texasplumr
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August 9th, 2012 at 12:42:28 PM permalink
I've seen different versions on the origin of the game. But I can't find any information on just why it is so popular among Asian gamblers. Does anybody have any idea?

Just curious.
Stupid is a choice
dealerwins
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August 9th, 2012 at 12:47:08 PM permalink
Quote: texasplumr

I've seen different versions on the origin of the game. But I can't find any information on just why it is so popular among Asian gamblers. Does anybody have any idea?

Just curious.



I don't understand the appeal of it either. Its like an elaborate coin toss really!!
odiousgambit
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August 9th, 2012 at 12:48:14 PM permalink
Seems like someone said it really was the James Bond movie that showed the suave and debonair character playing the game.

I was expecting to hear ancient Asian origins, but the game came from France it seems.

So, maybe so.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
EvenBob
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August 9th, 2012 at 12:48:50 PM permalink
Probably has something to do with Macau being a
Portuguese territory, and bac originating in France
and Italy. The French had a big influence in SE Asia,
remember. That whole part of the world was called
French-Indochina in the late 1800's. Thats where
Asia got bac from.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
texasplumr
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August 9th, 2012 at 12:51:43 PM permalink
Yeah, I do remember that. Sadly.
Stupid is a choice
DJTeddyBear
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August 9th, 2012 at 1:00:19 PM permalink
Just a W.A.G.:

Asians think differently than us. Not only are they very good with numbers, they perceived things differently and can pick out patterns more easily. Or that's what they are hoping for by taking all those notes.

FWIW: I think this is due to their languages being symbols for complete words and not using alphabets.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
EvenBob
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August 9th, 2012 at 1:13:18 PM permalink
I remember reading one the big casinos in Macau has
100 BJ tables and 800 bac tables. 800! Can you imagine?
At any given time 600 are open and 400 are being played.
Many times the 200 dealers at the empty tables don't
get a single player for the whole shift. Why doesn't the
casino close those 200 tables, you say. If they did, there
would be 300 active tables and 100 empty. Its an Asian
strategy, for some reason the empty tables are very important,
as important as the ones they're playing at.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
HeartsOnRiver
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August 9th, 2012 at 1:21:08 PM permalink
I think because we've been playing this game for so long that it's like in our blood. I can't remember the 1st time I played it but it was when I was about 4-5 years old, played with family, relatives, neighbors in Lunar New Year 1st-5th day. (On the 1st day of Lunar New Year, we don't gamble with neighbors). I call it "Bài cào" LOL
I dream a million dreams, only one i wish comes true. You see, that wish, with all my soul, is just to be with you.
AcesAndEights
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August 9th, 2012 at 4:28:47 PM permalink
Quote: dealerwins

I don't understand the appeal of it either. Its like an elaborate coin toss really!!


Pretty much any casino game with even money bets is an "elaborate coin toss." Craps and blackjack fall into this same category.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
thecesspit
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August 9th, 2012 at 4:32:42 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Pretty much any casino game with even money bets is an "elaborate coin toss." Craps and blackjack fall into this same category.



I wouldn't put Blackjack in that category. You don't even win close to 50% of the bets, and the breakeven comes from Blackjacks, splitting and doubling.

Only the line bet in Craps is a coin toss. The odds, place and all the rest are really more than a 50/50 bet.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
EvenBob
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August 9th, 2012 at 4:42:43 PM permalink
Quote: dealerwins

I don't understand the appeal of it either.



Bac to Asian's is a soap
opera. Its a play that you act out, with rules to
follow. If the big player bets banker, its bad
form for you to bet player. In real bac, the
big player gets to make a production out of
bending and mutilating the card. If he wins,
he has to do so emotionlessly, like he expected
it. If he loses, he acts very suprised, like its a
shock. Never anger, just puzzlement that he
could have been wrong.

Mini bac doesn't let you bend the card, but the
rest of the drama is still there. And there's never
a number 4 chair because 4 is very bad luck to
the Chinese.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
ahiromu
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August 9th, 2012 at 4:44:04 PM permalink
Is Baccarat as popular with Japanese and Koreans? I have over a dozen Japanese (American) relatives who gamble, none of which play Baccarat. It's almost entirely Blackjack and Video Poker (My craps gene must come from the white in me).

In addition I have a lot of Korean (American) friends whose parents are big time gamblers. Not a single Baccarat player there. Am I in a unique situation, or is Baccarat more of just a Chinese thing?
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
EvenBob
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August 9th, 2012 at 4:48:09 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

Am I in a unique situation, or is Baccarat more of just a Chinese thing?



Its mostly SE China, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, the
countries in SE Asia where the French had the
most impact. Not that the French had a big
impact on all of China, but they did in the Macao
region.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
heather
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August 9th, 2012 at 6:12:26 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Mini bac doesn't let you bend the card, but the
rest of the drama is still there. And there's never
a number 4 chair because 4 is very bad luck to
the Chinese.



It's like "seven" at a Craps table; you don't say "four" out loud or refer to the fact that the seat numbers skip from three to five. Same thing with Sic bo (where you can really make people uncomfortable by betting on four).

Mini-Bacc plays a lot faster than other forms. I think I've seen 150 hands/hour quoted. Part of what I really like about Baccarat is the slow pace (like 15-25 hands/hour). Midi is somewhere in between depending on how the game works where you're playing. Some midi games let you bend the cards, some don't, some do the full shuffle, some don't, etc. What I've heard about (and seen pictures of) most frequently in East Asian casinos is either midi or something in between midi and mini-Bacc.
andysif
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August 9th, 2012 at 6:53:24 PM permalink
1. They think is "fair", in that you can either bet banker or player and when its a tie, you get your money back.
(Unlike Sic-bo, when the trips show up you lose no matter you are betting big or small. Or BJ, where you get to act first, or other games...)

2. They think you can find patterns.

3. They play betting systems like various versions of martingale.

4. They like the suspense of slow playing / peeking at the cards.
FleaStiff
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August 9th, 2012 at 8:33:40 PM permalink
Quote: texasplumr

I've seen different versions on the origin of the game.

Any of them have to do with being the mathematical inverse of a strategy for blackjack?
> But I can't find any information on just why it is so popular among Asian gamblers.
Perhaps because so little else is offered?

Perhaps because its simply a trend? After all, Blackjack was for a while a game for Blacks at least in NY it was.
In NYC's Upper East Side, it was all backgammon for awhile and it was backgammon and bridge in New England girl's dormitories.

What about all the different Pokers? Why is Chinese Poker so popular?
Juyemura
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August 9th, 2012 at 8:33:54 PM permalink
Personally, I enjoy the slow pace of the full size baccarat tables. And the food in the high limit rooms! Baccarat is also great for people watching.
Lottery:  A tax on people who are bad at math.
pacomartin
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August 9th, 2012 at 9:45:47 PM permalink
Quote: HeartsOnRiver

I think because we've been playing this game for so long that it's like in our blood. I can't remember the 1st time I played it but it was when I was about 4-5 years old, played with family, relatives, neighbors in Lunar New Year 1st-5th day. (On the 1st day of Lunar New Year, we don't gamble with neighbors). I call it "Bài cào" LOL



I think that any explanation is a guess. You can say what you want about "fate", but it would apply equally well to any other casino game. The casinos would be happy to let you tear up the blackjack playing cards, if you were playing $1000 a hand.

People of all cultures regularly adopt something from another culture, and then treasure it forever. Tea did not originate in Britain, but they now treat it as a cultural icon.

When Philips and Sony began collaborating on the development of the compact disc, Philips produced an 11.5cm, 14-bit prototype that held 60 minutes worth of music thinking that was longer than virtually any LP in existence. The Japanese CEO's insisted on a 12cm, 16-bit format that offered 74 minutes worth of music. The Japanese executives could not bear the thought that a CD would not be long enough to play the piece of music that is nearly sacred in Japan. You guessed it, Beethoven's 9th Symphony, which is frequently sung at Christmas in a mass "sing along", where people carefully master the difficult pronunciation. A huge percentage of Americans have German ancestry, but very few non-professionals can correctly pronounce the Ode to Joy.
Paradigm
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August 9th, 2012 at 10:17:14 PM permalink
Quote: andysif

1. They think is "fair", in that you can either bet banker or player



I think this is significant in that any hand could have been a winner if the player had just picked the right side of the bet.

This can't be said of BJ or any pay table/play against the dealer type games. Some hands you are just going to lose in those games no matter what decisions you make.

Also, in Bacc you have just over a 1% HE game that requires no thinking or strategy decisions. The equivalent "American" game is Roulette from a "non thinking, no strategy" simple game standpoint.....of course in American Roulette that non-strategy can't screw it up type game comes with a 5.26% HE.

I happen to watch some baccarat last night, table was full of asians and they were talking in Chinese (I believe). The players took a long time to make their decisions and some would wait right up until the dealer said time was up and then quickly plopped down their stacks of black and green chips (it was only a $10 min table). It was ugly to see everyone bet Banker and then have the Player hand win. The stacks of black and green chips going the wrong way was painful at times.....but then the Banker would win and the chip tide would flow out.

It was interesting to see the dedication to the Banker side of the bet.....I think the HE is only different by .15% between the two sides or $0.75 per $500 wager....that seems awfully small when you are supposedly looking for trends or patterns. I would tend to jump to the Player side more than the players did last night, particularly after a string of 3-4 Player hands. The cards have no memory and there are no real patterns that matter, but there sure is a loyalty to the Banker side, almost like betting Player is similar to betting the Don't in Craps.....interesting stuff for Westerners to try and understand.
EvenBob
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August 9th, 2012 at 10:27:05 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

The players took a long time to make their decisions and some would wait right up until the dealer said time was up .



Thats part of the soap opera, the agony over where
to bet. And they love banker because it has a slight
edge. To bet on banker and lose is a humiliation,
demanding much contriteness and disbelief on the
big bettors part. To bet player when everyone is
betting banker is a great insult to the big bettor.
If you win, no one will look at you, they hate you,
you jinxed everything.

I'm not joking.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
pacomartin
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August 9th, 2012 at 10:42:46 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

To bet player when everyone is betting banker is a great insult to the big bettor.
If you win, no one will look at you, they hate you, you jinxed everything.

I'm not joking.



When I look at the literature from Macao they have max limits on the table, not on the individual better. I wonder how the table decides who will take the contrary bet if people want to bet more? In this case, are you still a jinx?

I am not aware of most people at a craps table who consider DON'T betters a jinx (unless they are betting against themselves when throwing the dice). They just don't want you celebrating too loudly if everyone elsel lost.
EvenBob
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August 9th, 2012 at 10:58:14 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I wonder how the table decides who will take the contrary bet



It seems to be an honor thing. Its more important to
honor the big bettor, even if he loses, than to be the
rogue winner. There's deep stuff going on there. Its
a system thats taken thousands of years to delelop.
Not the game, thats very new.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
98Clubs
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August 9th, 2012 at 11:08:51 PM permalink
Low house edge, coin-toss, BIG bets allowed. PaiGow, and the Poker version have the same low-variance appeal.
And I do like the honor of the big-bet. What I've come to dis-like about PGP has been the House Way placed on all Banker Bets.
When I first started playing in the 80's, no one (Binion's, Ceaser's, and AC in general for me) did this. By the late 90's Foxwoods started this annoying trend.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Paradigm
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August 9th, 2012 at 11:20:18 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

To bet player when everyone is
betting banker is a great insult to the big bettor.
If you win, no one will look at you, they hate you,
you jinxed everything.

I'm not joking.



How would you rate the "hate level" as compared to a player that wins on the "Don't" in Craps? Winning "Don't" players need to keep their heads down at the dice table as well.

I didn't witness too much hate at the table I observed last night and there was the occasional lone Player bet out there. They did all seem to know each other and the table was having a good time.....I wonder why there isn't some competitive juices flowing there when players take opposite sides and then one wins while the other loses. You know western players would be talking trash to one another. It is a cultural thing for sure.
andysif
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August 10th, 2012 at 12:16:09 AM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

... but there sure is a loyalty to the Banker side, almost like betting Player is similar to betting the Don't in Craps.....interesting stuff for Westerners to try and understand.



I can assure you there is absolutely no such thing. They just look for patterns. Banker and Player are equally good.

As for the last minute bet, it's because they don't want to become "reference" for other people. There is a strategy amongst Asians known as "the lantern", meaning that they would look for a particularly unlucky guy and bet the opposite. Obviously, it is not a pleasure to be identified as "the lantern", so many people tend to bet at the last moment.
Paradigm
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August 10th, 2012 at 12:24:42 AM permalink
Good stuff Andy, thanks for sharing. There seemed to be some loyalty last night to Banker, but that sounds like it was a one off type situation. I wouldn't think the minor HE differential would really make a difference and it sounds like the patterns are the key.
MonkeyMonkey
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August 10th, 2012 at 1:05:07 AM permalink
Quote: heather


Mini-Bacc plays a lot faster than other forms. I think I've seen 150 hands/hour quoted.



That's not been my experience. I've seen an 8 deck shoe last 2-3 hours. It's because of what others have been saying: the waiting for the big bettor to decide and they seem to relish the drama of making everyone wait.
HeartsOnRiver
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August 10th, 2012 at 4:52:23 AM permalink
Quote: andysif

I can assure you there is absolutely no such thing. They just look for patterns. Banker and Player are equally good.

As for the last minute bet, it's because they don't want to become "reference" for other people. There is a strategy amongst Asians known as "the lantern", meaning that they would look for a particularly unlucky guy and bet the opposite. Obviously, it is not a pleasure to be identified as "the lantern", so many people tend to bet at the last moment.


True. And they also want to wait for the lucky guy, the big bettor to bet first, if they also like that side, they would follow that guy. If not, they would skip that hand or bet small on that one.

There's also a culture thing on the Baccarat table: we're all family, we're here to take the House's money, not from fellow players (even though time to time, they bet on different sides). If my "brother" bet big on the Banker and I already have my Player bet out there BEFORE him, I would take it down. Because I want to see him win the big bet, even I win that hand, I wouldn't feel good because my friend lose a big bet. Sometimes you know they're gonna bet Banker on the next hand, you like Player, and you don't want to jinx things up, you may want to hurry up and bet the Player first before them, so that way they're not gonna say anything to you when you win.

They really hate people who don't bet until the last second, saying "wait, wait...", bet on the opposite side of the whole table, and win. Oh yeah, that guy's gonna get the stink eyes every time he bets now.

It's kinda funny. After a hand, nobody wants to bet, thinking for 5 minutes, and when the dealer says "No more bets", then all the money drop on the circles at the same time.
And there's a lot of superstitious thinking among Asian players. Too much to list them all (eg. don't touch my shoulder, my head, don't reach over my shoulder to place your bets all the time...).
I dream a million dreams, only one i wish comes true. You see, that wish, with all my soul, is just to be with you.
texasplumr
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August 10th, 2012 at 6:31:35 AM permalink
Quote: HeartsOnRiver

True. And they also want to wait for the lucky guy, the big bettor to bet first, if they also like that side, they would follow that guy. If not, they would skip that hand or bet small on that one.

There's also a culture thing on the Baccarat table: we're all family, we're here to take the House's money, not from fellow players (even though time to time, they bet on different sides). If my "brother" bet big on the Banker and I already have my Player bet out there BEFORE him, I would take it down. Because I want to see him win the big bet, even I win that hand, I wouldn't feel good because my friend lose a big bet. Sometimes you know they're gonna bet Banker on the next hand, you like Player, and you don't want to jinx things up, you may want to hurry up and bet the Player first before them, so that way they're not gonna say anything to you when you win.

They really hate people who don't bet until the last second, saying "wait, wait...", bet on the opposite side of the whole table, and win. Oh yeah, that guy's gonna get the stink eyes every time he bets now.

It's kinda funny. After a hand, nobody wants to bet, thinking for 5 minutes, and when the dealer says "No more bets", then all the money drop on the circles at the same time.
And there's a lot of superstitious thinking among Asian players. Too much to list them all (eg. don't touch my shoulder, my head, don't reach over my shoulder to place your bets all the time...).



Wow, amazing stuff to this Texan of Irish decent. The whole soap opera thing I've noticed for years but now the show makes much more sense.
Stupid is a choice
EvenBob
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August 10th, 2012 at 10:37:45 AM permalink
Quote: HeartsOnRiver

True. And they also want to wait for the lucky guy, the big bettor to bet first, ).



After he bets, they all act like they're tortured about
where to bet, when they know fully well that they'll
bet the same as the big player. It all looks quaint
until you play for awhile. Then its all a huge pain
in the ass and you want to scream at them to place
THE FRICKIN BET!

I like to bet right away, before the big player. They
really hate this and they'll hate you for doing it. If
they could they would bar all non Asians from the
game, they would.

What you see a lot of is some woman who doesn't
have on $20 worth of clothes, is the big player. She
has a purse in her lap bursting with hundred dollar
bills she collected from the local business owners
in the city and she's their designated player. There
are usually a couple of non players behind her, watching
to make sure the money is well spent and she's not
ripping anybody off. As far as I can tell, these people
never win much. For all their drama, most Asians
are pretty bad bac players.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Doc
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August 10th, 2012 at 11:56:19 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

... For all their drama, most Asians
are pretty bad bac players.


Other than the drama, what makes for a "bad" bac player? Isn't that something like calling "tails" too often on a coin flip?
EvenBob
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August 10th, 2012 at 12:18:53 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

Other than the drama, what makes for a "bad" bac player? Isn't that something like calling "tails" too often on a coin flip?



For all the drama, they have few winning sessions. Many
of the big players bet wildly, way over the constraints of
their BR. I see one them bet $100, lose, then bet $300,
lose. then bet $700 and win. Then bet $400, lose, bet
$600, lose, bet $1000, lose. Take a fake cell call and go
storming off never to return. My mouth hangs open in
disbelief when this happens, I never get used to it.

I'm convinced it a macho thing with the men. The other
Asian's with have a sharp intake of breath when the bets
get real brazen and the big players feed off the drama.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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July 3rd, 2013 at 4:34:48 PM permalink
How does the pit spot consistent winners in bac?
These guys bet a lot and win and lose so much,
and many of them rathole so many green and
black chips, how could the pit know where they
are as far as win loss goes.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
teliot
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July 17th, 2013 at 8:41:09 AM permalink
Forgive my resurrecting an ancient thread. But, why do Asians play baccarat?

This article is pretty good at answering the question.

Click here

This power point is also on target.

Click here
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
FleaStiff
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July 17th, 2013 at 9:04:05 AM permalink
Is it a team sport?
Is gambling a team sport after all?
People enjoyed it when Benny Binion greeted them by name, but was that the purpose of the trip? Was there a social goal?
Was it to be "accepted amongst men" such as at a barber shop or at a gentlemen's club?
You made money and you paid off your markers... was that a social event or merely what was expected of all?
I still see gambling as largely private but with certain public mandates of behavior but certainly not as some sort of team sport.


I've taken some minor heat for playing The Don'ts at a craps game but its never been anything to really notice much less bother about.
One young girl did object to my staying on the don'ts when I was the shooter but as you might expect this took place at Terribles so I don't really care much what she or anyone else at the table felt about it.

As for team baccarat... never noticed it. Even after chattering a mile a minute in some foreign language the other players often wind up on different bets so what is so wrong.

Yes, often they do play follow the chip leader but not always.

I sometimes do the same thing too, much to my shame and disgrace.
egalite
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July 17th, 2013 at 9:19:37 AM permalink
Illusory correlations: Individuals believe that events they expect to be correlated, due to previous experience or perceptions, have been
correlated in current experience, even when they have not been!!!

Nice phrase that, "Illusory correlation".

BBB
P
BB
P
BB
P now bet bank


I could think of one particular person who needs to read that second link.
djatc
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July 17th, 2013 at 9:36:21 AM permalink
I am Asian.

When I first played bac I thought it was dumb, but then I got into it for a little while. Now I can't stand the game. Midi bac had me making the biggest single bets in all of my gambling. Something about holding the cards and peeking at it slowly for a natural.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
100xOdds
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July 17th, 2013 at 11:05:04 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

Forgive my resurrecting an ancient thread. But, why do Asians play baccarat?

This article is pretty good at answering the question.

Click here

This power point is also on target.

Click here



wow.. the wiz is quoted in that powerpoint (page 8):
http://www.easg.org/media/file/loutraki2012/pres_pdf_loutraki_2012/thursday_20_september_2012/1345-1545/parallel_1/3_samuel_huang.pdf
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
bigfoot66
bigfoot66
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Joined: Feb 5, 2010
July 17th, 2013 at 11:18:49 AM permalink
Quote: djatc

I am Asian.

When I first played bac I thought it was dumb, but then I got into it for a little while. Now I can't stand the game. Midi bac had me making the biggest single bets in all of my gambling. Something about holding the cards and peeking at it slowly for a natural.



Me too. Not the asian part, but the making big single bets and loving bending the cards.
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hoangle1979
hoangle1979
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Joined: Sep 10, 2016
September 11th, 2016 at 10:17:24 PM permalink
hoangle1979]this is My system: 1-1-1-2-2-4-4-8-8 = 31 units[
billionaireben
billionaireben
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Joined: Jun 29, 2011
September 14th, 2016 at 9:50:00 PM permalink
It can be a fast paced game that can make a lot of money in a short time. I played at a place with good blackjack, but I wasn't winning so I switched to baccarat and quickly won it back. May have helped camouflage my other blackjack play since it's a sweaty joint. I'm up longterm for baccarat, but I know a guy who has lost $500k mostly at baccarat. I consider it a good game for psychics, since you don't have to bet every hand and it has a low house edge. I once won 50 out of 60 wagers (but 5/6 of the big bets were losses.) You might be able to get a comped room and only bet 1/4th of the hands, but I just bet when I feel like one specific side will win. My personal opinion, it's a way to recover fast when down; not something to put a lot into. Baccarat, craps and UTH are my go-to's when down. I had $75 left and made $600 in a few minutes of baccarat. The other day, I lost $200 betting $10 a hand in full pay single deck (no positive counts hit); won it back in a few minutes at craps (plus a $7 gain, lol.) UTH is similar, I just play till I lose a bet that I expected to win.

So to recap, baccarat is a fast game with a low house edge (lower than poor strategy house edge in blackjack), can give camoflage, simple (you can stick to player or banker) and you don't have to play every hand.
Wino
Wino
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Joined: Dec 13, 2014
September 21st, 2016 at 3:27:40 AM permalink
It's interesting to see all the traditions and superstitions being followed in Baccarat just like in Chinese/Asian culture in general. Burn card, 6 of clubs...hey what does that mean? That means I should bet player because it's 6 and black and..........new dealer new tie?
Wanda Wilcox: “I can’t stand people. I hate them.” Chinaski: “Oh, yeah?” Wanda: “You hate them?” Chinaski: “No, but I seem to feel better when they’re not around.” Barfly, starring Mickey Rourke
CyrusV
CyrusV
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Joined: Aug 8, 2015
September 21st, 2016 at 5:06:46 AM permalink
Quote: Wino

I should bet player because it's 6 and black and..........new dealer new tie?

It's not tradition, it is fun. Black 6 means nothing, never heard anybody place relevance on the burn card. The expression "new dealer tie" again is only fun, usually the Asian women hoping the dealer change will produce a Tie are they generally take that side bet more often than the males.
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