. OTOH, make the mw $15/hr and see how many employers still hire. Few will, because the value delivered is not high enough to cover it. A worker needs to supply 3-4Xs their labor costs to be viable.

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The pay rate is my entire point, why should an employer have the right to expect such concessions from someone making MW?



Same reason as they would from anyone else--business needs dictate it. Same as the OTR Trucker who does not get paid for the walk-around inspection or load/unload time. Most businesses require some kind of this. They get paid if the register dies and they are just waiting. It is business and life.


Quote:

We will continue to boom, it's just that he can't feasibly give me a raise based upon a 75% increase in revenue over last year, nor would I ask for one, however, he is showing his appreciation for the fact that he knows I maximize revenue (i.e. charge the highest rate-and fill up-that we can possibly get). Actually, a hotel woud ideally have one or two empty rooms, if you sell out completely, you weren't charging enough.



It is called REV-PAR. IIRC, Westin was invented the measure and started using it instead of occupancy rate to measure years ago.
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slyther
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October 19th, 2012 at 8:20:54 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

You should expect to do all of those things with TWO minimum wage jobs, and they still cannot.

$7.25 * 2 * 40 * 52 = LESS THAN THE MEDIAN HOUSEHOLD INCOME



Of course it is. The minimum wage by definition cannot provide a median income, it's meant to provide a base income. You start with a minimum wage job and then progress to better paying jobs as your skills merit.
Mission146
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October 19th, 2012 at 9:43:04 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

In those countries and in the Industrial Revolution, the supply of labor was near-endless. But that does not keep up. Look at Japan for example. In teh 1950s "Made in Japan" = junk. Their cars were cheap and their people were paid dirt. By the 1980s their people were rich and consuming all kinds of consumer goods, and then S Korea was the place where people "worked cheap." Now S Korea is more wealthy and China is the place of cheap junk. But China is already nearing a limit, and some other place will have to be found, maybe Indonesia.

Put another way, put up a sign in the USA saying, "Help Wanted, $3/hr." (ignore mw laws for this example.) You will get few if any takers. Why? Because the market rate is much higher. OTOH, make the mw $15/hr and see how many employers still hire. Few will, because the value delivered is not high enough to cover it. A worker needs to supply 3-4Xs their labor costs to be viable.



You can't ignore MW, that's why the market rate is higher, because there is a set market base. We also have a strong labour supply, just look at either the unemployment rate or the true unemployment rate. If you eliminate social welfare and MW, it drives the wages down, there is simplly no other way.

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Same reason as they would from anyone else--business needs dictate it. Same as the OTR Trucker who does not get paid for the walk-around inspection or load/unload time. Most businesses require some kind of this. They get paid if the register dies and they are just waiting. It is business and life.



I'm glad you think they got paid for that, the power went out on more than one occasion and everyone besides management was sent home. They were also expected to come back if more than two hours were left on their shift and we called. Most of them ignore the latter part by not answering the phone, and rightfully so.

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It is called REV-PAR. IIRC, Westin was invented the measure and started using it instead of occupancy rate to measure years ago.



I know what Rev-Par is, it would just have been presumptuous of me to assume you did. The old metric was ADR or Average Daily Rate, which was a useless metric because 30 rooms at $75 is obviously better than one room at $300 just for an example. REV-PAR is, in part, both ADR and Occupancy Rate. Revenue per Available room is simply (ADR * Number of Rooms Occupied) / Number of Rooms (Including Occupied) Available = x
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Mission146
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October 19th, 2012 at 9:57:51 AM permalink
Quote: slyther

Of course it is. The minimum wage by definition cannot provide a median income, it's meant to provide a base income. You start with a minimum wage job and then progress to better paying jobs as your skills merit.



My formula isn't suggesting one of them should, it's suggesting that two FT MW jobs should.
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AZDuffman
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October 19th, 2012 at 9:57:30 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

You can't ignore MW, that's why the market rate is higher, because there is a set market base. We also have a strong labour supply, just look at either the unemployment rate or the true unemployment rate. If you eliminate social welfare and MW, it drives the wages down, there is simplly no other way.



No, the market base is not the MW rate, the "base" is zero, because if the MW does not provide enough value then no hiring will take place. Even in the Gilded Age of Robber Barons there was skilled and unskilled work. If a person had skills they were more able to set their own rate. Same is true today. If I need 20 stone masons for a project and the guy down the street needs 15 and 22 are available it does not matter what the minimum wage is, we will compete for price. OTOH, if a mw worker in a factory produces $20/hr in value and they raise the mw to $21 that worker will soon lose their job as their production does not meet their cost. In reality if they produce $20/hr the max their wage can be is about $8.



Quote:

I'm glad you think they got paid for that, the power went out on more than one occasion and everyone besides management was sent home. They were also expected to come back if more than two hours were left on their shift and we called. Most of them ignore the latter part by not answering the phone, and rightfully so.



I was talking more about slow business but this will depend on where you work. Some places will decide to keep the folks around, some will not. It is a profit-driven decision.


Quote:

I know what Rev-Par is, it would just have been presumptuous of me to assume you did. The old metric was ADR or Average Daily Rate, which was a useless metric because 30 rooms at $75 is obviously better than one room at $300 just for an example. REV-PAR is, in part, both ADR and Occupancy Rate. Revenue per Available room is simply (ADR * Number of Rooms Occupied) / Number of Rooms (Including Occupied) Available = x



Known about it for some time, figured you did which is why I just brought it up. The beauty of it is that you do not need to figure price and occupancy, just one number anyone can understand quickly.
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Mission146
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October 19th, 2012 at 11:00:06 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

No, the market base is not the MW rate, the "base" is zero, because if the MW does not provide enough value then no hiring will take place. Even in the Gilded Age of Robber Barons there was skilled and unskilled work. If a person had skills they were more able to set their own rate. Same is true today. If I need 20 stone masons for a project and the guy down the street needs 15 and 22 are available it does not matter what the minimum wage is, we will compete for price. OTOH, if a mw worker in a factory produces $20/hr in value and they raise the mw to $21 that worker will soon lose their job as their production does not meet their cost. In reality if they produce $20/hr the max their wage can be is about $8.



I say this with all due respect, but the first part is essentially a meaningless statement. To the extent that it could be said to mean anything, it simply means that the base rate is always zero. Given that, "Rate," is used to mean, "Pay Rate," zero is not a base pay rate because it simply means that one is not getting paid.

In the stone mason case, yes, both of you will try to outbid the other guy while still trying to maintain a profitable project, either that, or you will hold off on the project, if possible, until they are done with the first project and you can (possibly) get them at a much lower rate because it is your project or nothing for them, at that point. Again, though, this doesn't take into account a heavily-saturated labour market on the supply side. If there are 100 stone masons, and no other jobs available, it is quite possible that they would take minimum wage. I bet cashiers were paid relatively quite well before the time of calculators if they were good at math.

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I was talking more about slow business but this will depend on where you work. Some places will decide to keep the folks around, some will not. It is a profit-driven decision.



It's much more than that. Sending them home early and expecting them to come back reduces morale (while maintaining immediate profit margins) but the reduction in morale leads to high turnover which leads to more money being spent to train new cashiers and inefficiency (which irritates the customer) because even a trained rookie won't be as quick as a cashier who has been doing it for a few months or more. Focus on immediate profits is not always the best way to do things, and FWIW, when Wal-Mart came into town that store was knocked out in fairly short order. It's hardly a surprise that no other stores in that town were knocked out by Wal-Mart, and in fact, a Dollar General also was built and opened AFTER Wal-Mart came in.

Furthermore, the owner of that store got knocked out by a Wal-Mart in another town, and lost another store due to not having access to credit or enough liquid to restock, clean up and re-open after a flood because he had inadequate flood insurance. In five years, he went from owning three stores and a gas station to owning a gas station.

Quote:

Known about it for some time, figured you did which is why I just brought it up. The beauty of it is that you do not need to figure price and occupancy, just one number anyone can understand quickly.



That's absolutely true. There is some disagreement in the industry as to whether or not out-of-service rooms should be considered in a standard Rev-Par, though our HOS (Hotel Operating System) calculates the Rev-Par based on discluding out-of-service rooms. The theory is you can't rent a room that's out-of-service, but:

1.) Yes, you can, sometimes.

and

2.) I think it should be based on the theoretical maximum. If you have rooms out-of-service for an extended period of time for renovations, then they should simply be temporarily completely removed from your inventory.
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AZDuffman
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October 20th, 2012 at 6:59:25 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146


In the stone mason case, yes, both of you will try to outbid the other guy while still trying to maintain a profitable project, either that, or you will hold off on the project, if possible, until they are done with the first project and you can (possibly) get them at a much lower rate because it is your project or nothing for them, at that point. Again, though, this doesn't take into account a heavily-saturated labour market on the supply side. If there are 100 stone masons, and no other jobs available, it is quite possible that they would take minimum wage. I bet cashiers were paid relatively quite well before the time of calculators if they were good at math.



Yes, one of us can wait, but that assumes nobody else is going to do a project. What happens IRL is on the supply side you get more people entering the trade--someone says to his nephew, "consider being a stone mason, my buddy Bernie is one and the guy is never laid off, plus he makes a fortune." Meanwhile on the demand side someone sayd, "we are paying these stone masons a fortune, can we use a solid-pour for that housing project in Henderson?" Eventually and without government help the industry will find itself.

I doubt cashier was ever a high paid position. What you had before cash registers was a bunch of shopkeepers who owned the shop and worked the register. Had to know math, but had 1/100 as many transactions as todays WMT employee. Also got the stock for the customer, no self-serve way back when.


Quote:

It's much more than that. Sending them home early and expecting them to come back reduces morale (while maintaining immediate profit margins) but the reduction in morale leads to high turnover which leads to more money being spent to train new cashiers and inefficiency (which irritates the customer) because even a trained rookie won't be as quick as a cashier who has been doing it for a few months or more. Focus on immediate profits is not always the best way to do things, and FWIW, when Wal-Mart came into town that store was knocked out in fairly short order. It's hardly a surprise that no other stores in that town were knocked out by Wal-Mart, and in fact, a Dollar General also was built and opened AFTER Wal-Mart came in.

Furthermore, the owner of that store got knocked out by a Wal-Mart in another town, and lost another store due to not having access to credit or enough liquid to restock, clean up and re-open after a flood because he had inadequate flood insurance. In five years, he went from owning three stores and a gas station to owning a gas station.



And that shows why we do not need more regs. WMT put many places out of business and thus gets a bad rap. But if it hadn't been WMT it would have been someone else. I agree it is short-sighted to send them home, but sometimes it has to be done. If MW is $8 and a store owner thinks paying $9 will raise morale and thus productivity then the government kills him if they make the MW $9 since that guy just lost his advantage.


Quote:

That's absolutely true. There is some disagreement in the industry as to whether or not out-of-service rooms should be considered in a standard Rev-Par, though our HOS (Hotel Operating System) calculates the Rev-Par based on discluding out-of-service rooms. The theory is you can't rent a room that's out-of-service, but:

1.) Yes, you can, sometimes.

and

2.) I think it should be based on the theoretical maximum. If you have rooms out-of-service for an extended period of time for renovations, then they should simply be temporarily completely removed from your inventory.




Well, that is all management decision. Good and bad for each system, so the important thing is you do it the same across your chain and if you are buying a property be sure you know how they do it. Same as the Six-Sigma book I read that used hotel room service as an example. Hotel wanted to guarantee 20 minute room service. Book said the key was you have to measure the start time the same every time (do you start the clock when the phone rings, after the hang-up or something elkse) and the end time (when the porter knocks on the door, enters the room, or leaves??) the same way on all transactions while letting the customer know what to expect.
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Mission146
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October 20th, 2012 at 5:59:44 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Yes, one of us can wait, but that assumes nobody else is going to do a project. What happens IRL is on the supply side you get more people entering the trade--someone says to his nephew, "consider being a stone mason, my buddy Bernie is one and the guy is never laid off, plus he makes a fortune." Meanwhile on the demand side someone sayd, "we are paying these stone masons a fortune, can we use a solid-pour for that housing project in Henderson?" Eventually and without government help the industry will find itself.

I doubt cashier was ever a high paid position. What you had before cash registers was a bunch of shopkeepers who owned the shop and worked the register. Had to know math, but had 1/100 as many transactions as todays WMT employee. Also got the stock for the customer, no self-serve way back when.



The problem is that Uncles turn into friends who turn into Tech Colleges and Joint Vocational Schools, and next thing you know you have a flooded job market. It's kind of like this big push into Nursing, I'm kind of concerned that the market will be oversaturated on the labour supply-side if nobody steps in and manages the number of people going into nursing v. demand forecast. It looks great now, but it may well go the way computer programming did, I know quite a few unemployed computer programmers...The main problem there is how fast the technology changes, unless you're really devoted to independent research, then one needs to be prepared to work and be a student for as long as he wants to be in that industry. That's just in my opinion.

Good point about the cashiers. I should imagine that your bigger stores may have had more than one doing it, though, but I guess it was quite possibly family.

Quote:

And that shows why we do not need more regs. WMT put many places out of business and thus gets a bad rap. But if it hadn't been WMT it would have been someone else. I agree it is short-sighted to send them home, but sometimes it has to be done. If MW is $8 and a store owner thinks paying $9 will raise morale and thus productivity then the government kills him if they make the MW $9 since that guy just lost his advantage.



Despite his pathetic excuse for business management, I would say he would have done fine had it not been for Wal-Mart. It was a franchise of a major chain, so I think it certainly would have taken another major chain to put him down. He wasn't likable, though, and he generally treated his employees poorly, which of course generated exactly zero customer loyalty in a limited market.

The problem with the latter argument is, if MW were $1.00 and you made it $2.00, you could make the exact same argument. The thing is, and I could link you to studies that have supported this, given that one employer does not pay drastically more than another employer, wage is not THE primary motivator when it comes to people working at one location over another. It helps, don't get me wrong, but the main thing is to generate morale and find a way to convince people that you are all working together for something. Prior to being moved to the Deli (when the other locations closed) I was PM Grocery Manager, and we were generally treated well...which is to say the head grocery manager and Store Manager were good guys and the owner basically completely ignored my department!!!

With respect to the rest of the hotel stuff, I agree.
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AZDuffman
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October 20th, 2012 at 8:42:51 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

The problem is that Uncles turn into friends who turn into Tech Colleges and Joint Vocational Schools, and next thing you know you have a flooded job market. It's kind of like this big push into Nursing, I'm kind of concerned that the market will be oversaturated on the labour supply-side if nobody steps in and manages the number of people going into nursing v. demand forecast. It looks great now, but it may well go the way computer programming did, I know quite a few unemployed computer programmers...The main problem there is how fast the technology changes, unless you're really devoted to independent research, then one needs to be prepared to work and be a student for as long as he wants to be in that industry. That's just in my opinion.



Well, that is just life in a free market ecnonomy. Owing to a few things, the USA had tremendous job and industry stability 1945-1980. You could learn a trde or get "in with" a big employer and be there forever. IMHO this was due to the combination of all the new tech and ideas from WWII combined with the big head start due to everyone else having to rebuild. No nation has ever probably had it that great, those days are gone.

I don't know about anyone else, but I do not want it that way, I like what we have now. Yes, you have to build your skills. But you have boundless opportunity. If you are over 40 and have the hot skills, or can get them, you have a new lease on life. As to the nurses, I have heard about nursing shortages all my life. The community college I went to put some real push to try to get me to take it up. Even after I said no-flipping-way they said how any grad would get hired. But I hate medical work and I hate touching people I do not know, kind of killers for that job. But the shortage goes on. Computer programers need to stay updated, yes. As do other jobs from auto mechanic to the aforesaid nurses.


Quote:

Despite his pathetic excuse for business management, I would say he would have done fine had it not been for Wal-Mart. It was a franchise of a major chain, so I think it certainly would have taken another major chain to put him down. He wasn't likable, though, and he generally treated his employees poorly, which of course generated exactly zero customer loyalty in a limited market.



WMT put a lot of local chains out of their misery. Sooner or later WMT will be taken down in kind. In 1980 Sears ruled the retail roost. Had for 80+ years. Things change.

Quote:

oblem with the latter argument is, if MW were $1.00 and you made it $2.00, you could make the exact same argument. The thing is, and I could link you to studies that have supported this, given that one employer does not pay drastically more than another employer, wage is not THE primary motivator when it comes to people working at one location over another. It helps, don't get me wrong, but the main thing is to generate morale and find a way to convince people that you are all working together for something. Prior to being moved to the Deli (when the other locations closed) I was PM Grocery Manager, and we were generally treated well...which is to say the head grocery manager and Store Manager were good guys and the owner basically completely ignored my department!!!



True, it is not the primary motivatior bit is is a motivator. It is called "Maslow's (sp?) Heirachy of Needs." Money is in the middle over physical security (say few people want to work at a hotel full of hookers and crackheads) but below fulfullment (even if you make a lot, at some point a boring job is, boring enough to quit.) One can balance the other, Henry Ford paid eough people dealt with boring jobs. If you pay a manager enough he will work the crime-ridden hotel.

But when you take MW too high, the business that wants to compensate cannot.

As to the hotel, I hope the drilling keeps up, lamdman work is dead right now.
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Mission146
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October 20th, 2012 at 10:54:24 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Well, that is just life in a free market ecnonomy. Owing to a few things, the USA had tremendous job and industry stability 1945-1980. You could learn a trde or get "in with" a big employer and be there forever. IMHO this was due to the combination of all the new tech and ideas from WWII combined with the big head start due to everyone else having to rebuild. No nation has ever probably had it that great, those days are gone.



I'll certainly agree with that, and if we hadn't have stuck our business in helping rebuild those other countries, we could very well still be the sole technological powerhouse of the entire world.

Quote:

I don't know about anyone else, but I do not want it that way, I like what we have now. Yes, you have to build your skills. But you have boundless opportunity. If you are over 40 and have the hot skills, or can get them, you have a new lease on life. As to the nurses, I have heard about nursing shortages all my life. The community college I went to put some real push to try to get me to take it up. Even after I said no-flipping-way they said how any grad would get hired. But I hate medical work and I hate touching people I do not know, kind of killers for that job. But the shortage goes on. Computer programers need to stay updated, yes. As do other jobs from auto mechanic to the aforesaid nurses.



I'm not a fan of the way things presently are to the way they were before. There was obviously much more stability when things were not evolving and growing as quickly, and furthermore, when a person couldn't simply be replaced by a piece of technology. In addition to that fact, the idea that a person would start working at a company and be there for 30-40 years is, to be, terrific. It fosters stability.

I suppose that nursing could prove to be an invincible field, but there are certainly countless other fields that seemed like no-brainers to get into from a security standpoint that ended up being a wash. I could not do nursing either, for the same reasons.

Quote:

WMT put a lot of local chains out of their misery. Sooner or later WMT will be taken down in kind. In 1980 Sears ruled the retail roost. Had for 80+ years. Things change.



I'd be very surprised to see Wal-Marts start closing.

Quote:

True, it is not the primary motivatior bit is is a motivator. It is called "Maslow's (sp?) Heirachy of Needs." Money is in the middle over physical security (say few people want to work at a hotel full of hookers and crackheads) but below fulfullment (even if you make a lot, at some point a boring job is, boring enough to quit.) One can balance the other, Henry Ford paid eough people dealt with boring jobs. If you pay a manager enough he will work the crime-ridden hotel.

But when you take MW too high, the business that wants to compensate cannot.

As to the hotel, I hope the drilling keeps up, lamdman work is dead right now.



That's exactly right, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Self-Actualization is essentially the top-level and has to do with an individual meeting his full potential, overrated pursuit, in my opinion, because it requires a potential sacrifice to the security of the lower needs. We clearly see that happening, as essentially discussed above. I'll take self-esteem pursuant to being in good shape in terms of the three levels below that and happily call it a day. Whatever my, "Potential," is, I guess it is not to be realized, but, meh. Besides, how does an individual know he has fulfilled his fullest potential, anyway? Isn't there always something more that a person can do? It's better just to get into a secure position and be complacent with what you have rather than worry about all of that crap.

I still disagree about minimum wage because you simply do not see (at least, in my experince) too much disparity given a certain locale and certain position. It's not like you have a ton of stores paying cashiers well over what other stores are paying them, of course, the market doesn't really demand that they do right now, so I can kind of see both sides of that one.

I appreciate the last part, but there are no signs of slowing down on the drilling in this area. Landman work is dead because this general area has pretty much been fully covered and all of the leases have been signed. There's some of it still going on East of us and North of us, as far as I understand, but none of that in the immediate area. The only concern that I have is that when the drilling comes to an end (3-5 years) this market is going to be over-saturated due to all of the other hotels opening because of the drilling. The mortgage on this place will be all paid off, though, and we should have enough money to ride it out until some of the hotels being built (or older ones) start closing and the supply reaches something closer to an equilibrium with what will be the limited demand that we once had.

The only way we're really screwed is if something happens with the coal mines during the pendency of these events. We counted pretty heavily on summer tourism (that will be more spread out with more hotels, but not going anywhere) construction, and coal miners prior to the first landman ever setting foot in this area. We got along well-enough and this particular hotel only lost money in one year of its 13-year existence, which is the year that I came on in mid-August. We were profitable the following year, so I'm not really too worried about it. With the mortgage gone, we should be just fine regardless of what happens. The owner might even sell when it's all said and done, but with respect to me, he'd likely tell the buyers, "You'd be crazy not to keep this guy around."
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dihaig
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October 21st, 2012 at 4:48:31 AM permalink
Are all those f bombs necessary.
MonkeyMonkey
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October 21st, 2012 at 5:04:17 AM permalink
Quote: dihaig

Are all those f bombs necessary.



I don't know about necessary, but we're talking about 4 instances (a fifth was in a quote so it wasn't a unique instance), 6 pages ago. And the subject was already covered and discarded.
WongBo
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October 21st, 2012 at 5:22:10 AM permalink
Quote: dihaig

Are all those f bombs necessary.


Obviously you haven't read a lot of papers on economics.
It's a fairly common practice.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
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October 21st, 2012 at 5:47:16 AM permalink
Why I'm voting for Mitt Romney. The nice lady in the link makes all of the arguments, economic and otherwise, that were needed to convince me that Romney should be President.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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October 21st, 2012 at 6:22:28 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I'll certainly agree with that, and if we hadn't have stuck our business in helping rebuild those other countries, we could very well still be the sole technological powerhouse of the entire world.



Or we could have been isolated as they fell one by one to communism, cutting off trade, trade route, and markets. The USSR would have easily dominated from Europe to Asia, essentially controlling the Eastern Hemisphere.


Quote:

I'm not a fan of the way things presently are to the way they were before. There was obviously much more stability when things were not evolving and growing as quickly, and furthermore, when a person couldn't simply be replaced by a piece of technology. In addition to that fact, the idea that a person would start working at a company and be there for 30-40 years is, to be, terrific. It fosters stability.



I can see that, but you are looking at only the good side. Many if not a majority of people really *hated* their jobs back then. Mnay do now, but today to get hired at another place mid-carrer is not as bad of a thing. My first out-of-college-"real"-job I got to totally hate the company. Back they I would have been more stuck, and when I was let go I would have been a real pariah looking. These days some retooloing and I am in a different industry that I like much more.

As to "couldn't be replaced by technology" that is a bad thing. Technology does make some people go bye-bye. But those that remain have a better shot at more money. They have better working conditions. Their employer should be stronger, allowing for less chance of going out of business.


Quote:

I'd be very surprised to see Wal-Marts start closing.



This could spin to another thread, but don't be. Nobody is invincible. In 1920 Germany was a destroyed country, by 1940 the world was shaking in frear of them. In 1980 GM had a near 50% market share, by 2005 they were hard pressed to keep it above 20%. In 1995 people were having trunks of 10+ landlines put into luxury homes and that business was a cash cow. By 2010 landlines were for old people only, with more and more people "cutting the cord" than ever imagined. In 1978 Howard Johnson's had hundreds of locations on America's highways. By 1998 there were few than 20 left, by 2008 only one. In 1950 A&P ruled the retail world even more than WMT today, nationwide. By 1980 they had pulled out of many markets, and were and remain a regional, second-rate chain.

IMHO, WMT peaked about 5 years ago. Are they still #1? Of course they are! Can they be taken down? OF COURSE THEY CAN! What will it take? A few things. First you have to realize you cannot compete with them on price alone, lest you be crushed as the bug you are. But Target is doing fine by having an image as "a little nicer" of a store. People hate going to WMT because of long lines and dingy stores. WMT does not care about neat displays for the most part. And as they get bigger and bigger, they become more crowded and less the place to go to in and out quickly. As competitors sieze on this they can be picked apart. As they are so huge they have more and more trouble keeping all the stores fresh-looking and responding to trends. It can happen.

Quote:

Whatever my, "Potential," is, I guess it is not to be realized, but, meh. Besides, how does an individual know he has fulfilled his fullest potential, anyway? Isn't there always something more that a person can do? It's better just to get into a secure position and be complacent with what you have rather than worry about all of that crap.



For some people. Others don't want to assemble widgets forever. The later group is what keeps the economy moving and innovating. Watch "Shark Tank" to see some such people.

Quote:

I still disagree about minimum wage because you simply do not see (at least, in my experince) too much disparity given a certain locale and certain position. It's not like you have a ton of stores paying cashiers well over what other stores are paying them, of course, the market doesn't really demand that they do right now, so I can kind of see both sides of that one.



Let me just ask "why is disparity in and of itself a bad thing?" Let one store pay less and they suffer high turnover, but they are a place where a person can get some experince--a "break-in" house if you will. The ones who pay better become the place good workers aspire to work.


Quote:

The only way we're really screwed is if something happens with the coal mines during the pendency of these events.



In that case, I hope you are voting Romney!
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 21st, 2012 at 11:21:43 AM permalink
The thing I hate about going to Walmart is the
customers they have. Mostly overweight minorities
who don't speak English, or whole families with
their hats on backwards. I love Walmart home
delivery, I hate their stores, they're depressing.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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October 21st, 2012 at 1:58:50 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The thing I hate about going to Walmart is the
customers they have. Mostly overweight minorities
who don't speak English, or whole families with
their hats on backwards. I love Walmart home
delivery, I hate their stores, they're depressing.



I rarely meet people who love going to WMT. Everybody hates the place, yet everyone goes there.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
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October 21st, 2012 at 3:01:35 PM permalink
Did someone mention the people of Walmart?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 21st, 2012 at 3:06:34 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Did someone mention the people of Walmart?



Thats about it. You can put a Walmart in the nicest
town and these people will find it. And bring their
kids.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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October 21st, 2012 at 3:42:35 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: s2dbaker

Did someone mention the people of Walmart?



Thats about it. You can put a Walmart in the nicest
town and these people will find it. And bring their
kids.



After WMT they go to the casino and play the Big-6 wheel.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Mission146
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October 21st, 2012 at 8:59:55 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Or we could have been isolated as they fell one by one to communism, cutting off trade, trade route, and markets. The USSR would have easily dominated from Europe to Asia, essentially controlling the Eastern Hemisphere.



As an Isolationist, that wouldn't break my heart, I must admit. The U.S.A. is actually in the unique position of technically not having to rely on trade with anyone for anything, at least, theoretically.

Quote:

I can see that, but you are looking at only the good side. Many if not a majority of people really *hated* their jobs back then. Mnay do now, but today to get hired at another place mid-carrer is not as bad of a thing. My first out-of-college-"real"-job I got to totally hate the company. Back they I would have been more stuck, and when I was let go I would have been a real pariah looking. These days some retooloing and I am in a different industry that I like much more.



I obviously have no idea how many people hated their jobs back then, but taking your word for it, what does it matter how an individual feels about his job compared to financial security? The problem is that all of this career-switching is now expected behavior. The one thing that you had back then was a mutual loyalty from employee-employer and vice-versa, so as long as the employee did his job competently, he was fine from a security standpoint. Presently, you can experience such things as forced early retirements, encouraged early retirements, contract buy-outs, or people simply being let go because they can be replaced with someone fresh out of school (more current knowledge) who will make less money because he lacks the seniority.

It sucks, but I think it's almost a function of the fact that an employee, in turn, can essentially leave a job anytime he wants to now or completely switch careers more readily. I guess I agree with the employer in this area in terms of there being no reason to give someone the loyalty that he may not give you, although I disagree with respect to employees who have been around for ten (or more) years, can they not just be offered a pay cut?

Quote:


This could spin to another thread, but don't be. Nobody is invincible. In 1920 Germany was a destroyed country, by 1940 the world was shaking in frear of them. In 1980 GM had a near 50% market share, by 2005 they were hard pressed to keep it above 20%. In 1995 people were having trunks of 10+ landlines put into luxury homes and that business was a cash cow. By 2010 landlines were for old people only, with more and more people "cutting the cord" than ever imagined. In 1978 Howard Johnson's had hundreds of locations on America's highways. By 1998 there were few than 20 left, by 2008 only one. In 1950 A&P ruled the retail world even more than WMT today, nationwide. By 1980 they had pulled out of many markets, and were and remain a regional, second-rate chain.



I will say that it is difficult to imagine, then. By the way, that one part stung, I'm 28 and I have a landline! Tough to get a signal at my house, and even if it weren't, I'd still have a landline just because I like them.

Quote:

IMHO, WMT peaked about 5 years ago. Are they still #1? Of course they are! Can they be taken down? OF COURSE THEY CAN! What will it take? A few things. First you have to realize you cannot compete with them on price alone, lest you be crushed as the bug you are. But Target is doing fine by having an image as "a little nicer" of a store. People hate going to WMT because of long lines and dingy stores. WMT does not care about neat displays for the most part. And as they get bigger and bigger, they become more crowded and less the place to go to in and out quickly. As competitors sieze on this they can be picked apart. As they are so huge they have more and more trouble keeping all the stores fresh-looking and responding to trends. It can happen.



I think it would take the perfect storm to close a Wal-Mart. The first thing you need, as you alluded to, is that you have to have a major competitor such as a Target in the area. The other thing you need, then, are smaller stores for certain types of goods comparable to those offered by Wal*Mart, but differentiated in such a way (whether it be presentation or service) that one can carve out a niche market while stealing customers of the end of things with which the store directly competes with Wal*Mart...all of this while being profitable, of course. I don't know how this happens. If you look even at our limited area, Wal*Mart sells jewelry and there are any number of jewelry stores in the area, WMT is not sweating them. Clothes, we have a ton of clothing stores. Auto Parts, we have plenty of those stores. Grocery...etc. If you name it, WMT is competing with someone else in this area for every single product they sell in their entire store and they're really not worried.

I think that one of the main problems here is the Internet and ease of information. You don't have to shop from store-to-store to find the best prices, all you need to do is check on-line. You could have some kind of newly opened Mom and Pop Electronics store in the area, and most people aren't even going to walk in the door unless they can beat WMT prices...and they can't. What are you going to do as an electronics store to get someone to pay MORE money for substantially the same item? I guess you could do, "Free," home delivery, set-up and installation, but the vast majority of people aren't stupid enough to actually believe it's free...you're charging more for the item!!! The difference between, "Free," and working the price of a service into the item is that, "Free," doesn't change the price!

Wal*Mart already has a niche too, which is the niche of everyone! One of the local (to me) Wal*Marts just put in, "The Clinic at Wal*Mart," so you can get all of your basic medical treatments done...at WMT!!! That's basically their goal, one day, one location, get everything done. It works, and they can smash the prices of other places in the process. In summation, they provide a service that most other places aren't big enough to provide (i.e. not having to go anywhere else) and the vast majority of individual items are cheaper than people will find elsewhere. It would take a very powerful combination of elements to take WMT down.

Quote:

For some people. Others don't want to assemble widgets forever. The later group is what keeps the economy moving and innovating. Watch "Shark Tank" to see some such people.



I agree with that, and I can admire such people, but I personally don't see why anyone would want to take the risk.

Quote:

Let me just ask "why is disparity in and of itself a bad thing?" Let one store pay less and they suffer high turnover, but they are a place where a person can get some experince--a "break-in" house if you will. The ones who pay better become the place good workers aspire to work.



I'm not saying that it is a bad thing, just that you don't really see it much in many industries, given a certain locale. However, sometimes it works the opposite way. The one store that did pay a few cents more per hour absolutely would not hire anyone if they had ever worked at our store, period, end of story. I have no idea why.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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October 21st, 2012 at 9:06:34 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Did someone mention the people of Walmart?



Words cannot express how happy I am to live in Ohio right now. The worst I ever have to worry about at WMT is people going in ratty pajamas and running around whooping and hollering for God knows what reason. Nothing like THAT, though, thank God.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AZDuffman
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October 21st, 2012 at 9:21:35 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

As an Isolationist, that wouldn't break my heart, I must admit. The U.S.A. is actually in the unique position of technically not having to rely on trade with anyone for anything, at least, theoretically.



You could not make it until noon if all trade was shut off. From the coffee in your cup to the gas in your car--and the prescious metals in its emissions systems! A chocolate candy bar to fresh fruit in the middle of winter. We rely on trade to survive.

Quote:

I obviously have no idea how many people hated their jobs back then, but taking your word for it, what does it matter how an individual feels about his job compared to financial security? The problem is that all of this career-switching is now expected behavior. The one thing that you had back then was a mutual loyalty from employee-employer and vice-versa, so as long as the employee did his job competently, he was fine from a security standpoint. Presently, you can experience such things as forced early retirements, encouraged early retirements, contract buy-outs, or people simply being let go because they can be replaced with someone fresh out of school (more current knowledge) who will make less money because he lacks the seniority.



Well, it matters when a career switch becomes impossible. Loyalty was not as big as you think it was back then, many long and costly strikes were normal, that is only one example. Again, we are in a competitive economy now, which is probably more normal and the period of long-term-loyalty-on-both-sides a phenomenon fo 1945-1980.

Quote:

It sucks, but I think it's almost a function of the fact that an employee, in turn, can essentially leave a job anytime he wants to now or completely switch careers more readily. I guess I agree with the employer in this area in terms of there being no reason to give someone the loyalty that he may not give you, although I disagree with respect to employees who have been around for ten (or more) years, can they not just be offered a pay cut?



Call it free-agency if you like. And no, they cannot always be offered a pay cut. Smart employers work people in somewhere else. But when you close an entire division this is not possible.



Quote:

I think it would take the perfect storm to close a Wal-Mart. The first thing you need, as you alluded to, is that you have to have a major competitor such as a Target in the area. The other thing you need, then, are smaller stores for certain types of goods comparable to those offered by Wal*Mart, but differentiated in such a way (whether it be presentation or service) that one can carve out a niche market while stealing customers of the end of things with which the store directly competes with Wal*Mart...all of this while being profitable, of course. I don't know how this happens. If you look even at our limited area, Wal*Mart sells jewelry and there are any number of jewelry stores in the area, WMT is not sweating them. Clothes, we have a ton of clothing stores. Auto Parts, we have plenty of those stores. Grocery...etc. If you name it, WMT is competing with someone else in this area for every single product they sell in their entire store and they're really not worried.



I am not talking "a WMT." I am talking the entire operation. Yes, it may take near a perfect storm, but it can happen. As you point out, WMT innovates. Sears used to innovate. At one point, Sears had their own brand of automobile you could buy via the catalog. They sole almost anything and everything in dry goods. A&P ruled grocery the same way. No more. At some point you cannot compete in "everything" and someone else will knock you off.

How does "the little guy" compete? By finding a niche and doing it better. Why do you think other stores fill a WMT strip-mall? If you sell paint you give better service that WMT cannot deliver. If you sell auto parts you stock what WMT doesn't. What you do not do is go head-to-head with them.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
rxwine
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October 21st, 2012 at 10:45:35 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Sears used to innovate. At one point, Sears had their own brand of automobile you could buy via the catalog.



Not just autos, but an entire home.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 21st, 2012 at 10:55:26 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Not just autos, but an entire home.



Hey, Sears houses are in huge demand now
and get big bucks. Those were the days of
oak and hardwoods, quality you don't see
these days.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
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