Creating Value
Quote: bigfoot66The fact that people are willing to go to a casino (hell, they get excited to go to the casino!) and they understand that they are not being forced into gambling or defrauded in any way proves that, for these people, the casino has created value.
No it does NOT! Why do you think those
people are as smart as you are?
Let me give an example. My wife is very
bright, she was Valedictorian of her class.
She was in the top 10% in college. She has
owned successful businesses.
She knows all about how casinos work
because I have it explained it to her for
decades. But she still doesn't 'get' it.
She's fooled by what her eyes see and what
she's been told. She knows she can't get
ahead and stay ahead, but she see's people
winning every time she's there. Our local
casinos FB page posts pics of people who
win over $1000 on the slots every day.
Holding the fanned out cash in their hands.
My wife says, see, people are winning, I'm
next. I can't make her get it, and I've quit
trying. If somebody as smart as my wife
doesn't get, what chance do the other
casinotard's have.
Why do you think they post the pic's of those
winners?
Quote: bigfoot66If this is your opinion then fine, stay out of the casino and you will be better off.
Not financially better off.
Quote: EvenBobIts not any better or worse than what the
casino does. How is beating the casino
at its own game a 'misdeed'. The casino
has the edge and says, here, play this,
I dare you. The AP has his own edge and
says, no thanks, I have have a better idea of how to use the facility you have set up for me to gamble in.
Turn about is fair play.
Indeed, it would be. However, again, you're focusing on a secondary purpose of the casino while ignoring its primary purpose, and claiming "turnabout is fair play," when you only turn about half of it so that both are in your favor. The casino has the floor and says "here, play this against one another, and we'll skim a bit to make it worth our while; alternatively, if you'd rather, here, play this game against a banker, and we'll take your aggregate losses likewise." You say "no, we'd rather trick you into playing this game I bank, then avail ourselves of your facilities for the hours upon hours we need to drown volatility against a single player."
I expect that as before, your response will be to ignore all but one phrase encapsulating the conclusion and scream "nuh-uh!"
Quote: EvenBobShe knows all about how casinos work
because I have it explained it to her for
decades. But she still doesn't 'get' it.
She's fooled by what her eyes see and what
she's been told. She knows she can't get
ahead and stay ahead, but she see's people
winning every time she's there. Our local
casinos FB page posts pics of people who
win over $1000 on the slots every day.
Holding the fanned out cash in their hands.
My wife says, see, people are winning, I'm
next. I can't make her get it, and I've quit
trying. If somebody as smart as my wife
doesn't get, what chance do the other
casinotard's have.
Frankly, I think your wife gets it, and you don't.
The point, for a slot player, or a casual blackjack player, or a player of craps, roulette, baccarat, or a carnival game, (or bingo, keno, sic bo, pai gow, trente et quarante... you get the picture) isn't to win in the long run. The point is simply to win, and if you don't win, to have those moments of anticipation is almost enough. Call it "entertainment," or call it a high, or an addiction - it doesn't matter. The point is that people like it, and people do indeed win. As I'm sure she's explained to you, no, she's not likely to get ahead and stay ahead over any length of time. She's not there to grind, I'm sure; she's there to win.
You may think that's stupid. That's your prerogative. But it's not, in any objective sense, wrong.
Quote: 24BingoAs I'm sure she's explained to you, no, she's not likely to get ahead and stay ahead over any length of time. She's not there to grind, I'm sure; she's there to win.
You're not reading what I wrote. She DOES expect to get
ahead and stay ahead with a big jackpot win, just like
a lottery player. She hears about big winners that wipe out
all they're losses all the time. She willingly drinks the casinos
KoolAid..
I'm not making this up. 6 months ago I was talking to a
middleaged guy on the RE setup while we were playing. He said
his wife had just won a $15,000 jackpot last year and was
still in the process of giving it back to the casino. I said,
yup, thats what the casino wants you to do. She should
quit while she's ahead.
He said she wasn't ahead, the $15K still left her $5K in the
hole. She was looking for the next jackpot to put her ahead,
and the big one to keep her ahead. I thought he was joking.
I said, yeah, like thats gonna happen. She's better off buying
staying home.
This guy turned to me and his eyes were little slits. He said
in a real quiet voice, 'you have no idea how casinos work and
I'd appreciate it if you kept your f-ing comments to yourself.'
And he stomped away.
It floored me. I had forgotten how serious a lot of these people
are. I always learn the same lesson over and over, never discuss
gambling in a casino.
You argued that money is a bad measure of value, I asked you what is a better measure of value and you do not offer one.
I argue that something people willingly spend money on is valuable to that person, you reply that these people like your wife (your opinion, not mine) are too dumb to know whats good for 'em and are getting conned.
You argue that it's all about the money and it has nothing to do with the game itself. Well, first of all psychological research suggests that a near miss (7, 7, the blank just below 7) is almost equally as rewarding psychologically as a win. Second, it's clearly about the gambling and not the money. Does your wife get excited that she is getting 8 hours of overtime this week and will be 'winning' X dollars this week as a result? No? But she gets very excited to spend 8 hours at the casino and maybe win the same amount?
Quote: EvenBobYou're not reading what I wrote. She DOES expect to get
ahead and stay ahead with a big jackpot win, just like
a lottery player. She hears about big winners that wipe out
all they're losses all the time. She willingly drinks the casinos
KoolAid..
I'm not making this up. 6 months ago I was talking to a
middleaged guy on the RE setup while we were playing. He said
his wife had just won a $15,000 jackpot last year and was
still in the process of giving it back to the casino. I said,
yup, thats what the casino wants you to do. She should
quit while she's ahead.
He said she wasn't ahead, the $15K still left her $5K in the
hole. She was looking for the next jackpot to put her ahead,
and the big one to keep her ahead. I thought he was joking.
I said, yeah, like thats gonna happen. She's better off buying
staying home.
This guy turned to me and his eyes were little slits. He said
in a real quiet voice, 'you have no idea how casinos work and
I'd appreciate it if you kept your f-ing comments to yourself.'
And he stomped away.
It floored me. I had forgotten how serious a lot of these people
are. I always learn the same lesson over and over, never discuss
gambling in a casino.
This is a sad story; It sounds like these may be people who should stay away from gambling.
Quote: 24BingoYou say "no, we'd rather trick you into playing this game I bank, then avail ourselves of your facilities for the hours upon hours
'Trick them'? Where do AP's trick them? We walk up
to a table, play, and leave. Where's the trick? When
I sit down, nobody ever explains to me, 'sir, the house
has the edge in this game. The liklihood is, if you sit
here long enough, our edge will wear you down, and
you will lose money. Your's is a negative expectation
game.'
Yet for some reason, you think I'm supposed to announce
to the casino that I have the edge. Why would I do that?
They didn't tell me they had one.
And you seem really honked off that we do this in their
facility, like its somehow sacred ground and only they
have the right to screw people over. You've mentioned
it again and agin. Why is that?
Quote: bigfoot66This is a sad story; It sounds like these may be people who should stay away from gambling.
You think that most people in a casino are smarter than
that guy? I've been talking to them for 35 years. They're
not. People believe what they want to believe, no matter
what you tell them.
Ever hear the phrase 'never wise up a chump'? Its because
its a waste of time, its like wising up a rock or a tree.
Quote: EvenBob'Trick them'? Where do AP's trick them? We walk up
to a table, play, and leave.
Half the discussion about AP play is how to avoid detection! Back counting, disguises, false players cards, cover play..... They trick the casinos all the time!
Quote: bigfoot66Half the discussion about AP play is how to avoid detection!
And half the casinos strategy is not to let the
chumps know they don't have a chance. Free
drinks, no clocks or windows, confusing layouts
and carpeting, comps, anything to trick the
chumps into playing longer. Whole books
are now written on how to design casinos to
have the maximum effect on getting the player
to stay and play as long as possible.
Thats why it takes 4 hours of play before they
rate you for comps. They know that after 4 hours,
the house edge has kicked in and you're losses are
now compounding to the point where you won't
gain them back. You think 4 hours is just a number
they pulled out of their ass?
Quote: EvenBobYou're not reading what I wrote. She DOES expect to get
ahead and stay ahead with a big jackpot win, just like
a lottery player. She hears about big winners that wipe out
all they're losses all the time. She willingly drinks the casinos
KoolAid..
And she may well. If you bet a single number on a roulette wheel 35 times, you have better than a 3/5 chance of leaving ahead. It's the same gambit, just on a larger scale. And if it falls through... it falls through. I don't know your wife, but as long as she does something brighter with that big win than feeding it all back in, more power to her.
Quote: EvenBobYet for some reason, you think I'm supposed to announce
to the casino that I have the edge. Why would I do that?
They didn't tell me they had one.
I think the phrase I'm looking for is "Im Sorry I Thought That Was Obvious."
I mean, really? Granted, there isn't a big sign above the craps table saying "WE MAKE MONEY OFF THIS GAME," but does anyone think otherwise? Sure, a few people think they've figured out "the secret," but they're running against the grain - and they'll tell you that the casino propaganda is that you can't win! So even those morons are aware of the general understanding that you can't beat the house playing by their rules, even though they disagree.
Quote: EvenBobAnd you seem really honked off that we do this in their
facility, like its somehow sacred ground and only they
have the right to screw people over. You've mentioned
it again and agin. Why is that?
Oh, I see! You're a Communist.
In case, however, you're just a bit unclear on the concept, this is generally how businesses work. You may deny that the casino is a form of entertainment, but do you deny it's a place of business? You make a bet in there, they get paid, either directly or by the bank.
Quote: EvenBobAnd half the casinos strategy is not to let the
chumps know they don't have a chance. Free
drinks, no clocks or windows, confusing layouts
and carpeting, comps, anything to trick the
chumps into playing longer. Whole books
are now written on how to design casinos to
have the maximum effect on getting the player
to stay and play as long as possible.
These are all manipulative, but I'm not sure I'd call them deceptive. Keeping the players playing as long as possible doesn't change the nature of the game they're playing. Nothing about any of these tactics suggests to the "chumps" that they may have a chance (at least, more than they do), just keeps them trying their luck longer.
Quote: EvenBobThats why it takes 4 hours of play before they
rate you for comps. They know that after 4 hours,
the house edge has kicked in and you're losses are
now compounding to the point where you won't
gain them back. You think 4 hours is just a number
they pulled out of their ass?
No. But why would they care if the house edge has "kicked in"? Do they want you to pass the "point of no return" you explained to us all, where no amount of positive variance could get you back to even even in a fair game with infinite time? No, my guess would be the 4 hours are so that they know whether those black chips you're playing at roulette are your habit or just something you thought would be neat to do with the sevens bonus you got from their neighbor's $5 Spanish.
Quote: 24Bingo
Do they want you to pass the "point of no return"
Loss compounding is a very real thing. But I'm
sure you know that. You know why its 4 hours,
you know it works. Play your games with some
somebody else.
I'm only replying to this part because the
rest of your post is just repeating yourself and I already
addressed it. If you're just going to be a broken
record, I'm getting bored.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "loss compounding." I can't find the term anywhere. The quoted comment was a little jab at your earlier assertion that a player of a fair game will reach a "point of no return," to which this seems similar in logic. It's my understanding that general policy is to comp the same whether a player is up or down, as long as they're playing a losing game or a game with a vig. So why would it be in their interest to wait for a player to probably be down currently? After all, four hours is hardly enough time to guarantee a loss. And besides, of the people who only play a few rounds and forever quit while they're ahead, some of them will just never get ahead, and it adds up to exactly the same amount per unit bet. So at the very least, if I don't understand the reason correctly, I understand enough to know it's not the reason you say.
And I'm a broken record?! You're just chanting "we're exactly the same!" again and again; the closest you've come to addressing the reason you're manifestly not is when you asked why it was that the casino's management of games was a reason for them to expect a cut in one form or another, a question that answers itself. Or the other mantra, "gambling's not entertainment!" - whether it deserves to be called "entertainment" or not, what's indisputable is that some people like it, even with an edge, and it's not free.
Quote: 24Bingo
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "loss compounding."
It works just like compound interest. Only in reverse.
The more you play, the more you lose because of the
house edge. You eventually reach a point where no
matter how much luck you have, you'll never get back
to even. You can raise the stakes, but how often can
you do that before you can't afford it anymore.
Of course for the house its different. With thousands
of players over a period on time, all their compounded
losses add up to huge profits. Thats why AP's scare and
piss off casinos. The AP is the one forcing the casino
into compounded losses, and after a period of time,
the AP is so far ahead that no amount of negative variance
will bring him into not being ahead in winnings.
Quote: EvenBobIt works just like compound interest. Only in reverse.
...I'm not sure I follow the analogy. Usually, compound interest as an analogy is to illustrate exponential growth, but losses grow with the integral of the stakes - only exponential if the stakes are.
Quote: EvenBobThe more you play, the more you lose because of the
house edge. You eventually reach a point where no
matter how much luck you have, you'll never get back
to even. You can raise the stakes, but how often can
you do that before you can't afford it anymore.
I wouldn't say you "reach a point," as much as it gets less likely you'll ever break even with every loss. Strictly speaking, it's never impossible, even without raising the stakes (you could always win n crapshoots in a row, for any n), but I'll agree when you're down more than a few dozen units it's practically impossible. But so what? The casino has no interest in individual players losing. They really do want players to win, as long as someone else loses. Winners are what they sell, and losers pick up the tab.
Quote: EvenBobOf course for the house its different. With thousands
of players over a period on time, all their compounded
losses add up to huge profits. Thats why AP's scare and
piss off casinos. The AP is the one forcing the casino
into compounded losses, and after a period of time,
the AP is so far ahead that no amount of negative variance
will bring him into not being ahead in winnings.
Again, never say never (you could always see n bad shoes in a row, for any n). Other than that, though, this is true: they do make money off the aggregate losses of those who play honestly against the house, funding the games and profiting their facilitators, just like a bookie's vig. APs vex casinos because their aggregate winnings come from the money to fund the games and profit their facilitators.
Quote: 24Bingo. APs vex casinos because their aggregate winnings come from the money to fund the games and profit their facilitators.
AP's aren't in the casinos business model. They're the
fly in the ointment. They aren't supposed to exist. Thats
why they call them cheaters, in the same league with
pastposters and loaded dice. The model says the casino
is supposed to eventually make money from every person
who walks thru the door. I really think its more the principle
of the thing to them, rather than the money lost. They
can't stand being beat at their own game. Its humiliating
to them.
What did I miss?..
No matter what anyone says thinks or does, counting is a legitimate response to blackjack,
The same way that knowing the edge at any game is.
You can't fault one without faulting the other.
What are you supposed to do, not use some knowledge you've gained?
Quote: WongBo
What are you supposed to do, not use some knowledge you've gained?
Somebody else in another thread likened it to
taking candy from a baby. Just because you can
do it, doesn't mean you should.
But it's OK for the casino to do the same thing
because everybody knows they play a negative
game in a casino. But thats not true, far from
it. Most people think they can get ahead, they
really don't know that much about it.
The casino takes advantage of unsuspecting
players and AP's take advantage of the casino.
Sounds fair to me.
Quote: WongBoJust got in from hole carding 3cp,
What did I miss?..
No matter what anyone says thinks or does, counting is a legitimate response to blackjack,
The same way that knowing the edge at any game is.
You can't fault one without faulting the other.
What are you supposed to do, not use some knowledge you've gained?
In this thread no one has anyone argued that advantage play is illegitimate. You must not have been following the thread because I know you are too intelligent to have missed my point here. AP as a career is not productive like being a doctor or an artist or working on cars or... It benefits one person at the expense of another, whereas someone like a factory worker engages in win/win transactions where, at the end of the day, both sides are wealthier than they were before.
Quote: bigfoot66It benefits one person at the expense of another,
Just what the casino does. An AP simply does to the
casino what the casino does to everybody else.
It turns their own play back on them. Perfect.
Quote: EvenBob
The casino takes advantage of unsuspecting
players and AP's take advantage of the casino.
Sounds fair to me.
Good lord. Unsuspecting players? What planet do you live on? Everybody understands that if you play any casino game long enough you will lose your money. And Are you even reading what anyone else has said? WE ARE NOT CLAIMING THAT AP IS UNFAIR OR IMMORAL IN ANY WAY!!!!!!!!! You felt insulted earlier when I said you were thick, but, man, come on. We have been so clear on what we are arguing and you keep misrepresenting our point, I seriously feel like I have called into the Phil Hendrie Show and you are just one of his characters here to keep the sucker on the line as long as possible.
I mean it really is amazing, the more I think about it. You totally understand the point we are making and you keep disagreeing just to piss me off!!! And I keep falling for it! I keep getting invested emotionally in trying to argue with you even though I know you have zero interest in debating on fair terms, accurately characterizing my position, or exhibiting the smallest degree of intellectual honesty.
Well you are doing a hell of a job, because I am all worked up even though I know that's all you care about. Jesus Bob, you are some piece of work my friend.
Quote: bigfoot66Everybody understands that if you play any casino game long enough you will lose your money.
You are 100% wrong. Truth is, MOST casino
players don't understand this at all. I've given
examples from my own experience, and you
still don't get it. Most, MOST players think
they can get ahead and stay ahead with just
the right amount of luck.
Quit thinking everybody is as smart and informed
as your are. They aren't.
Quote: EvenBobAP's aren't in the casinos business model. They're the
fly in the ointment. They aren't supposed to exist. Thats
why they call them cheaters, in the same league with
pastposters and loaded dice.
All this is true - but also, you can't ignore that AP of a banking game, almost by definition, is to subvert the assumptions under which the game is offered, whether or not it's technically cheating.
Quote: EvenBobThe model says the casino
is supposed to eventually make money from every person
who walks thru the door.
Again, why would they want this? A few jackpots will put you ahead on slots for a very long time, and I know there are people on this forum who are up after years of craps; that's the idea. The appeal is to be one of those people, even though you probably won't be. Their take's determined by the bets alone, and a bet's a bet whoever makes it.
Quote: EvenBobI really think its more the principle
of the thing to them, rather than the money lost. They
can't stand being beat at their own game. Its humiliating
to them.
They're not playing the game; they're hosting it. If they were really playing the game, the dealer wouldn't have hit that sixteen against a table of stiff hands, the banker and player wouldn't ignore each other's down cards, etc. They've set up the game for those that understand the concept of a banking game, and find it appealing, not for those who take offense at the concept and try to subvert it, or those who see a potential hustle and simply don't care.
Quote: WongBoJust got in from hole carding 3cp,
What did I miss?..
No matter what anyone says thinks or does, counting is a legitimate response to blackjack,
The same way that knowing the edge at any game is.
You can't fault one without faulting the other.
What are you supposed to do, not use some knowledge you've gained?
The place where this breaks down - what should you do with the knowledge you've gained? What you "should" do is put in some token min bets to stay at the table until you figure the EV as positive, then Kelly bet up to the maximum. So is that what you do? Of course not. Why not? You'll get the boot. Instead, you walk the razor's edge, trying to find the best strategy possible that the house won't recognize as a winning strategy. How, then, can you pretend this is anything but a confidence game?
Blackjack's a strange game, though, to be honest. If it weren't so popular, I imagine they'd have chucked it long ago; not sure how all these carnival variants, many of which are equally countable (Spanish especially) keep popping up.
Holecarding, on the other hand, is not the least bit defensible by this logic, since you're going out of your way to obtain knowledge you know you're not supposed to have. Try it in real poker - I expect at least a few others at the table will be counters as well, so your lines ought to be a grand hit.
Quote: EvenBobSomebody else in another thread likened it to
taking candy from a baby. Just because you can
do it, doesn't mean you should.
...let me guess, a few paragraphs up when I said APs "walk the razor's edge," I meant they were suicidal?
Quote: EvenBobBut it's OK for the casino to do the same thing
because everybody knows they play a negative
game in a casino. But thats not true, far from
it. Most people think they can get ahead, they
really don't know that much about it.
Honestly, where are you finding these people? I don't know of them. The few people I'm aware of firsthand who think they can beat the house by means other than trickery think that this is a grand secret they've discovered, which the casinos are hiding from the general public. People think they could get ahead, but, well... they could. But everyone knows, ultimately, "the house always wins."
Quote: bigfoot66WE ARE NOT CLAIMING THAT AP IS UNFAIR OR IMMORAL IN ANY WAY!!!!!!!!!
To be fair, I did actually say that I felt it a "venial misdeed" (also "swindle" and "con"), and I stand by that. In most cases, the casino can afford it, and they're no angels for the most part, but it is a manner of making money by subterfuge. And if done as a living, there is the morality of making such a parasitic living.
Quote: EvenBobMost, MOST players think
they can get ahead and stay ahead with just
the right amount of luck.
Ah. I see the problem.
A little tidbit: after five thousand equal pass line bets, with no odds, you have about a one in six or seven chance of being ahead. Odds bets drive this up, as does darksiding very slightly. Perfect BSBJ, if you can manage it, it's about 170,000 bets with good rules. 9/6 JoB, over 900,000.
So in short, what you're missing is: they can.
Quote: 24Bingo
To be fair, I did actually say that I felt it a "venial misdeed" (also "swindle" and "con"), and I stand by that. In most cases, the casino can afford it, and they're no angels for the most part, but it is a manner of making money by subterfuge. And if done as a living, there is the morality of making such a parasitic living.
It's funny, a casino offers games that they have set to their advantage. Some games, a huge advantage. They then INVITE the public to come play these games. And when the .1 percent (that's 1 out of 1000 players and that is being very liberal, it's probably more like .01%) is able to beat them at these games, the casino and/or those that work for them use words like "swindle, "con" and "parasite."
Now, morality. I've never been able to figure out how it is "immoral" for me to play play these games, completely fairly, by the rules that the casino, themselves set, using only my brain to win. That seems to be the big issue for the casino industry and it's employees. Using one's brain is immoral and makes one a "con" or "parasite".
But on the other side of the fence, these same folks, (casino industry and it's employees) see absolutely nothing immoral about enticing people to lose money that they can't afford to lose. Money often needed to support one's family and children, that never makes it home on payday. But that's not the casino's fault or responsibility. I think "enticing" is a rather mild word for an industry that literally preys on people's addictions. It's not enough that they have a huge advantage by the rules of these games, that part is fair. What crosses the 'immoral' line in my book is policies such as providing free liquor in an effort to get the patron so drunk that they not only lose fairly, but make poor and impaired decisions. On par, maybe even worse that the free liquor is the check cashing policies/promotions of many casinos. "Cash your paycheck or government check here and receive a 10% free play bonus or match play bonus". I am surprised they haven't initiated direct deposit straight to the casino. lol
So talk to me about immorality! Some how when the casino does it, it's just solid business practices. So while casino employees like to pass judgement on me and those of us that win, playing the game completely fairly, by the rules that the casino itself set up, I can only hope that some day a greater authority will pass judgement on this industry and those that work for them. And yes, employees are just as guilty as the industry they work for. It's NOT a case of just doing one's job. Not when you KNOW what you are doing is wrong and hurts people. If that were the case, hitmen would not be guilty of anything. Casino employees are enablers, by definition. No different that a drug dealer, in my book.
Casinos are good and moral anybody who beats them are bad, and immoral cheaters.
Quote: kewljIt's funny, a casino offers games that they have set to their advantage. Some games, a huge advantage. They then INVITE the public to come play these games. And when the .1 percent (that's 1 out of 1000 players and that is being very liberal, it's probably more like .01%) is able to beat them at these games, the casino and/or those that work for them use words like "swindle, "con" and "parasite."
I have never worked for a casino (unless being a winning poker player counts), and as far as I know neither has bigfoot66. I do know what percentages are.
It is very clear from context that "parasite" was referring specifically to those who make a living off it exclusively, not because of the immorality of the act itself, but its lack of quid pro quo. "Con" or "swindle" is not necessarily a value judgment, but an apt descriptor of making money by exploiting a mutual understanding.
Quote: kewljNow, morality. I've never been able to figure out how it is "immoral" for me to play play these games, completely fairly, by the rules that the casino, themselves set, using only my brain to win. That seems to be the big issue for the casino industry and it's employees. Using one's brain is immoral and makes one a "con" or "parasite".
Ah, the old "using my brain" line. A monkey could keep a count. A monkey could bet the count if it weren't for the little cat-and-mouse antics that go on. Holecarding and warped roulette don't even require that much thought. You're not using your brain half as much as your spleen.
It is generally understood that a roulette wheel is supposed to be fair, that cards are supposed to be unknown until they are turned up, and (just in case) that dice are supposed to be fair and independent. You are going out of your way to damage these assumptions, and that's nothing more or less than a scam.
It's also understood that card counting is not allowed. Granted, it's a bit murkier than the others, but you can't cover bet, artificially limit your spread, feign drunkenness or poor strategy, and then claim that you're playing by their rules. You just aren't.
Quote: kewljBut on the other side of the fence, these same folks, (casino industry and it's employees) see absolutely nothing immoral about enticing people to lose money that they can't afford to lose. Money often needed to support one's family and children, that never makes it home on payday. But that's not the casino's fault or responsibility. I think "enticing" is a rather mild word for an industry that literally preys on people's addictions. It's not enough that they have a huge advantage by the rules of these games, that part is fair. What crosses the 'immoral' line in my book is policies such as providing free liquor in an effort to get the patron so drunk that they not only lose fairly, but make poor and impaired decisions. On par, maybe even worse that the free liquor is the check cashing policies/promotions of many casinos. Cash your paycheck or government check here and receive a 10% free play bonus or match play bonus. I am surprised they haven't initiated direct deposit straight to the casino. lol
Gambling ruins people, yes. Far more people are not ruined by it. You may as well go after bars, auto dealers, gunsmiths, knife makers... hell, everyone who makes anything remotely dangerous.
I'd complain about the free liquor, but the thing is, I want my free liquor! If it causes people to gamble more freely, well, so be it. Any patron who doesn't know that alcohol gets them drunk has no one but themself to blame.
Regarding the 10% bonus for cashing your paycheck at the casino... part of me does find that rather sketchy, but a much larger part of me wants the address.
Quote: kewljSo talk to me about immorality! Some how when the casino does it, it's just solid business practices. So while casino employees like to pass judgement on me and those of us that win, playing the game completely fairly, by the rules that the casino itself set up, I can only hope that some day a greater authority will pass judgement on this industry and those that work for them. And yes, employees are just as guilty as the industry they work for. It's NOT a case of just doing one's job. Not when you KNOW what you are doing is wrong. If that were the case, hitmen would not be guilty of anything. Casino employees are enablers, by definition. No different that a drug dealer, in my book.
Drug dealers ought to be valued members of society, and this is shown in the complete mess we've made of psychiatry, making up the most absurd pathologies specifically to get drugs into the hands of eager consumers. Psychiatry as we know it should have been buried long ago, but for the prohibitionist mindset (as well as the allegedly hostile actions of their [supposedly] unwitting paladins, the Church of Scientology). Regardless, the point is that drug dealers and casinos alike, unlike AP, provide a service that is of value to some, even as it can be harmful to... well, the same.
Quote: 24BingoI have never worked for a casino (unless being a winning poker player counts), and as far as I know neither has bigfoot66. I do know what percentages are.
Although I did use a quote from your post, to initiate my comments, I didn't mean to imply that you were a casino employee, so I apologize for that. Your attitude is much the same as many casino employees on this site, though.
Quote: 24BingoIt is very clear from context that "parasite" was referring specifically to those who make a living off it exclusively, not because of the immorality of the act itself, but its lack of quid pro quo.
Let me say this about this lack of “quid pro quo” and this judgment that AP's are takers, giving nothing to society that our wizard started in another thread. To those making this claim and judging those of us that are AP's, and I am not specifically referring to you 24Bingo, let me ask this: Have you ever spent even a buck on the multi-million dollar lottery type games. If so, you not only desire, but have tried to be in the same boat, so stop being such hypocrites. I often feel like these “oh he's an AP and gives noting to society” comments are fueled by jealousy. I suspect most of these claimants would like nothing more to support themselves in this manner, but just don't have the guts to do so. But if their ticket hits and ship comes in, they will have no problem joining the 'non-contributing to society' club. lol
Quote: 24Bingo"Con" or "swindle" is not necessarily a value judgment, but an apt descriptor of making money by exploiting a mutual understanding.
This is complete non-sense. I have no mutual understanding with anyone to not think and make my own decisions. Are we all to be followers?
Quote: 24BingoAh, the old "using my brain" line. A monkey could keep a count. A monkey could bet the count if it weren't for the little cat-and-mouse antics that go on.
This is just plain offensive, as no doubt it was meant to be. I never claimed to be all that smart. I myself am a high school grad that had no opportunity to go to college and quite frankly I struggled to get through high school for lack of interest. As far as AP's go I am sure I am near the bottom of the barrel, relying mostly on the simplest methods of card counting. While card counting is not rocket science, there is a little more to it that that. It takes a little bit more than that to be a long-term successful player.
Quote: 24BingoHolecarding and warped roulette don't even require that much thought. You're not using your brain half as much as your spleen.
I don't engage in these methods. I did employ some holecarding techniques a couple years ago, before deciding that I did not care for winning that way. I no longer seek out such opportunities. If I happen to see the dealers hole card through normal play, so be it. I am not going to pretend I didn't, but again, I don't seek, nor do anything special to seek such an advantage. I, personally resent when people lump card counter in with cheats or in the case of holecarding, I won't go as far as to label cheats, but it certainly is a grey area.
Quote: kewljLet me say this about this lack of “quid pro quo” and this judgment that AP's are takers, giving nothing to society that our wizard started in another thread. To those making this claim and judging those of us that are AP's, and I am not specifically referring to you 24Bingo, let me ask this: Have you ever spent even a buck on the multi-million dollar lottery type games. If so, you not only desire, but have tried to be in the same boat, so stop being such hypocrites.
"Games need winners as much as they need losers," I'm tempted to say. And that's not really false. But no, a lottery winner, or hell, a big winner in a casino, although his windfall is worth more to others than an AP's income, is almost as much a parasite. That's not really a value judgment so much as a simple fact: your source of income has no direct effect on others, not even the intangible effect of a game that characterizes the income of casinos or other APs, but to deprive another of their income.
Quote: kewljI often feel like these “oh he's an AP and gives noting to society” comments are fueled by jealousy. I suspect most of these claimants would like nothing more to support themselves in this manner, but just don't have the guts to do so.
If you say so. I'll be in the poker room, actually using my brain rather than trying to outplay a two-line algorithm. Not much better morally, if it ever becomes my sole source of income, but at least there the money financing the game and the money I'm playing for aren't one and the same.
Quote: kewljBut if their ticket hits and ship comes in, they will have no problem joining the 'non-contributing to society' club. lol
Without a doubt. Sure, most of us would put that money to work somehow, but it has to be admitted, as has been said several times in this thread, what matters is that the initial money was earned for essentially nothing. No one here is claiming to be perfect. The difference is (in addition to the fact that the rules in this case would be understood and followed by all parties) the recognition that the money was not earned, and thus gratitude rather than the self-satisfaction expressed throughout this thread and others. I've gotten a lot of things I hadn't earned, and even barring AP, I'll bet so have you, and to varying degrees, so has almost everyone. I was grateful for them, and I tried to make the best of them, but I didn't pretend I deserved them.
Quote: bigfoot66You totally understand the point we are making and you keep disagreeing just to piss me off!!! And I keep falling for it! I keep getting invested emotionally in trying to argue with you even though I know you have zero interest in debating on fair terms, accurately characterizing my position, or exhibiting the smallest degree of intellectual honesty.
LOL, that's why I responded the way I did to EB back a couple pages. Say what you have to say and move on, everyone else will get the point you're trying to make and agree or disagree, but I think EB just likes the clickity-clack sound his keyboard makes.
Life is too short for me to read these epic posts.
I am interested in what you have to say but do you really need to write a book about it?
Your moral code may be as such that you consider counting a con or a swindle,
But there is not one single jurisdiction in the US that agrees with you.
As far as the topic of creating value goes, the casino may create entertainment value for some
But their profits far exceed any entertainment value they create.
Any casino has the means to stop counters at any time.
Even they know it is a cost of doing business
Quote: 24Bingo
So in short, what you're missing is: they can.
Yup, of the encyclopedia entry you just posted, this
is all I'm responding to because I've already addressed
the rest elsewhere.
What you're missing is they DON'T. Its a fact that most,
and I mean most, people keep playing till their BR for
the day is gone. Why? Because its grinning ear to ear
fun and entertaining as hell? They do it because they're
chasing their losses because they really think they can
win. Some of them even understand its futile, but they
do it anyway. Most have heard rumors that you can't
really get ahead and stay ahead, but nobody believes
it applies to them.
Every pro I've ever read who's asked to give advice
in general to gamblers, always says first and foremost,
never chase your losses. Thats because they understand
whats going on and the futility of doing that. Most
players don't understand it at all. I'll say it again, quit
judging the knowledge of players on what you yourself
know about a casino. They are mostly clueless about how
it works or even the game they're playing.
Quote: EvenBobWhat you're missing is they DON'T. Its a fact that most,
and I mean most, people keep playing till their BR for
the day is gone. Why? Because its grinning ear to ear
fun and entertaining as hell? They do it because they're
chasing their losses because they really think they can
win. Some of them even understand its futile, but they
do it anyway. Most have heard rumors that you can't
really get ahead and stay ahead, but nobody believes
it applies to them.
I don't think this is ignorance, but a well-known flaw in the human psyche. Once upon a time, when the human race as a whole was poorer, there was no such thing as "further down" - once you lost something, you were as good as dead if you couldn't recoup your losses, so you gave it all you had. We never got out of that habit, and now we throw good money after bad, even when we know that's what we're doing, in the casino and elsewhere. It's not that they're ignorant of the fact that they're almost certainly only digging themselves deeper, but that they're driven by something more primal, something that's far from exclusive to gamblers. They know it's more likely that they'll lose than win (although they may not know how likely, or care), and they know they're no worse off now than if they'd never had that money to begin with, but they also know that they can, with luck, get back ahead if they stay, and can't if they leave, and due to that instinct that's all that matters. Is it predatory to profit from this drive? Yes. Is it deceptive? Not really.
(And, of course, many of them really did set aside that money for a day out.)
Quote: 24BingoI don't think this is ignorance, but a well-known flaw in the human psyche.
I think its more that people really don't understand
the games they play in the casino. Its like throwing
your money out the car window. You only do it once,
because you learn that its not going to magically come
back to you. Players don't learn that lesson in gambling
very well, they throw their money into the casino lock
box and think its somehow going to come back to
them if they just keep throwing more money at it.
Quote: EvenBobI think its more that people really don't understand
the games they play in the casino. Its like throwing
your money out the car window. You only do it once,
because you learn that its not going to magically come
back to you. Players don't learn that lesson in gambling
very well, they throw their money into the casino lock
box and think its somehow going to come back to
them if they just keep throwing more money at it.
That's because sometimes it does.
Quote: AcesAndEightsThat's because sometimes it does.
Exactly! But it overwhelmingly usually doesn't. My
wife is the queen of chasing losses, all she remembers
is the few times its worked and she forgets the thousands
its cost her when it didn't. Its a very bad habit and one
the casino encourages whole heartedly.
.."you know you’re creating value when you can see tangible positive changes in the world.."
Some people think being an AP is a worthless job
because it creates nothing of value in the world.
I got into another argument today with somebody who
says casinos are worthless because they bring nothing
of value to the world. When I pointed out they employ
hundreds and sometimes thousands of people, he said
that doesn't count. When I pointed out amusement parks
create nothing of value by his standards, he said they
bring entertainment and enjoyment to people.
And casinos don't? Of course they do, people go on vacation
where there are casinos, if casinos brought no entertainment
they would go elsewhere.
