Juyemura
Juyemura
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September 5th, 2012 at 11:24:24 AM permalink
A friend of mine, Chris, travels to Vegas about 5 or 6 times per year. Chris is not interested in becoming an advantage player but would like to know if there is a way to get the house advantage down to 0 percent (or really close to it) while still earning comps. Most importantly, he does not want to worry about heat or getting barred or asked to leave a casino. He is there for fun and wants to just get his free room and food, see some shows, and have enjoy himself.

Chris is a black chip bettor, which can get him into the better blackjack tables with lower house edges. Is there a way to get that small house edge down to 0%?
Lottery:  A tax on people who are bad at math.
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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September 5th, 2012 at 11:49:16 AM permalink
Craps with high odds would come close (if the odds were rated). or Banking PGP (or tiles) Or BJ with a weak count and small spread. I'd maybe find a nice liberal high-limit table and try an ace-five count with a 1-3 spread.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 5th, 2012 at 11:50:37 AM permalink
A-5 just looks like you are playing basic strategy. And can whittle the edge down just a little.
teddys
teddys
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September 5th, 2012 at 11:52:07 AM permalink
Yep. Try the Ace-Five count. Explained here. On the better blackjack shoe games, you can get 0.00% (breakeven) or better with even a small 1-5 spread. No need to bet black; $25 will often get you the good rules. The best shoe games can be found at the MGM properties: Bellagio, Mirage, MGM Grand, Aria. Not bad places to play and stay. Does your friend go on the Vacations Hawaii junkets?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
FleaStiff
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September 5th, 2012 at 1:19:58 PM permalink
Quote: Juyemura

Chris is not interested in becoming an advantage player but would like to know if there is a way to get the house advantage down to 0 percent (or really close to it) while still earning comps.

As long as he avoids suddenly increasing his bets, he should be fine at any mid-scale or upscale place. He will NOT have it be zero. He will have to accept "pretty darn close".
That extra edge he wants to get it to 0.0 somewhere would require counting and bet-shifting and some risk of heat. That is the price he would pay. Better rules are usually in the high limit areas, but face it: he can play anywhere and not have to worry about being backed off if he simply sits there cheerfully, tips appropriately and plays steadily without regard to the high count or low count in the amount of his bets. Now missing a few hands as he orders drinks or chats with a pretty girl ... yeah he can do that when the count is against him, but keep his betting level the same. He can answer the call of nature at bad counts, but what casino would back him off for that as long as he was not bet shifting.

I assume from your question that he is focused on blackjack, otherwise I'd recommend high stakes craps to him.
1BB
1BB
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September 5th, 2012 at 1:48:23 PM permalink
Whatever your game your friend chooses he should play as few decisions per hour as possible. For example if blackjack is his game of choice he should seek out full tables preferably with complicated side bets. This doesn't change the house edge but it will lessen the hourly loss. His 50 hands per hour should yield the same comps as someone playing a comparable game at 100 hands per hour.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
kulin
kulin
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September 5th, 2012 at 3:06:10 PM permalink
I don't mean to come off sounding like a snob but 0.28% house edge on S17 at MGM casinos is pretty close to 0. If he plays at a full table for 8 hours and doesn't tip, over a lifetime, it will cost him around 100 dollars a day. He should be able to easily get more than that in low cost comps at the casino, such as a room. By the way, trying to play at 0% and get comps is still AP.

If he is going to change his bet when it is advantageous to do so based on the dealt cards, I would think he would run a risk (however small) of being backed off. For the difference of a theoretical few hundred dollars, is it really worth getting backed off at your choice of casinos? Variance should overcome any house edge if he is playing BS only a few times a year (in the sense that he wont end up at $0 won/lost no matter what the house edge is).

I think there are only two people who should count (from a players perspective, not casinos obviously). One is players who are trying to make a living off AP and put in the hours and the work beyond the simple process of counting, including disguising bets and spreading their play strategically. The other is players who think the challenge and risk are fun and would count even if it was a $1 game just to see if they can get away with it.
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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September 5th, 2012 at 3:10:16 PM permalink
Quote: kulin

I don't mean to come off sounding like a snob but 0.28% house edge on S17 at MGM casinos is pretty close to 0. If he plays at a full table for 8 hours and doesn't tip, it will cost him around 100 dollars a day. He should be able to easily get more than that in low cost comps at the casino, such as a room.


MGM properties are even stingier with the comps than Harrah's properties. Especially when it comes to rooms. Now, I haven't played 8 hours of black-chip play at one of their S17 blackjack tables, and it seems reasonable that you could get a free room out of that. But as you said, the theo loss is only about a hundred bucks, and "in theory" the casino is only going to comp a percentage of that. I doubt he would get backed off for spreading 1-5. In fact I'm going to try a similar strategy at a Harrah's property on my next visit except with green chips. Spread 1-5, get some points in, keep the free rooms coming. It'll have to be a H17 game, but as long as it's 3:2 I'll survive.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
LonesomeGambler
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98Clubs
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September 5th, 2012 at 7:52:03 PM permalink
Ace-5 at a S17 Table: Bet 1-4 at $25, Do not raise a push or a loss... only after a win. You'll do fine.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Juyemura
Juyemura
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September 5th, 2012 at 7:59:48 PM permalink
Thanks for the suggestions. I may have to look at the Ace-5 strategy for myself!
Lottery:  A tax on people who are bad at math.
ewjones080
ewjones080
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September 5th, 2012 at 11:16:18 PM permalink
Wow, A-5 is way simpler than I thought. I tried a speed count once, buy you still had to keep track of ALL the face cards, along with the number of hands. I've never tried Hi-Low but know that I wouldn't be capable without a ton of practice. I felt I kept good track of the count with speed, but wasn't sure of the betting spread I needed, along with when to actually press the bet. But A-5, shit, sounds way too easy.

However, there are no good games to play near me, and I won't be taking a trip to Vegas any time soon. Now I'm wondering how bad rules effects the players advantage. What if: Dealer hits S17, no surrender, split aces recieve one card only, split up to four hands and double after splits allowed. Now if I did 1-8 spread, just the Soft 17 would cut the house edge down to .08%, with the not resplitting aces erase the rest of the player ADV?

What about doing 1-32 spread?
MJS
MJS
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May 15th, 2013 at 1:20:18 PM permalink
Re. the Ace/Five Strategy post on Wizard's site:

Quote: Wizard

This strategy was designed to be most effective on a six- or eight-deck game.



If you can find a 2 deck game with liberal rules* (i.e., 50.255 house edge), then wouldn't this still be better than six-deck game with equally liberal rules** (i.e., 50.285 house edge) for Ace/Five?

Thanks!

* e.g., decent penetration, BJ pays 3 to 2, Dealer stands on soft 17, Double after split allowed, Resplit up to 4 hands, but Re-splitting aces NOT allowed - about a 50.255 house edge)

** e.g., above 2dk rules, plus Late Surrender and Re-splitting aces allowed - about 50.285 house edge)
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