Should previously banned members be allowed to continue to post under different names?

JerryLogan=>RobSinger=>JL2=>helicious=>Altut=>Virgi=>arcimedes

I'm assuming for the sake of argument that the above is a true syllogism. For what it's worth, I am 100% convinced it is. I think others are too.

The question remains, once the initial or subsequent alias is banned, should the banned member be able to continue posting under different names? There is a presumption that each new name is a new member who is a different natural person. But of course it is possible to keep creating aliases. I could be banned as teddys and keep returning as TadWaters or whomever and keep posting the same things; I'll just claim I am a new person.

I would suggest that Jerry/Rob is not entitled to that presumption, and as long as he keeps returning and making the same posts/trolling/arguments, members should be able to flag his posts. Outrageous misbehavior calls for an extreme reaction -- even if it means "violating" certain forum conventions.

Quote: teddys

JerryLogan=>RobSinger=>JL2=>helicious=>Altut=>Virgi

I'm assuming for the sake of argument that the above is a true syllogism. For what it's worth, I am 100% convinced it is. I think others are too.

The question remains, once the initial or subsequent alias is banned, should the banned member be able to continue posting under different names? There is a presumption that each new name is a new member who is a different natural person. But of course it is possible to keep creating aliases. I could be banned as teddys and keep returning as TadWaters or whomever and keep posting the same things; I'll just claim I am a new person.

I would suggest that Jerry/Rob is not entitled to that presumption, and as long as he keeps returning and making the same posts/trolling/arguments, members should be able to flag his posts. Outrageous misbehavior calls for an extreme reaction -- even if it means "violating" certain forum conventions.

Seconded. I really do think this is a case where two wrongs make a right. Flagging due to identity is not acceptable, but neither is circumventing a lifetime ban in this manner. I think that the (ridiculously) obvious circumvention justifies the flagging.

*edit* It looks like altut is still serving his "3 day" ban that expired on the 4/28. Did I miss something there?
*re-edit* I assume that's why Virgi was gifted to us on the 29th...

OMG !!!!!!!! Dont even get me started on this subject.

Ken

Quote: Virgi

You just don't get it in much the same way as that aberration Nareed doesn't: I'm none of those people, and I strongly believe you're wrong on most or all of your other guesses up there also. If this place is where some of you people get your social life then no wonder you don't have religion.

Admin, Can we get a ban now please?

Please be wise and stay away for good this time. Seventh time's a charm.

Quote: Virgi

You just don't get it in much the same way as Nareed doesn't: I'm none of those people, and I strongly believe you're wrong on most or all of your other guesses up there also. If this place is where some of you people get your social life then no wonder you don't have religion.

Of course you aren't. You just happen to act exactly like them. And you just happen to have appeared immediately after the last of them was suspended. It's the world's biggest coincidence. But I'm sure the rest of us would see the light if we could all agree to worship Rob Singer.

*edited quote to be less offensive*

Quote: poll

Yes, they should be given the benefit of the doubt

What sort of 'doubt' ?

Doubt that you are unsure that they are the same person? Sure.

Doubt that you are unsure that they have learned their lesson? No way.

Quote: Virgi

. . . that aberration Nareed . . .

While I have no idea if Virgi is any of the JL incarnations we've seen before, I've seen enough.

Virgi is now on my blocked member list.

I happen to be a big fan of the Wizard of Vegas forum and though I don't post a lot, visit the site several times a day. The vast majority of people posting here are well educated, provide strong well supported opinions, and I respect their opinions even though I don't agree with everything they say.

Sadly, it only takes a few trolls/idiots to ruin a forum and discourage new members from staying. While I am all for allowing someone a second chance, I am not for allowing someone a 5th, 6th or 7th chance. Once they are banned, they should be banned for life.

Quote: teddys

I would suggest that Jerry/Rob is not entitled to that presumption, and as long as he keeps returning and making the same posts/trolling/arguments, members should be able to flag his posts. Outrageous misbehavior calls for an extreme reaction -- even if it means "violating" certain forum conventions.

There are several technical solutions that could be implemented, but I'm not sure if they can be easily implemented in this forum's software:
1) User reputations. Users with a too-low reputation have their posts hidden unless revealed.
2) Post reputations. Same as above, on a per-post basis.
In both cases, the UI has a +/- feature to increase or decrease reputation rather than to bust a post altogether. Users may set a minimum reputation filter on their viewed posts, so posts or users with too-low a reputation are hidden.
3) User rank. Similar to reputation but also rewards tenure "above the line". The corollary is that any user who has a negative reputation never gains rank.
4) IP blocking. This prevents new users from signing up with a banned IP address. I would recommend this as an immediate first step to combat the cycle of banning, new-users, troll, re-banning.

There are probably several others I'm not thinking of. However, in the absence of superior technical solutions, I find nothing improper about using the techniques at one's disposal to enforce the exile of an already-banned user.

Of course, Facebook provided an alternate solution to this problem a long time ago. You cannot sign up for Facebook with a pseudonym...

Quote: teddys

Quote: Virgi

You just don't get it in much the same way as that aberration Nareed doesn't: I'm none of those people, and I strongly believe you're wrong on most or all of your other guesses up there also. If this place is where some of you people get your social life then no wonder you don't have religion.

Admin, Can we get a ban now please?

Please be wise and stay away for good this time. Seventh time's a charm.

The original post seems to have been deleted or reworded, but I'll ban him anyway. The term will be indefinite, while I look into making a case for the nuclear option.

Well stated Wiz. you are definitely the man behind the curtain LOL

I think a lifetime ban should be just that.

On the other hand I don't expect, nor want, the Wizard to waste his time chasing down trolls. These types of boards are supposed to be enjoyed. If they get to be drudgery for the owners and admins, they stop being nice places to hang out. Overall we have mature members who can argue and disagree without coming down to personal attacks or even being too nasty, except against trolls from time to time.

I'm willing to let the Wizard handle such problem users as he thinks best. If he needs help or wants suggestions, I'm sure he'll ask. It's his palce and he sets the rules.

I think that part of the problem is that not everyone reads every post in the forum, and what might be obvious to some isn't even seen by others. And even when there is corroborating evidence that is posted, that too may be missed by many. For example, Virgi posted something that sounded very familiar to me, and while I wasn't able to find the post, perhaps in part because so many were deleted, (and retaining posts instead of flagging them has a lot of merit when it comes to archival purposes...), FarFromVegas did and posted it here. But anyone that skipped that thread was left in the dark.

And as much as he tries to hide it, there will always be things that point him out. In this very thread he said "I'm a lover not a fighter", which sounded somewhat familiar to me so I did a little forum search and found 2 hits in addition to the one posted today:

JL2 - I'm a lover not a fighter.

JerryLogan - I'm a lover not a fighter.

While this certainly isn't absolute proof, you will never be able to find that. As Douglas Adams said, If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands.

I like ME's suggestions, but I suspect that isn't too easy to implement. Personally, I think every IP he's ever posted from should be banned. There are a couple of potential problems with that, one being that "innocent bystanders" might find themselves banned as well. But I think the odds of that happening are extremely slim.

The other is he'll just find another open network to post from. True, but he can't do that sitting in the comfort of his home or job, at least not for too long as additional IP's get banned. And as more networks he uses get banned the more trouble it will be for him to keep it up. Right now its a no brainer for him: he gets banned, he makes up another name and keeps on posting. It would be nice to see it at least get more difficult for him, and the harder it is the less he'll be able to post which will more than likely also curb his desire to post.

Quote: PaulEWog

I like ME's suggestions, but I suspect that isn't too easy to implement. Personally, I think every IP he's ever posted from should be banned. There are a couple of potential problems with that, one being that "innocent bystanders" might find themselves banned as well. But I think the odds of that happening are extremely slim.
.

While some people may be adverse to releasing personal info, we could register the IPs we are going to be posting on, on sign up with the site.

If there's multiple ones, you post them all. If you show up posting from one that's not registered for you -- we don't have to even look at the post -- you just get suspended/banned - until you pm the wizard with an explanation, and whenever he gets around to looking at it.

If you register ones that go to an annonymizer site you get banned.

Would that work? Or would something similar work?

That would only discourage legitimate members.

For example, I tend to bring my laptop everywhere, and log in all the time.

How am I supposed to know the IP address wherever I am? Right now, I'm home, and the best IP address I can provide is 192.168.1.2 - the address my router assigned to my computer, but not the address that the outside world sees for me.

.....

Quote: gofaster87

You guys are getting to worked up over nothing. Singer and his other posting aliases dont bother me and I'm not sure why they bother you. It gives the forum character. I once asked about why everyone liked to argue with Singer and someone said its just part of the forum game. So why block or ban anyone? His insults were/are petty and shouldn't make anyone cry. He has a very different view point that I welcome to the forum. Just look how many threads have spawned about this single person, obviously he stirs up the pot and creates conversation.

I would almost agree with you. I don't think anyone has a problem with Singer/whomever normally. I think it is when he gets out of hand and starts flinging insults around. I think we just keep it as it is. Most of us who at least read many of the forums (some of us on our phones while driving, so we don't post much(gasp!)) can tell who the new sock puppet is rather quickly. Let the members flag as they see fit, and the Wiz will ban as he sees fit. That being said, I haven't flagged a single post of anyone myself. There are enough senior members on here that will do that.

As far as the technical aspects, I don't think the resources should be wasted setting up anything, unless it gets completely out of hand. I haven't seen it get to that point yet.

Quote: gofaster87

You guys are getting to worked up over nothing. Singer and his other posting aliases dont bother me and I'm not sure why they bother you. It gives the forum character. I once asked about why everyone liked to argue with Singer and someone said its just part of the forum game. So why block or ban anyone? His insults were/are petty and shouldn't make anyone cry. He has a very different view point that I welcome to the forum. Just look how many threads have spawned about this single person, obviously he stirs up the pot and creates conversation.

That's party true. I had no problem with the original Logan. He often provided a needed opposite viewpoint or humorous comment. However, he made a few too many insults and was banned. Now, the man behind the curtain appears to be a sociopathic LOON on the internet who can't stop making up alias to get around the ban. Just get him out of here for good.

Quote: Wizard

The original post seems to have been deleted or reworded, but I'll ban him anyway.

I have no way to prove it, but I knew Virgi was Jerry/Singer from about his 10th post. One giveaway is he always posts way too much for a new member. And he always takes an 'in your face' stance on almost everything. I didn't say anything because why bother, he's always outed eventually.

They give their "true identity" away pretty quickly just about every time...it is just sad the Wizard has to spend time banning them more than once.

In you didn't see it in the suspension list, I just invoked the nuclear option on virgi. I ask that his old posts be flagged for automatic removal.

Quote: RonC

...it is just sad the Wizard has to spend time banning them more than once.

In this case Virgi went right to a permanent ban, no temporary bans leading up to it.

From 20 years of experience on forums, and 10's of thousands of posts, whenever you have a huge clash of personalities, like we had with MKL and Jerry, they're almost always both troll's. The whole point of being a troll is to take over a forum, and they're very territorial about it. Its their turf, they don't want competition. Look how MKL reacted when he was last banned, he was no longer fooling anybody and he went ballistic. Jerry will eventually give up and go away when he realizes he'll always be outed.

I have found this kind of interesting over the last couple years.......the guys that slam me (any forum), insult my posts, start BS with me etc., JUST SO HAPPEN to be the SAME guys that get banned. (Hmmm)

Ken